As a Serb, I am sick and tired of explaining to Westerners that no, Croats and Bosniaks and Kosovar Albanians were not the "good guys" of the 90s wars.
But also as a Serb, I am sick and tired of the perpetual reactionary victimhood and chauvinism of Serbs regarding the wars.
No, as a communist I say FUCK NATO, but also it's a bit like being German and complaining about the Allied bombing of Germany in WW2. Nobody gives a shit. I guess people give a shit about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but I'd argue that's thanks to Japan's cultural capital being greater than the knowledge of Westerners regarding what Imperial Japan did.
Anyway, nobody was fighting to save Tito's socialism (the revisionists/opportunists already took over by that point, some of the younger ones still in politics today), nor was anybody fighting to preserve Yugoslavia. It was a chain of reactionary wars start to finish. And it could have been prevented. People died for what? Nothing.
>>2264242A DotP is when a communist party abolishes the previous bourgeois state apparatus and bourgeois institutions, and establishes full control of a new state. That's what a DotP is. The communist party is, at least in Marxsm-Leninism, the political body of the proletariat. Hence, a dictatorship of the proletariat.
A DotP does not equal socialism, no. You might be confused about that. The DotP marks the beginning of the transition to socialism.
>>2264230>nor was anybody fighting to preserve Yugoslavia. It was a chain of reactionary wars start to finish. And it could have been prevented. People died for what? Nothing.None of this is true. (Except the reactionary wars)
Read Parenti's to kill a nation. People died for american interest. Yeah, Serbs weren't innocent, but their crimes in the west were grossly exaggerated or invented.
>>2264230Serb Anon, what do you think of Boris Malagurski's documentary series
The Weight of Chains?
>>2264284What part of my comment are you disagreeing with?
>>nor was anybody fighting to preserve Yugoslavia. False. There was a strong effort to keep the FRY alive, particularly from Serbia and Milosevic.
>It was a chain of reactionary wars start to finish. There were many influential communists that were "dealt with" during and after the war.
>And it could have been prevented. This is fantasy history, and it doesn't mean much. Everything real is rational etc.
>People died for what? Nothing.People died for the balkanization project and for US economic interests. That's not "nothing".
>the Serbian nationalism that fuelled their role in the conflict was no substitute for the socialist internationalism that was the basis of the SFRY.Serbs were largely either defending against the reactionary forces or trying to keep shit together. I don't understand what this can possibly mean. The Serbian nationalism could have been something more wholesome or something? For what end?
>>2264243There were big economic problems in the 80s. Unemployment, hyperinflation, government debt, state companies losing competitive edge in the global market. I'm not knowledgeable enough to tell you about the causes though, but certainly things like the international oil crisis contributed.
However I'd argue the big trigger was Milošević overthrowing the governments of Montenegro and Kosovo in the so-called anti-bureaucratic revolution and establishing a multi-party electoral system (which led to unironic fascists in the Serbian government, see the Serbian Radical Party, founded just before the war in Croatia). The overthrow of the governments of Montenegro and Kosovo meant that Serbia in effect had more voting power; the other republics did not like this. With regards to the Kosovo war, Milošević revoked Kosovo's autonomy; the Kosovar Albanians did not like this (to keep it short, but there's more lore). In short, Milošević is an opportunist traitor that laid the groundwork for the justification for the wars and gave rise to both Serb fascist paramilitaries AND a Kosovar Albanian fascist terrorist organization. Imagine defending this guy. What a fucking turd.
>>2264236No and yes because it’s true
>>2264242No
>>2264252Yes. Not valid.
>>2264258Anarkiddie
>>2264230>Anyway, nobody was fighting to save Tito's socialismFake history JNA had elements who were planing a coup since the mid 80s like General Jaruzelski did earlier in in PRL arresting and purging traitors such as Milosevic, Kucan etc. Then reforming the collapsed SKJ into a new socialist party.
Unfortunately Admiral Branko Mamula misjudged Kadijevic as his handpicked chosen successor as he ended up being a weak willed choker easily manipulated man of inaction.
>>2264263By the time the JNA fired their first shot, it was already over. There was no "getting back" the fleeing republics, and the liberal reforms of Ante Marković meant that Tito's socialism was over too.
>>2264270>>2264284>>2264290Going to address all three at once.
<In 1989, before the fall of the Berlin Wall, Yugoslav federal Prime Minister Ante Marković went to Washington to meet with President George H. W. Bush, to negotiate a new financial aid package. In return for assistance, Yugoslavia agreed to even more sweeping economic reforms, which included a new devalued currency, another wage freeze, sharp cuts in government spending, and the elimination of socially owned, worker-managed companies.[67] The Belgrade nomenclature, with the assistance of western advisers, had laid the groundwork for Marković's mission by implementing beforehand many of the required reforms, including a major liberalization of foreign investment legislation.<In the initial stage of the Yugoslav crisis and the breakup of Yugoslavia at the end of the Cold War the United States were strong advocates of Yugoslav integrity. At the same time, Washington believed the crisis was an issue for Europe to resolve. Failure of the European Community and subsequently the European Union to deal with the Yugoslav Wars led to significant American involvement in the region. In this process Presidency of Bill Clinton provided security guarantees and efforts for smaller and weaker former Yugoslav republics of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Macedonia. This led to some frictions with Croatia and significant one with the Serbia and Montenegro (which US rejected to recognize as the sole successor to Socialist Yugoslavia) and Bosnian Serbs which escalated in 1995 Operation Deliberate Force and 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia and lasted all up until the overthrow of Slobodan Milošević.The US actually initially supported preserving Yugoslavia, presumably on the condition of liberal reform, which was already underway. Following the timeline of the director of Serbian intelligence becoming a CIA agent (yes, this happened unironically, and the entirety of the Serbian leadership was apparently clueless as this little factoid came out in 2009 in the middle of Jovičić's Hague trial for war crimes) it would appear the US changed its stance about a year after the first shots were fired (1992).
Yes, people died for literally nothing.
>False. There was a strong effort to keep the FRY alive, particularly from Serbia and Milosevic.Milošević is the guy that tried to undermine the balance of power between the republics and introduced fascists into the Serbian government. This is the guy that wanted to preserve Yugoslavia?
>There were many influential communists that were "dealt with" during and after the war. True! I'm not sure how that contradicts the wars being reactionary?
>This is fantasy historyNo, this is analysis.
>Serbs were largely either defending against the reactionary forces or trying to keep shit together.Read
>>2264292 then come back. ᴉuᴉlossnW tier take.
>>2264293Sorry? Are you disputing that Yugoslavia had a DotP?
>>2264327I meant during the actual wars.
>>2264279Forgot to respond to this one.
I might have watched it with my parents when I was very young, I believe it was broadcasted on TV. I don't remember much but I'm guessing it's a similar take to Parenti if not the same one. The problem with Parenti, as I've pointed out implicitly, is playing defense for Milošević (who we might as well consider an anti-communist given his collaboration with the Serbian Radical Party) and glossing over the reactionary nature of the wars to instead soapbox about the West. I mean sure, I just wrote that director of Serbian Intelligence Stanica Jovičić was working for the CIA for example, but it's like instead of seriously looking at the wars you're using them as a rhetorical tool for anti-imperialist propaganda. Make sense? It's not "wrong" necessarily, but it's, you know, feeding into the reactionary victimhood and chauvinism of Serbs instead of confronting the "ugly" truth about the responsibility of Serbs.
>>2264230>By the time the JNA fired their first shot, it was already over. There was no "getting back" the fleeing republics, and the liberal reforms of Ante Marković meant that Tito's socialism was over too.Not true the end of the line was letting Slovenian liberals secede. Kadijevic fucked everything up, he went with a limited intervention against the separatists in Slovenia instead of a full on military strike. While he was fucking around Dobrica Cosic and Slobodan Milosevic went behind his back and signed a agreement with Slovenia.
This was the end of Yugoslavia.
>>2264368You forgot Mladics friend Atif Dudakovic
>>2264357>it would appear the US changed its stance about a year after the first shots were fired (1992).>The United States had been engaging in economic and geostrategic intervention in Yugoslavia as early as the 1980s to facilitate the imperialist goals of protecting the profit-making interests of private, US-based commercial banks while further opening Yugoslavia to foreign investment.>https://link.springer.com/referenceworkentry/10.1007/978-3-319-91206-6_52-1While what you say is true, that does not mean the US wasn't interested in severely weakening the country and opening up it's markets. IMF loans made sure of that.
>This is the guy that wanted to preserve Yugoslavia?Yep. That's the guy, for better or for worse.
>>2264431So today we have liberal Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia. etc. beholden to the IMF, beholden to NATO, the US, etc.
What did all those people die for when the same end result played out, minus Yugoslavia not dissolving? At least if the Serbs were genuine communists I could say, "they died heroically fighting the forces of capital". But I can't even say that, because the bulk of the war on the Serb side was being fought by fascist paramilitaries with aspirations for a Greater Serbia. And the JNA was compromised due to ethnic breakdown, and not long after ceased to exist.
>>2264417Wrong Croatian separatists had some random armed formations here and there but that was it. It didn't truly blow up until Brioni Agreement, JNA was focused on Slovenia and that's where it ended.
>Ukratko, sredinom 1991. godine, nakon što je Slovenija proglasila nezavisnost usledili su oružani sukobi u kojima je JNA ponižena i razbijena i u moralno-psihološkom smislu. Jednom rečju, usledio je vojno-politički debakl, koji nije rezultirao samo kolapsima u rukovođenju i komandovanju, već i padu vojnog potencijala u ruke šovinističkih struktura. Ubrzo nakon toga, JNA je i formalno prestala da postoji. U tom kontekstu, penzionisani admiral flote Branko Mamula ovako opisuje delovanje JNA u Sloveniji: „Vojno trapavo planirana i vođena operacija. Generali Kadijević, Kolšek i Adžić nisu bili na nivou zadatka, Adžić je izdavao konfuzna naređenja. Kadijević mi je u trenucima očaja rekao da je spreman da podnese ostavku i da se ubije da bi spasao čast armije. Zamislite, on kao ministar odbrane u vreme kada se planira nova operacija u Sloveniji, u kabinetu u Beogradu prima telefonske pozive ministara spoljnih poslova Nemačke i Velike Britanije.Šta on ima da razgovara sa njima? On je sa štabom Vrhovne komande morao da ode na ratno komandno mesto u Konjic, da izađe iz Beograda, jer tamo više nije bilo uslova za rad, a ne da ga svaki čas zivkaju iz vlade i ispiraju mu mozak, da mu roditelji ispod kabineta traže da se „deca vrate iz Slovenije“, da mu opozicija, ali i vlast sabotiraju mobilizaciju, da se svaki ulazak u zgrade Generalštaba i SSNO beleži i snima od strane inostranih obaveštajnih službi“. >>2264357True, people always ignore that the transition to capitalism started before the wars.
>>2264366Milosevic cocksucking. Milosevic's reform plan was internal stock sale privatization. Better than DOS but not communist.
>>2264376Isn't Malagurski a right wing conspiracy theorist now?
>>2264389Not much the JNA could do when Milosevic wanted to let Slovenia go.
>>2264398Markets and NATO friendly doesn't mean capitalism. Yugoslavia's social ownership wasn't worker ownership, it was basically just state ownership. Government still had a lot of say in things like assigning directors and it did some planning still.
>>2264401The politicians sitting in the League of Communists didn't really care for communism by that point. They didn't do much for the failing public perception of socialism and some even helped it fall. But corruption was a big thing for making people not believe the government.
>>2264417Not sure if Slovenia was weaker than Croatia, Croatia was more prepared for war I think. The war in Slovenia was basically just Slovenian Territorial Defense (which was basically like a national guard) shooting at some fresh JNA conscripts. It was over before the war in Croatia began.
>>2264404>>2264428Not Tito himself but Yugoslavia was very corrupt, especially by the time it was falling apart.
>>2264431I don't think Milosevic wanted to preserve Yugoslavia. The League of Communists was destroyed when Slovenian politicians left because of a spat with Milosevic. The Slovenian politicians wanted more votes, because the votes were based on membership which was proportional to population size. Slovenia was the smallest outside the Milosevic voting block, so they wanted to have a system of one vote per republic. Neither wanted to budge and the Slovenians left the party congress, followed by the Croatians, which caused the federal League of Communists to officially cease to exist shortly after that congress.
>>2264482>What did all those people die for when the same end result played out, minus Yugoslavia not dissolving?NATO destroyed Yugoslavia's production capacity. that wouldn't have been possible without literally bombing the fuck out of the factories. Plus they now had Kosovo, which was a direct result of US meddling. Plus the entire narco state controlled by the US allows for further shit in the zone.
The US doesn't cheapen out on its offerings to Moloch. Did an insane number of people die that was above and beyond what was necessary for the US to achieve its goals? Yes. Was socialism and Yugoslavia definitively crushed, parceled, and decimated? Also yes.
>>2264489Interesting. In my high school textbook I remember it was mentioned that the fighting in Slovenia was short-lived and the JNA switched to Croatia not long after.
Well, regardless, as you point out, the JNA had structural problems. Ethnic breakdown (lots of desertions), officers confused, etc. so I'm not sure if what you're suggesting would have changed anything. It wasn't down to one man, the army had problems.
>>2264492>Isn't Malagurski a right wing conspiracy theorist now?I wouldn't be surprised if he was. A lot of Serbs in general today are right-wing conspiracy theorists. It's completely normalized. I recall this one book about the supposed Islamic takeover of Germany that was popular somewhere in the 2000s or maybe early 2010s (it was basically a book about the Great Replacement conspiracy theory before it was even called that). This only got turbocharged with smartphones and the Trump era.
Our right-wingers are unironically like the Russians in Call of Duty if you're familiar with the portrayal. A living parody.
>>2265286USSR in the 90s was nothing but a russian nationalistic capitalist shithole, it fell way before Gorbachev officialy dismantled it
Pissharell helped serbs genocide albanians and bosnians btw
>SERBS WERE COMMITING GENOCIDEIraq also had WMDs too right? Assad gassed his people too? Gadaffi handed out viagra to his soldiers to rape civilians?
With retarded "communists" like these who repeat every Western media talking point who has any need for enemies?
https://thegrayzone.com/2022/12/30/declassified-intelligence-files-bosnian-war/ >>2265299>>SERBS WERE COMMITING GENOCIDEThey literally were, this is literally the only time in history besides WW2 NATO was in the righ
But even then, did you know countries like France and Britain activelly wanted to HELP the chetniks before US involvement?
>>2265300they were gay in the faggot sense
they were just total faggots
>>2265291Key difference here is that Iran always denounced and hated the zionist scum once the revolution kicked in
Chetniks cheered and supported the onslaught of Palestinians and tried to replicate it in the balkans
>>2265299>>2265302If you're talking about the 1999 bombing, then the "Serbs were committing genocide" claim was basically a US lie. Something being a genocide makes it okay and even an obligation to intervene according to the UN. The US backed the claim by the fact that earlier the Srebrenica genocide/massacre was committed by the Serbs (even though an entirely different entity did that) and pressured Western investigators who were investigating some mass graves in Kosovo. They still failed to get UN approval in the SC so in the end they intervened without UN approval. Nothing in the yugoslav wars was ruled a genocide by UN courts except for Srebrenica.
Calling Srebrenica a genocide is still very controversial in Serbia, even though in Serbia's legal system this is a fact because Serbia has signed treaties approving ICTY decisions. In my opinion, it does fit the UN definition but it is a stretch of the colloquial understanding of the term to call a single massacre a genocide.
>>2265313It is also controversial in FBiH and Croatia to acknowledge the ethnic cleansing they did.
>>2265404There are usually two reasons for recognizing or denying the independence of Kosovo, alignment with the US or having a breakaway state. Spain supports Serbia because they have Catalonia for example. Israel supports Kosovo despite Palestine because of US alignment, and Palestine is probably the exactly inverted, or perhaps they think that Israel is their Kosovo. Russia supports Serbia probably because of anti-US alignment, even though they used Kosovo as an example why Donbas is legitimate.
Some people can't accept that sometimes there are no "good guys", it's only a pile of shit on top of a pile of more shit. They have to find a "good guy" to cope with how cruel the world can be, and they end up supporting anti-communist ethnonationalists in the name of communism.
I'm sure there are social psychology studies about this. Here it takes the form of Americans telling you what you should think about your own country, ziggers, hazoids, "muh anti-imperialism", "critical support", while in liberal circles, it's an absolute refusal to recognize some Ukrainains (and Baltic people) are full-on neo-nazis who would exterminate all these good-hearted liberals in a heartbeat if they could.
Btw, let's say I might have an opportunity to go visit Serbia this year, what should I know? Where should I go in Belgrade and elsewhere?
>>2266681>natofilskoNisam natofil fašisto. Jel si nepismen? Znaš šta znači "FUCK NATO"?
Ajde sad, marš odavde. Čibe!
>>2266698>principiZa tebe je "princip", garantujem, braniti fašističke paravojne formacije. Ali si se uhvatio za komentar o NATO agresiji kao pijan plota, naravno, jer je to omiljeno propagandno sredstvo domaćih fašista sem Kosova.
Apsolutno ništa nisam pogrešno rekao u vezi NATO agresije. Svet boli kurac za NATO agresiju. Bukvalno u ovom thread-u imaš jedno ili više likova stranaca (ne naših) koji kažu da je to jedini put u istoriji sem Drugog svetskog rata da je američka vojska uradila nešto "dobro". A to su komunisti sa leftypol-a, zamisli tek kakvi su ostali. Znači, svet bukvalno
boli kurac. A da se zapitaš zašto ih boli kurac, možda ne bi bio fašista.
Poruka drugovima i drugaricama iz ostatka Juge ako čitaju: smrt "Velikoj Srbiji", smrt "Srpskom Svetu"! Slava bratstvu i solidarnošću! Nikad se ne ponovilo! Ne dajte da nas zatruju i ovde domaći fašisti!
>>2266747Nisam rekao da se slažem sa njima. Zato sam i stavio "dobro" pod navodnicima. Teško je složiti se sa nečim što je tvoja familija iskusila. Pretpostavljam da se ni tadašnji nemački komunisti ne bi složili sa bombardovanjem Drezdena, na primer. To ne menja činjenicu da nikad nećeš videti na leftypol-u thread o "sećanje nad nemačkim žrtvama Savezničkih akcija".
Ili hajde, pošto smo već otvorili temu o Nemcima (neizbežno, kako i leži jugoslovenskim narodima), jel si upoznat sa proterivanjem Folksdojčera? Jel to nešto s čim bi se složili nemački komunisti? Sa druge strane, jel nas boli kurac za proterivanje Folksdojčera? Reci iskreno.
>>2266777Čekaj, jel si ti napisao ovo?
>honestly as a serb the only thing that bothers me is how a lot of serbian communists glorify Milosevic, as if he was some great communist LOL.Jedino što bi bilo progresivno je da se narodi Jugoslavije nisu klali međusobno ni zbog čega. Da nije bilo ratova uopšte. Kao što su se srpski komunisti protivili ratu protiv Austrougarske, za šta ih je Lenjin hvalio, tako i ti kao komunista trebaš da se protiviš ratovima koji nisu doveli do ničega sem smrti proletera.
>>2266780jesam, ali ipak nisam idealista
>>2266782TOTAL TRIVUNAC VICTORY
>>2266837>nisam idealistaŠta ovo treba da znači?
>>2266782Pozitivno.
>>2265517>As for other atrocities and ethnic cleansing they appeared to be committed by all sides.Serbs did commit more of them in Bosnia and probably in Kosovo.
In Bosnia, Serbs were the best equipped and not that much behind the Bosniaks in number.
In Kosovo, the Serbs had both of these advantages on the ground while the Albanians had NATO air support (most of the fighting was after NATO joined).
I won't comment on which ethnonationalists were less ethnonationalist than the other ethnonationalists.
>>2266064Based
>>2266088You're not wrong. Even though Milosevic and his wife did have parties which branded themselves as left wing (and Milosevic's party was pretty much the successor of the League of Communists of Serbia) they weren't exactly left wing (they supported a kind of privatization and worked with with SRS) and Milosevic built his popularity with nationalist rhetoric.
>>2266560Be warned that Parenti sucks Milosevic's cock a bit too much in that book.
>>2270458>i fucking hate the current political climate in serbiayou dont deserve better
>Also why do basically all of the communist parties in Serbia cuck one way or the other for Milosevic? the ~three ruling ones with actual members do because they are ruminants from his time,the rest of the serbian "left" is just a facebook group and a bunch of radlib websites.
>>2270633>you dont deserve better;_;
Sometimes I wonder if Engels was right about calling us petty reactionary peoples that would will get wiped off the face of the Earth by the proletarian revolution. I mean, that man was right about a lot of stuff. Unfortunately.
Where are you from, anon?
>>2270735>jooj jebemti srbina najgori smo na kuglu zemaljsku.mp4this sentiment is reactionary in itself though,the serbian left dosent deserve better because it never did better not because there is something wrong with the people.
The old left betrayed everything they pretended to stand for 40 years and most higher cadres broke their oaths and were rewarded for it,the next generation spent the 2000s silent on the crimes of privatization going on instead focusing on combating nationalism (and not even doing it properly but just adopting montenegrin/croat/vojvodina nationalism and hiding behind antinationalism) and nothing changed since.
the left here dosent deserve better.
>Where are you from, anon?south serbia
>>2270928>>jooj jebemti srbina najgori smo na kuglu zemaljsku.mp4>this sentiment is reactionary in itself though,the serbian left dosent deserve better because it never did better not because there is something wrong with the people.You misunderstand why Engels would come to that conclusion. It's not that there's "something wrong with the people", it's the historical circumstances. Sandwiched between (or under the boot of) various empires, severely lagging behind in terms of development of capitalism, a majority peasant population, etc.
For Engels, there would be nothing historically progressive about Balkan nationalism. We see this most evidently in the Balkan Wars of the early 20th century, the "population exchanges", "assimilation" policies, and other petty imperialist crimes. Like a farcical version of colonialism, directed at each other. Remnants of this are seen in Balkan nationalism today: Greater Serbia, Albania, Croatia, Bulgaria, Greece, etc.
>>2270189It's funny that he was pushed out due to political overreach by Milosevic who would then do many times worse.
>>2270633>the ~three ruling ones with actual members do because they are ruminants from his timeThey're not communist, they're barely even political parties. They just follow SNS in the parliament, which basically makes them neoliberal-lite.
>>2273593It's a long time since then, there are changes membership, changes in leadership, and changes in ideology of the people who stayed (and are still alive) so you can't really compare them, especially the various political changes in the last 40 years.
Even calling SKJ from the late 80s communist is questionable, since they started the transition to capitalism due to Western pressure.
>>2273619>Even calling SKJ from the late 80s communist is questionablewe can use this line to hunt when the party stoped being "communist" and end up in pre ww2 times and conclude there were no communist in the balkans,but lets be honest this is just to make us feel better.
They are what they are and they are our mirror.
>It's a long time since thenthe world changed around them yes but they didint what we saw and how they behaved during the 90s,00s and today is the product of skj.
>>2270216>revisionist state suppoooorted>people who lost suppoooorted>the most irrelevant country in europe after moldova supooooooooooooooooooorted!!!!I almost want to post a soyjak but it's against the rules.
All I will say is that I'm in the Balkans right now, and while people are certainly more human and good-hearted than the average Westoid, it's also sad to see they barely have one good road from one city to another because they spent more time killing and raping each other in the 1990s than actually building infrastructure, while the rest of world enjoyed fake neoliberal money, from the US to China. Only Rwanda managed to be more retarded than ex-Yugoslavia in the 1990s.
I'm not saying to anyone my goal is to eventually go to Serbia where I am now, people are very nice and welcoming here, but if I told them that, they would immediately be pissed off and throw me out of there, so I respect their opinion, and once I will be in Serbia, I will also respect their different opinion there. Listen instead of trying to enforce about your opportunistic ideals by yapping endlessly, there is a reason why some countries in the Balkans still love Americans.
>>2271115Good post with actual Marxist-Engelsist theory.
>>2266240I want to ask you about good places to go in Novi Sad, but I don't trust the retards here with such info and neither should you. Maybe tell me about a district or some vague hint where I should go, I've noticed doing online research there are pretty cool bars in Belgrade near the bus station. And more importantly: Is it okay to ask Serbian locals about their opinion on the protests? I want to learn from them, their successes and mistakes. >>2264243as far as I remember the official communist party line as laid out at Tito's mausoleum is that Serbian nationalists inflamed ethnic tensions within Yugoslavia in the late 80s which then eventually led to the political gridlock with Slovenes and Croatians, and when the Slovenes seceded the whole thing came crashing down
so they place the fault primarily on the Serbian nationalists
>>2270216critical support to tricky dick (historically progressive) and his struggle against soviet social imperialism!
>>2273659>we can use this line to hunt when the party stoped being "communist" and end up in pre ww2 timesWhy? Post WW2 KPJ built the socialist system while late SKJ started the transition to capitalism. It's clear that there is a huge ideological difference. There's no reason to hunt for where the line is, and it's probably more like a gradient.
>the world changed around them yes but they didintAre you really claiming that people like Dacic, Vulin, Zeljko Mitrovic were communists in the 90s and still have the same opinions today?
>>2276004>If Milosevic was really just as anti-communist as the republics that broke away, then he would've also tried to break away cleanly, Not being anti-communist doesn't mean being communist.
>>2275858>Is it okay to ask Serbian locals about their opinion on the protests? I want to learn from them, their successes and mistakes.you wont have a problem talking about this not with the people and you wont have a problem with the state
>>2276611 this is dumb lib spin vucic is so crippled by his own structure and decades long austerity that he cant do anything.
>>2280974Why are you lying?
https://autonomija.info/hrvatski-ambasador-proterana-hrvatska-drzavljanka-arien-stojanovic-ivkovic-napustila-srbiju/<Ukupno je u poslenja tri meseca gotovo dvadesetak slučajeva bilo.At least ~20 Croatian citizens received deportation notices according to the Croatian ambasador to Serbia. That was the latest in April. The woman in question I was referring to was indeed forced to leave Serbia.
Question. Why are you lying?
Found an article displaying at length the political schizophrenia of the Balkans we're dealing with and have been dealing with
https://kosovotwopointzero.com/en/whats-left-of-my-left/Is there any hope for us, or are we doomed to reaction? How does the contradiction of an anti-communist proletariat get resolved? The Balkans aren't the only with this issue. I know for a fact that this issue also exists in Poland and the Baltics. And I've yet to see anyone say anything on the matter of Poland and the Baltics other than "fuck them" (really? so you're saying Polish and Baltic comrades should kill themselves because they were born in the wrong countries?) and "their proletariat is surely pro-communist in private, trust me bro it's all lies that they're anti-communist" (delusional fantasy that has no connection with reality).
And to make it clear, the anti-communism is not the Red Scare kind such as in America, it's most comparable to the gusano kind, such as in the Cuban and Venezuelan diaspora. Perhaps South Korea is the closest analogue? Watch "leftist" media of South Korean origin and you inevitably run into hostility or mockery towards North Korea, implicitly towards communism itself. Is South Korea considered "doomed" in serious communist analysis? What are South Korean comrades supposed to do in an environment totally hostile to them on all fronts?
>>2280988>How does the contradiction of an anti-communist proletariat get resolved? its not the ideas the average person responds well to the ideas and agrees with them,the biggest gripe people in the balkans have if we exclude the fantastical "the communists were eating babies 1 trilion dead in goli otok" propaganda,is the betrayal.
A popular semi true-myth that exists in every balkan country is the "children of communists",it goes that in the 90s all the communist comrades the apparatchiki took off their red stars and "became" democratic liberals/nationalist liberals and that today its just their children that hold power.
The other gripe i heard quite often mostly from rural people is the betrayal from the army,they could get over the party being filled with rats but the officers the generals that hurt them the most.These people gave oaths that they will keep the country together they got respect,cars,houses and when the time came most either did nothing,surrendered or went on to collaborate.
When privatization came in croatia/bosina during the war and serbia/montenegro in 00s,the new and young left wing betrayed the workers yet again by just ignoring it or even scolding them and dehumanizing them in various ways(some do it to this day) how they had it coming and that they deserve it.
The reputation of communists here is bad 50% because of lies and 50% because of the way the handled the last 3 decades,nobody is willing to fight for a group that cant keep a oath.
>>2281889that also fits in the
>the fantastical "the communists were eating babies 1 trilion dead in goli otok" propagandaThis is all cheap propaganda that you can easily disprove and the majority of people here will accept it if you present it properly,its all just rhetoric.
The betrayal however is a much bigger problem because unlike all the other sins given to the left here that sin is actually real and i dont see how it can be solved.We can wax about history all we want and for many years i did,but should we?
Whats even the point in setting the record straight and answering the billions of petty anticommunist myths if it leads to nothing.
>>2281332>you posted autonomija lolThe source of the ambassador's statements is N1 Zagreb retard. Next you'll tell me we can't trust CNN's coverage of US politician statements.
>If this is a le heckin scary police state that deports foreigners that ask questions its doing a bad job at it dont lie to the anonLe heckin scary police state is your schizophrenia, not mine. I am letting the anon evaluate the risk for himself by pointing out the situation with the Croatian woman. I did indeed say the chances are, by my subjective feeling, slim that he would be targeted, but it is ultimately up to him to decide based on the facts and not your schizophrenia.
>>2284444>controversial even today.We all know they are fellow Serbro, but the point is AVNOJ borders were objectively unjust (how come it is only SR Serbia which loses almost half of its territories to APs which have defacto almost same status as SR Serbia, despite Croatia and Bosnia (especially latter) having substantial minority population)
Game was rigged against us and Milošević found way to exploit it, however it was already a swan song for Yugoslavia unfortunately
>>2286987What makes Montenegrins not Serbs? Before WW2 terms "Montenegrin" and "Serb" were used interchangeably because they were same thing, kinda how you would assume someone is German if they say they are Bavarian. Even the Italian collabs fascists didn't deny their ethnic background.
>We are all Yugoslavs and Balkan people is the only non-delusional take.Try telling that to people who would slaughter us again in a heartbeat. You cannot force brotherhood with people who view you as eternal enemy. Brotherhood and unity is what led to Serbs being gone in Dalmatia, Krajina, Sarajevo and near extinction in Kosovo. So please spare me of bs
>>2287788you are correct but he will call you a fascist to virtue signal,the serbian left has this dumb titoist line were they think anti nationalism is just adopting positions of the opposing nationalists.
"Montenegrin" as a separate nationality is a meme identity that exists only to uphold the apartheid in the little mafia narco state its rooted in nothing and only bipolar metal cases from cetinje belive in it.
>We are all Yugoslavs"Стари сад се види, сад се враћа
с' ким' сте хтјели да будете браћа…."
>>2288592Touche
>>2288594"Macedonians" north of Skopje are Serbs while south of it are Bulgarians
>>2288592>adopting positions of the opposing nationalistsHow is being pro-Yugoslav adopting the positions of opposing nationalists
You have literally absorbed reactionary anti-communist neo-chetnik propaganda, you realize that right
>>2264230>As a Serb, I am sick and tired of explaining to Westerners that no, Croats and Bosniaks and Kosovar Albanians were not the "good guys" of the 90s wars.I just got done reading Michael Parenti's book
To Kill A Nation and I see the exact same imperialist playbook being used in the Ukraine conflict to justify NATO interventionism. To me, even if there were no "good guys" in the 90s wars, there was clearly a bad guy: NATO, stoking the conflict to destroy a nation and turn it into a balkanized, internally divided, privatized, deregulated, source of cheap labor for imperialism. Have you read Parenti's book, and as a local can you speak on its accuracy?
Embeded is the audiobook
>>2289291Not the person you are replying too but positions such as that Serbs were opressors, Montenegrins, Macedonians and Bosniaks are 3 different people and I've also seen some serb titoids claim that kosovo is albania, though that is rare disease
Also, what's the point of brotherhood and unity with people who hate you? It was only Serbs and Slovenians which fought to protect Yugoslavia from Germany, while Croats were one actively helping Wehrmacht (giving away army positions etc etc)
>>2289291>You have literally absorbed reactionary anti-communist……shitting on the dead end failed project of yugomeme nationalism is not anti communism though.
When titoists pretend to be anti nationalist they never do it from a internationalist position but they almost always do it by adopting the nationalist positions from others repeating their propaganda and arguments back,you can pretend that its all propaganda of the big chetnik(tm) conspiracy to cope about it but it dosent change reality that majority in fact behave like this.
Every chauvinist Montenegrin from beograd and 20th generation vojvodjanin hides behind that flag when he writes his poison,the chetniks dont have to do a thing.
Its why yugo flags today can only be found in liberal civic circles or in ngo operations,they know what the flag signals.
>>2289324>I've also seen some serb titoids claim that kosovo is albania, though that is rare diseaseYou know Enver Hoxha, the funny meme Albanian bunker guy popular on leftypol? I heard he had some takes. One English-translation one I found on marxists.org:
<Tito asked me what I thought about Kosova. 'Kosova and the other regions of Yugoslavia with an Albanian population,' I replied, 'are Albanian territory which the great powers unjustly tore away from Albania; they belong to Albania and should be returned to Albania. Now that we are two socialist countries the conditions exist for this problem to be solved correctly'. Tito said to me: 'I agree, this is what we desire, but for the moment we are unable to do anything because the Serbs do not understand such a thing'. 'If they don't understand it today,' I said, 'they will have to understand it tomorrow'."Damn.
<However, we for our part, without ever interfering in the internal affairs of Yugoslavia, will never cease supporting the rights of our brothers of the one blood, living in Yugoslavia and will raise our voice against the terror, the policy of extermination, which the Tito-Rankovich clique is pursuing towards them." Finally, I told Comrade Stalin that we had written him a letter about this problem.Holy shit. He name-dropped Ranković. The Serbian "hero" famous for his terror policies against Albanians in Kosovo.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hoxha/works/stalin/meet3.htmGod being a Serbian communist fucking SUCKS
>>2289438titos opinions arent gospel in fact many were wrong.
>God being a Serbian communist fucking SUCKSthats why there arent any today until conditions change to make it a viable position again in the public.
>>2286987The Montenegrin part is not really nationalist schizophrenia, historically they considered themselves Serb and even today many do.
>>2287788>Try telling that to people who would slaughter us again in a heartbeat. You cannot force brotherhood with people who view you as eternal enemy. Brotherhood and unity is what led to Serbs being gone in Dalmatia, Krajina, Sarajevo and near extinction in Kosovo. So please spare me of bsHow can you say that and call yourself a leftist? That is entirely a nationalist statement. It uses the same logic behind calling Serbs genociders and slaughters.
>>2288592>you are correct but he will call you a fascist to virtue signal,the serbian left has this dumb titoist line were they think anti nationalism is just adopting positions of the opposing nationalists.And you are just adopting positions of your nationalists.
>"Стари сад се види, сад се враћа>с' ким' сте хтјели да будете браћа…."The usage of that line triggers me so much. For the people not speaking Serbian, it's something like "Dad, now you see, now you recall, with who you wanted to be brothers," (referring to Yugoslavia in WWII)
That line is nationalism distilled. It says that the other nations were like that in the past, in the present so they are like that by nature.
And the song is not supposed to be an endorsement of nationalism. The song is a sequel of the original band's Dan Republike, where the dad cries about the youth not caring about Yugoslavism/Communism. Like in the first song where the son is being cynical about his war stories and stuff, in this song he is cynical about Yugoslavia as a whole.
I don't know about Nele's personal views, but the rest of the album is generally anti-nationalist in its messages, so that makes the song being nationalistic even less likely.
>>2289324>Also, what's the point of brotherhood and unity with people who hate you? It was only Serbs and Slovenians which fought to protect Yugoslavia from Germany, while Croats were one actively helping Wehrmacht (giving away army positions etc etc)Literally just nationalist myths. Though I've also seen nationalists ignoring the fact that Serb Partisans existed at all, and there's also that retarded song thing saying "Tito, Serbs are lying to you, they love Draza" which Serb nationalists think makes Serbs look based? There's also a version where a less ambiguous collaborator is mentioned, not sure if it was Ljotic or Nedic.
>>2289371>Its why yugo flags today can only be found in liberal civic circles or in ngo operations,they know what the flag signals.You're just schizoposting now.
>>2289446Maybe it was like that in the beginning but later both sides wanted to obtain as much ethnically clean land as possible to merge into their postwar states.
>>2289611If Croats have self determination, why don't Croatian Serbs have it? Self determination is a meme because the line is always arbitrary.
>>2289764>The Montenegrin part is not really nationalist schizophrenia, historically they considered themselves Serb and even today many do.I meant, whether this or that group are Serbs or something else, is ultimately pointless, it's like being considered white for Americans, the vague shifting lines of nationality/race are an instrument of reaction in this context. Why were Marx/Engels critical of Pan-Slavism? It was promoted by Tsarist Russia. We know today that there had been Russian chauvinism even in the USSR, this isn't even controversial on leftypol. Well, Belorussians and Ukrainians were treated as Schrodinger's Russians. One moment, they are Russian, the next moment, they are not Russian. Pan-Slavism in Russia in practice turned into a disguise for this reactionary instrument. That is exactly what happened with Pan-Serbism and Pan-Bulgarism. My own great grandparents on one side were victims of simultaneously being Serbs and Bulgarians. It's about like when Americans ask "are Italians white?". Why does the state of whiteness matter to you Mr. American?
>>2290239>umm sweaty just get a job and you'll stop being a racist chudthis is like when stupid whores think getting laid will stop chuds being racist
it's a cognitive bias
>>2290246Are you even a materialist
I was a "libertarian" when I was a teenager who believed Trump would stop America's wars, guess what I am now
>>2290251Materialism is when people change based on their material circumstances
I changed based on my material circumstances. I saw that Trump is a liar, yes, but more importantly, I realized that the entire US apparatus is militaristic, and why, because the US is the number 1 imperialist in the world, because the dollar is the literal reserve currency of the world, the US can not only afford to be militaristic, it has to be militaristic to protect its status. And then I got a job and was radicalized by factory despotism as Bordiga calls it. Or as Engels writes
<The automatic machinery of the big factory is much more despotic than the small capitalists who employ workers ever have been. At least with regard to the hours of work one may write upon the portals of these factories: Lasciate ogni autonomia, voi che entrate! [Leave, ye that enter in, all autonomy behind!]https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htmThat was exactly my first job. A big factory with huge machines dictating the pace and intensity of my labor. It was a learning experience.
Do you know what materialism is?
>>2341607This is how I feel about the entire USSR in general.
They should have preserved local cultures while maintaining a single nationhood, like China.
Culture can exist irrespective of nationhood, but nationhood, in the legal sense, binds people and restrains them, both materially and culturally. It's what nations were invented to do in the first place.
By preserving nationhood, the USSR unwittingly empowered Great Russian chauvinism, while the smaller republics experienced their nationhood as shackling rather than liberatory, despite all the affirmative action. Thus, when the USSR fell apart, Russia became "the main character", while the republics had no other identities to accept than that of "ungrateful children".
And now, in post soviet times, to the average citizen, sovereign nationhood is more of a curse than a boon: as newly impoverished third worlders, their weak passports bind them to their country of origin, and make them shattered and weak against the global imperialist system of economic exploitation.
Both Yugoslavia and the USSR, have long since died, away in the mist of time, their rotting carcasses, have decomposed. The ideals they represented, buried with them, anyone who lived through, and supported it, have dementia, their monumental collapse, as iconic as their existence, and a testament to their complete failure. In the following decades since, the world of the 20th century disappeared, just like the memory and reason of their, now senile, supporters. they are cursed, anyone who tries to follow them will meet their grim fate, so I advise everyone to keep away, and ignore them.
>>2341859The level of violence which I would inflict on the reality-denying Serb chauvinists would make the Bolsheviks look like hippies
These "people" are on the level of Holocaust deniers, the difference with Holocaust deniers being, they are fully and totally normalized in Serbian society
>>2354263ni manje ni vise nego lenjin lol,nisi ti ni l od lenjina.On je znao gde je,sta je i u potpunosti je razumeo politiku oko sebe i svoj narod,ti pak nemas pojma samo si odrodjeni degen sa liboskim kompleksima.
Proslavim ti mater kurvu kurcem picketino
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