/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>2276730

Seems like a us style democrat from the manifest destiny era where the idea is that all people should become small landowners too with land privatization initiative.

They'll leave. If they refuse they'll be deported. If they fight back, they'll be killed.

So it seems like the new pope is a zionist too

>>2276278
On that, the Jewish religious fanatics in the West Bank are like a vanguard that will take over a hilltop, terrorize the nearby Palestinians, and dig in, but I've read that a lot of people who have moved into West Bank settlements in recent years have done so because the land and housing is relatively cheap and then they get materially invested in occupation. (Israel is expensive.)

>>2275505
I also think Israel behaves barbarically but it's not simply settler-colonialism either. There is settler-colonialism in the West Bank but Israel is a hybrid of that and also a national project so the application of an anti-colonial war strategy like the FLN or Viet Minh hasn't worked. If that strategy worked, it would've worked, but it hasn't worked. I'm not sure what the solution is but at this point the Jews are not going to let themselves be driven out of there by force.

>>2276553
The attitude there among some of the generals and so on is that they stopped trying to decisively win wars and conquer territory like they did back in the 1960s because they have the U.S. behind them. Israel hasn't decisively won a war since the U.S. really started embracing Israel, so Trump indicating he's getting tired of Israel is therefore pushing Israel to (try to) finish the war once and for all (or whatever Bibi is saying).

>>2277825
>the application of an anti-colonial war strategy like the FLN or Viet Minh hasn't worked
That's because the Israelis aren't exactly foreign occupiers in the same way the French or other colonial powers were. They regard Israel as their home, not some cash cow to squeeze for resources and cheap labour. Indeed they regard *themselves* as the Indigenous population, so it's very unlikely that the classic anti-colonial strategy of making yourself more trouble than you're worth will pay off. The closest parallel is of course South Africa and Rhodesia, but in those cases the indigenous population vastly outnumbered the settlers, so they could simply exhaust and overpower them. In Palestin the populations are evenly split and the settlers have far more resources. I think the only way the Palestinians can win is if the Israelis lose their material advantage. Since Israel is not a self sustaining economic unit, this basically means the only way for it to be defeated is for the US to decline to the point where it is unwilling or unable to keep writing Israel blank cheques.

>>2277833
>Since Israel is not a self sustaining economic unit, this basically means the only way for it to be defeated is for the US to decline to the point where it is unwilling or unable to keep writing Israel blank cheques.
Odds of the Goynited States of Slopmerica to ever do that: zero

>>2277833
> US to decline to the point where it is unwilling or unable to keep writing Israel blank cheques.

Not gonna happen.

I think that the only real solution is military intervention. And nothing will work.

>>2277889
>>2277887
It will happen if they're physically incapable supporting them, hence why I mentioned further American decline was necessary.

>>2277895
Oh then we have nothing to worry about, Felix said he was going to overthrow the government any day now

>>2277833
>the Israelis aren't exactly foreign occupiers in the same way the French or other colonial powers were. They regard Israel as their home,
this is true but I get the impression there is an anxiety always at there back of their mind. what if they are just europeans LARPing like all the anti zionists say? why do these aryan looking Israelis with American accents keep saying khhhhamas and khezbollah and khssan nasrallakh. is it because they're trying to 'fit in' with the region?

>>2277833
>In Palestin the populations are evenly split and the settlers have far more resources. I think the only way the Palestinians can win is if the Israelis lose their material advantage.
I think the First Intfada had them down really bad. That's my impression. It was really a bottom-up uprising, and the PLO didn't even know WTF was going on at first, because they were in exile in Tunisia. Then the Israelis went out to confront crowds of kids throwing rocks at them, and that was demoralizing to Israeli soldiers and to Israeli society. It was militant and confrontational but it wasn't the same thing as a war. This is when a lot of famous pictures of Palestinian kids running up to Israeli tanks were taken. That was in the late 1980s.

There's a very simple and psychological reason why this was demoralizing. Soldiers want to serve their country and want to prove themselves. The problem is, you can't do that against someone who is much weaker than you. You're in a lose-lose situation. If you let the much weaker person kill you, you're an idiot, but if you kill him then you're a bastard.

To fight somebody who is weak makes YOU weak.

But there's this attitude among resistance supporters (I'm not saying this is what Palestinians are saying) who are like "Israel is going to be DESTROYED and WE'RE STRONG" and here's a video of a Merkava being blown up by an RPG. I see this a lot. I don't know if that is actually helpful, to be honest. Or it doesn't have the same effect on the Israeli psyche, and it might feed the evil rather than demoralizing it (even if the intentions and actions are heroic in the circumstances). And again, I'm not subjected to an Israeli military occupation, and I do feel uncomfortable telling anybody what to do.

>Since Israel is not a self sustaining economic unit, this basically means the only way for it to be defeated is for the US to decline to the point where it is unwilling or unable to keep writing Israel blank cheques.
The flip side is that there's an argument in Israel about trying to wean Israel off U.S. assistance as being in Israeli interests. They can also be hypocritical (and there are also Israelis with different opinions though) when they bitch that U.S. doesn't give them e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g they ask for (even though it's way more than many countries), but it's like this "hugging Israel" shit that you see American politicians do. The left doesn't believe the U.S. is restraining them at all, but there are Israelis who do think the U.S. is and does, and this hugging shit is how my country's glorious leaders do it. They show up, and hug them, and say we luuuuv uuuuu and then whisper "plz don't nuke somebody" because we also think they're kind of crazy.

But Israel is also like an R&D testing lab for American weapons which are developed in Israel but are co-owned by the U.S. and Israel which bypasses the bureaucratic red tape in the United States. The nationalist argument against Israel "aid" in the U.S. is "we're just giving money to Israel, what does AMERICA get out of it?" But "America" is an abstraction here. The military-industrial complex gets a lot out of it because the military financing aid is conditioned on buying American weapons, so it's an indirect subsidy to the U.S. MIC. This populist thing about "they think we're suckers" is not actually the case when it comes to the people who run the United States. There are other suckers but Raytheon (which co-owns and makes Iron Dome) are not suckers. That shit Trump is talking about the "Golden Dome" is also based on it.

>>2277899
A large proportion of Israelis were born there, and their families have lived there for generations. I'm not about to run off to eastern Europe just because my grandparents are from there since this is the only home I've ever known. I'd imagine a lot of them feel the same way.
>>2277905
>The flip side is that there's an argument in Israel about trying to wean Israel off U.S. assistance as being in Israeli interest
They'd be correct to say that. Israel in its current form could never survive in the long term. It simply cant produce enough equipment, fuel, parts, and weapons to sustain the kind of high tech, resource intensive military they've built for themselves. Without the US they'd end up like South Vietnam, who had this massive army built in America's image, using American doctrine, etc. but once the US bailed they didn't have the resources to keep it operational. The Greater Israel project isn't just the purview of religious or nationalist fanatics, something like large scale territorial expansion, rapid population growth, and major industrialization would be necessary for Israel to stand on its own two feet, but I don't think that's likely since nearly 60 years after 1967 they still haven't fully pacified Gaza and the West Bank. I think in the long term Israel is doomed to fail simply because it won't be able to become self sufficient before the US empire begins terminal decline. Once that happens it's only a matter of time before it collapses from exhaustion and attrition the way Rhodesia and South Africa did.

>>2277905
>a video of a Merkava being blown up by an RPG. I see this a lot. I don't know if that is actually helpful, to be honest. Or it doesn't have the same effect on the Israeli psyche, and it might feed the evil rather than demoralizing it (even if the intentions and actions are heroic in the circumstances). And again, I'm not subjected to an Israeli military occupation, and I do feel uncomfortable telling anybody what to do.

I will tell u man, first of all forget about the israeli psyche, have you seen what these people justify and how they talk about the genocide they're perpetrating? How much more evil can they be possible be fed into? Personally I think it pisses them the fuck off, they're seething as fuck that they could never pull off heroic shit like in those vids. But that makes no difference in terms of how much suffering they inflict on the palestinians I think they'd be just as cruel regardless.
Secondly, Im not trying to speak for all palestinians or something, but from talking to some about it, they love that shit dude. There's few things that uplift them more than seeing some badass blow of a tank of full of those genocidal nazis, it's helpful on that ground alone
>But there's this attitude among resistance supporters (I'm not saying this is what Palestinians are saying) who are like "Israel is going to be DESTROYED and WE'RE STRONG"
It's fine to posture against zionists, I don't think there's any harm in it

>>2277924
>A large proportion of Israelis were born there, and their families have lived there for generations. I'm not about to run off to eastern Europe just because my grandparents are from there since this is the only home I've ever known. I'd imagine a lot of them feel the same way.

People felt like this in every colonial state dawg, they didn't wanna go back either, Israel is not special in this regard. The only difference is that there's not a single nation of origin. But their metropole is the united states. If it came to it, that's probably where all the ones that don't want to live in a democratic state will flock to, maybe western europe/eu as well

>>2277803
Honestly, I genuinrly think Jews did in fact kidnap, rape and bleed young Christian children to death. They peddle degenerate material and have no consciousness.

>>2278080
*consciences
Fuck my ESL life

>>2277895
In your opinion, do you feel America is in such a state where this seems likely?

>>2277924
>They'd be correct to say that. Israel in its current form could never survive in the long term. It simply cant produce enough equipment, fuel, parts, and weapons to sustain the kind of high tech, resource intensive military they've built for themselves. Without the US they'd end up like South Vietnam, who had this massive army built in America's image, using American doctrine, etc. but once the US bailed they didn't have the resources to keep it operational.
I think the main thing is the air force. If you look at it, it's all American stuff. Used to be French. The U.S. got them hooked on an American supply chain for the F-15s and F-16s and now F-35s. But the ground force is a different story. It's built differently from the U.S. and not comparable to South Vietnam. They also have their own arms industry and carved out a niche in the Cold War selling Western-style weapons to all kinds of crazy countries at a lower cost. In terms of "economic complexity" (i.e. diversity and sophistication of industry) they're slightly ahead of China.

>>2279115
>But the ground force is a different story.
Sure but without their air force their advantage would be much, much smaller. They wouldn't be able to deliver nearly as much ordinance with complete impunity, which is what results in the casualties being so lopsided.

>>2279116
Not only that, but they wouldn't be able to strike at Iran. Well, they'd probably figure out a way to keep things flying (even Iran has managed to keep old F-14s from the 1970s like Top Gun flying), but it would be pretty painful.

>>2279115
>they're slightly ahead of China
Doubtful. China's older air combat systems are capable of taking out western gen 4.5 and China's newest fighter jet SAC J-50 looks in terms of aerodynamics & stealth like nothing else seen so far.

>>2279142
Israel has been a major supplier of military hardware for china though

>>2279142
I'm talking about ECI more generally. Like how diversified and complex an industrial economy is overall. But Israel has struggled to build its own aircraft, that's true. I think they probably could and they used to reverse-engineer and make their own French Mirage fighters back in the 60s or something but it'd be very expensive.

>>2279120
Honestly I think a bigger issue than the planes themselves would be munitions. They'd never be able to produce enough bombs and shells on their own without a major overhaul of their economy. Even then, without the American subsidies the financial costs of waging a war like thus would skyrocket and impact living standards. A lot of dual passport holders might question whether it was worth it to live in some besieged country with an Eastern Europe tier economy, and a lot less foreign Jews would probably immigrate.

>>2279152
I hope it doesn't backfire.

>>2279183
Not sure about the quality of Israel's MIC in general. They have decent drones, however i highly doubt that they are more advanced than China's current gen drones. Israel proved a number of times (in particular evil manner) though that they are very good, if not most capable, when it comes to IT networking, surveillance, intrusion and sabotage hardware and software.

>>2274719
What will happen to the Israeli's is in the hand of the Palestenian resistance and maybe their allies should they allow them to aid in a hypothetical reconstruction/ reclamation of Palestine.
It will also will depend on wether the Israeli's contribute to decolonisation and help rebuild the Palestenian nation while abolishing their own. If they choose to remain Zionists, the Palestenians will handle them accordingly.

Outside looking in though, I reckon we're probably going to see a Rhodesia-style settler exodus should the Palestenians win. A lot of Israeli's have dual citizenship. If a bunch of South African Boers can claim they're being "genocided" and be taken in by the USA, I'm sure orange ᴉuᴉlossnW could do the same with the Zionists.

>>2279820
The cheap FPVs from China which they can produce in unbelievable quantities is huge. Israeli drone tech might be more advanced in some dimension (maybe, I don't know) but I'd rather have China's production lines. The thing Israel is #1 at tech wise is missile defense.

>>2279864
> The thing Israel is #1 at tech wise is missile defense.
And yet during the Iran missile posturing, what got reported as basic ballistic missiles got through. I kind of expected the point of all this bragging about the dome and whatnot to be no just capable of shooting down homemade rockets reliably (at an exorbitant cost). But to take away the non-nuclear MAD with Iran.However, It looked like if they actually had a MAD situation no amount of domes and shields and slings could stop conventional missiles from raining down on Tel Aviv.

Even the occasional Yemeni drone or missile seems to get through. And plenty of Hizbollah rockets and drones as well.

>>2274719
the goal of the muslims is to murder all the jews in the world, it's literally a religious commandment for them

>>2279846
I stg if a bunch a fuckin zios and boers start coming over here I'll show em what actual discrimination and prejudice look like lmao wanna bitch and moan abt le white genocide mfer imma about to show what actual discrimination feels like when I through a brick at your fucking car spray paint malema was right on your fuckin crib

>>2274719
What's going to happen is the israelis are going to kill everyone in their way, and create greater israel.

No amount of moralism and 18th century ethnic politics will make the existance of the israeli working class less real or relevant.

>>2275505
Only good take

>>2275619
>Zionism is simultanously a settler colonial project that oppresses Palestinians and national liberation for an oppressed group
That's the fate of all "national liberations"

>>2275505
>are in Israel because their ancestors were forcefully kicked out of some other place.
Well, if it worked once… Maybe next "jewish homeland" should be built on the eathnic cleansing of most of Germany. Honestly, we should give it a good honest try. Just draw some shitty borders, slap dash on the middle of Europe and send the big boy genociders there to clear the land.

But the truth is there is no such thing as a homeland for Jews. THere is only a NATO outpost safeguarding travel routes and the regional interests of the USA in upholding the pretrodollar. So even if by some supernatural means Pissrael was moved elsewhere, literally anywhere else, it would immediately collapse because there is no where near the material incentive for NATO to uphold their shitty colony anymore.

And because without Israel, NATO would enter a deep economic crisis as the middle east begins to emancipate. I reckon NATO would rather raze most of it than risk losing the petrodollar.

>>2281135
weak bait

>>2281181
They are correct though.

>>2281135
>the israeli working class less real or relevant.
The argument goes like this: I suggest that, like pretty much any other human problem, can be solved with sufficient application of violence and the imposition of an alternative framework of economic relations IE. socialism.

Then you go on to make the argument for me that NATO would never allow it and, in your zeal to evoke rage and enshrine the Zionist power, that the only reason Pissrael exists, is to be the local enforcer of NATO interests.

Zionism is a political ideology. The Jewish Bunds (look up Bundism) and various other worker-based socialist movements for Jews and by Jews were almost universally anti-zionist.

>>2281263
They were also opportunist anti revolutionary economists dragging at the heels of the bolsheviks like every other J menchevik including the famous J menchevik bolshevik hybrid trotsky himself

Gonna be real for a second, an actual resolution to Israel-Palestine will in reality probably look like modern Bosnia.

>>2281389
Why would NATO allow that sort of infighting when they hold all the cards themselves? It was benefitial to NATO to break down Yugoslavia and balkanize it along reactionary lines. The opposite is true for Israel.

>>2281400
Because a strong israel is becoming a liability. Turkey is on the verge of creating a soft power ottoman empire because of Israel. What the west wants is a jewish state that shuts the fuck up and stops antagonising its oil-supplying neighbours. At least nowadays.

>>2281413
>that shuts the fuck up and stops antagonising its oil-supplying neighbour
That is the literal reason why Israel exists though. To keep the compradors in line and exert NATO's influence over their politics so they can keep being western clients. You may aswell believe that NATO wants to demilitarize Ukraine and Taiwan so they stop being obnoxious attack dogs.

>What is to be done with Israelis?
Extermination.

>>2274738
How are they supposed to live with people who overwhelmingly support brazen genocide? https://archive.md/yI4Dy (translate it)