Can someone explain to my why we’re defending this? I can’t understand why we’re bending over backwards to defend these obvious fascists, wouldn’t it be better if there was some sort of nato color revolution
>>2343293Not all bourgeois states are fascist. Iran is a bourgeois democracy.
>They are extremely oppressive of women’s rights If you think that's bad then wait until you hear about the state of Palestinian women's rights under Israeli occupation.
>>2343262>>2343262>wouldn’t it be better if there was some sort of nato color revolutionno retard it wouldn't be better
>>2343288those are mossad and should be hanged
>>2343351>I do t want to see them get killed by some insane fanatic regimeSame. I don’t want the insane fanatic Zionist entity to continue killing people either
Israel is multitudes worse than any other nation on Earth save the US
>>2343359>How about I think BOTH are badYeah well that's retarded. Iran is defending itself, and you haven't given a good reason why we shouldn't actively oppose US/Israeli aggression against them.
>>2343361>How dare you bring up the holocaustIf you're mad at me for bringing up the Holocaust then wait until you hear about how Israel is committing one.
>>2343361Also
>My familes Jewish.Yeah and mine's Polish. My grandfather spent most of the war in a forced labour camp after the Nazis razed his village to the ground. You people need to stop acting like you have a monopoly on persecution, even at the hands of the Nazis.
>>2343404>We can't give them equal rights because if we do they'll kill us all!This has been the cry of the oppressor in every situation. The slave owners in the American South said it, the white colonizers in South Africa and Rhodesia said it. It has pretty much never turned out to be true, and on the contrary these groups still enjoy immense power over the people they were oppressing. The only time anything remotely similar happened was in Haiti, when the slaves rose up and massacred the white population not because they were given equal rights, but because they were treated with such brutality that they couldn't take it anymore.
Israel is not a sustainable project, it exists only by virtue of its massive military which it cannot support without endless, unconditional aid from the US. What happens if that dries up? US power is on the downturn globally, anti-Zionist sentiment in the country is rising. What happens if there comes a time when America is no longer willing or able to dump endless piles of money and weapons into Israel? The state will fall, and if its people have made no effort to reconcile themselves to the indigenous population then they will be driven out, with nobody to blame but themselves. The only hope for their survival and continued residency in the region is to end the apartheid regime.
>>2343435ok, so what? what's next?
you tried emotional blackmail and it failed, no one cares about appearing like this or that to you, what now?
tick tock
>>2343426lmfao let me remind you that you are just a keyboard warrior and you wont do shit, blud thinks hes though
nothing will happen and all of this will end in a ceasefire in a few weeks, maybe days
>>2343445>>2343444post it one more time shlomo, no one cared the first two times
tick tock (<- this is the clock ticking ever closer to your family's death)
>>2343446KEEEK im not op you retarded sanduyghur, watching you seethe is so funny, why dont you stop posting in imageboards and go die for iran mr keyboard warrior?
even the citizens in russian saboteurrael have bunkers and their government has very powerful people on their side, retarded muzziepedos stand no chance, muzzies are a danger to womens rights that must and will be eradicated
>>2343471how do you feel about the fact that your prophet married a 6 year old and then raped her at 9?
truly a disgusting religion, both you and russian saboteurs deserve to be nuked into extinction
>>2343507>"heheh fuck arabs fuck jews who cares about this conflict i say kill them all!"<seethes incontrolably every time i say i want to kill zionists|
|>
|3
>>2343535No one cares
Nuke Israel
>>2343535ohhhhh nooooooooo we just need to have the sympathy of zionazi settler apologist scum waaah waaaah
total zionazi death NOW
>>2343288no one ever said they should
>>2343453you gonna post a source? its obvious machine translation
>>2343556except when marx supported variously, britian, the united states, france, the united states again, prussia, britain and france again, the ottoman empire, poland, etc. and this is all before imperialism and lenin which supported many borg natlib struggles before we even get to stalin and mao.
communists always view analysis through the specific historical conditions and endorse pragmatic steps to materially effect progressive change towards communism not idealist one-size-fits all universal rules divorced from context
>>2343364there's been a lot of pol raiders lately. they tend to do 1 of two things in terms of trolling strategy:
1. pretend to be outraged zionist jews yelling "oy vey" at everything and talking about how zionism is actually not a hateful racist ideology and really it's just kahanism that's the problem and everyone here is way too antisemitic and you need to tone it down.
2. be hardened nazis who are here to tell the
regular leftypol users judeo-bolsheviks that they aren't real anti-zionists and in fact are zogbot mossad agents unless they heil hitler (while not really giving a damn about the suffering of palestinians, and seeing the genocide in gaza as an opportunity to "redpill" people about how the fuhrer did nothing wrong)
>>2343649>Lmao. Your assuming too much, the Arab world in large part is secularizingDoesn't matter, Islam is the fastest growing religion, poised to take over Christianity by 2050
>And those are based on current birthrates and not future onesBirthrates have nothing to do with it dummy
> Islamism is hated in Europe and America. And leftist supporting it will destroy leftists movements in those countriesDoesn't matter, it will become the biggest religion in the west as well, refusing to acknowledge the tide won't do anything
>When the Arab world modernizes they will move away from Islamism and will associate the two. They will not become proletariat dictatorships. Islamic birthrates are in free fall and apostasy is skyrocketing. Islamist doesn’t align with our values and supporting them has made us more into a West bad instead of actually standing for anythingLearn the difference between islam and islamist retard
>>2343651Leftism has never been communist, nor has MLism in particular
It shouldn’t be shocking an imageboard for losers is a fascist shithole regardless of its surface aesthetics
Pretty much all imageboards are fascist because the Internet, a technology invented by the literal US military, exists for almost no other reason than the production of anticommunist propaganda. In reality, leftypol mostly exists to produce propaganda for a collection of imperialist states in competition with the also imperialist West. The average leftypoler; these days, is effectively a fascist, and when they define “socialism” they literally are just describing how Mossulini described his ideal Italian Social Republic.
>>2343765>jewish nationalists enact a blood and soil extermination campaign against palestinians<but fighting back is also le blood and soil in the eyes of the ultrathere's no winning huh
just kidding, winning for you is if israel completes the genocide! :)
>>2343769Why do MLs resort to blood and soil rhetoric when chastising the Israeli settler-colonial regime rather than its reality as a genocidal bourgeois state at the behest of foreign empires? Would it be substantially better if Israelis were native while committing genocide? Is this the basis for shilling Islamic orgs and the general acceptance of MLs that proletarians the world over flock to reactionary groups due to the historical prevarication of socialists and the destruction of socialist parties and movements by the exact reactionaries modern western honkies tend to shill for as “anti-imperialist”
Also I am actually discussing Iran largely, don’t tell me you’re retarded enough to think the Israeli attacks on Iran = Iran coming to the rescue of people in Gaza?
>>2343779>Why do MLs resort to blood and soil rhetoric jews went to palestine and exterminated palestinians under blood and soil pretenses, the palestinians only fought back to defend themselves
what are you talking about? nonsense as usual, this is why i tell people like you that i want you dead
>>2343797I mean they tend to shill for the actual state itself and happily say Iranian communist parties ought to be arrested for daring to put out critical statements “even” in a period of “national crisis”
It’s actually quite funny that honkies in the West fantasize about finally being able to revolt if China invaded America or something but get all Freikorps when communists in other countries do that
>>2343803Who is yourself?
Why do you think proletarians in Iran stand to gain more from being nuked by the Israeli regime in defense of the Iranian bourgeoisie than a revolutionary movement that overthrows all the governments of the region including Israel’s?
Is your answer going to be something other than this would require internationalism with the filthy mongrelized scum of the world and that true born patriotic business owners are more proletarian than actual proletarians from the wrong country?
If ᴉuᴉlossnW was African leftypol would be fascist without pretext I swear 😂😂😂
>>2343810>My patience has limitsThen stop replying? The online brigades can surely maintain themselves without their strongest soldier for at least an hour.
<You’re gonna become pro-American any day now!Well, most likely, yeah, considering your “opposition” to America is purely rhetorical, and more than that, purely moralist
Once you can contrive of a reason why your nation is good, presuming you are yet another honkie that just wants to kill his neighbors, every argument made in defense of “anti-imperialist” blud und boden will easily be turned in defense of your own nation once you get tired of performative self-loathing
>>2343813In what way do you oppose the extermination campaign?
Most of the time when I talk to MLs on this, they ultimately admit they really just want Palestinian and Iranian proletarians to die with dignity rather than surrender to vile concepts like socialism and internationalism, two things that ironically could save these people, but naturally, MLs would rather see them die to the very last in the name of upholding a weaker nation rather than live in concert with the class of people who stand capable of ending imperialist wars and genocide for good. The deepest irony to all this is that nationalism has thus far utterly failed at stopping or even slowing down the Zionist project yet MLs’ extreme moralism and utopian idealism sees them upholding a demonstrable failure rather than their own class interests.
Better everyone in Palestine and Iran die than betray the nation to communism, so says the ML
>>2343819how is resisting an extermination campaign enacted under blood and soil claims by zionists fascism?
i know you will keep dodging the question btw, the purpose of me repeating it over and over is to make other people aware of how pointless it is to try and argue with someone like you so that they realize you need to be put to death like i've already said multiple times before
>>2343822> how is resisting an extermination campaign enacted under blood and soil claims by zionists fascism?How are you “resisting” the genocide in Gaza?
How is upholding a proletarian internationalist position “supporting” the genocide in Gaza?
If you think Proletarians are mindless mongrels with no revolutionary potential compared to Holy National Peoples can you validate this stance and can you do so using class analysis and the material positions of classes in society?
You understand that you don’t need to be a communist to find genocide revolting (not that MLs really do to begin with) and thus your moralizing is inherently valueless from a Marxist standpoint?
You mentioned me “dodging the question”, but the obvious answer is that I am a communist and not an ethno-nationalist and am not stupid enough to see myself, a random proletarian, as muh cell in the national organism, I don’t need to further validate my opposition to my own state regime because I’m not defending it to begin with, MLoids actually ARE very explicitly defending bourgeois regimes and appeal very openly to moralism and liberal shibboleths like human rights and national sovereignty to do so, so I am asking how they validate their stances as Marxist, if they can’t, why should any Marxist countenance the aggressive liberalism of “Marxist”-“Leninists”?
>The more I debated with them the more familiar I became with their argumentative tactics. At the outset they counted upon the stupidity of their opponents, but when they got so entangled that they could not find a way out they played the trick of acting as innocent simpletons. Should they fail, in spite of their tricks of logic, they acted as if they could not understand the counter arguments and bolted away to another field of discussion. They would lay down truisms and platitudes; and, if you accepted these, then they were applied to other problems and matters of an essentially different nature from the original theme. If you faced them with this point they would escape again, and you could not bring them to make any precise statement. Whenever one tried to get a firm grip on any of these apostles one's hand grasped only jelly and slime which slipped through the fingers and combined again into a solid mass a moment afterwards. If your adversary felt forced to give in to your argument, on account of the observers present, and if you then thought that at last you had gained ground, a surprise was in store for you on the following day. The Jew would be utterly oblivious to what had happened the day before, and he would start once again by repeating his former absurdities, as if nothing had happened. Should you become indignant and remind him of yesterday's defeat, he pretended astonishment and could not remember anything, except that on the previous day he had proved that his statements were correct. Sometimes I was dumbfounded. I do not know what amazed me the more–the abundance of their verbiage or the artful way in which they dressed up their falsehoods. I gradually came to hate them.
>>2343832I answered your question pretty directly when I asked if you can explain how you are resisting Israel.
Do you mean you shill for nationalism on the internet? If that’s the case, how can you claim this meaningfully resists Israel when nationalism has thus far failed to impede the Israeli project for a century now?
Does watching Palestinians get bombed get you hard because you feel like they’re finally dying with dignity?
>>2343836>I answered your question pretty directly when I asked […]huh?
answer the question: how is resisting an extermination campaign enacted under blood and soil claims by zionists fascism?
you claimed this, explain how that is
>>2343848moshi moshi, kaik-sama
how is resisting an extermination campaign enacted under blood and soil claims by zionists fascism?
>>2343852i have no idea why you're trying the bolsheviker-than-thou angle when you're literally calling me mloid and denouncing anti-colonial struggle
one more time: how is resisting an extermination campaign enacted under blood and soil claims by zionists fascism?
>>2343857my question has nothing to do with iran, though
how is resisting an extermination campaign enacted under blood and soil claims by zionists fascism? (<- this is about palestine)
>>2343895A better question is why aren’t communists
And why do modern honkies in the West that dare call themselves MLs shill for the exact states and militant orgs that destroyed the parties these same MLs might have shilled for had they not been annihilated by tankies’ favorite nationalists, theists, and fascists
>>2343924I will defend the economic sovereignty of others because by preventing the expansion of the financial capital of imperialist capitalism, imperialist capitalism will be weakened to maintain order in the world and if this hegemony that is maintained collapses, this will facilitate a socialist revolution to nationalize private companies in your country, where American and European imperialist hegemony will not be able to sanction this socialist state in the future, allowing it to consolidate and acquire economic self-sufficiency.
Marx tolerated the separation of Ireland as an alternative if there is no union between English and Irish workers due to English chauvinism, therefore continuing to be a subjugated and exploited people would not be tolerated so that the Irish have a more equal relationship with the English independently so that a future socialist federation can be formed. At the same time, Marx never tolerated the financing of liberals against the so-called Russian despotism in the Crimean War, therefore imperialist capitalist financing abroad must be opposed without exception.
Now in the case of the Palestinians, you have a population that has never had economic sovereignty over energy, water, food or the entry and exit of goods as has always been the case in Gaza, which is why there is the right to fight and Iran also has these rights if nuclear energy is denied to this country.
I will leave a few quotes for those individuals confused about the concept of capitalist imperialism and national liberation movements to expose the opportunists here.
First, let's look at Lenin's definition of capitalist imperialism:
<But very brief definitions, although convenient, for they sum up the main points, are nevertheless inadequate, since we have to deduce from them some especially important features of the phenomenon that has to be defined. And so, without forgetting the conditional and relative value of all definitions in general, which can never embrace all the concatenations of a phenomenon in its full development, we must give a definition of imperialism that will include the following five of its basic features:
<(1) the concentration of production and capital has developed to such a high stage that it has created monopolies which play a decisive role in economic life; (2) the merging of bank capital with industrial capital, and the creation, on the basis of this “finance capital,” of a financial oligarchy; (3) the export of capital as distinguished from the export of commodities acquires exceptional importance; (4) the formation of international monopolist capitalist associations which share the world among themselves and (5) the territorial division of the whole world among the biggest capitalist powers is completed. Imperialism is capitalism at that stage of development at which the dominance of monopolies and finance capital is established; in which the export of capital has acquired pronounced importance; in which the division of the world among the international trusts has begun, in which the division of all territories of the globe among the biggest capitalist powers has been completed.
<Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism, 1916, VII. IMPERIALISM AS A SPECIAL STAGE OF CAPITALISMhttps://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/ch07.htmI will give another quote as an example of self-determination of nations in Lenin's time, where we can see that Palestinians do not have economic sovereignty, energy, water, or the entry and exit of goods without Israel's approval, which has always led to immense unemployment among the population in Gaza, and therefore a violent reaction is logical due to Israel's subjugation, which at the same time rejects the simplest bourgeois rights of this population:
<In this respect, countries must be divided into three main types:
<First, the advanced capitalist countries of Western Europe and the United States of America. In these countries the bourgeois, progressive, national movements came to an end long ago. Every one of these “great” nations oppresses other nations in the colonies and within its own country. The tasks of the proletariat of these ruling nations are the same as those of the proletariat in England in the nineteenth century in relation to Ireland.[3]
<Secondly, Eastern Europe: Austria, the Balkans and particularly Russia. Here it was the twentieth century that particularly developed the bourgeois-democratic national movements and intensified the national struggle. The tasks of the proletariat in these countries—in regard to the consummation of their bourgeois-democratic reformation, as well as in regard to assisting the socialist revolution in other countries—cannot be achieved unless it champions the right of nations to self-determination. In this connection the most difficult but most important task is to merge the class struggle of the workers in the oppressing nations with the class struggle of the workers in the oppressed nations.
<Thirdly, the semi-colonial countries, like China, Persia, Turkey, and all the colonies, which have a combined population amounting to a billion. In these countries the bourgeois-democratic movements have either hardly begun, or are far from having been completed. Socialists must not only demand the unconditional and immediate liberation of the colonies without compensation—and this demand in its political expression signifies nothing more nor less than the recognition of the right to self-determination—but must render determined support to the more revolutionary elements in the bourgeois-democratic movements for national liberation in these countries and assist their rebellion—and if need be, their revolutionary war—against the imperialist powers that oppress them.
<V. I. Lenin, 1916, The Socialist Revolution and the Right of Nations to Self-Determination, Three Types of Countries in Relation to Self-Determination of Nationshttps://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/jan/x01.htmNow the text that talks about wars of national liberation for opportunists who want to finance the arms industry and the hegemony of financial capital, its puppets and agents that enrich several capitalists with US hegemony instead of cutting off this money abroad or that the war of national liberation is only about fighting feudalism and therefore cannot exist in current times with capitalist imperialism:
<In short: a war between imperialist Great Powers (i.e., powers that oppress a whole number of nations and enmesh them in dependence on finance capital, etc.), or in alliance with the Great Powers, is an imperialist war. Such is the war of 1914–16. And in this war “defence of the fatherland” is a deception, an attempt to justify the war.
<A war against imperialist, i.e., oppressing, powers by oppressed (for example, colonial) nations is a genuine national war. It is possible today too. “Defence of the fatherland” in a war waged by an oppressed nation against a foreign oppressor is not a deception. Socialists are not opposed to “defence of the fatherland” in such a war.
<V. I. Lenin, A Caricature of Marxism and Imperialist Economism, 1916, The Marxist Attitude Towards War and “Defence of the Fatherland”https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/carimarx/1.htm#v23pp64h-029Now the text for those who say that every war is inter-imperialist:
<Advanced European (and American) capitalism has entered a new era of imperialism. Does it follow from that that only imperialist wars are now possible? Any such contention would be absurd. It would reveal inability to distinguish a given concrete phenomenon from the sum total of variegated phenomena possible in a given era.
<V. I. Lenin, A Caricature of Marxism and Imperialist Economism, 1916, “Our Understanding of the New Era”https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/carimarx/2.htm#v23pp64h-036 >>2343805>proletarians in Iran stand to gain more from being nuked by the Israeli regime in defense of the Iranian bourgeoisie than a revolutionary movement that overthrows all the governments of the region including Israel’sagain no one is saying this. the communists in iran call for that and have full support in doing so. they also correctly understand the material conditions and are not calling for revolutionary overthrow at this time and instead for organizing the working masses into a force capable of doing the needful before enacting their plans, which is correct.
no one supports the Iranian bourgeoisie or the regime over and above the actual movement they just agree with the movement that they are not ready and will get crushed if they do it right now, and will probably alienate a lot of people who will see it as foreign interference or suicidal and will be pushed towards the regime and endorse crackdowns.
>>2343816>live in concert with the class of people who stand capable of ending imperialist wars and genocide for goodcapable? or potential? who are these people that are capable?
>>2343828>I am a communist and not an ethno-nationalistIran is multi-national
>>2343924>shill for the exact states and militant orgsWhich states and militant orgs? Yemen and hamas? You think local communists dont support them as well?
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