I feel labor vouchers restrict my choices on what I can get. For example, what if I have to choose between 2 items but I want both, such as food ingredients? What would happen to digital goods? I would expect all videogames and cinema to become public (free). But what if I can only get 1 videogame per month? How would this work?
Since game devs and artists in generals have their needs met, I suppose most content would be freely available? Similar to mods in videogames.
Also this voucher would have to be rather plentiful. What if I want to travel to another city, stay at a hotel a few nights, eat out, etc? This labor voucher sounds rather magical.
I prefer the anarchist-communism described by Kropotkin: labor is based on needs and free association, and access to good and services is based on the willing work of the people. So instead of a voucher, you live according to what people around you produce, with both its prosperity and limitations
79 posts and 14 image replies omitted.>>2364784> I feel labor vouchers restrict my choices on what I can getThey’re supposed to
Labor vouchers specifically exist to change the relations of societal production from those centered around exchange to those centered on need accounted for by labor time
>>2365570The concept of deindustrialization is something of a misnomer and red meat for the manufacturing bourgeoisie to get masses of the proletariat behind their program, on a deeper level the capitalistically advanced countries are still highly industrialized, they just have the world’s most advanced productive technologies and technics, which require a far lower share of society’s labor plugged into their productive cycle to meet the needs of profit; not only that, but the globalization of production has always been a fact of capital’s historical development, the “deindustrialization” of one region is the development of another
>>2365635I don’t think Hudson is an antisemite, I do believe he’s another retarded cunt desperately trying to save the volksgemeinschaft and the national bourgeoisie while pretending to be a socialist; it’s okay though, since 95% of self-described “Marxists” are more like socdems using the Marxist label for clout
NTA but I hate capitalist apologists that pretend to be Marxists like Hudson
>>2366039>There are only two options, enslaving proletarians (liberalism) or enslaving proletarians (liberalism)Actual ML discourse
I’m surprised MLs call themselves Marxists at all considering he was an internationalist jew disloyal to his nation and volk
>>2366039absolutely delusional. this is the same kind of thick skulled idealism insist that has christians insist that their particular sect is the TRUE church of saint peter
at least try to pretend like its a dispute over efficacy of strategy & soundness of analysis instead of a question of which doctrine marks you as one of the saved
>>2364823>Socialism is when you’re a wage slave, nah, actual slave worked at gun point on the national volk’s Fatherland’s people’s rice paddy for the crime of wanting to play a shitty game instead of uhhh killing yourself for being white or something Lmao MLs are legit just Nazis that hate
white people “westerners” at this point 😂😂😂
Pathetic cope ideology if you’re a westoid
>>2366551>The concept of deindustrialization is something of a misnomer and red meat for the manufacturing bourgeoisie to get masses of the proletariat behind their program, it really isn't. 1960 a lot of people worked unionized commodity production jobs in factories. now most people work service sector jobs that aren't unionized. The unionization rate is a fraction of what it ws before and so are the commodity production jobs.
> on a deeper level the capitalistically advanced countries are still highly industrializedAmerica doesn't even produce chips anymore. What is this cope?
> they just have the world’s most advanced productive technologies and technics, which require a far lower share of society’s labor plugged into their productive cycle to meet the needs of profitOh OK then why have we been de-proletarianized and shuffled off into service sector and office jobs? Why are so many people relying on petty bourgeois aspirations and side husttles? The whole imperial core is so declassed it's crazy.
> not only that, but the globalization of production has always been a fact of capital’s historical development, the “deindustrialization” of one region is the development of anotherOK well it's still imperialism and it postpones revolution in the core by declassing the core and shuffling them off into service industries. the only industries left are WAR industries which are used to maintain hegemonic status. This makes everyone complicit and counter revolutionary. I want this to stop. I don't want to be seen as the 21st century wehrmacht out of guilt by association. I want the jobs to come back and I want the exploitation to end. But I'm not le real marxist. Hudson is le antisemite (lazy shibboleth uttered while US-backed israelis slaughter starving palestinians gathered to pick up crumbs scattered by fake aid orgs staffed with burger mercenaries)
>>2367771> it really isn't. 1960 a lot of people worked unionized commodity production jobs in factories. now most people work service sector jobs that aren't unionized. The unionization rate is a fraction of what it ws before and so are the commodity production jobs. This was covered when I discussed the advancement of the productive forces of society, we do not need everyone working factory jobs to produce
>America doesn't even produce chips anymore. What is this cope?American industries absolutely produce chips, but they do so outside of the US, and what production occurs within the country is highly automated, we don’t have 1920s factories anymore because it isn’t 1925, we can have robotic arms produce things, we don’t need line workers for that. America has factories, but they cannot employ most of the population while remaining profitable, and they do not need a large workforce to function. Increasingly even warehouses are being highly automated, Amazon employs as many automated robotic tools as humans now, and they just run warehouses. The great struggle of the modern communist is his immense backwards facing fascination with past eras of capitalism, the future isn’t to return to the line factory.
> Oh OK then why have we been de-proletarianized and shuffled off into service sector and office jobs? Why are so many people relying on petty bourgeois aspirations and side husttles? The whole imperial core is so declassed it's crazy.The systemic production of surplus populations and wasted labor power (from the standpoint of profit) are necessary outcomes of the need to maintain profits. Efficient use of labor time =/= profitable use of labor time; capital requires a means to control the populations that cannot be plugged into profitable endeavors, besides which, the great mass of potential labor power must also be utilized (wasted) to manage itself
Capitalism is a system riven with contradiction, this is basic marxism at that point
> OK well it's still imperialism and it postpones revolution in the core by declassing the core and shuffling them off into service industries. the only industries left are WAR industries which are used to maintain hegemonic status. This makes everyone complicit and counter revolutionary. I want this to stop. I don't want to be seen as the 21st century wehrmacht out of guilt by association. I want the jobs to come back and I want the exploitation to end. But I'm not le real marxist. Hudson is le antisemite (lazy shibboleth uttered while US-backed israelis slaughter starving palestinians gathered to pick up crumbs scattered by fake aid orgs staffed with burger mercenaries)Lmao you chose to funnel yourself into the retarded conclusion that most of the proletariat of your nation are your enemy simply because much of that population is now surplus, it isn’t a rational analysis of the situation. You should abandon your dual pity for workers outside the imperial core and sympathy for the capitalist past if you want to consider a truly revolutionary future.
>>2368036I mean a communist society may not really have people relying on escapism to feel good, because life would no longer be so awful that visually and virtually interacting with an entirely false “grand adventure” is no longer necessary for “leisure”, which will no longer be a cordoned off part of life held against a drudgery known as work
The problem is thinking life will necessarily be shit the way life under capitalism is shit and palliatives like alcohol and escapism will still be sought after; which isn’t to say such things will be banned like MLoids (anti-worker red moralists essentially) would claim, but rather, they may not be produced because people may no longer desire them. Regardless, I wouldn’t be surprised if the labor time necessary to produce either product is much lower with more advanced productive forces and a more efficient usage of labor time; but even then, that is dependent on if a substantial amount of people desire such things
>>2368050>This is a hypothetical about the early days of JDPON or DOTP, one in which we still need people working 12 hours a day hard agricultural labor.Nonsensical proposition that emerges out of the MLoid belief that semi-feudal countries still predominantly exist, that the proletarian revolution will actually be a series of nationalist revolutions that form an international alliance of national states (rather than an international offense by the proletarian party itself), and that a key moment of the revolutionary struggle is “revenge” not only against the capitalists, but also the proletarians that dared to be born in the capitalistically advanced nations rather than neocolonies.
The DOTP =/= a fascistic dictatorship over the proletariat; you can feel free to ignore MLs
>Also your critique of video games applies to all fiction, indeed all art in general.It isn’t a critique, it’s an observation from which I built a hypothetical, namely, that people may no longer feel encouraged to produce and play video games if life is no longer encountered as an alienated endeavor beset by “necessity”. I also wouldn’t say all art is escapist in nature, I wouldn’t even say fantastical, imaginative art is inherently escapist, I would contend a lot of capitalist art is specifically designed to allow people to mentally escape the general conditions of subjection that define their day to day lives, that doesn’t mean all art must necessarily produced for such a purpose. Consider the fact that capitalist society specifically cordoned off products made specifically to be “artistic” yet strips from the majority of mankind’s products the notion that they in anyway represent people’s creative capacities
Part of it involves the immense challenge even communists face in genuinely imagining a society that is different from the existing one
>>2368062The Soviet Union chose to destroy itself to gain full access to western markets and contemporary MLs vacillate between doing nothing, opportunistically tailing protest movements, and trying to feel vicarious power through the wealth and prominence of capitalist states such as China, Russia, Iran, Cuba, etc.
MLs fedjacketing their critics to ensure “Marxism” remains a backwards facing, navel gazing pseudo-movement accomplishes more for Washington than Langley could ever hope to, keep your copes to yourself
>>2368071It’s true that nobody chooses to be a wage slave; the point of communism is to abolish the “necessity” that produces subjection
Of course “communists” will never get anywhere so long as they openly and flagrantly tell their fellow proletarians they fully intend to force them to mine unsustainable materials and labor for 16 hours at the barrel of a gun. I genuinely think most MLs will gain more of what they personally desire (power) if they simply join up with fascist or social democratic movements that currently stand a better chance at acquiring power in most countries than communists do and who ultimately promote a political regime that looks identical to what most self-described “socialists” mistakenly believe Communism to be.
>>2368081In capitalism, labor is suffering
But ask yourself, what is
inherently miserable about mining a rock, or doing labor on a production line?
>>2368103 (Me)
The biggest reason for this sort of misconception were the underdeveloped postrevolutionary societies of the 20th Century, which called themselves socialist, and are worshipped by many contemporary (largely ineffectual and inactive) self-described socialists, but whose economies were centered around production for exchange, the accumulation of surplus value, and the necessary extraction of said surplus from politically dominated waged laborers
>>2368118I’ve done both those things, have you? For real? Hard work isn’t inherently suffering. That’s the problem with red liberals. They have no vision. They consistently remind you “Labor under capitalism is suffering!” and then, if they are especially intelligent, will reference previous modes of production. They cannot adequately explain the horrors of hard (as in, physically taxing) labor if it were to be parceled out efficient solely to meet people’s desires and needs, rather than the requirements of self-expanding value; what they mean is, “I don’t want to work a 16 hour shift in the people’s mine to receive my compensation in the form of the people’s wage in a job I do not control and have commanded down to me by higherups in the social division of labor”; but at that point they’re actually stating “I don’t want to live in capitalism” and refusing to understand that what they are describing, is capitalism
Even in capitalism, compared to other jobs I have done, physical labor was the most tolerable despite being the lowest paid; but not all people are identical either, people like me enjoy seeing the direct products of our labor in the form of an actual physically changed product, I hated jobs where I couldn’t even comprehend what I was doing aside from increasing shareholder value by shuffling products around or indoctrinating kids to the state (I have done many jobs)
Why do red liberals typically assume, if you do not see labor as an evil, that you haven’t worked?
>>2368170>Its a really shitty idea but classical economists couldn't understand thisclassical economists didnt propose the notion of labor vouchers. they began from the ideas of the early communists josiah warren and robert owen, as a way to quantify exchange in an ethical manner. marx later suggests labor "certificates" as a medium of exchange in a future cooperative society during the first phases of communism, where each man will receive what he gives toward the public wealth fund. many technocrats later on conceived of a similar idea, where energy expended in production should be measured according to one's input of the economy. paul cockshott also holds to this view, i believe.
the alternative vision of the classical economists is simply market equilibrium, where labor values will meet each other in exchange by the balancing of effectual demand to supply (a process which smith says is inevitable, but hastened by "liberty" in the market). marx's issue is that he sees the ways in which capital accumulation sustains indefinite cycles of disequilibrium, leading to general crises. keynes then attempts to resolve this in his own terms, by correcting the internal errors of capital's marginal disutility.
>>2369445I think your missing the point
Why would anyone care?
That’s why I said, why would you take more than you immediately need, if no one will stop you from acquiring more when you need it?
Hoarding will only inconvenience you as an individual, not the collective
we already have a contemporary analog of labor vouchers in today's markets; namely, store coupons. these are tokens which limit our consumption and have a time-frame which render them necessarily superfluous media of exchange. this can be likened to a form of barter, since we are staking a claim for a specific product, rather than having access to the body of social wealth. some stores also offer alternative options like store credit or point systems based on past consumption.
now, a question i always consider is this one. would you rather be paid in wages, or double the amount of your wages in store coupons? if a capitalist was paying people in coupons, they would be arrested, even if it was double the value of cash. this says something about the justice we place on money as a property rightfully earned. in gamestop for example, they always offer more store credit than cash, showing how credit is less valuable, even if it has a greater claim to stocked goods. the very access to social wealth thus entails a value of its own, as mediated universality.
again, vouchers are a form of regulated barter, since they cannot overcome the double coincidence of wants except by a conditional time-frame, which represents the holding of perishable goods (rather than preserving value in imperishable material). it is a pre-metallic strategy which leads to pre-metallic results. the frustration of vouchers then reveals itself as an artificial inefficiency in exchange.
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