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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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Not reporting is bourgeois


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I feel labor vouchers restrict my choices on what I can get. For example, what if I have to choose between 2 items but I want both, such as food ingredients? What would happen to digital goods? I would expect all videogames and cinema to become public (free). But what if I can only get 1 videogame per month? How would this work?

Since game devs and artists in generals have their needs met, I suppose most content would be freely available? Similar to mods in videogames.

Also this voucher would have to be rather plentiful. What if I want to travel to another city, stay at a hotel a few nights, eat out, etc? This labor voucher sounds rather magical.

I prefer the anarchist-communism described by Kropotkin: labor is based on needs and free association, and access to good and services is based on the willing work of the people. So instead of a voucher, you live according to what people around you produce, with both its prosperity and limitations

bro this is too obscure, just post in /political economy/ next time and you'll get a 2000 word response from the Adam Smith anon

wuttif…………..

>>2364790
Obscure? How can we convince people to adopt socialism when we have no economic plan?

labor voucher = proudhon, marx refutation, etc. etc.

> you live according to what people around you produce
fuckign parasitism then?


>>2364809
No because you are producing too. But according to your own will and conditions. So if one day you produce/work less because you want to (while fulfilling your responsibilities), then whoever benefits from your work will have no options but to accept whatever you produced that day

>AAAHH I CAN'T PLAY BING BING WAHOO IN SOCIALISM, PLEASE HELP ME BREAD MAN!!!
Shut up Westernoid crakkker with your treats and get your ass back to the rice fields, we have a revolution to feed

>>2364803
welcome to /leftypol/, where you can find 1000 people who want to talk about their 1000 different opinions on the russo-ukraine war, and sometimes a few people who want to talk about the economy

anyway the problem with the anarchist-communist method youre suggesting is that production at any sizable scale needs a ton of organization and accounting. thats what the labor-voucher is supposed to provide. with digital its less of an issue, but what about for say the things that make digital possible, like basic energy resources. in this scenario if the local hydroelectric plant agrees amongst themselves to work less hours in the spring because lower energy demands, that can be run up the chain in consultation with other industries relying on the plant and they can figure out whether itll work for them or cause serious production bottlenecks. but on the side of individual use, people using computers/lights/AC/etc etc creates an additional demand that is much harder to account for in the same way as industrial management where you can have select representatives in scaleable meetings reporting on decisions/negotiating terms. what if it rains for a week and everybodys inside on the computer, and theres additional water pumps & sewage machinery running, will that cause an outage? labor vouchers let you track consumption habits so you can predict that kind of thing. maybe most of the year connection to public power grid is totally free (not requiring vouchers), but in circumstances where max power output isnt strictly necessary theres some small cost in labor vouchers for using above a certain average of energy use. you can decide whether or not you want to be home on the computer all day or go out and eat at a nicer kitchen with out of season fruit or get newer fashion of clothes, and how much you do one of those over the others would be tracked by records of labor voucher use. if it turns out in april more people stay in side and spend vouchers on energy than people opt to use them for other things, the production targets can be recalibrated.

thats the reasoning, anyway, and the problem of shortages its supposed to address. obviously there are issues that arise, and there is certainly a sense in which this just functions like money, in that production is oriented towards a presumption of consumer-side cost-benefit analysis. main difference being that labor vouchers eventually expire, cant be inherited, and cant be traded for labor-power outside of the democratic organization of production.

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>>2364803
>convince
brother I tried "convincing" people, and not petty bourgeoisie or anything like that, but honest to god imperial core workers in shitty dead end jobs, and I got the same shit over and over again

socialism 1 gorillion dead
socialism starves
socialism is the same as natsoc/fascism
socialism is when gubberment duz stuff
socialism is liberal democrats
socialism is idpol
socialism is bandaid on capitalism


people don't get "convinced" by socialism through debate. their life under capitalism becomes so unlivable that they have a revolution and follow a vanguard party whether they're educated enough to know what socialism actually is or not. Do you think most of the orthodox christian peasants who sided with the bolsheviks over the white army understood the questions of proletarian dictatorship? no they just sided with the people who promised to end WW1 and then they sided with those same people again because denikin and kolchak were raping and pillaging the countryside in the name of restoring the bourgeoisie to power.

>>2364784
Elon Musk vs Donald Trump is a false dichotomy. Both teams are the same team, they are both friends with eachother, their systems are integrated with eachother, they benefit from the same systems.

If you want improvements you must not pick either side and you must not let these 2 sides diminish the strength of forces which fight for your wellbeing and wealth.

>I feel labor vouchers restrict my choices on what I can get
That's the point yugha

>>2364815
>according to your will
and if my will is to produce nothing at all?

>>2364903
>and if my will is to produce nothing at all?
Labor camp.
>>2364809
>fuckign parasitism then?
It would be parasitism if it doesn't have planning.

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>will I still get Witcher 5 under communism?
>"but artists…"
>Kropotkin petit-bourgeois socialism (see pic)
Another anarchist classic. Anyway, theoretically vouchers act the same as money but the main difference is that it cannot be circulated or exchanged.

>>2364784
On the other hand, labour vouchers cannot be stolen and cannot be used to to commodify things such as sex.

i dont understand the labour vouchers benefit over rationing coupons

>For example, what if I have to choose between 2 items but I want both, such as food ingredients?
If some item combo exceeds your budget, that's how it is. Whether the budget is cash money or labor vouchers or a whole collection of voucher systems for different consumption categories. We can do without prices, but then some sort of other rationing is necessary like per head and week, rationing by lottery, or by some committee judging who needs something the most. We can't do away with physical limits of the universe.

>Since game devs and artists in generals have their needs met, I suppose most content would be freely available? Similar to mods in videogames.

Yes, it's the position of e. g. Paul Cockshott (who is for labor vouchers) that software should be free.

>What if I want to travel to another city, stay at a hotel a few nights, eat out, etc?

That's just a repeat of your first question, illustrated with a different example.

>I prefer the anarchist-communism described by Kropotkin

Go to the thread >>>/edu/19860 and ctrl-f for Kropotkin.

>>2364946
If it's not personalized, it is still money, but specific, otherwise, the vouchers aren't limited by rationing.

>>2364922
Spanish anarchists managed an industrial society too. But in a horizontal organization, not authoritarian.

I understand it can’t be exchanged but the voucher must have some limits. These limits are unclear.

>>2364973
>Spanish anarchists managed
managing is something that gets called authoritarian whenever MLs do it
>an industrial society too. But in a horizontal organization, not authoritarian.
I don't hate anarchists but I don't understand the fetishism for the horizontal. the whole point of centralization is that both vertical and horizontal integration of industry (i.e. monopoly, whether owned by the working class or otherwise) scales better and produces more. Decentralization and anti-planning are just a vector for the re-emergence of capitalist competietion

>>2364790
the /political economy/ thread is just neo-proudhonists peddling petite bourgeois woo

>>2365506
not convinced that's the case at all unless of course you confuse the one Adam Smith anon for literally everyone in that thread (he does post the most)

>>2365508
there's also the michael "it's those goddamn (((financiers)))" hudson shill and keynes shill, so that's 3

unless they're all the same person

>>2364846
This is basically true, during the civil war both the reds and the whites were doing crazy massacres, rapes, forced conscriptions, etc (with the Whites being more into doing pogroms also), but the illiterate farmers did side with the Bolsheviks by and large because they simply had a better program, that benefited the peasants directly. Unlike the Whites who offered basically nothing except lets go back to aristocratic times lmao

It all had little to nothing to do with people outside the vanguard party being convinced of communist theory

>>2365512
>>2365508
Where is the political economy thread? I'm a friedrich list fag that wants to speak to the adam smith fag

>>2365522
https://leftypol.org/leftypol/res/2298757.html
>>2365512
Oh you're the guy who keeps calling Michael Hudson antisemitic and refusing to elaborate. What a clown you are. Especially in this political climate where false accusations of antisemitism are regularly used to silence people who oppose the genocide of Palestinians.

>>2365512
Keynes anon and Smith anon are the same guy

>>2364961

I was bewildered that nobody else bothered to give a proper answer to OP's question.Thank you anon for this proper response.

I myself was a bit confused by OP's first formulation of his question at least because his hypothetical labour vouchers for a full week's worth of work would surely be able to afford him several different food ingredients for his diet for that same week (Unless there was some kind of severe disaster that required extreme food rationing).

Still it seems you managed to intuit that his problem was that labour vouchers limited his personal consumption to some extent (which as you point out, would be the case in any functioning economy that operates within physical limits).

Is there any way a labor voucher/ time system can account for resource use/ environmental impact? Also I do understand there has been some theory of including training time in labor time but isn't there just some types of work that require significantly more effort (surgery/ hard manual labor vs front desk/ security guard) that should be accounted for? I understand increased automation and less rigid careers could help with that, but I think there would still be a big gap

>>2365528
yeah he just says that the problem is not capitalism, but financierism, and upholds based productive industrial capital over bad evil "unproductive" financial capital

what could it possibly mean

>>2365503

>Decentralization and anti-planning are just a vector for the re-emergence of capitalist competietion.


Its incredible how many don't understand this basic fact of marxist political economy.

>>2365535

For training time, there are a few ways to account for it, including having all training be salaried or having the training time added as a fraction on top of each labour hour performed (estimated by dividing training time by typical lifetime work).

For other costs in excess of labour time in different jibs, adjustments can be made on different ways:

For example in physically demanding jobs, extra special rations/vouchers/tokens can be issued for accessing more calories & nutrients, as well as gym & spa treatment tokens.

For mentally taxing jobs, a shorter work week combined to partially paid time off and/or special tokens/vouchers for relaxation/vacation centers can be issued.

These extra specific vouchers could be designed to operate like theatre tickets.

>>2365536
>yeah he just says that the problem is not capitalism, but financierism
not what he says at all. you confuse his specialization with his political opinion. he focuses on the financial side of capitalism because that is where he literally worked in his early years and he contrasts this with industrial capitalism because he lives in the united states where the consequences of financialization and de-industrialization are apparent to people and a cause of great controversy. Your constant implying that Michael Hudson is antisemitic because he talks about financial capitalism is a result of your own apparent belief of the antisemitic trope that finance capitalism is inherently Jewish. But he regularly points out that it was Reagan and Thatcher who ushered in the neoliberal era. He never even tries to connect this with "international jewry" in any way. At best you could at least accuse him of being a "dengoid" or something for going on Ben Norton's podcast a lot but no you're doing this bizarre bullshit where you claim he's antisemitic. I have listened to the man talk for hours, sometimes with Jewish people like Richard Wolff, and I have never once gotten the sense that Michael Hudson is an anti-semite. This is just clown shit.

>>2365550

You can find a video of him in a conference discussing with Andrew Kliman and Alan Freeman, who are both jews.

>>2365536
like honestly where do you get off accusing Michael Hudson of being antisemitic just for talking about where he literally worked. It's so bizarre.

>>2365512
watch this one if you have time and tell me if you come away with the same impression of him

https://www.amazon.com/Americas-Protectionist-Takeoff-1815-1914-Michael/dp/3980846687
daily reminder that michael hudson wrote a book about the american system
michael hudson is hamiliton carey clay friedrich list gang

>>2365564
>protectionist takeoff
this is the same thing a lot of people talk about. Ha-Joon Chang talks about this in Kicking Away The Ladder

>>2365565
ha joon chang is based too

>>2365550
>>2365536
it is actually hysteria to suggest hudson is somehow anti-jewish. he is not retarded he knows finance follows from capital, and many people, even actual idiots, manage just fime being anti-finance without caring about jews. realistically there are probably more full zionists in the world that are nominally against finance capital, if only bc most zionists are american evangelicals who think the economy should be based on gold

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>>2365568
I think that other anon who was complaining about how it's "antisemitic" to contrast "financial" and "industrial" capitalism is completely tuned out to the consequences of de-industrialization. The imperial core de-industrialized precisely to save capitalism by decimating the industrial proletariat and postponing revolution on a national scale. Especially in the United States. Lenin regularly says that a highly industrialized state capitalism is precisely the prerequisite for socialism because it is this economic base that the proletariat seizes, and it is the bourgeois state that they smash to pieces. What we saw the bourgeoisie do in the imperial core is the opposite, they preserved the bourgeois state but smashed the industrial base of society, in order to outsource, in order to impose austerity, in order to bust unions, because they felt that socialist revolution was just around the corner. When Michael Hudson and people like him notice this, anon (and I'm being charitable) misunderstood and assumed that Michael Hudson is saying that industrial capitalism is "good" and finance capitaism is "bad" but really the Leninist takeaway is that industrial capitalism is a prerequisite for Socialism and deindustrialization postpones proletarian revolution by temporarily reversing development on the national scale in order to export capital elsewhere.

>>2365570
I dont have any disagreements. What you are saying is 100 percent correct


>>2365569
>he is not retarded he knows finance follows from capital
https://michael-hudson.com/2018/08/life-thought-an-autobiography/
apparently he is retarded by your own reckoning because he specifically counterposes industrial capital and financial capital and goes against marx:
>This way of getting the economic surplus is not the way that Marx described it as being obtained under capitalism, by employing labor to produce goods to sell at a profit. It was by debt and taking interest in ultimately foreclosing in land, which was the real objective.

>So I spent the next maybe three years writing the first draft of what became the book that’s being published in a few months, “… and forgive them their debts”: Credit and Redemption from Bronze Age Finance to the Jubilee Year. I submitted it to the University of California Press. They sent it to scholars to referee, who said that it was impossible that debts could be cancelled. Their argument was that if debts were cancelled, who would lend money? That’s what Rabbi Hillel argued in the Judaic tradition.

fucking (((Rabbi Hillel))), hate that guy. doesn't hudson also self-id as a roman? rly makes me think

>So I wrote a study that Canada didn’t have to borrow money abroad for the provinces to invest domestically. They could create their own money. Basically, what I wrote was the first example of what’s now called Modern Monetary Theory, that governments can create their own money, their own credit. They don’t need a foreign-currency backing for it, and so all basically the same circular flow analysis that I’d developed from my history of thought. a Physiocratic analysis.

Oh, so he's also one of those guys lol

A former CIA spook now peddling reheated proudhonism and presenting an account of history where shadowy spooky elites manipulate da finances and refuse to cancel debts (!!! 😱), no mention of class struggle, decenters the wage relation

and yeah, I bet he doesn't say "I HATE DA JOOOS" anywhere in his written text, but you know, most smart antisemites don't either.
It's kinda like if somebody started ranting about the gold standard and raw milk, it just makes you go hm…, you know

>>2365583
sir why is it upside down SIR

>>2365611
never mind I forgot my browser lets me rotate PDFs anyway


>>2365596
>A former CIA spook
a former employee of chase manhattan yes, but no evidence of him being a CIA spook. this is the same false allegation you made in the other thread
>now peddling reheated proudhonism
mischaracterisation
>and presenting an account of history where shadowy spooky elites manipulate da finances
mischaracterisation
>and refuse to cancel debts (!!! 😱)
so?
>no mention of class struggle
he mentions class war and class struggle regularly. like listen to his 3 hour talk with richard wolff linked above
>decenters the wage relation
he talks about the current historical context of the US where the FIRE sector is more prominent than the industrial sector and even in silicon valley we see a movement away from commodities that are sold once for profit (like software on a compact disc) and towards commodities that are sold several times as a "subscription service" (rent). This is the actual nature of the de-industrialized US economy. the wage relation is still central in places like china but in the US you have shit like the gig economy where people are paid on commission per individual job task, a huge service sector where socially necessary labor time and commodity production aren't happening, and where commodity production is happening, it's often digital commodities that are rented out. Sorry his analysis of capital is contemporary. If analyizing US capitalism as it actually exists today is "antisemitic reheated proudhonism" idk what to tell you.

>>2365548
Isn’t this the division of labor Marx talks about? He said, as many others, that this division is what upholds class structure. The reason a doctor earns more and has higher status than a farmer, although growing food is hard and necessary for society.

Regardless of profession everyone must earn the same, otherwise we keep the class system. People will want to be a doctor for extra privileges rather than helping the sick. This may look strange now but can be normalized over time and education.

>>2365535
Regarding your question, I think what we need to is to rotate workers in heavily demanding jobs. This means less working days by someone else taking your place. We could also work different jobs regardless of profession. For example, work as doctor for 3 days and as bus driver 1 day. This would reinforce the idea that no job is more important than others.

>>2365512
>>2365536
>>2365596
Slandering Michael Hudson as an antisemite during a time when the term antisemite is already being semantically overloaded and rendered meaningless by Israeli fascists doing genocide in Gaza and slandering anyone against it an antisemite is actually really fucking suspicious behavior. Even more intersectionalist-leaning Marxist websites like Hexbear which literally has a safe space for Jewish users did a board-wide reading of his work Super-Imperialism and I never once saw him slandered as an anti-semite by anyone anywhere. It's such a strange charge that I can't help but feel that it is in bad faith. You're the one equating finance capitalism with Jews and then equating Hudson's lifelong specialization and focus on the financial aspect of the capitalist mode of production with antisemitism. Do you also think anti-zionism is anti-semitism just because the Tsarist secret police wrote a hoax document called the protocols of the elders of zion?

>>2365635
>Do you also think anti-zionism is anti-semitism just because the Tsarist secret police wrote a hoax document called the protocols of the elders of zion?
This phrase invalidated you as a person cause you know what elders of zion is. The rest before is right.

>>2365635
With all due respect hexbear is the same kind of zero theory "big tent", " left leaning" website full of clueless "socialists", you could organize a bauer reading party there and they'd nod along

calling michael hudson a anti semite is so retarded it reaches mentally ill territory.

>>2365635
Michael hudson is not a marxist. Historiography of IMF payment is not marxism.

File: 1751457394639.mp4 (1.47 MB, 960x720, A2b00kf2ZJc6Y0xc.mp4)

what did he mean by this?

>>2365665
Noo you can't talk about financial speculation, that's a heckin fascism

https://michael-hudson.com/2017/12/he-died-for-our-debt-not-our-sins/
>Professor Hudson says Jesus Christ paid the ultimate price for his activism.
>The Pharisees, Hillel (the founder of Rabbinical Judaism) and the creditors who backed them decided that Jesus’ growing popularity was a threat to their authority and wealth.
> “They said ‘we’ve got to get rid of this guy and rewrite Judaism and make it about sex instead of a class war’, which is really what the whole Old Testament is about,” Professor Hudson said.
what the fuck?

https://www.unz.com/author/michael-hudson/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unz_Review
>The Unz Review is an American website and blog founded and edited by Ron Unz, an American far-right activist and Holocaust denier. It is known for its publication of far-right, conspiracy theory, white nationalist, and antisemitic writings.[1]

Wow, a bit too many (((coincidences))) for me. But i'm sure this guy is just worried about the deep state and financial capital and wants to return to industrial capitalism through collaboration between workers and capitalists… wait, where have I heard this before?

>>2365715
Keep spending your time attacking a man who is 100% opposed to the powers that be because he doesn't want to abolish money as such or return to a Soviet-style economy. The current system doesn't allow even the slightest of reforms, like with Bernie, who can't be compared to Hudson who opposes every single US imperial venture and private equity and the banks that control the US political system.

>>2364784
a socialist society can't consume more value than it produces, so any vouchers are going to go to the value producers, that's kinda the whole point. its also why each voucher has the name of the person who generated the value and an expiration date. Without these two things its no different than capitalistic money as I could just steal your vouchers or accumulate them and pass it on as generational wealth

almost as if commodity production is preferable to central planning? 🤔

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>>2365762
lol no.

>>2365768
does walmart not produce commodities? 🫠

>>2365769
walmart is a retailer they don't produce commodities..

>>2365771

They do have some amount of vertical integration if I am not mistaken as far as transport and logistics are concerned.

While these are for internal use, because walmart operates in a broader capitalist economy there does exist markets for them as commodities.

Regardless though, the internal operations of the near entirety of corporations are most definitely highly centralized & planned.

t. From a wealthy industrialist capitalist family. Libertarian ideological masturbation never stood a chance with me as I directly witnessed the elegance & efficiency of the centralized & planned nature of the internal workings of the modern large corporation. Che Guevara was completely right in this regard.

>>2365750
>(((the powers that be)))
Uh huh.
And the answer is to go back to the glorious age of "productive capitalism", when imperialism still existed btw, as well colonialism, segregation, apartheid, etc. etc.

>>2365627

You misunderstand completely.

The extra (good/service specific) vouchers/rations for physically demanding work for example are to compensate for extra real expenditures a person puts into their work (calories, proteins, vitamins, gym training, etc.)

The same goes for mentally strenuous activity: Working in a hospital is extremely mentally taxing: You witness excessive suffering & death on a regular basis. Some extra recovery time/services for this is exceptionally necessary.

Not doing this implies not compensating a worker for inputs above and beyond labour time they put into production.

>>2365715
ok this Unz guy and his website is really bad, strange that Hudson publishes there. also seems genuinely below his level just in terms of audience reach let alone legitimacy

>>2365903
ron unz is an eccentric libertarian who publishes anyone from the 'fringe' and he has articles from people like Patrick Cockburn, Jonathon Cook, and some guy called Godfrey who was pro-China. But yeah he also has Andrew anglin of daily stormer, race & intelligence schizos, and the comment sections of like stormfront.

>>2365909
was reading through some of the backlog of articles on there, the 2 articles i read were just straight up stormfront rhetoric, looked like a lot on there from some of the titles

>>2365702
He meant there's a lot of rabid zionists in the American govt. who want to slaughter palestinians. Hope that helps.

>>2365649
…. ?
Invalidated me… as a person? Because I know the tsarist secret police made up a fake book in order to encourage pogroms? Whatever. Figure out what you mean and type something sensible.

>>2365700
>another self appointed gatekeeper of who is and isn't Marxist
don't care

>>2365903
>>2365919
the only reason you're surprised is because you still haven't internalized the fact that liberals, fascists, trotskyists, social-democrats, "conservatives", libertarians, keynesyans, ultra-leftists, anarchists, nazis, MMTers, zionists, leftcoms, "maoists", etc. etc., are all the same thing

There are only two positions: marxism-leninism and everything else.

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>>2366039
>everyone who isn't M-L is a nazi, yes even Maoists

>>2366063
western "maoism" is just redwashed anarchism, it's all white people who romanticize singing kumbaya in a circle after having destroyed all the evil productive forces

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>>2366172
>more opinions

>>2366063
>>2366172
>21st century ML when someone actually has revolutionary ambitions

>>2365627
>division of labor
can a construction worker share labor with a rocket scientist?
>skilled labor
marx defends the idea of skilled labor in capital vol. 1 and critique of the gotha program, and says that in the "cooperative society" there will be a necessary inequality of labor powers, under an equal right:
>The right of the producers is proportional to the labor they supply; the equality consists in the fact that measurement is made with an equal standard, labor. But one man is superior to another physically, or mentally, and supplies more labor in the same time, or can labor for a longer time; and labor, to serve as a measure, must be defined by its duration or intensity, otherwise it ceases to be a standard of measurement. This equal right is an unequal right for unequal labor. It recognizes no class differences, because everyone is only a worker like everyone else; but it tacitly recognizes unequal individual endowment, and thus productive capacity, as a natural privilege. It is, therefore, a right of inequality, in its content, like every right. Right, by its very nature, can consist only in the application of an equal standard; but unequal individuals (and they would not be different individuals if they were not unequal) are measurable only by an equal standard insofar as they are brought under an equal point of view, are taken from one definite side only – for instance, in the present case, are regarded only as workers and nothing more is seen in them, everything else being ignored. Further, one worker is married, another is not; one has more children than another, and so on and so forth. Thus, with an equal performance of labor, and hence an equal in the social consumption fund, one will in fact receive more than another, one will be richer than another, and so on. To avoid all these defects, right, instead of being equal, would have to be unequal.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm

>>2364784
> I feel labor vouchers restrict my choices on what I can get
They’re supposed to
Labor vouchers specifically exist to change the relations of societal production from those centered around exchange to those centered on need accounted for by labor time
>>2365570
The concept of deindustrialization is something of a misnomer and red meat for the manufacturing bourgeoisie to get masses of the proletariat behind their program, on a deeper level the capitalistically advanced countries are still highly industrialized, they just have the world’s most advanced productive technologies and technics, which require a far lower share of society’s labor plugged into their productive cycle to meet the needs of profit; not only that, but the globalization of production has always been a fact of capital’s historical development, the “deindustrialization” of one region is the development of another

>>2365635
I don’t think Hudson is an antisemite, I do believe he’s another retarded cunt desperately trying to save the volksgemeinschaft and the national bourgeoisie while pretending to be a socialist; it’s okay though, since 95% of self-described “Marxists” are more like socdems using the Marxist label for clout

NTA but I hate capitalist apologists that pretend to be Marxists like Hudson

>>2366039
>There are only two options, enslaving proletarians (liberalism) or enslaving proletarians (liberalism)
Actual ML discourse
I’m surprised MLs call themselves Marxists at all considering he was an internationalist jew disloyal to his nation and volk

>>2366039
absolutely delusional. this is the same kind of thick skulled idealism insist that has christians insist that their particular sect is the TRUE church of saint peter

at least try to pretend like its a dispute over efficacy of strategy & soundness of analysis instead of a question of which doctrine marks you as one of the saved

>>2366604
sorry but the para-religious worship WILL continue

>>2366604
It's not dogmatic, I've looked into every single one of the above mentioned and came away with the same conclusion

>>2366572
Yeah. What do MLs even think of Marx's view on Germany?

>>2364823
I’m willing to put in 12 hours in a rice patty or a pig slaughterhouse if I can get jump man wahoo and a six pack of beer at the end of the night. Deal?

>>2364823
>Socialism is when you’re a wage slave, nah, actual slave worked at gun point on the national volk’s Fatherland’s people’s rice paddy for the crime of wanting to play a shitty game instead of uhhh killing yourself for being white or something
Lmao MLs are legit just Nazis that hate white people “westerners” at this point 😂😂😂

Pathetic cope ideology if you’re a westoid

>>2366567
>capitalist apologists that pretend to be Marxists like Hudson
This is the takeaway of someone who didn't read


>>2366551
>The concept of deindustrialization is something of a misnomer and red meat for the manufacturing bourgeoisie to get masses of the proletariat behind their program,
it really isn't. 1960 a lot of people worked unionized commodity production jobs in factories. now most people work service sector jobs that aren't unionized. The unionization rate is a fraction of what it ws before and so are the commodity production jobs.
> on a deeper level the capitalistically advanced countries are still highly industrialized
America doesn't even produce chips anymore. What is this cope?
> they just have the world’s most advanced productive technologies and technics, which require a far lower share of society’s labor plugged into their productive cycle to meet the needs of profit
Oh OK then why have we been de-proletarianized and shuffled off into service sector and office jobs? Why are so many people relying on petty bourgeois aspirations and side husttles? The whole imperial core is so declassed it's crazy.
> not only that, but the globalization of production has always been a fact of capital’s historical development, the “deindustrialization” of one region is the development of another
OK well it's still imperialism and it postpones revolution in the core by declassing the core and shuffling them off into service industries. the only industries left are WAR industries which are used to maintain hegemonic status. This makes everyone complicit and counter revolutionary. I want this to stop. I don't want to be seen as the 21st century wehrmacht out of guilt by association. I want the jobs to come back and I want the exploitation to end. But I'm not le real marxist. Hudson is le antisemite (lazy shibboleth uttered while US-backed israelis slaughter starving palestinians gathered to pick up crumbs scattered by fake aid orgs staffed with burger mercenaries)

>>2367771
> it really isn't. 1960 a lot of people worked unionized commodity production jobs in factories. now most people work service sector jobs that aren't unionized. The unionization rate is a fraction of what it ws before and so are the commodity production jobs.
This was covered when I discussed the advancement of the productive forces of society, we do not need everyone working factory jobs to produce
>America doesn't even produce chips anymore. What is this cope?
American industries absolutely produce chips, but they do so outside of the US, and what production occurs within the country is highly automated, we don’t have 1920s factories anymore because it isn’t 1925, we can have robotic arms produce things, we don’t need line workers for that. America has factories, but they cannot employ most of the population while remaining profitable, and they do not need a large workforce to function. Increasingly even warehouses are being highly automated, Amazon employs as many automated robotic tools as humans now, and they just run warehouses. The great struggle of the modern communist is his immense backwards facing fascination with past eras of capitalism, the future isn’t to return to the line factory.
> Oh OK then why have we been de-proletarianized and shuffled off into service sector and office jobs? Why are so many people relying on petty bourgeois aspirations and side husttles? The whole imperial core is so declassed it's crazy.
The systemic production of surplus populations and wasted labor power (from the standpoint of profit) are necessary outcomes of the need to maintain profits. Efficient use of labor time =/= profitable use of labor time; capital requires a means to control the populations that cannot be plugged into profitable endeavors, besides which, the great mass of potential labor power must also be utilized (wasted) to manage itself
Capitalism is a system riven with contradiction, this is basic marxism at that point
> OK well it's still imperialism and it postpones revolution in the core by declassing the core and shuffling them off into service industries. the only industries left are WAR industries which are used to maintain hegemonic status. This makes everyone complicit and counter revolutionary. I want this to stop. I don't want to be seen as the 21st century wehrmacht out of guilt by association. I want the jobs to come back and I want the exploitation to end. But I'm not le real marxist. Hudson is le antisemite (lazy shibboleth uttered while US-backed israelis slaughter starving palestinians gathered to pick up crumbs scattered by fake aid orgs staffed with burger mercenaries)
Lmao you chose to funnel yourself into the retarded conclusion that most of the proletariat of your nation are your enemy simply because much of that population is now surplus, it isn’t a rational analysis of the situation. You should abandon your dual pity for workers outside the imperial core and sympathy for the capitalist past if you want to consider a truly revolutionary future.

Pretty sure only Owenites advocated for labor vouchers. They might be useful for some cases, I suppose.

>>2367036
>i just want vidya and beer
lenin is very disappointed in you anon

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juxtaposition

>>2367987
It’s fucking 12 hours hard labor, why doesn’t 12 hours hard labor get me either beer or vidya or both? How is that unreasonable?

>>2368036
beer and vidya are bad for you. just another form of opium

>>2368040
I’m not doing 12 hours of labor in the name of the DOTP just to go home and stare at the wall

>>2368036
I mean a communist society may not really have people relying on escapism to feel good, because life would no longer be so awful that visually and virtually interacting with an entirely false “grand adventure” is no longer necessary for “leisure”, which will no longer be a cordoned off part of life held against a drudgery known as work

The problem is thinking life will necessarily be shit the way life under capitalism is shit and palliatives like alcohol and escapism will still be sought after; which isn’t to say such things will be banned like MLoids (anti-worker red moralists essentially) would claim, but rather, they may not be produced because people may no longer desire them. Regardless, I wouldn’t be surprised if the labor time necessary to produce either product is much lower with more advanced productive forces and a more efficient usage of labor time; but even then, that is dependent on if a substantial amount of people desire such things

>>2368041
Ignore that fag, MLoids know they have nothing to offer proletarians, hence why they unironically promote communist society as essentially a prison but the guards will force you to smile, most of their ideology centers on deceiving workers in the modern West into desiring the long dead Soviet societies of the previous century, communism will not at all look like what MLs promote

>>2368044
This is a hypothetical about the early days of JDPON or DOTP, one in which we still need people working 12 hours a day hard agricultural labor. Also your critique of video games applies to all fiction, indeed all art in general. If work and leisure are intertwined (how this is supposed to work with farm work or factory work idk) why would anyone ever watch a film or read a novel or watch television?

>>2368044
Also alcohol is fun to make yourself, I take the same pride in making beer and wine as I would making cookies

>>2368040
trvthnvke…

>>2368050
>This is a hypothetical about the early days of JDPON or DOTP, one in which we still need people working 12 hours a day hard agricultural labor.
Nonsensical proposition that emerges out of the MLoid belief that semi-feudal countries still predominantly exist, that the proletarian revolution will actually be a series of nationalist revolutions that form an international alliance of national states (rather than an international offense by the proletarian party itself), and that a key moment of the revolutionary struggle is “revenge” not only against the capitalists, but also the proletarians that dared to be born in the capitalistically advanced nations rather than neocolonies.
The DOTP =/= a fascistic dictatorship over the proletariat; you can feel free to ignore MLs
>Also your critique of video games applies to all fiction, indeed all art in general.
It isn’t a critique, it’s an observation from which I built a hypothetical, namely, that people may no longer feel encouraged to produce and play video games if life is no longer encountered as an alienated endeavor beset by “necessity”. I also wouldn’t say all art is escapist in nature, I wouldn’t even say fantastical, imaginative art is inherently escapist, I would contend a lot of capitalist art is specifically designed to allow people to mentally escape the general conditions of subjection that define their day to day lives, that doesn’t mean all art must necessarily produced for such a purpose. Consider the fact that capitalist society specifically cordoned off products made specifically to be “artistic” yet strips from the majority of mankind’s products the notion that they in anyway represent people’s creative capacities

Part of it involves the immense challenge even communists face in genuinely imagining a society that is different from the existing one

>>2368045
Are you done trying to cleave yet, Langley? Probably not your day just started.

>>2368050
>If work and leisure are intertwined (how this is supposed to work with farm work or factory work idk) why would anyone ever watch a film or read a novel or watch television?
Indeed, if labor was no longer mankind’s object by which he is subjected to, why would man feel the need to escape his day to day life any longer? Would that necessarily be a bad thing? I’m not talking about, say, a self-described revolutionary society forcibly banning film and game production so you genuinely can’t imagine anything but your shift at the factory; I’m talking about the potential collapse of films or games as a desired product as a result of labor turning into a freely chosen endeavor humans desire to engage in rather than something they are merely subjected to. The purpose of communism is to fundamentally create a new relation between man and his productive capacities, not to redistribute the end products.

>>2368068
No one is deciding to work in a mine or a factory, all of which we are going to need to keep any kind of material surplus.

>>2368062
The Soviet Union chose to destroy itself to gain full access to western markets and contemporary MLs vacillate between doing nothing, opportunistically tailing protest movements, and trying to feel vicarious power through the wealth and prominence of capitalist states such as China, Russia, Iran, Cuba, etc.

MLs fedjacketing their critics to ensure “Marxism” remains a backwards facing, navel gazing pseudo-movement accomplishes more for Washington than Langley could ever hope to, keep your copes to yourself

>>2368071
It’s true that nobody chooses to be a wage slave; the point of communism is to abolish the “necessity” that produces subjection

Of course “communists” will never get anywhere so long as they openly and flagrantly tell their fellow proletarians they fully intend to force them to mine unsustainable materials and labor for 16 hours at the barrel of a gun. I genuinely think most MLs will gain more of what they personally desire (power) if they simply join up with fascist or social democratic movements that currently stand a better chance at acquiring power in most countries than communists do and who ultimately promote a political regime that looks identical to what most self-described “socialists” mistakenly believe Communism to be.

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left anti-communist ultras coping, the soviet union had vidya AND beer
china (ML) does, too.
in fact, it has the cheapest beer

now, show me an anarchist society producing vidya. or beer. or insulin

>>2368076
So what, all the products and raw materials are just there in front of you? No labor required? We’re the round people from WAL-E?

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>>2368081
In capitalism, labor is suffering
But ask yourself, what is inherently miserable about mining a rock, or doing labor on a production line?

>>2368103 (Me)
The biggest reason for this sort of misconception were the underdeveloped postrevolutionary societies of the 20th Century, which called themselves socialist, and are worshipped by many contemporary (largely ineffectual and inactive) self-described socialists, but whose economies were centered around production for exchange, the accumulation of surplus value, and the necessary extraction of said surplus from politically dominated waged laborers

>>2368103
If you ever smashed a rock or did a production line you would know

>>2368118
I’ve done both those things, have you? For real? Hard work isn’t inherently suffering. That’s the problem with red liberals. They have no vision. They consistently remind you “Labor under capitalism is suffering!” and then, if they are especially intelligent, will reference previous modes of production. They cannot adequately explain the horrors of hard (as in, physically taxing) labor if it were to be parceled out efficient solely to meet people’s desires and needs, rather than the requirements of self-expanding value; what they mean is, “I don’t want to work a 16 hour shift in the people’s mine to receive my compensation in the form of the people’s wage in a job I do not control and have commanded down to me by higherups in the social division of labor”; but at that point they’re actually stating “I don’t want to live in capitalism” and refusing to understand that what they are describing, is capitalism

Even in capitalism, compared to other jobs I have done, physical labor was the most tolerable despite being the lowest paid; but not all people are identical either, people like me enjoy seeing the direct products of our labor in the form of an actual physically changed product, I hated jobs where I couldn’t even comprehend what I was doing aside from increasing shareholder value by shuffling products around or indoctrinating kids to the state (I have done many jobs)

Why do red liberals typically assume, if you do not see labor as an evil, that you haven’t worked?

wow lotsa left-anticommunists around here these days, must be the DSA shills doing overtime for zohran's campaign

>>2364784
>I dont like the labor voucher
Its a really shitty idea but classical economists couldn't understand this. Economics as a science improves as new evidence to support new theories are presented.

>>2368133
>make up a red liberal strawman
>ask it rhetorical questions

>>2368170
>Economics as a science

Labor vouchers are a temporary measure. It wouldn't even apply to all products. A communist society would rapidly move towards abolishing exchange right from the start. Vouchers only exist in this transitional phase for those areas where exchange isn't abolished yet.

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>>2368170
>Its a really shitty idea but classical economists couldn't understand this
classical economists didnt propose the notion of labor vouchers. they began from the ideas of the early communists josiah warren and robert owen, as a way to quantify exchange in an ethical manner. marx later suggests labor "certificates" as a medium of exchange in a future cooperative society during the first phases of communism, where each man will receive what he gives toward the public wealth fund. many technocrats later on conceived of a similar idea, where energy expended in production should be measured according to one's input of the economy. paul cockshott also holds to this view, i believe.

the alternative vision of the classical economists is simply market equilibrium, where labor values will meet each other in exchange by the balancing of effectual demand to supply (a process which smith says is inevitable, but hastened by "liberty" in the market). marx's issue is that he sees the ways in which capital accumulation sustains indefinite cycles of disequilibrium, leading to general crises. keynes then attempts to resolve this in his own terms, by correcting the internal errors of capital's marginal disutility.

>>2368036
…why wouldn't labor vouchers buy you beer? the beer's "price" would just be the socially necessary labor time required for its production instead of a money price

>>2368372
I agree humans are reasonable creatures but what if someone decides to take too much of one thing? I think for food maybe it’s okay but for other more limited products we need some control.

>>2369332
What do you gain out of taking more food than you can eat at any one time if there’s not a scarcity of food (as there isn’t without capitalist distribution and concomitant restriction of food products) and nobody is going to stop you from just acquiring food?

>>2369380
There’s always people with hoarding disorder out there, theoretically you could force them to take a picture of their house and refuse to serve them like how bars and liquor stores will refuse to serve an already visibly drunk person

>>2369380
I’m talking more about limited things like electronics.

>>2369445
I think your missing the point
Why would anyone care?
That’s why I said, why would you take more than you immediately need, if no one will stop you from acquiring more when you need it?
Hoarding will only inconvenience you as an individual, not the collective

we already have a contemporary analog of labor vouchers in today's markets; namely, store coupons. these are tokens which limit our consumption and have a time-frame which render them necessarily superfluous media of exchange. this can be likened to a form of barter, since we are staking a claim for a specific product, rather than having access to the body of social wealth. some stores also offer alternative options like store credit or point systems based on past consumption.

now, a question i always consider is this one. would you rather be paid in wages, or double the amount of your wages in store coupons? if a capitalist was paying people in coupons, they would be arrested, even if it was double the value of cash. this says something about the justice we place on money as a property rightfully earned. in gamestop for example, they always offer more store credit than cash, showing how credit is less valuable, even if it has a greater claim to stocked goods. the very access to social wealth thus entails a value of its own, as mediated universality.

again, vouchers are a form of regulated barter, since they cannot overcome the double coincidence of wants except by a conditional time-frame, which represents the holding of perishable goods (rather than preserving value in imperishable material). it is a pre-metallic strategy which leads to pre-metallic results. the frustration of vouchers then reveals itself as an artificial inefficiency in exchange.


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