<Abolish The Family.
<Abolish Religion.
<Abolish Wage Labour.
<Abolish Money.
<Abolish Work.
<Abolish Commodity Production.
<Abolish the State.
<Abolish Class.
<Abolish Private Property.
<Abolish the Nation.
<Abolish Patriarchy.
<Abolish Gender.
<Abolish Town and Country.
If you don't think these are the ultimate goals for a communist party or organization to achieve, I'm sorry to say this but you're not a communist but rather just an edgy social democrat.
>>2367220>Abolish The Family.Agree.
>Abolish Religion.Curious how you intend to differentiate between
religious institutions and
religious belief and put this all into practice, but I agree in principle.
>Abolish Wage Labour. Agree.
>Abolish Money. Agree.
>Abolish Work. Agree in the long term, but this will at the very least not happen until communism, and even then how exactly this can be accomplished is entirely beyond us at this time. My point being that this is essentially empty phrasemongering until well after communism becomes dominant worldwide.
>Abolish Commodity Production. Agree.
>Abolish the State. Agree.
>Abolish Class. Agree.
>Abolish Private Property. Agree.
>Abolish the Nation. Agree, with the caveat that in the present era of imperialism — particularly with the neo-colonial and settler-colonial domination of nations worldwide — this is a reactionary demand unless we understand the necessary alliance of national liberation movements and socialist revolution in the present era. Only well into the era where socialism is dominant worldwide will we be able to
start talking about the abolition of nations in a genuine way.
>Abolish Patriarchy. Agree.
>Abolish Gender. Agree.
>Abolish Town and Country.Agree.
>>2367455You can never automate everything. Sure most of heavy industry can be automated potentially, but people still want handmade arts and crafts, a haircut by a human etc. - I'd also to automate everything in heavy industry or agriculture is a pipedream.
Unless you want everything to be replaced with AI slop in which case I guess I'm not a communist.
>>2367615hurrr my only response is to summon a strawmen laden with millennial sarcasm
off yourself, you moron. Nobody ever said what you're assuming and the fact that you can't intuit anykind of nuance inbetween the positions being espoused here reveals the vacuity of your theoretical grasp.
>>2367610Yeah and it's a bad translation, at least because insofar retards today can't understand it. Maybe they approved of it at the time because their English-speaking peers weren't complete retards and at least slightly familiar with Hegel and dialectics.
Today it's a bad translation because retards like OP will completely misunderstand it and think of it in the literal sense of how it is used today.
It simply better to use sublation for Aufhebung (which does not translate to abolition btw, at least in the aforementioned modern sense) because it's more precise. People think today about the immediate destruction of state, private property, family, etc. which quite obviously undialectical.
>>2367609>Nations came into existence with capitalism. Yeah, so when the Romans spoke of
natio/nationes they were capitalist. I can't think of a more ahistorical take.
>A nation is a historically constituted, stable community of people, formed on the basis of a common language, territory, economic life, and psychological make-up manifested in a common culture.- Stalin
That has existed since clan society vanished and civilizations like the Sumerians came up. Of course there are certain characteristics of how capitalism centralizes and streamlines a nation eradicating others in the process (for example in France, completely erasing Occitanian culture) but the nation state is not equivalent with a nation.
>>2367635Regardless it's obviously retarded to say that transsexuality in its present form will exist under communism, let alone that everyone will be trans.
>>2367642If we're taking gender to mean social roles and forms of behavior that are culturally assigned to a biological sex then yes. Without the idea that men dress and act a certain way and women dress and act a certain other way then what is there to base a trans identity on? Everything that's now "gendered" would just be neutral because everyone is doing the same work and fulfilling the same social roles regardless of sex.
>>2367645Nazism is liberalism thoughbeit.
Sage
I genuinely wonder if this is a fed. I was reading the Wikipedia page for Grenada today, America seemed to be basically tripping over itself as soon as any pretense for a violent regime change emerged. For instance, American soldiers were using literal tourist maps where key features like runways had to be drawn on. I take this not so much as evidence of the incompetence of the military, but that the very instant a communist vulnerability presented itself, it was a top priority that it had to be immediately exploited, even more important that actually planning and executing the mission.
With the election of Zohran, I really do feel certain that revolution/civil war is imminent in the future, there’s no way on the face of the planet that plans for communist murder aren’t already being drawn up in the most powerful boardrooms in this country. I wonder if something like a police coup could be possible, or some kind of “nonviolent” federal siege on NYC. Our rural populace genuinely hate our cities and anything that requires funding or maintenance (the materially existing country itself), which I bring up not because I think the feds would feel the need to have popular support, but because I think insecure retards from NW NJ or NC would eagerly volunteer their lives and money for the opportunity to live out their fantasy of dignifying their victimhood with the blood of their countrymen, who literally will be closest thing to something that they can identify as a badguy.
Like dawg, all these 2A fed hating orcs are probably going to get mobilized against us in some sort of absurd reverse cultural revolution. We need to start banding together and figuring out ways to find and support each other, and we need to stop thinking of communism as a checklist for Eden and we need to start thinking of it as a team.
>>2367683I don't disagree with anything in the OP unless the implication is that if year 1 of DOTP all that hasn't been done that you have a counterrevolutionary system. Which knowing you retards is possible.
What I definitely do disagree with is 50% of the catalog being low effort bait ripped from /r/ultraleft, that's the definition of sliding. If you're going to spam this shit then at least put together researched and well thought out posts.
>>2367220Imagine thinking this was a quality OP to produce.
This site is so dead. it's never going to be moderated again. It's never going to improve.
>>2367220Based based based
Except most of this board aren’t even socdems these days, they’re just hitlerites that happen to hate westerners and white people by sheer happenstance; they aren’t posting on sites like /pol/, Stormfront, or incels.is mostly by accident
>>2367599>It's a bit more complex than that<its not abolishment its actually going extinct!!!!!lol
>nations as an eternal abstractionpseud retard
We do not want to abolish them in the sense of eliminating them, but to negate them and raise them up in the dialectical process.
As if we deny society by elevating the present society to a socialist society.
In my opinion, utopians are dreamers, and anarchists have proved too sterile to get through the revolutionand Lenin was too much absorbed in pure ideology. Therefore, we need a scientific method of governing the new socialist society and the balance between consumption and production, reframing it from convenience production to energy investment.
In my opinion, technocracy (in the sense of scientists, engineers, planners - rules society instead of bourgeois politicians or corporate parasites. It means central planning based on data and expertise, not vibes or profits and not Elon Musk retardism where more green for private firms = big profits) would be enough to achieve this.
<Elevate the Family
→ From property-based unit to a freely chosen community of care, affection, and education, beyond inheritance and domination.>
<Elevate Religion
→ From dogma and authority to a spiritual ethic of communion, awe, and immanence, rooted in lived human freedom.>
<Elevate Wage Labour
→ From alienated compulsion to meaningful, self-directed activity integrated into life, learning, and communal purpose.>
<Elevate Money
→ From capitalist abstraction to transparent accounting of social energy and value, subordinated to human needs.>
<Elevate Work
→ From survival-based toil to creative, self-expressive action within a cybernetic ecology of production and leisure.>
<Elevate Commodity Production
→ From market fetishism to democratic, need-based, ecologically rational distribution and design.>
<Elevate the State
→ From coercive authority to a transparent, technocratic framework for coordination, care, and collective decision-making.>
<Elevate Class
→ From material antagonism to differentiated roles in a fluid, merit-based, solidaristic community.>
<Elevate Private Property
→ From exclusionary ownership to stewardship and shared access in accordance with use, care, and responsibility.>
<Elevate the Nation
→ From ethnos and borders to cultural self-articulation within planetary solidarity and human cosmopolitanism.>
<Elevate Patriarchy
→ From domination to reciprocal respect and synthesis of the feminine, masculine, and beyond.>
<Elevate Gender
→ From rigid social coding to free becoming and lived difference in harmony with nature and spirit.>
<Elevate Town and Country
→ From ecological rupture to integrated, distributed life-worlds that unite rhythm, place, and community
>>2367978Ackshually the present state of things is the
perfidious Jewish objective Yank dissolution of the Holy Family, the Fatherland, True Religion via filthy Yankoid megachurches, Proper Proletarian Labor via deindustrialization, True Valuable Commodities via filthy digital industries, Real Physical Property, Money with ACTUAL value due to FIAT and DEBT, TRUE MASCULINITY WITH THE SPREAD OF
AMERICAN GLOBALIST FEMINISM, and the CLASSICAL Trve Essence of the Country and a Metropolitan Area loyal to the Nation and its Volk
Destroy America
Save Evropa
This is true communism now, don’t be such a fucking dogmatist lib
Read Hitler >>2367220><Abolish Gender. Lmao.
Maybe we'll finally combine sex and gender back at most.
>>2368043> you're going to regret the time you wasted acting like an obnoxious moron just to trigger people you'll never meetI think we're long passed that point, they've doubled down and this is who they are now.
It's never to late to change, however, to the OP. Although it will probably entail actually going out and engaging your state and its mental health services.
>>2368039Tankie is a silly term
The proper term would be red liberal or brown hitlerite
As per
>>2367690Famously a horse may be lead to water, it cannot be made to drink
>>2368043My hope, I think it is grounded enough, is that these people are quite young. Typically school to college age. And typically they'll impact on reality with some force and accompanying pain.
It is a self-correcting problem.
>>2368010I'm trans myself you faggot retard. I bet you're one of those "enbies" who calls everyone "transmedicalist" without knowing what it even actually means.
>bourgeois concept99% of the time in articles about non-western cultures or pre-20th century history you can read "non-binary", "third gender", "unclear/undefined gender identity", and all related terms, as just "trans woman". :)
>>2368102cuz theres no need to do it lol
>>oh god im gonna assooom oh god amassoooming aaaahjjchanners have liquefied brains bruh
Its very telling of how infected leftists are with bourgeois ideology when even they themselves think actual communism (as understood by most Marxists in the 19th and early 20th century) is impossible. But instead of admitting this themselves they either -
1) Claim communism is something else, like state ownership or planned capitalism or something.
2) Claim real communism is possible but its not possible now because of [bullshit reason] and therefore the important task now is to be a nationalist of some type (Islamic or Chinese or some random 3rd world country)
Leftists are the left-wing of capital. Although in recent years even this definition has become strained, what with leftist support for theocracies, reactionary policies, imperialism etc etc. Leftists were never communists, but nowadays they aren't even leftist.
I think leftism is dying and that's a good thing. EU countries are now like 40% centre-left party, 20% centre-right party and 40% far-right party. With the far right section staedily growing.
The Middle East is, well, a theocratic shithole. China continues to build their glorious class-collaborationist Singapore society. The Pink Tide is dead in South America. South Asia and North America never had any relevant leftist political forces. South East Asia is just too busy growing economically to care about this shit. And even leftists don't give a shit about Africa anymore, let alone the rest of the world. You dont even hear a peep about the 600,000 dead in Sudan from leftist leaders, influencers, streamers, politicians, for example.
>>2368082MLoids are literally arguing up and down this thread that communism is impossible, why the fuck would you think anyone mocking you clowns see you as “commies” of all fucking things?
If you want to argue with redditors, why don’t you go to Reddit? Then again, this place pretty much is Reddit by now
>>2369043Anything but Hitlerism is utopian
Read Foundations of Leninism, lib
>>2367666>With the election of Zohran, I really do feel certain that revolution/civil war is imminent in the future, there’s no way on the face of the planet that plans for communist murder aren’t already being drawn up in the most powerful boardrooms in this country. Jewish finance imperialists feel unsafe tho :(
>all these 2A fed hating orcs are probably going to get mobilized against us in some sort of absurd reverse cultural revolution<"against us"Your democratic socialist friends soyfaced at John Fetterman while he was running around with a shotgun threatening black people who made him feel unsafe.
https://readsettlers.org/ >>2368598I think this is the point that is most relevant to a lot of posters here. You're not anything as long as you don't do anything. Considering how (a lot of) people act here, I don't see any reason to take them seriously in their conviction.
>>2368855As reasonable an expectation of future society as any.
Me personally, I should curb my drinking so I'll go one step further, as it were, and say I'd be fine if there is rationing. Like no drinking on weekdays (or whatever your shifts look like). How do you expect to become the next Stakhanov if you turn up hungover all the time?
But for now, TGIF. Mañana forever. Tomorrow I'll stop drinking.
>>2369031>MLoids are literally arguing up and down this thread that communism is impossible, No they're not, unfortunately you are just a permanently retarded idealist incapable of actually understanding what communism actually is
>why the fuck would you think anyone mocking you clowns see you as “commies” of all fucking things?Hey dummy, I'm saying that terms such as redfash or tankie are substitutes for words like commie. I'm calling you an anticommunist
>If you want to argue with redditors, why don’t you go to Reddit? Then again, this place pretty much is Reddit by nowOnly thing reddit here is you
>>2369749> No they're not, unfortunately you are just a permanently retarded idealist incapable of actually understanding what communism actually is MLs use the term idealism very frequently
But they genuinely don’t know what it means
They think, for instance, claiming a country is socialist, because it cannot achieve socialism, but its leaders want to achieve socialism hypothetically, is not idealist nonsense
MLs are, if anything, a return to the utopians of the 19th Century
> Hey dummy, I'm saying that terms such as redfash or tankie are substitutes for words like commie. I'm calling you an anticommunist I know, and such an accusation is meaningless from someone who amounts to a red liberal, whose politics are constructed around idealist substitutionism, and who can happily support the butchering of proletarians and communists in the “right circumstances” (i.e. they betrayed the Fatherland in some sense, most typically)
It’s beyond a farce for MLs, who openly celebrate fratricidal violence between socialists, in the name of “necessity” (capital accumulation) to accuse their critics of “anti-communism”. The secret is that, if MLs engaged with the nuance of their critics, they would cease to be MLs, and become communists. It is telling that most ML defensiveness relies deeply on apologism (“You don’t understand, obviously a true DOTP must be constructed around wage labor, capital accumulation, market price signals, and MUST have room for placing dissenting proles or even just insufficient workers in forced labor camps! Due to the necessity of the moment and no, obviously international revolution cannot solve this problem, because the proletariat cannot be expected to overcome the true political form, the national state! Anyway those are CIA lies, even when the leaders of these countries were extremely open about this dynamic!”), childish pejoratives (self-explanatory), or offense at an interlocutor’s (it means the person you are arguing with) lack of sentimental reverence for whatever regime or politician MLs feel personal sentimental reverence for.
It’s telling that fratricidal violence, sexual abuse, individual abuse, and splitting are all extremely common features of ML militant movements, states, parties, and those inspired by them such as Maoists, Trots, etc
I think what I will do is I'll recycle old material.
I think we have been well over all that.
>>2367690Note also the reversal going on
The
real movement is actually the fictional movement of the future and what is really happening in
reality is all just to be denounced and whatever. Else you are not a
real communist (lol)
I'm starting to think these people haven't ever actually read Marx.
Remember as well, everyone wants to live in Shangri-La.
Everyone wants good things and abhors bad things. You ain't special for it.
>>2369764>MLs use the term idealism very frequently Lots of idealists around
>They think, for instance, claiming a country is socialist, because it cannot achieve socialism, but its leaders want to achieve socialism hypothetically, is not idealist nonsenseNo they don't, nobody thinks this lol. Is it really that difficult to actually engage with actual arguments?
>I knowClearly you didn't or you wouldn't have gotten your panties in a twist with that whole"why the fuck would you think anyone mocking you clowns see you as “commies"
>Moralism about le butchered proles Lmao faggot, you gonna post a picture of a pitbull asking for more proles next? Maybe you'd feel more at home on r/ultraleft or wherever hole you crawled out from
>It’s beyond a farce for MLs, who openly celebrate fratricidal violence between socialists, in the name of “necessity” (capital accumulation) to accuse their critics of “anti-communism”. The secret is that, if MLs engaged with the nuance of their critics
>More moralism about "celebrating" le wrong thing
>B..but I'm not an idealist tho Lmao, every time
>You don’t understand, obviously a true DOTP must be constructed around wage labor, capital accumulation, market price signals, and MUST have room for placing dissenting proles or even just insufficient workers in forced labor camps! Due to the necessity of the moment and no, obviously international revolution cannot solve this problem, because the proletariat cannot be expected to overcome the true political form, the national state! Anyway those are CIA lies, even when the leaders of these countries were extremely open about this dynamic!Damn dude that's a biting critique, but uhmm quick question, how's your DotP doing? Has it been established in the last 100 years? No? Sooo it's just an idea, a state of affairs if you will, in your head? That you think needs establishing yeah? Interesting
>offense at an interlocutor’s (it means the person you are arguing with)Wouldn't be an argument with an ultra without the unsubstantiated, self congratulatory arrogance lmao
>It’s telling that fratricidal violence, sexual abuse, individual abuse, and splitting are all extremely common features of ML militant movements, states, parties, and those inspired by them such as Maoists, Trots, etcWell, movements that actually exist and actually do things in the real world run into problems yeah, it's a feature of not just being an idealistic conception in your head like anarchism or leftcomism or whatever bullshit you uphold (if you even stand for anything at all and are not just an anticommunist like my original post that struck u so much implied)
In conclusion: you are a permanently retarded idealist who couldn't recognize the real movement if it lined him up against the wall and shot him
>>2369800It isn’t moralism to recognize the enemies of MLs are proletarians and communists
I judge people by who they slaughter, MLs slaughter proles, communists, and other MLs more than anyone else. To even fight a bourgeois power, they literally had to be invaded by them lmao. In fact, ML states have historically done everything in their power to avoid war with the openly imperialist states, while never in their history hesitating to massacre that class they profess to uphold, and that movement they claim to move towards. My answer for why is quite simple, because they were trying to consolidate a bourgeois nationalist regime, and required legitimacy in the eyes of the Western imperialist powers to do so. The explanation of MLs is that those millions of proles and hundreds of thousands of communists were
jews CIA or some other type of ideological enemy. I tend to think a regime that butchers communists and enslaves proletarians to wage labor, and maintains that class to begin with, is simply a bourgeois regime. It seems the easiest explanation for its actions.
Can you critique my argument, or will your defense be that those proles and communists were simply
k!k£$ CIA, and that true socialism, rather than an international proletarian revolution, is an alliance of national states that kill proletarians when convenient and build their entire economies around the extraction of surplus value?
Or will you out yourself as a liberal and claim economies necessarily extract surplus value to function?
>>2369800In fact, I think what’s truly idealist, is, again, claiming you are socialist, because socialism is what you hope to achieve. “Measure me not by the millions of proles I have shot, nor by the countless millions more I have shackled to the wage chain working to enlarge the coffers and profits of the state. No. Judge me by my aesthetics, my rhetoric, the power I hope to wield, and the aspirations I profess to hold” so says the Marxist-Leninist.
Also lol at the idea of ML states representing any sort of DOTP
I suppose a gang rape can also be a DotP by ML standards
>>2369832>It isn’t moralism to recognize the enemies of MLs are proletarians and communistsIt is and it's idealism and individualism too
>I judge people by who they slaughterSo you're a retarded moralist? Yeah I already told you, you don't have to keep repeating it lol
>Ahistorical ramble filled with unfounded assertions Very nice, but how's your movement doing? Oh, you don't have one? You have no revolutions? You have no DotP? And you have no bitches? Shame, but you shouldn't take out your seething jealousy for actual accomplishment on those who actually move history, how about you start moving history yourself pal and then you wouldn't look so pathetic in your resentments
>Can you critique my argument, What argument is that?
>MLs want to kill!! They just kill proles!! Thousands! Millions!! A 100 million killed by evil, powerhungry filthy commies uhhh I mean MLs who just want to kill proles and establish liberal capitalism (liberalism is when a country is governed by a communist party)Hardly worth responding to
>>2369835>More moralism about le slaughter God it never ends with you lmao
>ML can't do no DotPHow's your DotP doing? Conviently you completely ignored my statements about the whole preconceived state of affairs thing and your own movement. Care to mention what line you uphold? How well has that line done in establishing a DotP? I'm gonna go out on a limb here and make the prediction that it has never ever even come close to leading a revolution, let alone establishing something like a DotP
>Weird gangrape reference out of nowhere Keep your fetishes to yourself please
>>2369849he has a point anon, if you're constantly physically waging war against proletarians, your enemies are proletarians in a functional sense.
a lot of what you're saying here isn't an argument against that. 'ur doing a moralism' isn't a very good argument against that. you'd do better justifying it through a higher-logic than getting outraged about it.
>>2369862>he has a point anon, if you're constantly physically waging war against proletarians, your enemies are proletarians in a functional sense. It's a false premise. No ML state has "waged war against proletarians". It's just moralistic outrage at ML states being real things and thus having to contend with the actual world where people die
>a lot of what you're saying here isn't an argument against that. 'ur doing a moralism' isn't a very good argument against that. you'd do better justifying it through a higher-logic than getting outraged about it.I'm not outraged by it, it's just silly. I could talk about the real movement, the actual struggle for the seizure of state power by the proletariat, the subsequent establishment of the DotP, socialist construction and the contention with capitalist reaction and imperialism till I'm blue in the face. This Anon will never listen, because it's not about the real world, real history or real class struggle for them. It's just another vector for their anti communist sentiment.
Therefore, "you're a moralist" is perfectly sufficient
>>2369931The USSR, the MPR, the GDR, the PRC, The DPRK, The PRA, the SRV, the SRB, the CSR, the PRH, the PRP, Cuba, Laos, Yugoslavia
Now, name anything at all, doesn't even have to be a DotP, your line (which you don't have, because you are nothing but an anticommunist) has established anywhere, ever. I'll wait
>>2369849>How’s your DotP doing?Well it isn’t slaughtering proletarians, making concessions with the Western imperialists it claims to hate, maintaining wage labor and commodity production, wasting labor power to produce world destroying weaponry that aren’t meant to be used, upholding nationalism, fighting fratricidal wars against other “DOTPs”, helping save world capitalism repeatedly, openly destroying itself to re-establish bourgeois societies without even the farcical pretense of being anything else, and having nothing to show for its entire existence other than a bunch of far right nationalist regimes where the farce used to exist and some teenaged honkies in the West desperately attaching themselves to it despite their utter lack of attachment
You people are such clowns
Ignoring the fact that you worship bourgeois regimes solely due to their aesthetics, the Cold War propaganda of your own country, and your personal powerlessness, I legit can’t think of anything more utterly, disgustingly pathetic than the general tendency of Western MLs to pretend like they personally are not losers and failures and somehow “better” than any other person that calls themselves a socialist because they, personally, feel emotionally attached to regimes they, personally, had nothing at all to do with
>>2369950That seems a reasonable question, eh
And from a quick skim
^the non-answer a load of projection
>>2369876> It's a false premise. No ML state has "waged war against proletarians". It's just moralistic outrage at ML states being real things and thus having to contend with the actual world where people die<Appeal to anti-intellectualismAs I said, by ML standards a gang rape would also be a DotP
“People die” is a funny way of saying “mass executions and imprisonments of workers for every reason ranging from leaving work without permission to failing to meet a production quota”
I guess not enslaving workers to achieve vague and obscure goals is too “utopian” and “naive” for ML cockroaches worshipping states that collapsed despite all their “necessary violence” once the great “proletarian” leadership decided they could lead a more prosperous and profitable existence as capitalist overlords. Funny how not a single prole lifted a finger to save “socialism” either. Even the red army were too drunk to do that, right?
> I could talk about the real movement, the actual struggle for the seizure of state power by the proletariat, the subsequent establishment of the DotP, socialist construction and the contention with capitalist reaction and imperialism till I'm blue in the faceYou could also read Marx and seriously consider if a clique of nationalists accumulating capital in a backwards semi-feudal society whose socialist credentials are “I hate the West and want to modernize” measures against an international proletarian revolution.
>>2370050Splitting hairs, if Marx had been a politician of note, he would stand in the same tradition or at the beginning.
The name doesn't matter. You might as well classify it as "reality" versus "unreality"
but I believe the "anti-ML" won't like that very much either.
So you see, one can't win here. Someone will always complain.
I said "politician of note" and specified that he wasn't
I do not see how much clearer one can be.
Anyway, politics, economics, philosophy, it's all the same to me
I dunno, try reading I guess.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Workingmen's_Association>>2370081Nobody said those are legal terms lmao, OP is mocking MLoids for pretending that they are
MLs love to laugh at Anarchists for keeping the nature of a thing and changing the name, but they do exactly the same thing
The ML state compared to actual communism is even akin to Proudhon’s backwards facing nonsense, but whereas Proudhon idealized the peasant commune, MLs idealized the nation
>>2370088Why do you spend your time doing this? Do you not have a job?
Why do the jannies like you enough to keep you around?
>>2370043<How's your DotP doing?>Well it isn’t Yeah that's what I thought
>The rest of you're pathetic attempt at dodging my question. Crying, seething, repeating your retarded assertions about muh slaughtered proles Lmao you're such a pretentious larping faggot, you should kill yourself honestly. At least then I wouldn't have to look at this garbage
>>2370050And Marx wasn't a Marxist :)
>>2370052>Bringing up your weird obsession with gang rape again Bro I would really appreciate if you kept your strange fetishes to yourself thanks
>Muh hecking wholesome proles were SLAUGHTERED by degenerate le Machiavellian, filthy commies ehrm MLs>People had jobs, with quotas!! That means they were ENSLAVED!!>Heh and it fell anyways and even tho me and mine have never accomplished anything even close to the accomplishments of the Soviet Union, I'm still gonna gloat about the humanitarian catastrophe that was it's dissolution and call the Red Army, which saved Europe from nazi fascism, a bunch of drunks >B… But I'm not an anticommunist, I swear!!Lmao alright, time for bed lil bro. You can go and restate more Reaganite anticommunist rhetoric tomorrow, as I'm sure you will
>Muh international revolution Which one is that again? Care to point out any successful international revolutioning your line has done? Y'know? That line that you definitely uphold? That's definitely contributed to the international world revolution? What was it called again?
In fact, care to name a single accomplishment that your line has achieved? Just one? Doesn't even have to be socialist related honestly. At this point I'd be impressed by a lemonade stand
>>2370063>even if they perfectly mirrored both the barracks socialism and Lasallean nonsense he ruthlessly critiqued!okay. in what sense was the USSR barracks communism? here, let me quote the relevant parts to refresh your memory
<For a certain number of days assigned for the revolutionary upheaval and the disorders that are bound to follow, each person must join one or another of these artels according to his own choice… All those who remain isolated and unattached to workers' groups without sufficient reason will have no right of access either to the communal eating places or to the communal dormitories, or to any other buildings assigned to meet the various needs of the brother-workers or that contain the goods and materials, the victuals or tools reserved for all members of the established workers' society; in a word, he who without sufficient reason has not joined an artel, will be left without means of subsistence. All the roads, all the means of communication will be closed to him; he will have no other alternative but work or death.so that was nechayev, and marx replies
>What a beautiful model of barrack-room communism! Here you have it all: communal eating, communal sleeping, assessors and offices regulating education, production, consumption, in a word, all social activity, and to crown all, our committee, anonymous and unknown to anyone, as the supreme director. This is indeed the purest anti-authoritarianism.now did this happen in the ussr? of course not. it takes a second of reading to realize the ussr was not 'barracks communism'.
so point one fails. what about point two? how was it lassallean? (there are two S's in his name) what does it mean to be lassallean? define your terms. you have no clue what lassallean even means. do you mean to say that the ussr followed the gotha programme? is this what you are saying? or do you think in epic memes made by unemployed leftcoms how social democracy (whatever that means for you) = lassalle???? do you know that the RSDLP had its own programme?? do you??? what is your point of contention?? be specific.
notafloodnotaflood
>>2370263P sure that poster means "batina batina batina, disciplina e batina"
Like I'm going through my memes and so on (someone has to think of the memes) but he's the opposite number of that guy.
Of course he's far less whiny and way more entertaining
>Goli Otok should be reopened>God forbid I end up in heaven>If I wasn't beaten I would stab you right nowI think it's just "Stalin was a bad dude" and then searching for something which sounds legit
>>2370314"Abolish"
(Hegel's Aufhebung) used to
mean something, you know?! Regardless how you, a spectacle- /isg/- (etc.) addict label me, I would firmly reiterate: "Aufhebung"
is not "abolish.
In other words:, Learn2Marx, learn2Hegel, fag!
>>2370343True intellectualism is understanding that by abolition of the relations of Capital, Marx actually meant their eternal maintenance until economic determinism automatically turns capitalism into communism (somehow!), after all, Marx was nothing if not a teleologist!
Adolf Hitler WAS the real movement, read theory lib!
>>2370408See:
>>2370470(U r posting in a po-mo thread! No matter what u say u r problematic!)
>>2370470I would consider myself an Orthodox Marxist critiquing aggressive Kautskyite revisionists that genuinely think their personal sentimentality for 20th Century regimes amounts to a true reckoning with Marx’s outlook and beliefs tbh
I just find the utter cowardice of MLs to be, idk, disgusting? Pathetic? Beneath me?
Every last word typed by an ML is absolutely dripping with their desperate need for external validation, it’s genuinely disgusting to me. It pours out in waves when MLs shamelessly admit that, rather than any serious engagement with Marx as a theorist, instead they blindly, slavishly, express their reverence for self-described Marxists based purely on the power they managed to accrue rather than whether any of their actions matched the theorizations of the actual originators of scientific socialism; rather than admit they shamelessly vulgarize and falsify Marx, they instead engage in quite proud revisionism, and then call actual Marxists liberals. It’s quite disgusting to witness. And that disgust is compounded by their pathetic denial of the world historical failure and defeat of Marxism-Leninism.
If the Soviet Union didn’t exist, I swear to God most MLs would promote scum like Karl Kautsky or Eduard Bernstein as the greatest socialists in the history of the movement following the death of Marx. There isn’t really a limit to the opportunism of MLs, considering most are now staunch dengists as well; which is what you would expect, from a worm that kneels to power and force.
>>2370623I’d argue Hitler and contemporary MLs are both as close to anarchists as they are to each other, and all three present an unreachable gap to Marx himself
The funniest way to troll MLs is simply to quote Hitler or ᴉuᴉlossnW but convince them it’s something Xi Jinping said, since these retarded cunts don’t read, being teenagers and all
>>2370598Dude, you have literally nothing. Every single one of your "arguments" are baseless, moralist, idealist assertions. The fact that you can't comprehend that makes you scarily retarded
And I wasn't counter arguing you fucking baboon brained troglodyte, he was the one who dodged MY question, to go on a rant about muh slaughter and muh dead proles
Jesus christ, mashallah the arrogance of these morons
https://libcom.org/article/address-anarchists-antonio-gramsci-1920There, even libcom has it, not just marxists or any other obscure sites
No excuses
>>2370636Sure, I guess I believe in second, third etc. chances.
Or I must or I'd not even try, even a little.
>>2370657Tbf everything this guy writes is some sort of fit. And it's been going daily for some time. Scary is right. Good thing I ain't anywhere near the US.
It is about to get worse (and that's good actually).
>>2367220Define family.
Define religion.
Define work.
Define commodity.
Define state.
Define gender.
>>2370666I'm against religion too but imma keep it real withchu: I think these propaganda posters are racist as hell caricatures ngl.
Pic related is better at taking a shot at organized religion without engaging in anti-Semitic and anti-arab tropes.
>>2370666>when I spout racist islamophobia (which is like antisemitism was in Lenin's day) I'm being like le based thought leader, just look at these racist caricatures from the 30s!!The clownshow never ends with you
Why didn't you show the same disgust and irreverence to my mention of jesus? Is it because you are a ziorat racist?
I think you've shown us all the answer to that question
>>2370673'twas a different time but yeaaa
There is btw no record of Gagarin actually saying "I see no god up here", which I think that's referencing, I don't speaka da language
>>2370673I don’t disagree with you, but the point is Modern MLs are 100% pussies on the question of religion
>No, you see, Islam is a based, anti-Western pro-feudal religion!Fucking hilarious that MLoids shill for the exact tool the United States weaponized to destroy Marxism-Leninism in the MENA region
>>2370682Honestly? Because a honkie westerner saying “Jesus Christ” I can write off as a thoughtless expression due to the culture it was raised in within the West, vs having to go out of your way to reference Islam and signal your actual sympathies with religious idealism after all
I can forgive thoughtlessness, but slipping into a language you can’t actually speak and a way of talking that really only came about since 2023? Come on now son
>>2370941I do reject religion, indeed 😉
>>2370929You aren’t an Arab, neither was that poster
>>2370946>I do reject religion, indeed No you are an islamophobe who spazzes out at the first mention of an Arabic word lmao
>You aren’t an Arab, neither was that postedid my claim "t. doesn't know an arabic person" imply I was of arab descent?
>>2370617I went home, thought to myself, and abolished my wife and two children. They petunantly resisted, typical of their bourgeois ways: "Daddy, what do you mean by abolishing me?"
I smirked at that petulant child and ABOLISHED her.
Then, I went to my workplace on a monday, thought to myself, and abolished my boss. My petulant boss asked me: "But John, what do you mean by qbolishing me?"
I did not respond to his petulant ways, instead I abolished him.
On tuesday I went to buy groceries. I saw those petulant price-tags, and abolished them The petulant lady at the counter was like "Sir, you can't just walk out the store without paying for your groceries, Sir!!!"
I merely smirked, took a good look at her, and said
>Lady, you are ABOLISHEDShe was visibly stunned and abolished, never to bring this up again.
>>2371727It does have the energy of "just say no" (just do it, don't let your dreams be dreams)
People wanna make you work? Abolish
People wanna charge you? Abolish
Anything bad or unhappy in the world? Abolish
It's not even that I disagree with OP in the main. It is rather that 90 odd percent of people that talk about what OP is talking about instead of anything real, concrete are maximally useless.
It's like they have the "zeal of the convert", where newly converted are more "radical" than old heads. At the same time they don't actually take a side or a stand on anything real etc that really happens in the real world where we real people must live. It's definitely a playing both sides or trying to have your cake and eat it situation.
>>2371820Hegel's "beautiful soul," etc.
Honestly thanking you for your post, btw. You made me feel that I'm not alone in this universe.
Radicalised in the compromiser camp
I am so firmly middle of the road, I wear XXM
🎵
>>2371833Yes, the beautiful soul.
I do not think we are alone. I think people, most of them, are necessarily pragmatic. They are not usually taken in by promises of the land where milk and honey flow.
I do think even those people that are thinking in these terms of unreality will in the main, and for the most part, collide with reality sooner or later.
>>2367220>Abolish The Family. Agree
>Abolish Religion. Apathetic but yeah sure
>Abolish Wage Labour. ye
>Abolish Money. ye
>Abolish Work. No, work will always be necessary
>Abolish Commodity Production. ye
>Abolish the State. no
>Abolish Class. yes
>Abolish Private Property. yes
>Abolish the Nation. no
>Abolish Patriarchy. yes
>Abolish Gender. no but its an interesting idea
>Abolish Town and Country.no
>>2373171Funny meme right there.
Made me look up (german) grammar for the first time in like over a decade.
And here's what g*ogle says, quite unsurprisingly about the word.
This is all to say, if this discussion happens again, I'll just be over here insisting on the literal, trivial interpretation/translation.
Aufheben just means "to pick up" from the floor or such.
Or literally up (auf) heben (lift)
Uplift
Do you even lift, brah?
https://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/a/u.htmAufheben
Aufheben is a German word, crucial to Hegelian and Marxist thinking, for which there is no English equivalent.
Aufheben can be translated as to sublate, to abolish, to transcend or to supersede or even “to pick up,” “to raise,” “to keep,” “to preserve,” “to end” or “to annul.” Literally and originally, aufheben meant “to pocket,” as when someone pockets your payment but continues to work for you.
Something is aufheben when it is superseded by something else. “Supersede” and “transcend” do not carry the same connotation however as “abolish,” in which the old is actually terminated and got rid of by that which supersedes it; “sublation” carries the connotation of “including” the old in the new, but is altogether too platonic and misses the sense of “abolish.”
Engels authorised the use of “abolish” in the English translation of The Communist Manifesto where it talks of the aufheben of the family; this however gives leeway to those who would simply ban the institutions of religion, or dismiss the very existence of spiritual needs. The translators of the Introduction to the Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right variously used “abolish” and “supersede” according to context.
Generally speaking, when reading English translations of Marx and Engels, the words “abolish,” “supersede” and “sublate” are most likely translations of aufheben, and should be understood in that sense, as something being made obsolete by means of resolving the problems that gave rise to it in some new way.
>>2367220>hegelian discourselol leftoid moment
marx himself constantly made fun of hegels many stupidities
>>2377565>atheismAtheism isn't inherently the negation of religious thinking. I don't mean that in the dumb "atheism is a religion too!" sense, I mean that in the sense that we shouldn't confuse religious
form with religious
content. Richard Dawkins is a prominent example of what I mean. Avid proponent of atheism and secularism, and career biologist who regularly applies scientific methodology. However, we can see in how he navigates the world that he is still steeped in religious thinking, to the point where he has aligned himself with religious fundamentalist and fascist forces on multiple causes. Because at the end of the day ending religious thinking isn't a matter of ending this or that religion, because the religions aren't what reproduce that thinking. What reproduces that thinking is capitalist society itself, and we see its expression outside of religious institutions, for example as the "employee mentality" where workers are trained to have an almost Pavlovian need to look to superiors for directions.
>I don't see what function religion would serve in a modern socialist nation such that it cannot be feasably abolished.Conveniently, this line from your post is a good example of what I mean. While you are arguing against religion in the
form of this statement, the
content of this statement is a teleological argument, a line of thinking grounded in religious thinking. Does everything in a given society exist with a preordained "function" or purpose? No, no society functions like this. They are not machines where each moving part has a specific purpose to the whole. There are plenty of social practices in various societies which persist despite having no real "function", and trying to assign such a function post-hoc only leads to mechanical, one-sided, religious thinking. Does getting a tattoo (for example) have a direct "function" in capitalism, or is it moreso social expression and cultural practice that can both be used by capitalism and act in spite of it? On the flip side, expecting a future society to work this way is completely utopian.
Whether religion would have a function in a socialist state isn't really relevant to the question of whether religion would
exist in such a state. The real question is what it will actually take for religious and spiritual practice to wither away after religious thinking is ended, or if they will wither away at all? There's a solid chance that, like in all previous systems of production, what religion and spirituality are and mean will be revised once again by the new ruling classes (the proletariat) into new forms with new thinking, and that these new things too will be revised again as the world moves to communism.
>>2387016>Atheism isn't inherently the negation of religious thinking.True, most pagans I know are atheistic, yet they still hold some of their practices, morals, tastes of their peers, etc… above and against themselves religiously.
Atheism is step one, agnosticism is step two, ceasing to entertain the theism debate entirely is step three, and there's a long trail worth of steps after that on the road freedom from religious thinking.
>>2387060there is confusion here
atheism concerns "theos"
paganism generally concerns "ethos"
thats why when atheists get a bit spicy they call themselves pagan, but it is really an ethical attitude.
>the road freedom from religious thinkingman is a religious animal. trying to escape one deity just puts you in the jaws of another. thats why agnosticism is the most rational and open position.
>>2387016I think I got it but I cannot quite explain it satisfactorily.
I mean, I don't know about negation and negation of the negation and all that.
The superseding of religious belief is not rejection but something else. "A secret third option".
Superstition is superseded by the end of superstition. Religion in concrete terms will cease to exist in the institutional sense. We do not need cloisters, monasteries or preachers as we do not labor under the delusion that some guy has a special relationship to the supernatural, the holy.
However, here's where it gets a bit tricky.
>Unconscious metaphysics tends to be bad metaphysics.The mundane is the spiritual and the Spiritual is mundane. As a layman I feel like this makes the most sense. It's a "how could it be any other way?" "Well, naturally" type of deal. I am far from a theologian but smart or religiously educated is where I heard this from. One being Gabor Maté who I heard mention this in a video I do not quite remember the name or topic of. Or Buddhadasa, who became controversial for what I believe is a rather similar approach. In the end it turns out to be a distinction without a difference.
Or I suppose with Spinoza: God is the world and the world is God.
Trying to bring it back to the "abolish" term or "supersede" or transcend (go beyond), this is one example of two opposites "cancelling each other" (not quite).
>>2387751>Hard agnositicism "I literally can't know if God exists or not"Ah fuck, someone made the line 2D. Now we gotta chart this shit in a grid of [believes deities exist, doesn't care / hold a belief on the matter, believes deities don't exist] x [believes that's knowable, doesn't care / hold a belief on the matter, believes that's unknowable]. That 9 positions, 6 more than before. Science damn it.
The only rational position on that grid is, the center: agnostic ag-idk-ism.
>>2388164again, projecting
>>2388175tone indicators belong in the trash
>>2387016As for your first paragraph, I think you are just confusing religion for a certain class position. Richard Dawkins is not religious whatsoever, and idk how you could think he was. But he supports the ruling class when they have a certain expression. He agrees with Christians sometimes not because he is religious but because they are both upholding the ruling class. I mean you know this. I think you just (rightfully) don't like him and the kind of atheism he represents, so you think of him as religious because of that.
Dawkins is an idealist, same as the Christians. But idealism is not religion. You have to be idealist (on some level, even if in practice you view most of the world through materialism) to be religious or spiritual, but you don't have to be religious to be an idealist.
Religion was a specific social-economic thing that slowly became ingrained in the social consciousness until it feels almost overwhelming and unescapeable today. But it obviously did not exist forever, and neither did spirituality. Animals are not spiritual.
I've said this to you before, but religion, spirituality and idealism are just certain stages in human thought, reflecting the social-economic reality of the day. There is a reason to get rid of them. Spirituality is idealist, so it will have to go along with idealism as a whole. It only seems eternal because lots of people are spiritual today, even though it is really just a social viroid. Without a base of misery and craving for it to exist, spirituality can easily be removed. Unless you think it is part of human nature or consciousness?
>>2388191>can easily be removed.And who will be doing this removing? Maybe Mr Bronstein sitting in the Café Central?
I won't even get into what you believe is natural or "forever existing". You have to be "idealist" or metaphysically inclined to look at the issue (or any issue) like that in the first place.
>>2388767read heraclitus or lao tzu
λόγος is the eternal order in chaos, like 道
>>2388854I mean, me, I am an old man. So I may be susceptible to the occasional crude joke.
We love our trans lads and ladies around the real communist table tho.
It's a different timeline to the point it is a disparate concept in reality tho. Saying if no one's cis "normal", there is no more trans as a concept is quite distinct from saying "trans people don't exist right now", which you know, no one with any clue or connection to reality holds this view.
Abolishing the concept of gender itself is as much an aggression as communism is "prole erasure". I think it shows people can talk about very different things while appearing to be on the same page at least to some extent.
>>2389513Federalism, Socialism, Anti-Theologism by Mikhail Bakunin
<Recognition of the absolute right of each nation, great or small, of each people, weak or strong, of each province, of each commune, to complete autonomy, provided its internal constitution is not a threat or a danger to the autonomy and liberty of neighboring countries.<The League will recognize nationality as a natural fact which has an incontestable right to a free existence and development<revolution, i.e., the emancipation of nations and men. >>2388825Ancient philosophers should not inform your ideology.
>>2388839I think the perfect living setup can be inspired by Tulou and big blocks of flats. Every individual gets their own bedroom, large enough for a single bed, desk and booskhelf (or whatever the building allows, if this is far in the future they can be as big as anyone wants) because a private, personal space is important for mental health and wellbeing. Sharing a bedroom sucks and we don't need to do that anymore, concrete is cheap after all. 5-10 rooms will make up a unit or apartment, who will share a kitchen, dining room and toilets. Generally you can hang out with everyone here to watch TV, cook meals for each other (or on your own if you don't want to), socialize on a day to day basis etc.. Then there will be floors or sections, or just the whole building if it is a smaller one. Each floor will allow everyone in it, maybe a hundred people, to go between units without being stopped so they can socialize with everyone. They will share recreation area and will do cultural festivals together in a central area. All the units will lead out into the central space. This space can also have lots of like community arts and crafts, pop up factories etc.. And then there is the whole building.
>>2373266I mean really the state is an artifact of trade, money is just arbitrage par excellence. The state arises from trade because the trade in goods and services leads to the trade in workers and any system of slavery needs violent enforcement which is found under capitalism in the unrelenting violence of the state against the reserve pool of labor. The function of the state is not to oppress the workers, the function of the state is to oppress the reserve pool of labor. The capitalist pays the managerial strata to buy and sell labor, the capitalists and the managerial strata wash their hands of the violence themselves. The state and money are only a means to buy and sell workers, it is the buying and selling of workers which is the problem.
It follows to abolish money that the slaves must take up the slave trade themselves. LinkedIn, HR, all these services for selling the body must be seized by the working class and democratized. Only then can we abolish the wage and the state.
>>2389549the fact that the nation is mentioned here does not mean you have to reify the nation as a concept.
the entitlement of every province to complete autonomy already implies within itself the abolition of nations, as such. granted complete autonomy there are two possibilities: regions will converge in such a way as to blur national boundaries, or regions will diverge in such a way as to blur national boundaries. even today, i wouldn't consider it contentious to say that (say) the scots at the scottish border and the english at the english border have many more things in common with one another than with their supposed co-nationals in the far north and far south respectively.
or, indeed, within scotland and england you could point to orkney+shetland or cornwall: they are not so nationally distinct as to have major independence movements, but they have high regional conciousness and a distinct ethnic/cultural background. to cut them off from scotland and england as different nations would be inaccurate, but it would equally be inaccurate to imagine them as just scottish or english. they're one of those awkward cases that shows the nation is really a weird little abstraction that doesn't necessarily stand up to close scrutiny - a nation is what a nation is, but at a certain point where every 50 square km is its own "nation", the nation has functionally been abolished.
Jews will never be free until Judaism is abolished, as Karl Marx demonstrates. Judaism must be abolished because judaism = zionism = capitalism. Humanity will never be free until judaism is abolished.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/jewish-question/Let us consider the actual, worldly Jew – not the Sabbath Jew, as Bauer does, but the everyday Jew. Let us not look for the secret of the Jew in his religion, but let us look for the secret of his religion in the real Jew. What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money. Money is the jealous god of Israel, in face of which no other god may exist. Money degrades all the gods of man – and turns them into commodities. Money is the universal self-established value of all things. It has, therefore, robbed the whole world – both the world of men and nature – of its specific value. Money is the estranged essence of man’s work and man’s existence, and this alien essence dominates him, and he worships it. The god of the Jews has become secularized and has become the god of the world. The bill of exchange is the real god of the Jew. His god is only an illusory bill of exchange. Once society has succeeded in abolishing the empirical essence of Judaism – huckstering and its preconditions – the Jew will have become impossible, because his consciousness no longer has an object, because the subjective basis of Judaism, practical need, has been humanized, and because the conflict between man’s individual-sensuous existence and his species-existence has been abolished. The social emancipation of the Jew is the emancipation of society from Judaism.
>>2390683I mean no one is suggesting that the nation is a very concrete thing, to do that would be to fall into bourgeois nationalism, which Bakunin advises against as in actuality nationalism only serves to destroy actually existing organic nations in the quest for a singular reified nation to be utilized by the state.
>regions will converge in such a way as to blur national boundaries, or regions will diverge in such a way as to blur national boundaries.National boundaries for us exist as they are, not as they somehow ought to be, as for the bourgeois nationalists. In both of these cases nations, distinct communities of people with distinct cultures, continue to exist, in some form or another, and that is what we mean by "free existence and development"
>>2391141If you westoid you die
Nothing personnel
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