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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internet about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
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Not reporting is bourgeois


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<Abolish The Family.
<Abolish Religion.
<Abolish Wage Labour.
<Abolish Money.
<Abolish Work.
<Abolish Commodity Production.
<Abolish the State.
<Abolish Class.
<Abolish Private Property.
<Abolish the Nation.
<Abolish Patriarchy.
<Abolish Gender.
<Abolish Town and Country.
If you don't think these are the ultimate goals for a communist party or organization to achieve, I'm sorry to say this but you're not a communist but rather just an edgy social democrat.

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Ok. I'm not a communist.

"abolish" here means "overcome"

>>2367220
press the abolish button then

>>2367223
It's lao Russia lies on you!

>no abolition of reality
typical ML zigger first world treatlerite scumoid thinking and toughting

>>2367249
>>2367232
It's easier for MLs to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism

File: 1751506801609.png (280.43 KB, 955x660, 1728002138876201.png)

>>2367220
>just an edgy social democrat

>>2367220
could Kevin McCallister have secured the NERV compound during the JSDF's invasion

Ummm actually by "abolish" they meant "sublate" and by "sublate" they meant keep them intact but make them based.

lmao how is this even controversial. This website fucking sucks.

>>2367220
>Abolish The Family.
Agree.
>Abolish Religion.
Curious how you intend to differentiate between religious institutions and religious belief and put this all into practice, but I agree in principle.
>Abolish Wage Labour.
Agree.
>Abolish Money.
Agree.
>Abolish Work.
Agree in the long term, but this will at the very least not happen until communism, and even then how exactly this can be accomplished is entirely beyond us at this time. My point being that this is essentially empty phrasemongering until well after communism becomes dominant worldwide.
>Abolish Commodity Production.
Agree.
>Abolish the State.
Agree.
>Abolish Class.
Agree.
>Abolish Private Property.
Agree.
>Abolish the Nation.
Agree, with the caveat that in the present era of imperialism — particularly with the neo-colonial and settler-colonial domination of nations worldwide — this is a reactionary demand unless we understand the necessary alliance of national liberation movements and socialist revolution in the present era. Only well into the era where socialism is dominant worldwide will we be able to start talking about the abolition of nations in a genuine way.
>Abolish Patriarchy.
Agree.
>Abolish Gender.
Agree.
>Abolish Town and Country.
Agree.

A Reddit tourist

<Abolish The Family.
Done with private property and patriarchy. People can live how they want.
<Abolish Religion.
Don't care we aren't in the 19th century and back, burger megachurches are just a business scheme to not pay taxes handled with abolishing private property
<Abolish Wage Labour.
Yes
<Abolish Money.
Yes
<Abolish Work.
Not until we can automate everything, kiddo.
<Abolish Commodity Production.
Yes
<Abolish the State.
Capture the state, nobody wants artisnal sewer systems and disaster relief
<Abolish Class.
Yes. But the proletariat has to rule first.
<Abolish Private Property.
Yes
<Abolish the Nation.
Yes
<Abolish Patriarchy.
Yes, although the vestiges of it is all that exists in the first world. Mostly handled by abolishing private property
<Abolish Gender.
Irrelevant
<Abolish Town and Country.
Yes

Yet you refuse to abolish public schooling.
I agree with all else but you have to include public schooling in the list of abolition

>>2367220
>Abolish Work
Is this terminological autism or do you literally think there will not be a need for labor in full communism?

>>2367486
That's not what people mean by "abolish work". It's about making it unalienated and thus no longer work in the sense we think of it, but a pure expression of humankind's natural creative/constructive potential and inclinations. You still do labour it's just not miserable and alienating.

>>2367510
On one hand, the practical aspects of that are already covered by abolish wage labor right? Once wage labor is abolished you're no longer having surplus value siphoned off from you as profit so exploitation has vanished. On the other though I think it's a little utopian to think that working in a mine will ever be a pure expression of creativity or that there isn't some fundamental alienation from the product of your labor baked into a global economy. Even under full communism if you're churning out machine parts all day you're not directly experiencing what eventually comes of those goods like someone under primitive communism who sits around making arrowheads all day.

obviously all that shit gets abolished but if u think communism is just a fuckin bullet point checklist of shit to cancel you’re not a communist either lmao

>>2367455
yah the gender thing is kinda silly tbh

>abolish abolish abolish abolish
Again, it's about sublation not just uga-booga abolishment. It's a bit more complex than that
<Abolish Work
Now that's outright retarded.
<Abolish the Nation
Nations exist whether you like it or not and. Don't conflate the nation state with the existence of nations.

>>2367455
You can never automate everything. Sure most of heavy industry can be automated potentially, but people still want handmade arts and crafts, a haircut by a human etc. - I'd also to automate everything in heavy industry or agriculture is a pipedream.

Unless you want everything to be replaced with AI slop in which case I guess I'm not a communist.

>>2367220
The problem is that communist abolition is always a long process over which the old social relations are gradually strangled out by the new. Even the most basic demand, abolition of private property, requires decades of work to make it stick, and no socialist country that implemented it exists today. Bourgeois abolition is very easy in comparison because the social relations it removes are always well on their way to death, that question wouldn't be brought up otherwise. These are two very different phenomena that happen to share a name, and most wannabe communists still don't quite understand the distinction despite reading the material since the force of habit they developed by living in bourgeois society is too strong.

>abolish gender
Abolish transgenders

>>2367599
Nations came into existence with capitalism. They exist in the sense that they're social realities a realistic Communist movement has to deal with but they don't have any real existence. And while MLs have the right of it if we're taking dogmatic adherence to Lenin as the rule, we only need to look at how the USSR and Yugoslavia ended up or how many national liberation movements ended up ditching the socialism and keeping the nationalism to see that the typical 20th century line on nationalism was a failure. At best Communist parties were able to latch onto bourgeoise national movements in pre/semi-capitalist countries, use that to come to power and then start building socialism. But that's a very limited playbook that is no longer relevant in most of the world. And MLs routinely invented nationalism even when they weren't forced to deal with it, the Soviet policy towards the republics was explicitly geared towards forming national cultures and identities.

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>>2367599
>This aufhebung shit again
Both Marx and Engels approved of "abolish" as a correct translation of aufhebung and used the term in several speeches they gave in English.

>>2367605
Abolishing gender means abolishing transgenders

>>2367610
They 'approved' of that terminology because they couldn't parse the nuance being lost in English. They barely spoke English. This really isn't the circumvention of fate you think it is.

>>2367605
If no one is assigned a gender, in a sense everyone will be transgender in the way they interact with and integrate into society. Under communism everyone will be trans, you heard it from me first.

>>2367613
Yeah ok bro sublate (aufhebung) is a super nuanced word which means "keep everything the exact same just make it more Proletarian™" Do I get a free membership into the ACP now?

>>2367615
hurrr my only response is to summon a strawmen laden with millennial sarcasm
off yourself, you moron. Nobody ever said what you're assuming and the fact that you can't intuit anykind of nuance inbetween the positions being espoused here reveals the vacuity of your theoretical grasp.

>>2367618
*strawman

>>2367614
If nobody is assigned a gender and if patriarchy and the gender norms that come with it are abolished then what opposite gender is there for trans people to transition to? Trans identity makes no sense without gender and patriarchy. And I don't say that to call trans people in general horrible misogynists or something but it's obviously a historically specific phenomenon and I don't see how it's possible to say otherwise without spooky essentialism, spiritual or biological.

>>2367618
Like, the uyghur I'm responding to you earnestly believes that Marx was indistinguishable from an anarchist and just wanted things to be 'smashed out of existence' lmfao. The best part is that the hollowness of the term 'abolish' relative to the utility of 'sublate' is self-apparent in the context of the philosophical ramifications written out by Marx, but the retard can't parse any of that and has to assume maximal literalism, like the hopeless theorycel autist he is.

>>2367599
>>2367602
Wage labour =/= Labour power or creative human social activity. You also cannot have communism with the division of labour, Marx is clear on this.

>>2367620
I don't think it is clear to what degree abolishing gender will make gender expression itself outmoded. It will obviously not be preserved in the current form and maybe splinter into a myriad ways of expression where it might not even be particular useful to call it gender, yet this is nothing new. Take the nuclear bourgeois family for instance, which, reproductive labor aside, retains almost none of the characteristics of other historical family units.

>>2367610
Yeah and it's a bad translation, at least because insofar retards today can't understand it. Maybe they approved of it at the time because their English-speaking peers weren't complete retards and at least slightly familiar with Hegel and dialectics.

Today it's a bad translation because retards like OP will completely misunderstand it and think of it in the literal sense of how it is used today.

It simply better to use sublation for Aufhebung (which does not translate to abolition btw, at least in the aforementioned modern sense) because it's more precise. People think today about the immediate destruction of state, private property, family, etc. which quite obviously undialectical.

>>2367609
>Nations came into existence with capitalism.
Yeah, so when the Romans spoke of natio/nationes they were capitalist. I can't think of a more ahistorical take.
>A nation is a historically constituted, stable community of people, formed on the basis of a common language, territory, economic life, and psychological make-up manifested in a common culture.
- Stalin

That has existed since clan society vanished and civilizations like the Sumerians came up. Of course there are certain characteristics of how capitalism centralizes and streamlines a nation eradicating others in the process (for example in France, completely erasing Occitanian culture) but the nation state is not equivalent with a nation.

Total Transgender Abolition

>>2367639
"Ex" Nazis are so easy to spot.

Gender is patriarchy. Therefore transgenders are patriarchy

>>2367633
Then fucking say wage labor and not just work to sound edgy. I hate this shit, no normal worker will understand it.
<Every child knows a nation which ceased to work, I will not say for a year, but even for a few weeks, would perish. Every child knows, too, that the masses of products corresponding to the different needs required different and quantitatively determined masses of the total labor of society. That this necessity of the distribution of social labor in definite proportions cannot possibly be done away with by a particular form of social production but can only change the mode of its appearance , is self-evident. No natural laws can be done away with. What can change in historically different circumstances is only the form in which these laws assert themselves. And the form in which this proportional distribution of labor asserts itself, in the state of society where the interconnection of social labor is manifested in the private exchange of the individual products of labor, is precisely the exchange value of these products.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1868/letters/68_07_11-abs.htm

>>2367641
>no argument, so just call him a nazi when he quotes Stalin
Ex-Libs are so easy to spot

Seems like an easier angle at this would be to say "to be a communist is to abolish spooks"

>>2367640
>>2367642
total moid sterilization
>what do you mean that's not a direct consequence of abolishing the family?

>>2367650
Cut out your cock and balls then

>>2367650
Transgenders existed back in the ancient times too, dummy

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>>2367645
NTA butNations have indeed existed before capitalism but I don't see why they should continue to exist after it. Time has proven that although the Leninist line on the National Question was correct for the time, in the long run it has only lead to chauvinism and capitalism.

>>2367635
Regardless it's obviously retarded to say that transsexuality in its present form will exist under communism, let alone that everyone will be trans.
>>2367642
If we're taking gender to mean social roles and forms of behavior that are culturally assigned to a biological sex then yes. Without the idea that men dress and act a certain way and women dress and act a certain other way then what is there to base a trans identity on? Everything that's now "gendered" would just be neutral because everyone is doing the same work and fulfilling the same social roles regardless of sex.
>>2367645
Nazism is liberalism thoughbeit.

>>2367612
It's odd to emphasize that specifically when it's only a byproduct of abolishing cisgenderism as a practice. If you're never assigned a gender at birth, there's nothing to transition from.

>>2367655
Nations is a new thing, you are wrong

>>2367658
>cisgenderism
Essentialism

Transgenders are a byproduct of patriarchy. They are enemical to it

>>2367661
Yes, gender assignment is an essentialist practice and should be abolished. Most of gender as a concept would die off as a result of that.

>>2367663
I mean saying cisgenderism is essentialism

Sage

I genuinely wonder if this is a fed. I was reading the Wikipedia page for Grenada today, America seemed to be basically tripping over itself as soon as any pretense for a violent regime change emerged. For instance, American soldiers were using literal tourist maps where key features like runways had to be drawn on. I take this not so much as evidence of the incompetence of the military, but that the very instant a communist vulnerability presented itself, it was a top priority that it had to be immediately exploited, even more important that actually planning and executing the mission.
With the election of Zohran, I really do feel certain that revolution/civil war is imminent in the future, there’s no way on the face of the planet that plans for communist murder aren’t already being drawn up in the most powerful boardrooms in this country. I wonder if something like a police coup could be possible, or some kind of “nonviolent” federal siege on NYC. Our rural populace genuinely hate our cities and anything that requires funding or maintenance (the materially existing country itself), which I bring up not because I think the feds would feel the need to have popular support, but because I think insecure retards from NW NJ or NC would eagerly volunteer their lives and money for the opportunity to live out their fantasy of dignifying their victimhood with the blood of their countrymen, who literally will be closest thing to something that they can identify as a badguy.

Like dawg, all these 2A fed hating orcs are probably going to get mobilized against us in some sort of absurd reverse cultural revolution. We need to start banding together and figuring out ways to find and support each other, and we need to stop thinking of communism as a checklist for Eden and we need to start thinking of it as a team.

>>2367656
>Regardless it's obviously retarded to say that transsexuality in its present form will exist under communism, let alone that everyone will be trans.
You fail to see gender expression as a distinct concept from the current social institution of gender. "Everyone will be trans" is obviously a bit of an exaggeration, but in the absence of current norms i do think a lot more people will actively present as something and take hormones. I don't strictly define transition as transitioning into the "opposite gender", rather as consciously changing ones relation to society in a drastic way. In this way future "gender" should emerge as a kind of synthesis between transgenderism and very intricate subcultures.

>>2367664
>saying cisgenderism is essentialism
>defining essentialist constructs is itself somehow essentialist
You usually need to define things to critique them, especially for immanent critique, since you need the thing being critiqued to have an internal logic to use that internal logic against it. Unless you're doing a Plato thing where defining shapes is essentialism.

>>2367660
>>2367660
The current form of the Nation-State is indeed a "new" product of capitalism and the bourgeoisie since at least the 1600s but Nations have existed long before.

>>2367666
The MEK thread was what did it for me. Ultras are unfortunately real enough all on their own but the shilling this place gets is obvious consensus cracking and in cases like that straight up propaganda for a CIA proxy.

>>2367673
You uyghas always accuse people of being evil CIA agents whenever someone slightly deviates from the echo-chamber consensus of the board. Name one fucking thing that's wrong or anti-communist with the things mentioned in the OP.

>>2367676
MEK is literally a known CIA proxy, that's not debatable. And ultras were shilling them here as based anti-campists. I am not a campist and I don't think all ultras are CIA, a lot of you are just zoomer retards who jumped on the ICP fad because of the memes. But when it glows it glows and it sometimes does.

>>2367677
Wasn't there for the MEK thread nor do I care about Iran. I ask you again, what exactly is anti-communist or ultraleftist about wanting to get rid of the State and Private Property? Shouldn't this be the goal of all communists?

>>2367683
I don't disagree with anything in the OP unless the implication is that if year 1 of DOTP all that hasn't been done that you have a counterrevolutionary system. Which knowing you retards is possible.

What I definitely do disagree with is 50% of the catalog being low effort bait ripped from /r/ultraleft, that's the definition of sliding. If you're going to spam this shit then at least put together researched and well thought out posts.

This is what is known in political terms as a maximal position or maximal program.
Saying because you hold such and such position you are eternally politically correct is cheap, isn't it?
It is a retreat into fantasy or utopia.
The question is what are you prepared to do about it?
As old Merkel said: "Well, they are here now." One way or another you will have to interact with reality, you can't hide from it forever. Reality has a tendency to assert itself, that is what makes it true.
Old Oscar, after being thrown into prison on trumped-up charges, like so many real comrades, wrote "what is realised is right".
Anyway, this is the new thread about the real and unreal. More metaphysical than political.
I tire a bit explaining the same rather simple ideas so I will refrain from expounding further.
It will stop being stupid or it gets the Orwell again.

>>2367677
>ICP fad
You shut your whore mouth about icp

>>2367693
Which ICP? There are two after all. Or did you mean the ICT or ICC? All sectarian microparties that nobody even inside of the Italian left knows anything about aside from the memes. It's definitely not ideology shopping to latch onto a foreign microparty because of memes and a social clique right? Nope, that's the real movement and literally everyone outside this irrelevant little bubble is a leftist who probably watches Hasan or something.

>>2367637
>>2367599
>>2367610
>>2367613

>aufhebung

Guys it's not some magic word, it just means to officially end or disintegrate something, to break something down. Like the dissolution of a club would be called an aufhebung. In this context abolish, is a bit harsh or someone might interpret it in a negationist way, but it's a perfectly serviceable translation

>>2367779
Nah, it's not the mere dissolution of something. Engels' example of turning water into steam when quantity turns into quality is the easiest example, it's still water but in an aggregate state.

>>2367801
It's not the "mere" dissolution, but it is does note some form of ending/obliteration. In the water example you could say the "abolition"(aufhebung) of water (as a fluid) and that might be what M&E meant, but as a word it just means to end basically, in a formal way the particular state of something, the dialectical restructuring into the new is not inherent to the term

>>2367220
Imagine thinking this was a quality OP to produce.
This site is so dead. it's never going to be moderated again. It's never going to improve.

>>2367220
Based based based
Except most of this board aren’t even socdems these days, they’re just hitlerites that happen to hate westerners and white people by sheer happenstance; they aren’t posting on sites like /pol/, Stormfront, or incels.is mostly by accident

>>2367835
>shitting your diapers over this
lol

>>2367599
>Tfw tell an ML to abolish the Fatherland so it instantly puts on its swastika

>>2367639
>Stalin
<Pedophile manlet and butcher of communists loved by red nationalists the world over
No thanks, think I’ll stick to Marx and Lenin on this one

>>2367599
>It's a bit more complex than that
<its not abolishment its actually going extinct!!!!!
lol

>nations as an eternal abstraction

pseud retard

>arguing over abstractions
meanwhile the capitalists
<are going to kill you

>>2367965
All those things are concrete existing phenomena that will go away along with class society. Liberals turning them into abstractions because ideology lacks explanatory power is a different matter entirely.

>>2367965
>The structural features that hold capitalism in place are le abstractions anyway
<That’s why we all need to bow down to black Hitler so we are morally in the right when he gets bombed by the West in imperialist war #5,798
Based

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We do not want to abolish them in the sense of eliminating them, but to negate them and raise them up in the dialectical process.
As if we deny society by elevating the present society to a socialist society.

In my opinion, utopians are dreamers, and anarchists have proved too sterile to get through the revolutionand Lenin was too much absorbed in pure ideology. Therefore, we need a scientific method of governing the new socialist society and the balance between consumption and production, reframing it from convenience production to energy investment.
In my opinion, technocracy (in the sense of scientists, engineers, planners - rules society instead of bourgeois politicians or corporate parasites. It means central planning based on data and expertise, not vibes or profits and not Elon Musk retardism where more green for private firms = big profits) would be enough to achieve this.
<Elevate the Family
→ From property-based unit to a freely chosen community of care, affection, and education, beyond inheritance and domination.>

<Elevate Religion

→ From dogma and authority to a spiritual ethic of communion, awe, and immanence, rooted in lived human freedom.>

<Elevate Wage Labour

→ From alienated compulsion to meaningful, self-directed activity integrated into life, learning, and communal purpose.>

<Elevate Money

→ From capitalist abstraction to transparent accounting of social energy and value, subordinated to human needs.>

<Elevate Work

→ From survival-based toil to creative, self-expressive action within a cybernetic ecology of production and leisure.>

<Elevate Commodity Production

→ From market fetishism to democratic, need-based, ecologically rational distribution and design.>

<Elevate the State

→ From coercive authority to a transparent, technocratic framework for coordination, care, and collective decision-making.>

<Elevate Class

→ From material antagonism to differentiated roles in a fluid, merit-based, solidaristic community.>

<Elevate Private Property

→ From exclusionary ownership to stewardship and shared access in accordance with use, care, and responsibility.>

<Elevate the Nation

→ From ethnos and borders to cultural self-articulation within planetary solidarity and human cosmopolitanism.>

<Elevate Patriarchy

→ From domination to reciprocal respect and synthesis of the feminine, masculine, and beyond.>

<Elevate Gender

→ From rigid social coding to free becoming and lived difference in harmony with nature and spirit.>

<Elevate Town and Country

→ From ecological rupture to integrated, distributed life-worlds that unite rhythm, place, and community

so much for 'abolishing the present state of things'

>>2367978
Ackshually the present state of things is the perfidious Jewish objective Yank dissolution of the Holy Family, the Fatherland, True Religion via filthy Yankoid megachurches, Proper Proletarian Labor via deindustrialization, True Valuable Commodities via filthy digital industries, Real Physical Property, Money with ACTUAL value due to FIAT and DEBT, TRUE MASCULINITY WITH THE SPREAD OF AMERICAN GLOBALIST FEMINISM, and the CLASSICAL Trve Essence of the Country and a Metropolitan Area loyal to the Nation and its Volk

Destroy America

Save Evropa

This is true communism now, don’t be such a fucking dogmatist lib

Read Hitler

File: 1751551227870.jpg (45.56 KB, 1200x884, Gu3nhzcXIAAQOg-.jpg)

All that shit happens as a result of the abolition of property whether anyone of us likes it or not. Are the morons ITT from EITHER side trying to say shit like i.e. monogamy is volitionally abolished? Why can you retards never understand when bourgeois society is the subject of discussion? Was the US allowing i.e. no-fault divorces a communist measure then?

real radlib hours

>>2367232
>>2367440
>>2367599
Way to betray yourselves as a philistine that believes the revolutionary activity of a class to somehow not entail the abolition of the social relations its antagonistic to.

>>2367975
made up shit nobody said award

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>>2367220
><Abolish Gender.
Lmao.

Maybe we'll finally combine sex and gender back at most.

>>2367998
Leftypolers say something like that every day lmao

>>2368004
>noo not my bourgeois concept please
libtard detected

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I dunno it's all pretty clear if you look beyond the slogans.

>>2368014
>MLoid confusing the immense challenges of abolishing the mediations of Capital with apologetics for maintaining those same mediations


>>2368018
>Anti-MLoid thinks having the mediations of capitalism on society and not instantly banning them won't have consequences means you are instantly out of the little communist club.

>>2368032
What the actual fuck do you think happens when your every action reproduces the relations of capital in your rotted fucking mind?

I dunno, I don't think there is much that could help you.
Remember, reality comes for everyone except the most fortunate.

>another bad faith thread shitting up a dying board

You are all getting older and you're going to regret the time you wasted acting like an obnoxious moron just to trigger people you'll never meet

>>2368043
> you're going to regret the time you wasted acting like an obnoxious moron just to trigger people you'll never meet
I think we're long passed that point, they've doubled down and this is who they are now.
It's never to late to change, however, to the OP. Although it will probably entail actually going out and engaging your state and its mental health services.

>>2368043
Nothing more bad faith than arguing a nationalistic theocrat that worships the domination of laborers by not!capital and adheres to male chauvinism cannot actually be a socialist anymore than Hitler could

>>2368039
Tankie is a silly term
The proper term would be red liberal or brown hitlerite

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As per >>2367690
Famously a horse may be lead to water, it cannot be made to drink
>>2368043
My hope, I think it is grounded enough, is that these people are quite young. Typically school to college age. And typically they'll impact on reality with some force and accompanying pain.
It is a self-correcting problem.

>>2368047
>>2368043
>>2368057
You are a transgender

>>2368010
I'm trans myself you faggot retard. I bet you're one of those "enbies" who calls everyone "transmedicalist" without knowing what it even actually means.

>bourgeois concept

99% of the time in articles about non-western cultures or pre-20th century history you can read "non-binary", "third gender", "unclear/undefined gender identity", and all related terms, as just "trans woman". :)

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ok


>Tankie! Authoritarian! Stalinist! Redfash! Commie!

>>2368043
Have you ever considered we might enjoy arguing with people on the internet?

Say something about gay and transgender workers

>>2368088
What you are and what you are doing is le bad. A microfascism. A ressentiment

>>2368089
why the need to separate them from the rest of the proletariat (assuming thats what you mean by "workers")

>>2368091
Cry about it

What’s the positive alternative to any of that exactly?

>>2368092
>need
>oh god im gonna assooom oh god amassoooming aaaahjj

I mean yeah>>2367976
>Elevate Religion
>→ From dogma and authority to a spiritual ethic of communion, awe, and immanence, rooted in lived human freedom.

International eradication of idealism NOW(Rule 15)


>>2368102
cuz theres no need to do it lol

>>oh god im gonna assooom oh god amassoooming aaaahjj

channers have liquefied brains bruh

Its very telling of how infected leftists are with bourgeois ideology when even they themselves think actual communism (as understood by most Marxists in the 19th and early 20th century) is impossible. But instead of admitting this themselves they either -

1) Claim communism is something else, like state ownership or planned capitalism or something.

2) Claim real communism is possible but its not possible now because of [bullshit reason] and therefore the important task now is to be a nationalist of some type (Islamic or Chinese or some random 3rd world country)

Leftists are the left-wing of capital. Although in recent years even this definition has become strained, what with leftist support for theocracies, reactionary policies, imperialism etc etc. Leftists were never communists, but nowadays they aren't even leftist.

I think leftism is dying and that's a good thing. EU countries are now like 40% centre-left party, 20% centre-right party and 40% far-right party. With the far right section staedily growing.

The Middle East is, well, a theocratic shithole. China continues to build their glorious class-collaborationist Singapore society. The Pink Tide is dead in South America. South Asia and North America never had any relevant leftist political forces. South East Asia is just too busy growing economically to care about this shit. And even leftists don't give a shit about Africa anymore, let alone the rest of the world. You dont even hear a peep about the 600,000 dead in Sudan from leftist leaders, influencers, streamers, politicians, for example.

>>2368099
Are you a communist?

>>2368300
>Leftists were never communists, but nowadays they aren't even leftist.
been saying this the whole time

>>2368099
Classless society were people have the power to drive history.

There will be matriarchy in communism. And most men will be cucks who will raise children of few chad men who will reproduce. To be a communist therefore is to be a cuck in most cases, unless you are chad

>>2368479
This means that private property and patriarchy is unnatural incel shit that leads to alienation. Communism is natural or something like that

>>2368479
>>2368488
Which means that in a future society with technology the only men will be chads while the rest are cis women and sissy transgenders who are sterilized

>>2367650
>total moid sterilization
Not total, chads wont be sterilized, the rest will be. The birthes will be natural because artificial wombs is le bad alienation

if all you do is post retarded shit in an albanian bunker enthusiast forums you are not communist

>>2368505
no they will receive artificial wombs and be bred by women with artifical phalluses and sperm projectors

>>2368598
>retarded shit
You have no argument. I accept yout concession

>>2368610
>not even denying being a terminally online loser
no point in arguing with someone whose existence is irrelevant

>>2368624
>muh relevant existence

>>2367220
>Abolish The Family
>Abolish Town and Country.
How?

>>2368719
By making a private property and division of labour not a thing

>>2368735
That doesn't answer anything anon

>Post basic ass positions that Marx, Engels and Lenin all held
<uyghas accuse me of being a bad faith lefcom/anarchist/trot etc.
Why do nuMLs even pretend to like Marx and Lenin if they fundamentally disagree with them?

File: 1751578551802.jpg (97.42 KB, 644x500, stalin drinking.jpg)

Hey man as long as there is beer and good vibes I'm down

>>2368082
MLoids are literally arguing up and down this thread that communism is impossible, why the fuck would you think anyone mocking you clowns see you as “commies” of all fucking things?
If you want to argue with redditors, why don’t you go to Reddit? Then again, this place pretty much is Reddit by now

>>2368006
>ok you didn't say that but you go on the same website as someone who might have said that once
ok

all of OP's suggestions are infantile and utopian. behold the power of my dialectics

Only anarcho-communists are real communists, but ancoms are also not real anarchists.

>>2368069
I don't even know the words you use you stupid liberal, too bad you spent that much effort changing something that'll be abolished it's just sunk cost fallacy for you, rest and cope now

>>2369043
Anything but Hitlerism is utopian
Read Foundations of Leninism, lib

>>2367666
>With the election of Zohran, I really do feel certain that revolution/civil war is imminent in the future, there’s no way on the face of the planet that plans for communist murder aren’t already being drawn up in the most powerful boardrooms in this country.
Jewish finance imperialists feel unsafe tho :(
>all these 2A fed hating orcs are probably going to get mobilized against us in some sort of absurd reverse cultural revolution
<"against us"
Your democratic socialist friends soyfaced at John Fetterman while he was running around with a shotgun threatening black people who made him feel unsafe.
https://readsettlers.org/

>>2368598
I think this is the point that is most relevant to a lot of posters here. You're not anything as long as you don't do anything. Considering how (a lot of) people act here, I don't see any reason to take them seriously in their conviction.
>>2368855
As reasonable an expectation of future society as any.
Me personally, I should curb my drinking so I'll go one step further, as it were, and say I'd be fine if there is rationing. Like no drinking on weekdays (or whatever your shifts look like). How do you expect to become the next Stakhanov if you turn up hungover all the time?
But for now, TGIF. Mañana forever. Tomorrow I'll stop drinking.

File: 1751614344117.png (881.74 KB, 1024x1024, ClipboardImage.png)

Abolish abolish abolish, when do you abolish the human nature? Checkmate communist

>>2368610
they're right. they're not saying that what you said was wrong in itself, but that many people on this site are just chronically online and not connected with the real life communist movement, and therefore are hardly communists

>>2369031
>MLoids are literally arguing up and down this thread that communism is impossible,
No they're not, unfortunately you are just a permanently retarded idealist incapable of actually understanding what communism actually is



>why the fuck would you think anyone mocking you clowns see you as “commies” of all fucking things?

Hey dummy, I'm saying that terms such as redfash or tankie are substitutes for words like commie. I'm calling you an anticommunist

>If you want to argue with redditors, why don’t you go to Reddit? Then again, this place pretty much is Reddit by now

Only thing reddit here is you

>>2369749
> No they're not, unfortunately you are just a permanently retarded idealist incapable of actually understanding what communism actually is
MLs use the term idealism very frequently
But they genuinely don’t know what it means
They think, for instance, claiming a country is socialist, because it cannot achieve socialism, but its leaders want to achieve socialism hypothetically, is not idealist nonsense
MLs are, if anything, a return to the utopians of the 19th Century
> Hey dummy, I'm saying that terms such as redfash or tankie are substitutes for words like commie. I'm calling you an anticommunist
I know, and such an accusation is meaningless from someone who amounts to a red liberal, whose politics are constructed around idealist substitutionism, and who can happily support the butchering of proletarians and communists in the “right circumstances” (i.e. they betrayed the Fatherland in some sense, most typically)

It’s beyond a farce for MLs, who openly celebrate fratricidal violence between socialists, in the name of “necessity” (capital accumulation) to accuse their critics of “anti-communism”. The secret is that, if MLs engaged with the nuance of their critics, they would cease to be MLs, and become communists. It is telling that most ML defensiveness relies deeply on apologism (“You don’t understand, obviously a true DOTP must be constructed around wage labor, capital accumulation, market price signals, and MUST have room for placing dissenting proles or even just insufficient workers in forced labor camps! Due to the necessity of the moment and no, obviously international revolution cannot solve this problem, because the proletariat cannot be expected to overcome the true political form, the national state! Anyway those are CIA lies, even when the leaders of these countries were extremely open about this dynamic!”), childish pejoratives (self-explanatory), or offense at an interlocutor’s (it means the person you are arguing with) lack of sentimental reverence for whatever regime or politician MLs feel personal sentimental reverence for.

It’s telling that fratricidal violence, sexual abuse, individual abuse, and splitting are all extremely common features of ML militant movements, states, parties, and those inspired by them such as Maoists, Trots, etc

>>2369764
sorry, i'll still defend stalin from bourgeois slander.

I think what I will do is I'll recycle old material.
I think we have been well over all that.
>>2367690
Note also the reversal going on

The real movement is actually the fictional movement of the future and what is really happening in reality is all just to be denounced and whatever. Else you are not a real communist (lol)
I'm starting to think these people haven't ever actually read Marx.

Remember as well, everyone wants to live in Shangri-La.
Everyone wants good things and abhors bad things. You ain't special for it.

>>2369764
>MLs use the term idealism very frequently
Lots of idealists around
>They think, for instance, claiming a country is socialist, because it cannot achieve socialism, but its leaders want to achieve socialism hypothetically, is not idealist nonsense
No they don't, nobody thinks this lol. Is it really that difficult to actually engage with actual arguments?

>I know

Clearly you didn't or you wouldn't have gotten your panties in a twist with that whole"why the fuck would you think anyone mocking you clowns see you as “commies"

>Moralism about le butchered proles

Lmao faggot, you gonna post a picture of a pitbull asking for more proles next? Maybe you'd feel more at home on r/ultraleft or wherever hole you crawled out from


>It’s beyond a farce for MLs, who openly celebrate fratricidal violence between socialists, in the name of “necessity” (capital accumulation) to accuse their critics of “anti-communism”. The secret is that, if MLs engaged with the nuance of their critics


>More moralism about "celebrating" le wrong thing


>B..but I'm not an idealist tho


Lmao, every time


>You don’t understand, obviously a true DOTP must be constructed around wage labor, capital accumulation, market price signals, and MUST have room for placing dissenting proles or even just insufficient workers in forced labor camps! Due to the necessity of the moment and no, obviously international revolution cannot solve this problem, because the proletariat cannot be expected to overcome the true political form, the national state! Anyway those are CIA lies, even when the leaders of these countries were extremely open about this dynamic!

Damn dude that's a biting critique, but uhmm quick question, how's your DotP doing? Has it been established in the last 100 years? No? Sooo it's just an idea, a state of affairs if you will, in your head? That you think needs establishing yeah? Interesting

>offense at an interlocutor’s (it means the person you are arguing with)

Wouldn't be an argument with an ultra without the unsubstantiated, self congratulatory arrogance lmao

>It’s telling that fratricidal violence, sexual abuse, individual abuse, and splitting are all extremely common features of ML militant movements, states, parties, and those inspired by them such as Maoists, Trots, etc

Well, movements that actually exist and actually do things in the real world run into problems yeah, it's a feature of not just being an idealistic conception in your head like anarchism or leftcomism or whatever bullshit you uphold (if you even stand for anything at all and are not just an anticommunist like my original post that struck u so much implied)

In conclusion: you are a permanently retarded idealist who couldn't recognize the real movement if it lined him up against the wall and shot him

File: 1751621178798.jpg (149.72 KB, 768x476, maoist clown shoes.jpg)

It isn't worth it to try again.
Unless you are really, really fortunate (ie rich), reality will come for you as well.
All we who already (are forced to) inhabit it have to do is simply wait. This is "proletarian consciousness".
Also lol at Maotists, trots being also the responsibility of "ML"
I am also the guy who stuffed you in the locker back in school.
Question is, whatcha gonna do about it?

>>2367530
Fair enough and I generally don't like that slogan for that exact reason. It's just important to understand what people actually mean when they say it.

>>2369800
It isn’t moralism to recognize the enemies of MLs are proletarians and communists

I judge people by who they slaughter, MLs slaughter proles, communists, and other MLs more than anyone else. To even fight a bourgeois power, they literally had to be invaded by them lmao. In fact, ML states have historically done everything in their power to avoid war with the openly imperialist states, while never in their history hesitating to massacre that class they profess to uphold, and that movement they claim to move towards. My answer for why is quite simple, because they were trying to consolidate a bourgeois nationalist regime, and required legitimacy in the eyes of the Western imperialist powers to do so. The explanation of MLs is that those millions of proles and hundreds of thousands of communists were jews CIA or some other type of ideological enemy. I tend to think a regime that butchers communists and enslaves proletarians to wage labor, and maintains that class to begin with, is simply a bourgeois regime. It seems the easiest explanation for its actions.

Can you critique my argument, or will your defense be that those proles and communists were simply k!k£$ CIA, and that true socialism, rather than an international proletarian revolution, is an alliance of national states that kill proletarians when convenient and build their entire economies around the extraction of surplus value?

Or will you out yourself as a liberal and claim economies necessarily extract surplus value to function?

>>2369800
In fact, I think what’s truly idealist, is, again, claiming you are socialist, because socialism is what you hope to achieve. “Measure me not by the millions of proles I have shot, nor by the countless millions more I have shackled to the wage chain working to enlarge the coffers and profits of the state. No. Judge me by my aesthetics, my rhetoric, the power I hope to wield, and the aspirations I profess to hold” so says the Marxist-Leninist.

Also lol at the idea of ML states representing any sort of DOTP

I suppose a gang rape can also be a DotP by ML standards

Hand over that lunch money nerdroid

>>2369832
>It isn’t moralism to recognize the enemies of MLs are proletarians and communists
It is and it's idealism and individualism too

>I judge people by who they slaughter

So you're a retarded moralist? Yeah I already told you, you don't have to keep repeating it lol

>Ahistorical ramble filled with unfounded assertions

Very nice, but how's your movement doing? Oh, you don't have one? You have no revolutions? You have no DotP? And you have no bitches? Shame, but you shouldn't take out your seething jealousy for actual accomplishment on those who actually move history, how about you start moving history yourself pal and then you wouldn't look so pathetic in your resentments

>Can you critique my argument,

What argument is that?
>MLs want to kill!! They just kill proles!! Thousands! Millions!! A 100 million killed by evil, powerhungry filthy commies uhhh I mean MLs who just want to kill proles and establish liberal capitalism (liberalism is when a country is governed by a communist party)
Hardly worth responding to

>>2369835
>More moralism about le slaughter
God it never ends with you lmao

>ML can't do no DotP


How's your DotP doing? Conviently you completely ignored my statements about the whole preconceived state of affairs thing and your own movement. Care to mention what line you uphold? How well has that line done in establishing a DotP? I'm gonna go out on a limb here and make the prediction that it has never ever even come close to leading a revolution, let alone establishing something like a DotP

>Weird gangrape reference out of nowhere

Keep your fetishes to yourself please

>>2369849
he has a point anon, if you're constantly physically waging war against proletarians, your enemies are proletarians in a functional sense.

a lot of what you're saying here isn't an argument against that. 'ur doing a moralism' isn't a very good argument against that. you'd do better justifying it through a higher-logic than getting outraged about it.

It is enough to say they are time-wasters who are less than useless

>>2369862
>he has a point anon, if you're constantly physically waging war against proletarians, your enemies are proletarians in a functional sense.
It's a false premise. No ML state has "waged war against proletarians". It's just moralistic outrage at ML states being real things and thus having to contend with the actual world where people die

>a lot of what you're saying here isn't an argument against that. 'ur doing a moralism' isn't a very good argument against that. you'd do better justifying it through a higher-logic than getting outraged about it.

I'm not outraged by it, it's just silly. I could talk about the real movement, the actual struggle for the seizure of state power by the proletariat, the subsequent establishment of the DotP, socialist construction and the contention with capitalist reaction and imperialism till I'm blue in the face. This Anon will never listen, because it's not about the real world, real history or real class struggle for them. It's just another vector for their anti communist sentiment.

Therefore, "you're a moralist" is perfectly sufficient

>>2369849
>>2369876
Name 1 (one) DoTP that MLs have established.

>>2369931
The USSR, the MPR, the GDR, the PRC, The DPRK, The PRA, the SRV, the SRB, the CSR, the PRH, the PRP, Cuba, Laos, Yugoslavia

Now, name anything at all, doesn't even have to be a DotP, your line (which you don't have, because you are nothing but an anticommunist) has established anywhere, ever. I'll wait

>>2369849
>How’s your DotP doing?
Well it isn’t slaughtering proletarians, making concessions with the Western imperialists it claims to hate, maintaining wage labor and commodity production, wasting labor power to produce world destroying weaponry that aren’t meant to be used, upholding nationalism, fighting fratricidal wars against other “DOTPs”, helping save world capitalism repeatedly, openly destroying itself to re-establish bourgeois societies without even the farcical pretense of being anything else, and having nothing to show for its entire existence other than a bunch of far right nationalist regimes where the farce used to exist and some teenaged honkies in the West desperately attaching themselves to it despite their utter lack of attachment

You people are such clowns

Ignoring the fact that you worship bourgeois regimes solely due to their aesthetics, the Cold War propaganda of your own country, and your personal powerlessness, I legit can’t think of anything more utterly, disgustingly pathetic than the general tendency of Western MLs to pretend like they personally are not losers and failures and somehow “better” than any other person that calls themselves a socialist because they, personally, feel emotionally attached to regimes they, personally, had nothing at all to do with

>>2369950
That seems a reasonable question, eh

And from a quick skim
^the non-answer a load of projection

>>2369950
Lenin wasn't an "ML" lmfao

>>2369876
> It's a false premise. No ML state has "waged war against proletarians". It's just moralistic outrage at ML states being real things and thus having to contend with the actual world where people die
<Appeal to anti-intellectualism
As I said, by ML standards a gang rape would also be a DotP
“People die” is a funny way of saying “mass executions and imprisonments of workers for every reason ranging from leaving work without permission to failing to meet a production quota”
I guess not enslaving workers to achieve vague and obscure goals is too “utopian” and “naive” for ML cockroaches worshipping states that collapsed despite all their “necessary violence” once the great “proletarian” leadership decided they could lead a more prosperous and profitable existence as capitalist overlords. Funny how not a single prole lifted a finger to save “socialism” either. Even the red army were too drunk to do that, right?
> I could talk about the real movement, the actual struggle for the seizure of state power by the proletariat, the subsequent establishment of the DotP, socialist construction and the contention with capitalist reaction and imperialism till I'm blue in the face
You could also read Marx and seriously consider if a clique of nationalists accumulating capital in a backwards semi-feudal society whose socialist credentials are “I hate the West and want to modernize” measures against an international proletarian revolution.

File: 1751635614779.png (618.79 KB, 693x563, 1719450670475.png)


>>2370050
Splitting hairs, if Marx had been a politician of note, he would stand in the same tradition or at the beginning.
The name doesn't matter. You might as well classify it as "reality" versus "unreality"
but I believe the "anti-ML" won't like that very much either.
So you see, one can't win here. Someone will always complain.

>>2370058
>if if if if
marx and engels werent even members of any parties lol?

>>2370055
You expect me to take a Parenti meme seriously?

>>2370058
>Actually my dad who died decades before my favorite countries came into existence would have supported them, honest, even if they perfectly mirrored both the barracks socialism and Lasallean nonsense he ruthlessly critiqued!
<Anyway no more time for ruthless criticism, now is the time to pretend my favorite regimes still exist because they make me feel good and make me feel like I’m definitely not a fucking coward that knows he’ll be gunned down by fascists and cops if I try a fucking thing
<<No I will never read that fucking Jew
Christ this place is boring

I said "politician of note" and specified that he wasn't
I do not see how much clearer one can be.
Anyway, politics, economics, philosophy, it's all the same to me
I dunno, try reading I guess.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Workingmen's_Association

wrong one
whatever

>>2370052
How’s CHAZ doing?

>>2370067
>talk about marx
<hows le CHAD bro heheheh XD
kill all americans

>forgot abolish glasses
Liberal

>At this congress, a split occurred between the Marxists and the Bakuninists, when the Marx-aligned delegates voted to expel Mikhail Bakunin and move the General Council from London to New York, precipitating the organization's decline.[1]

>The Bakunites held a separate congress a week later in Saint-Imier (Switzerland), where they formed the Anti-authoritarian International.

I dunno sounds like a regular (trot) party to me

>>2370073
Keep in mind the reason they split from the 1st International is because Bakunin couldn’t stop ranting about the Jews like a common Nazi

>>2370065
>Hehe have you considered if Marx was a bourgeois politician he would be an opportunist?
Hypotheticals are fucking stupid, aren’t they?

>communists: the expansion of the proletarian association inevitably entails the abolition of x and y
>radlibs larping as le leftcoms ancoms etc: x and y are legal terms and if we abolish those terms we abolish the social relation!
>radlibs larping as le leninists maoists etc: x and y are actually based and proletarian and le good
cool website

>>2370065
>Anyway, politics, economics, philosophy, it's all the same to me
yeah theyre all bullshit and not what marxism or communism are :)

>>2370065
>>2370066
Reminder that Althusser admitted he never read a single page of Marx.

>>2370086
marx also never read a single word from althusser so what tankie

Utter nonsense of course
The same canard is going around about Mao
Libcoms (or whatever the fuck) have a prominent inferiority complex (frankly well-deserved)

>>2370081
Nobody said those are legal terms lmao, OP is mocking MLoids for pretending that they are
MLs love to laugh at Anarchists for keeping the nature of a thing and changing the name, but they do exactly the same thing
The ML state compared to actual communism is even akin to Proudhon’s backwards facing nonsense, but whereas Proudhon idealized the peasant commune, MLs idealized the nation

>>2370088
Why do you spend your time doing this? Do you not have a job?
Why do the jannies like you enough to keep you around?

>>2370090
humanists are retarded but youre still a retarded philosophycuck too

File: 1751637584510.png (1.26 MB, 1800x1738, 1661406572660.png)


>>2370093
Because the nation has proven to be the main driver of revolutionary forces

>>2370128
pretty sure the main driver is class :)

>>2370128
>Permanent bourgeois revolution!

and so on

>>2370043
<How's your DotP doing?
>Well it isn’t

Yeah that's what I thought

>The rest of you're pathetic attempt at dodging my question. Crying, seething, repeating your retarded assertions about muh slaughtered proles

Lmao you're such a pretentious larping faggot, you should kill yourself honestly. At least then I wouldn't have to look at this garbage

>>2370050
And Marx wasn't a Marxist :)

>>2370052
>Bringing up your weird obsession with gang rape again
Bro I would really appreciate if you kept your strange fetishes to yourself thanks

>Muh hecking wholesome proles were SLAUGHTERED by degenerate le Machiavellian, filthy commies ehrm MLs

>People had jobs, with quotas!! That means they were ENSLAVED!!
>Heh and it fell anyways and even tho me and mine have never accomplished anything even close to the accomplishments of the Soviet Union, I'm still gonna gloat about the humanitarian catastrophe that was it's dissolution and call the Red Army, which saved Europe from nazi fascism, a bunch of drunks
>B… But I'm not an anticommunist, I swear!!

Lmao alright, time for bed lil bro. You can go and restate more Reaganite anticommunist rhetoric tomorrow, as I'm sure you will

>Muh international revolution

Which one is that again? Care to point out any successful international revolutioning your line has done? Y'know? That line that you definitely uphold? That's definitely contributed to the international world revolution? What was it called again?

In fact, care to name a single accomplishment that your line has achieved? Just one? Doesn't even have to be socialist related honestly. At this point I'd be impressed by a lemonade stand

File: 1751641597309.jpeg (63.1 KB, 828x722, 6kc5xiu7ct9d1.jpeg)

>>2370128
>Because the nation has proven to be the main driver of revolutionary forces
Yeah, like Yugoslavia!

>>2370081
>But I'm better than everyone itt, even tho I have contributed nothing of substance
Cool post

>>2370063
>even if they perfectly mirrored both the barracks socialism and Lasallean nonsense he ruthlessly critiqued!
okay. in what sense was the USSR barracks communism? here, let me quote the relevant parts to refresh your memory

<For a certain number of days assigned for the revolutionary upheaval and the disorders that are bound to follow, each person must join one or another of these artels according to his own choice… All those who remain isolated and unattached to workers' groups without sufficient reason will have no right of access either to the communal eating places or to the communal dormitories, or to any other buildings assigned to meet the various needs of the brother-workers or that contain the goods and materials, the victuals or tools reserved for all members of the established workers' society; in a word, he who without sufficient reason has not joined an artel, will be left without means of subsistence. All the roads, all the means of communication will be closed to him; he will have no other alternative but work or death.


so that was nechayev, and marx replies

>What a beautiful model of barrack-room communism! Here you have it all: communal eating, communal sleeping, assessors and offices regulating education, production, consumption, in a word, all social activity, and to crown all, our committee, anonymous and unknown to anyone, as the supreme director. This is indeed the purest anti-authoritarianism.


now did this happen in the ussr? of course not. it takes a second of reading to realize the ussr was not 'barracks communism'.
so point one fails. what about point two? how was it lassallean? (there are two S's in his name) what does it mean to be lassallean? define your terms. you have no clue what lassallean even means. do you mean to say that the ussr followed the gotha programme? is this what you are saying? or do you think in epic memes made by unemployed leftcoms how social democracy (whatever that means for you) = lassalle???? do you know that the RSDLP had its own programme?? do you??? what is your point of contention?? be specific.

notafloodnotaflood

>le abolish checklist
Anglo-box

File: 1751643837609.mp4 (4.59 MB, 640x360, batina batina.mp4)

>>2370263
P sure that poster means "batina batina batina, disciplina e batina"
Like I'm going through my memes and so on (someone has to think of the memes) but he's the opposite number of that guy.
Of course he's far less whiny and way more entertaining
>Goli Otok should be reopened
>God forbid I end up in heaven
>If I wasn't beaten I would stab you right now
I think it's just "Stalin was a bad dude" and then searching for something which sounds legit

>>2367220
Most of these just boil down to "hunt down every bourgeois and landowner and bash their skull in until their brains liquify"

>>2370081
You are a retard who’s brain is rotted. Learn how to fucking form coherent sentences.

>>2370296
You should abolish your smell with a shower, hazoid

>>2370311
No, it does not

>>2370314
"Abolish" (Hegel's Aufhebung) used to mean something, you know?! Regardless how you, a spectacle- /isg/- (etc.) addict label me, I would firmly reiterate: "Aufhebung" is not "abolish.

In other words:, Learn2Marx, learn2Hegel, fag!

>>2370320
Aufhebung just means to end something


File: 1751644655729.mp4 (7.45 MB, 1280x720, 1710186906020.mp4)

What the fuck did you just fucking say about Aufhebung, I'll have you know I am trained in 23 different kinds of dialectics.
I'll wipe you out you anti-marxist.

>>2370322
>>2370324
Lmao, literal anglo booklet status: confirmed

>>2370331
Ad hominem

>>2370331
I speak a Germanic language broski, I know what Aufhebung means. If you wanna say Hegel meant something different and came up with a super special meaning that we should now all follow, that's fine, but colloquially it just means to end or dissolve something

The central ideollgemes of anglo-saxon thinking is twofold:

1) individualism;
2) so called "pragmaticism."

The entire "school" is therefore deeply anti-social and anti-intellectual, mind you. If you dare point out the fact that Marx's Hegelian "heritage" (which he didn't "work out" himself) is riddled with contradictions and theoretically unsolved "problems," you get anglo-boxed into a checklist.

Mind you, dear reader, I've read 20 times more Marx and Engels than the idiot Brit/Burger/Zealander/etc. that is about to reply to me!

>>2367220
The material conditions necessary to abolish these things do not exist, and will never exist again.

>>2370343
True intellectualism is understanding that by abolition of the relations of Capital, Marx actually meant their eternal maintenance until economic determinism automatically turns capitalism into communism (somehow!), after all, Marx was nothing if not a teleologist!

Adolf Hitler WAS the real movement, read theory lib!

>>2367220
I disagree with none but I know many will squirm about about idpol issues or abolishing the state.

>>2370361
>and will never exist again.
What a foolishness it is to assume that capitalism in all its primitivism is the end of history.

>>2370408
It might be too late Anon, it might be too late for us…

>>2367220
True but this alone doesn't make you a communist either. Primitivists also want to abolish all these things.

>>2370364
>>>>Mind you, dear reader, I've read 20 times more Marx and Engels than the idiot Brit/Burger/Zealander/etc. that is about to reply to me!
Thx, mr 5eyes

>>2370364
>literal po-mo "critique" of orthodox Marxism
My fukken sides, m8

>>2370408
See: >>2370470

(U r posting in a po-mo thread! No matter what u say u r problematic!)

>>2370364
Marx was literally an economic determinist. Debate me, uyghur!

>>2369950
Nome of those achieved a DOTP as defined by both Lenin and Marx

>>2370481
literally read more, he was a 'dialectical materialist' which accounts for the ways in which the mental/social/cultural 'superstructure' does influence the material 'base' in a way that vulgar materialism does not. tangentially, in lenin's empirio-criticism, he makes the point that the only defining attribute of 'material' or 'matter' is that it exists outside of your own personal mind.

>>2370240
Don't like Trots or Trotskyism but I'm sure Trotsky wouldn't have CUCKed out and abandoned internationalism like Stalin, who betrayed the Iranian, Italian and Greek communists.

>>2370242
>ZERO arguments, just accusing people of being CIA or armchairs who do nothing while simultaneously doing nothing themselves
Typical ML retreat after being cornered.

>>2370470
I would consider myself an Orthodox Marxist critiquing aggressive Kautskyite revisionists that genuinely think their personal sentimentality for 20th Century regimes amounts to a true reckoning with Marx’s outlook and beliefs tbh
I just find the utter cowardice of MLs to be, idk, disgusting? Pathetic? Beneath me?

Every last word typed by an ML is absolutely dripping with their desperate need for external validation, it’s genuinely disgusting to me. It pours out in waves when MLs shamelessly admit that, rather than any serious engagement with Marx as a theorist, instead they blindly, slavishly, express their reverence for self-described Marxists based purely on the power they managed to accrue rather than whether any of their actions matched the theorizations of the actual originators of scientific socialism; rather than admit they shamelessly vulgarize and falsify Marx, they instead engage in quite proud revisionism, and then call actual Marxists liberals. It’s quite disgusting to witness. And that disgust is compounded by their pathetic denial of the world historical failure and defeat of Marxism-Leninism.

If the Soviet Union didn’t exist, I swear to God most MLs would promote scum like Karl Kautsky or Eduard Bernstein as the greatest socialists in the history of the movement following the death of Marx. There isn’t really a limit to the opportunism of MLs, considering most are now staunch dengists as well; which is what you would expect, from a worm that kneels to power and force.

>if u disagree with any of these abstract points,.you are not a TRUE (tm) SMURF
>TRUE SMURFISHNESS requires you to become Papa Smurf
>Unless you.become pappa smurf, you shall be castigated!

>>2370613
Literalmente dis. Nothing to add.

itt: Anglo anarchists think aufheben means abolish

>>2370617
ITS: Hitlerites whose fundamental understanding of Marx amounts to genocide all proletarians

>>2370619
Hitler was actually much closer to the anarchist ideal of abolishing aspects of reality that trigger them

>>2370623
I’d argue Hitler and contemporary MLs are both as close to anarchists as they are to each other, and all three present an unreachable gap to Marx himself

The funniest way to troll MLs is simply to quote Hitler or ᴉuᴉlossnW but convince them it’s something Xi Jinping said, since these retarded cunts don’t read, being teenagers and all

>>2370598
Dude, you have literally nothing. Every single one of your "arguments" are baseless, moralist, idealist assertions. The fact that you can't comprehend that makes you scarily retarded

And I wasn't counter arguing you fucking baboon brained troglodyte, he was the one who dodged MY question, to go on a rant about muh slaughter and muh dead proles

Jesus christ, mashallah the arrogance of these morons

https://libcom.org/article/address-anarchists-antonio-gramsci-1920
There, even libcom has it, not just marxists or any other obscure sites
No excuses

>>2370634
If anarchists could read they wouldn’t be anarchists

>>2370629
>MLoid reveals his sympathies for Islam
Like clockwork

File: 1751655768857.png (1.16 MB, 1920x1080, never opened.png)

>>2370636
Sure, I guess I believe in second, third etc. chances.
Or I must or I'd not even try, even a little.

File: 1751655922276.png (407.32 KB, 435x492, 1608457294434.png)

Its threads like me that remind me that ideology is fake and gay, or as those still stuck in the past refer to it as; "a spook".

The reality is that to be socialist the real pretext is exclusively the empowerment of the worker over capital. Everything else are optional switches required to mesh with the majority of the workers' psychological disposition, affected by the social-material culture beforehand. The best part? I'll end up having people whom I intended to have state their final case on why they shouldn't be shot and left in a ditch in the bush; and their response will literally be "morality is just… a concept… mann… it's not like… really real." Like, how fucking dumb do you have to be to try to tell someone the reason to kill them doesn't exist without any further elaboration? Try harder please.

>>2370636
I used to be an MLoid but then I actually read Marx and Lenin.

>>2370650
>Involuntary racist spasm at the mention of an Arabic word
Leftcoms try not to be ziorats challenge: impossible

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>>2370657
Tbf everything this guy writes is some sort of fit. And it's been going daily for some time. Scary is right. Good thing I ain't anywhere near the US.
It is about to get worse (and that's good actually).

>>2367220
Define family.
Define religion.
Define work.
Define commodity.
Define state.
Define gender.

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>>2370657
>Le Zionism! How dare you mock my sentimental attachment to the one true religion!?!?!?
Meanwhile Lenin:

>>2370666
I'm against religion too but imma keep it real withchu: I think these propaganda posters are racist as hell caricatures ngl.
Pic related is better at taking a shot at organized religion without engaging in anti-Semitic and anti-arab tropes.

>>2370666
>when I spout racist islamophobia (which is like antisemitism was in Lenin's day) I'm being like le based thought leader, just look at these racist caricatures from the 30s!!
The clownshow never ends with you

Why didn't you show the same disgust and irreverence to my mention of jesus? Is it because you are a ziorat racist?

I think you've shown us all the answer to that question

>>2370673
'twas a different time but yeaaa
There is btw no record of Gagarin actually saying "I see no god up here", which I think that's referencing, I don't speaka da language

I hate islamism

yeah thats the maximal project and i agree its suspicious when self-avowed communists recoil from the idea of these things.

the maximal project is not however something that can be immediately instantiated under any concievable historical circumstances, and it is not the belief that these things can or should be attempted to be immediately enforced by a dictatorship of the proletariat or any transitional state

the fact that the realization of these principles is a historical project is legitimately a quandary in terms of how it should be most effectively pursued.

>>2370673
I don’t disagree with you, but the point is Modern MLs are 100% pussies on the question of religion
>No, you see, Islam is a based, anti-Western pro-feudal religion!
Fucking hilarious that MLoids shill for the exact tool the United States weaponized to destroy Marxism-Leninism in the MENA region

>>2370682
Honestly? Because a honkie westerner saying “Jesus Christ” I can write off as a thoughtless expression due to the culture it was raised in within the West, vs having to go out of your way to reference Islam and signal your actual sympathies with religious idealism after all

I can forgive thoughtlessness, but slipping into a language you can’t actually speak and a way of talking that really only came about since 2023? Come on now son

i frankly don't care what you think about religion, i think we can logically deduce its a very personal matter and should remain such. what i see around me is all the evidence that i need that God exists, and He cares deeply for us all.

>>2370721
>t. has never interacted with an Arabic person

>>2370716
>you have to hate everything and everyone that professes even the slightest acceptance of Muslims, you can't even use arab words


yeah thanks bro, you're really contributing in a positive way to the class struggle

>>2370941
I do reject religion, indeed 😉
>>2370929
You aren’t an Arab, neither was that poster


>>2370946
>I do reject religion, indeed
No you are an islamophobe who spazzes out at the first mention of an Arabic word lmao

>You aren’t an Arab, neither was that poste

did my claim "t. doesn't know an arabic person" imply I was of arab descent?

<Abolish The Family.
Nah
<Abolish Religion.
Nah
<Abolish Wage Labour.
Nah
<Abolish Money.
Nah
<Abolish Work.
Nah
<Abolish Commodity Production.
Nah
<Abolish the State.
Nah
<Abolish Class.
Nah
<Abolish Private Property.
Nah
<Abolish the Nation.
Nah
<Abolish Patriarchy.
Nah
<Abolish Gender.
Nah
<Abolish Town and Country.
Nah

All of these things can, and will, work under communism, your just stupid lol.

As someone who is agender I agree

>>2371088
Yeah I'm agender. A gender predator.

>>2370617
I went home, thought to myself, and abolished my wife and two children. They petunantly resisted, typical of their bourgeois ways: "Daddy, what do you mean by abolishing me?"

I smirked at that petulant child and ABOLISHED her.

Then, I went to my workplace on a monday, thought to myself, and abolished my boss. My petulant boss asked me: "But John, what do you mean by qbolishing me?"

I did not respond to his petulant ways, instead I abolished him.

On tuesday I went to buy groceries. I saw those petulant price-tags, and abolished them The petulant lady at the counter was like "Sir, you can't just walk out the store without paying for your groceries, Sir!!!"

I merely smirked, took a good look at her, and said
>Lady, you are ABOLISHED

She was visibly stunned and abolished, never to bring this up again.

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>>2371727
It does have the energy of "just say no" (just do it, don't let your dreams be dreams)
People wanna make you work? Abolish
People wanna charge you? Abolish
Anything bad or unhappy in the world? Abolish

It's not even that I disagree with OP in the main. It is rather that 90 odd percent of people that talk about what OP is talking about instead of anything real, concrete are maximally useless.

It's like they have the "zeal of the convert", where newly converted are more "radical" than old heads. At the same time they don't actually take a side or a stand on anything real etc that really happens in the real world where we real people must live. It's definitely a playing both sides or trying to have your cake and eat it situation.

>>2371727
No wonder they didn't understand you. It's actually Aufheben.

>>2371820
Hegel's "beautiful soul," etc.

Honestly thanking you for your post, btw. You made me feel that I'm not alone in this universe.

>>2371826 (abolished)

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Radicalised in the compromiser camp
I am so firmly middle of the road, I wear XXM
🎵
>>2371833
Yes, the beautiful soul.
I do not think we are alone. I think people, most of them, are necessarily pragmatic. They are not usually taken in by promises of the land where milk and honey flow.
I do think even those people that are thinking in these terms of unreality will in the main, and for the most part, collide with reality sooner or later.

>>2371839
Too bad I aufgehoben you first. My word magic is purer and thus much more dialectically powerful than your bastardization.

File: 1751771858525.png (115.41 KB, 1000x500, ClipboardImage.png)

Marx PBUH gave us the word and through the word we have the power to aufheben by the dialectical power imbued in it.

File: 1751772258687.png (2.53 MB, 1920x1080, ClipboardImage.png)

In the end Heaven and Earth and even life itself will be aufgehoben and only the word and the immortal science of Marxism will remain.

>>2367220
>Abolish The Family.
Agree
>Abolish Religion.
Apathetic but yeah sure
>Abolish Wage Labour.
ye
>Abolish Money.
ye
>Abolish Work.
No, work will always be necessary
>Abolish Commodity Production.
ye
>Abolish the State.
no
>Abolish Class.
yes
>Abolish Private Property.
yes
>Abolish the Nation.
no
>Abolish Patriarchy.
yes
>Abolish Gender.
no but its an interesting idea
>Abolish Town and Country.
no

>>2373263
>>Abolish the State.
>no
you cannot have the state and money, you implicitly agree with that even if you don't know it, almost all of them (maybe except the "abolish gender" part) is a basic communist position, you are not a communist

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>>2373171
Funny meme right there.
Made me look up (german) grammar for the first time in like over a decade.
And here's what g*ogle says, quite unsurprisingly about the word.
This is all to say, if this discussion happens again, I'll just be over here insisting on the literal, trivial interpretation/translation.
Aufheben just means "to pick up" from the floor or such.
Or literally up (auf) heben (lift)
Uplift
Do you even lift, brah?

>>2373453
Yeah, what I was referencing for those that don't know is that scriputalist discussion of abolish always circles around to aufheben and how it has many meanings, and you can't understand the magic of his words unless you speak 1800s Deutsch.

https://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/a/u.htm

Aufheben

Aufheben is a German word, crucial to Hegelian and Marxist thinking, for which there is no English equivalent.

Aufheben can be translated as to sublate, to abolish, to transcend or to supersede or even “to pick up,” “to raise,” “to keep,” “to preserve,” “to end” or “to annul.” Literally and originally, aufheben meant “to pocket,” as when someone pockets your payment but continues to work for you.

Something is aufheben when it is superseded by something else. “Supersede” and “transcend” do not carry the same connotation however as “abolish,” in which the old is actually terminated and got rid of by that which supersedes it; “sublation” carries the connotation of “including” the old in the new, but is altogether too platonic and misses the sense of “abolish.”

Engels authorised the use of “abolish” in the English translation of The Communist Manifesto where it talks of the aufheben of the family; this however gives leeway to those who would simply ban the institutions of religion, or dismiss the very existence of spiritual needs. The translators of the Introduction to the Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right variously used “abolish” and “supersede” according to context.

Generally speaking, when reading English translations of Marx and Engels, the words “abolish,” “supersede” and “sublate” are most likely translations of aufheben, and should be understood in that sense, as something being made obsolete by means of resolving the problems that gave rise to it in some new way.

>>2367620
Taking estrogen for big titties is really overcomplicated by fucking everyone.

>>2367656
You assume everyone will be cis after communism. It's like the old saw that homosexuality was a recent invention. So was heterosexuality, literally heterosexuality was a paraphilia before it was a social norm. Transgender is a privative meaning non-normative gender expressions according to current day ideology. In that sense, everyone will be gay and trans in communism.

>>2367220
Abolishing the family begins with the expropriation of the private residential units of the petty-bourgeois. If you are not a renter, hang yourself and die. Sadly, all of you idiots are Proudhonist reformists who rant on and on about landlords until we get to the real problem of home owners.

Lmao this board is cooked, can't believe that 10 years and 3 site migrations managed to make it this bad. Ratio of hitler particles to communists is truly dire.

>>2373458
Seem like it'd be easier to just use aufheben directly as a loan word.

>>2376811
Past a certain point it can only be rationally understood that the board being so bad is a deliberate choice from the janitors.

>>2367220
Add Abolish the Human Race and you got yourself a good list

>>2367997
Hilarious to call me a "philistine" and completely ignore that the abolition of a thing can only happen in conditions where that abolition is materially possible. It is neither possible nor desirable to simply "abolish" work, nations (especially in the context of national liberation struggle), and religion. No socialist experiment thus far has even come close to accomplishing these things, and in an era where the world communist movement is regrouping it's plain silly to premise your movement on positions you can't even hope to follow up on.

>>2377297
>>2376811
Yeah seriously. Soooo bad.. Like OMG seriously?

>>2377297
>le great mods theory of board history

>great jannie theory of ultroid puke all over the floor

Wow this is literally 1984

>>2376811
>communists
As if you can tell

>>2377356
I can see that abolishing nations and work is not fesable at this point of material development, but religion? There are high levels of atheism both in central-northen europe and eastern asia, and I don't see what function religion would serve in a modern socialist nation such that it cannot be feasably abolished.

>>2377565
People will turn to god and supernatural to cope. They will talk about the supernatural with each other

>>2377568
But a shrinking amount are doing so both in central-northen europe and eastern asia, both places with a high level of development

>>2377565
Not just atheism, but both flat straightedge purely secular atheists and atheistic spiritual practices like some forms of paganism. Religion is losing on both fronts, the spaghetti monster no longer has a monopoly on candles.

Agreed with all, except I am not sure how Abolish Town and Country would work or what exactly it means.

>>2367599
>Nations exist whether you like it or not and. Don't conflate the nation state with the existence of nations.
Kinda true actually. Although not fully developed, there were traces of Nationalism before Capitalism. It isn't a modern invention, at least not fully.

>>2367599
>>2367610
>>2367637
the specific meaning/translation of one word is meaningless when you situate it back into the wider theory of Marxism, where the ABOLITION of all these concepts naturally and directly follows as we approach full communism. all this aufhebung cope is just for defending the DotP as socialism to begin with anyway - extending it to even communism exposes you as an edgy socdem just as OP said

>>2378953
"Abolish" makes it sound artificial though, like as though it's abolition is enforced rather than it simply no longer having the material conditions to continue manifesting.

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>>2367220
>hegelian discourse
lol leftoid moment

marx himself constantly made fun of hegels many stupidities

>>2379229
>old social relations becoming obsolete wont lead to new ones and communism will be Literally nothing
retard

>>2379167
rhetoric is a separate discussion from theory - you know what we mean when we say abolish, and for the purposes of establishing what we want out of society that's enough. if you do have better ideas on how to convey this to non-leftists though, i am legitimately interested

>>2379205
What does the OP have to do with “Hegelian discourse”? The abolitions in the OP are just the natural progression and endpoint of abolishing state and private property

>>2367976
This post did some neuron things in my brain, thank you

>>2378185
I think it means abolishing/sublating the resource discrepancy between urban and rural areas, but I’m not sure

>>2377565
>atheism
Atheism isn't inherently the negation of religious thinking. I don't mean that in the dumb "atheism is a religion too!" sense, I mean that in the sense that we shouldn't confuse religious form with religious content. Richard Dawkins is a prominent example of what I mean. Avid proponent of atheism and secularism, and career biologist who regularly applies scientific methodology. However, we can see in how he navigates the world that he is still steeped in religious thinking, to the point where he has aligned himself with religious fundamentalist and fascist forces on multiple causes. Because at the end of the day ending religious thinking isn't a matter of ending this or that religion, because the religions aren't what reproduce that thinking. What reproduces that thinking is capitalist society itself, and we see its expression outside of religious institutions, for example as the "employee mentality" where workers are trained to have an almost Pavlovian need to look to superiors for directions.
>I don't see what function religion would serve in a modern socialist nation such that it cannot be feasably abolished.
Conveniently, this line from your post is a good example of what I mean. While you are arguing against religion in the form of this statement, the content of this statement is a teleological argument, a line of thinking grounded in religious thinking. Does everything in a given society exist with a preordained "function" or purpose? No, no society functions like this. They are not machines where each moving part has a specific purpose to the whole. There are plenty of social practices in various societies which persist despite having no real "function", and trying to assign such a function post-hoc only leads to mechanical, one-sided, religious thinking. Does getting a tattoo (for example) have a direct "function" in capitalism, or is it moreso social expression and cultural practice that can both be used by capitalism and act in spite of it? On the flip side, expecting a future society to work this way is completely utopian.

Whether religion would have a function in a socialist state isn't really relevant to the question of whether religion would exist in such a state. The real question is what it will actually take for religious and spiritual practice to wither away after religious thinking is ended, or if they will wither away at all? There's a solid chance that, like in all previous systems of production, what religion and spirituality are and mean will be revised once again by the new ruling classes (the proletariat) into new forms with new thinking, and that these new things too will be revised again as the world moves to communism.

>>2387016
>Atheism isn't inherently the negation of religious thinking.
True, most pagans I know are atheistic, yet they still hold some of their practices, morals, tastes of their peers, etc… above and against themselves religiously.
Atheism is step one, agnosticism is step two, ceasing to entertain the theism debate entirely is step three, and there's a long trail worth of steps after that on the road freedom from religious thinking.

>>2367976
>Elevate Work
>From survival-based toil to creative, self-expressive action within a cybernetic ecology of production and leisure.

Whenever the left talks in this air fairy way about future work I can't help but roll my eyes. Maybe that works in an artisanal cupcake shop but not shit that actually matters to modern society like sanitation, roofing, pipe fitting, working with dangerous chemicals, meat processing, etc. Go on, tell me how mining or installing electric lines is gonna help your self-expression.

Abolish the jews

It's like each of those is a whole ass discussion
I don't think saying if you are not 100% you can't hang with us is necessarily the most productive thing you can do
but hey. That about sums up OP
More on religiosity at a later time

>>2387060
there is confusion here
atheism concerns "theos"
paganism generally concerns "ethos"
thats why when atheists get a bit spicy they call themselves pagan, but it is really an ethical attitude.
>the road freedom from religious thinking
man is a religious animal. trying to escape one deity just puts you in the jaws of another. thats why agnosticism is the most rational and open position.

>communism is about abolishing things I don't like

Retarded

I guess the USSR was never aspiring towards communism then. Neither was China, or North Korea or Cuba or Vietnam.

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>>2387016
I think I got it but I cannot quite explain it satisfactorily.
I mean, I don't know about negation and negation of the negation and all that.
The superseding of religious belief is not rejection but something else. "A secret third option".
Superstition is superseded by the end of superstition. Religion in concrete terms will cease to exist in the institutional sense. We do not need cloisters, monasteries or preachers as we do not labor under the delusion that some guy has a special relationship to the supernatural, the holy.
However, here's where it gets a bit tricky.
>Unconscious metaphysics tends to be bad metaphysics.
The mundane is the spiritual and the Spiritual is mundane. As a layman I feel like this makes the most sense. It's a "how could it be any other way?" "Well, naturally" type of deal. I am far from a theologian but smart or religiously educated is where I heard this from. One being Gabor Maté who I heard mention this in a video I do not quite remember the name or topic of. Or Buddhadasa, who became controversial for what I believe is a rather similar approach. In the end it turns out to be a distinction without a difference.
Or I suppose with Spinoza: God is the world and the world is God.
Trying to bring it back to the "abolish" term or "supersede" or transcend (go beyond), this is one example of two opposites "cancelling each other" (not quite).

>>2387294
Atheism is the rational position. Hard agnositicism "I literally can't know if God exists or not" is not rational, because such people dont give proof why the existence of God is unknowable

>>2387412
Communism is about destroying Capital, that includes killing everything you love, from the Nation, to the Family, to God, to the Bourgeoisie, sorry faggot

>>2388078
this, just so much this

ive had it explained a million times and i still dont fuckin know what abolishing gender entirely means

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>>2387751
>Hard agnositicism "I literally can't know if God exists or not"
Ah fuck, someone made the line 2D. Now we gotta chart this shit in a grid of [believes deities exist, doesn't care / hold a belief on the matter, believes deities don't exist] x [believes that's knowable, doesn't care / hold a belief on the matter, believes that's unknowable]. That 9 positions, 6 more than before. Science damn it.

The only rational position on that grid is, the center: agnostic ag-idk-ism.

>>2388078
Sound like a list of things you don't like, not my fault you have a shitty family, I like mine, keep seethe retarded.

>>2388153
you sound insecure, so much so that you cant tell sarcasm, or your just retarded

>>2388156
Still not my fault you have a shitty family and have trouble with your gender, i like mine family and gender just fine, keep coping and seething schizo

>>2388156
>cant tell sarcasm
No tone indicator, no right to begrudge misinterpretaton.

>>2388164
again, projecting
>>2388175
tone indicators belong in the trash

>>2388183
>muh projection

I not the one here saying that people should be genderless and familyess because of their insecurities and shitty life experiences

>>2387016
As for your first paragraph, I think you are just confusing religion for a certain class position. Richard Dawkins is not religious whatsoever, and idk how you could think he was. But he supports the ruling class when they have a certain expression. He agrees with Christians sometimes not because he is religious but because they are both upholding the ruling class. I mean you know this. I think you just (rightfully) don't like him and the kind of atheism he represents, so you think of him as religious because of that.

Dawkins is an idealist, same as the Christians. But idealism is not religion. You have to be idealist (on some level, even if in practice you view most of the world through materialism) to be religious or spiritual, but you don't have to be religious to be an idealist.

Religion was a specific social-economic thing that slowly became ingrained in the social consciousness until it feels almost overwhelming and unescapeable today. But it obviously did not exist forever, and neither did spirituality. Animals are not spiritual.

I've said this to you before, but religion, spirituality and idealism are just certain stages in human thought, reflecting the social-economic reality of the day. There is a reason to get rid of them. Spirituality is idealist, so it will have to go along with idealism as a whole. It only seems eternal because lots of people are spiritual today, even though it is really just a social viroid. Without a base of misery and craving for it to exist, spirituality can easily be removed. Unless you think it is part of human nature or consciousness?

you are not a communist just because you larp on the internet and believe a bunch of """based""" things btw

>>2388114
it's just a crypto transphobic dogwhistle

>>2388307
Abolishing gender just means to stop assigning people gender at birth. It's only a knock on effect that if no one's cis, no one's trans either, not the foremost goal.

>>2388305
So what decides whether someone is a communist or not?

>>2388323
If you're a socialist that would want to move forward to communism from socialism after socialism is achived.

Sublate*

>>2388164
>>2388153
I don’t feel the emotionally attached to historically specific categories of domination enough to embrace anti-communism, unlike you

>>2388319
The two different physical sexes have differing medical needs you fucking idiot

>>2388191
>can easily be removed.
And who will be doing this removing? Maybe Mr Bronstein sitting in the Café Central?
I won't even get into what you believe is natural or "forever existing". You have to be "idealist" or metaphysically inclined to look at the issue (or any issue) like that in the first place.

the family has to a large extent already been abolished. it has not been abolished idealistically, but materially: birthrates plunge and you stick your parents in a retirement home. you are no longer economically interdependent. first the extended family gave way to the nuclear family, and now the nuclear family implodes.

everyone who reacts badly to this is horrified at the idea you might abolish the family, but they're perfectly comfortable with the fact that the family has already mostly been abolished, they would recoil in horror if you told them that they were now legally obliged to observe filial piety and do as their daddy tells them.

>>2388743
I don't believe anything is natural or forever existing.

File: 1752580582626.png (53.65 KB, 847x182, levelers.png)

>>2388767
Well, that's good

>>2388744
this. people forgot that there generations ago people used to live in multigenerational housing, then two generations ago we got the nuclear family, and now we're getting rid of that, too.

>>2388767
read heraclitus or lao tzu
λόγος is the eternal order in chaos, like 道

>>2388821
>>2388744
Wez all gonna fraternize in le rental communal housigs as le working class?

>>2388528
Sex =/= gender

>>2388319
literal trans erasure

>>2367418
Go back to hexbear then

>>2388319
Healthcare pls

>>2388128
There are unknown knowables, known knowables…

>>2388839
well, probably. Read Cockshott in Towards a New Socialism, the chapter on the Commune

File: 1752597653941.mp4 (588.78 KB, 480x328, 1659499025017.mp4)

>>2388854
I mean, me, I am an old man. So I may be susceptible to the occasional crude joke.
We love our trans lads and ladies around the real communist table tho.
It's a different timeline to the point it is a disparate concept in reality tho. Saying if no one's cis "normal", there is no more trans as a concept is quite distinct from saying "trans people don't exist right now", which you know, no one with any clue or connection to reality holds this view.

Abolishing the concept of gender itself is as much an aggression as communism is "prole erasure". I think it shows people can talk about very different things while appearing to be on the same page at least to some extent.

<Abolish The Family.
<Abolish Work.
<Abolish the Nation.
<Abolish Gender.
Good thing I'm an Anarchist so I don't have to believe edgy shit like this

>>2388839
Private homeownership is petty-bourgeois. Personal renting is not. No need to do some commune bullshit when the commie block and the tenement hall already exist. Sadly, the reactionaries are fighting like hell to preserve urban sprawl.

>>2389437
What kind of anarchist are you if you believe in preserving the fucking NATION?

>>2389513
Federalism, Socialism, Anti-Theologism by Mikhail Bakunin
<Recognition of the absolute right of each nation, great or small, of each people, weak or strong, of each province, of each commune, to complete autonomy, provided its internal constitution is not a threat or a danger to the autonomy and liberty of neighboring countries.
<The League will recognize nationality as a natural fact which has an incontestable right to a free existence and development
<revolution, i.e., the emancipation of nations and men.

File: 1752608481249.png (274.32 KB, 333x500, ClipboardImage.png)

Abolish the Jew.

>abolish mommy because she doesn't let me smoke weed everyday in his basement!!!!!

Damn, wow, what a radical communist position!

>>2388825
Ancient philosophers should not inform your ideology.
>>2388839
I think the perfect living setup can be inspired by Tulou and big blocks of flats. Every individual gets their own bedroom, large enough for a single bed, desk and booskhelf (or whatever the building allows, if this is far in the future they can be as big as anyone wants) because a private, personal space is important for mental health and wellbeing. Sharing a bedroom sucks and we don't need to do that anymore, concrete is cheap after all. 5-10 rooms will make up a unit or apartment, who will share a kitchen, dining room and toilets. Generally you can hang out with everyone here to watch TV, cook meals for each other (or on your own if you don't want to), socialize on a day to day basis etc.. Then there will be floors or sections, or just the whole building if it is a smaller one. Each floor will allow everyone in it, maybe a hundred people, to go between units without being stopped so they can socialize with everyone. They will share recreation area and will do cultural festivals together in a central area. All the units will lead out into the central space. This space can also have lots of like community arts and crafts, pop up factories etc.. And then there is the whole building.

>>2389796
This would be the perfect living enviroment for me. Yes I really enjoyed university halls of residence.

>>2373266
>you cannot have the state and money
did you mean the state without money?

>>2373266
I mean really the state is an artifact of trade, money is just arbitrage par excellence. The state arises from trade because the trade in goods and services leads to the trade in workers and any system of slavery needs violent enforcement which is found under capitalism in the unrelenting violence of the state against the reserve pool of labor. The function of the state is not to oppress the workers, the function of the state is to oppress the reserve pool of labor. The capitalist pays the managerial strata to buy and sell labor, the capitalists and the managerial strata wash their hands of the violence themselves. The state and money are only a means to buy and sell workers, it is the buying and selling of workers which is the problem.

It follows to abolish money that the slaves must take up the slave trade themselves. LinkedIn, HR, all these services for selling the body must be seized by the working class and democratized. Only then can we abolish the wage and the state.

>>2389574
Commie blocks where workers have personal freedom is a communist position.

>>2389549
the fact that the nation is mentioned here does not mean you have to reify the nation as a concept.
the entitlement of every province to complete autonomy already implies within itself the abolition of nations, as such. granted complete autonomy there are two possibilities: regions will converge in such a way as to blur national boundaries, or regions will diverge in such a way as to blur national boundaries. even today, i wouldn't consider it contentious to say that (say) the scots at the scottish border and the english at the english border have many more things in common with one another than with their supposed co-nationals in the far north and far south respectively.

or, indeed, within scotland and england you could point to orkney+shetland or cornwall: they are not so nationally distinct as to have major independence movements, but they have high regional conciousness and a distinct ethnic/cultural background. to cut them off from scotland and england as different nations would be inaccurate, but it would equally be inaccurate to imagine them as just scottish or english. they're one of those awkward cases that shows the nation is really a weird little abstraction that doesn't necessarily stand up to close scrutiny - a nation is what a nation is, but at a certain point where every 50 square km is its own "nation", the nation has functionally been abolished.

In Communism, judaism is abolished because judaism = zionism.

Jews will never be free until Judaism is abolished, as Karl Marx demonstrates. Judaism must be abolished because judaism = zionism = capitalism. Humanity will never be free until judaism is abolished.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/jewish-question/
Let us consider the actual, worldly Jew – not the Sabbath Jew, as Bauer does, but the everyday Jew. Let us not look for the secret of the Jew in his religion, but let us look for the secret of his religion in the real Jew. What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money. Money is the jealous god of Israel, in face of which no other god may exist. Money degrades all the gods of man – and turns them into commodities. Money is the universal self-established value of all things. It has, therefore, robbed the whole world – both the world of men and nature – of its specific value. Money is the estranged essence of man’s work and man’s existence, and this alien essence dominates him, and he worships it. The god of the Jews has become secularized and has become the god of the world. The bill of exchange is the real god of the Jew. His god is only an illusory bill of exchange. Once society has succeeded in abolishing the empirical essence of Judaism – huckstering and its preconditions – the Jew will have become impossible, because his consciousness no longer has an object, because the subjective basis of Judaism, practical need, has been humanized, and because the conflict between man’s individual-sensuous existence and his species-existence has been abolished. The social emancipation of the Jew is the emancipation of society from Judaism.

>>2390687
>Jews will never be free until Judaism is abolished, as Karl Marx demonstrates. Judaism must be abolished because judaism = zionism = capitalism. Humanity will never be free until judaism is abolished.
This is completely backwards, the whole point of "On the Jewish Question" is that simply doing away with Judaism or singling out Jews does nothing, as we are all the stereotypical archetype of the "Jew" in capitalism. Zionism in isolation is also not something which is equivalent to capitalism, its simply a ethno-nationalist settler colonial ideology, in the same lineage of all prior western settler colonial ideologies. Even it's conception of the state as ethnically based isn't unique, that's how all western states were conceptualized post the Treaty of Westphalia, of which Israel is just the latest iteration.

>>2390736
There will be jews under communism

>>2390739
>There will be religion, particularly religion as it's understood now, in communism
Funny.

>>2371046

worst bait I've ever seen

>>2390683
I mean no one is suggesting that the nation is a very concrete thing, to do that would be to fall into bourgeois nationalism, which Bakunin advises against as in actuality nationalism only serves to destroy actually existing organic nations in the quest for a singular reified nation to be utilized by the state.
>regions will converge in such a way as to blur national boundaries, or regions will diverge in such a way as to blur national boundaries.
National boundaries for us exist as they are, not as they somehow ought to be, as for the bourgeois nationalists. In both of these cases nations, distinct communities of people with distinct cultures, continue to exist, in some form or another, and that is what we mean by "free existence and development"

If you’re a westoid you’re not a communist.

>>2391141
If you westoid you die
Nothing personnel

>>2391151
Especially vile Anglos

>>2371046
Back in my day, trolling took effort 👴😵‍💫🥴

We can abolish the gender, but can we ablosh the biological sex?

>>2390736
Ooooh, so antisemitic of Marx.

>>2367220
You should put a gun to your head and
<Abolish life

>>2367220
Marx did none of the things listed here in the OP and was still a communist so I think it's fair to say that none of these are strict rules that are absolutely required.

>>2396631
in practice: yes. you wouldn't abolish it by name, but there are plenty of varied facets of the human condition that only come up in very specific contexts. blood type, for example, is a trivial medical detail for anyone not seeking a transfusion, and yet it takes on social roles beyond that practical matter, which are bizarre to an outside observer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_type_personality_theory#Discrimination

>>2367957
Why are you conflating nation with nation-State? You're dumb.


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