/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

Ok. I'm not a communist.

"abolish" here means "overcome"

>>2367220
press the abolish button then

>>2367223
It's lao Russia lies on you!

>no abolition of reality
typical ML zigger first world treatlerite scumoid thinking and toughting

>>2367249
>>2367232
It's easier for MLs to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism

>>2367220
could Kevin McCallister have secured the NERV compound during the JSDF's invasion

Ummm actually by "abolish" they meant "sublate" and by "sublate" they meant keep them intact but make them based.

lmao how is this even controversial. This website fucking sucks.

>>2367220
>Abolish The Family.
Agree.
>Abolish Religion.
Curious how you intend to differentiate between religious institutions and religious belief and put this all into practice, but I agree in principle.
>Abolish Wage Labour.
Agree.
>Abolish Money.
Agree.
>Abolish Work.
Agree in the long term, but this will at the very least not happen until communism, and even then how exactly this can be accomplished is entirely beyond us at this time. My point being that this is essentially empty phrasemongering until well after communism becomes dominant worldwide.
>Abolish Commodity Production.
Agree.
>Abolish the State.
Agree.
>Abolish Class.
Agree.
>Abolish Private Property.
Agree.
>Abolish the Nation.
Agree, with the caveat that in the present era of imperialism — particularly with the neo-colonial and settler-colonial domination of nations worldwide — this is a reactionary demand unless we understand the necessary alliance of national liberation movements and socialist revolution in the present era. Only well into the era where socialism is dominant worldwide will we be able to start talking about the abolition of nations in a genuine way.
>Abolish Patriarchy.
Agree.
>Abolish Gender.
Agree.
>Abolish Town and Country.
Agree.

A Reddit tourist

<Abolish The Family.
Done with private property and patriarchy. People can live how they want.
<Abolish Religion.
Don't care we aren't in the 19th century and back, burger megachurches are just a business scheme to not pay taxes handled with abolishing private property
<Abolish Wage Labour.
Yes
<Abolish Money.
Yes
<Abolish Work.
Not until we can automate everything, kiddo.
<Abolish Commodity Production.
Yes
<Abolish the State.
Capture the state, nobody wants artisnal sewer systems and disaster relief
<Abolish Class.
Yes. But the proletariat has to rule first.
<Abolish Private Property.
Yes
<Abolish the Nation.
Yes
<Abolish Patriarchy.
Yes, although the vestiges of it is all that exists in the first world. Mostly handled by abolishing private property
<Abolish Gender.
Irrelevant
<Abolish Town and Country.
Yes

Yet you refuse to abolish public schooling.
I agree with all else but you have to include public schooling in the list of abolition

>>2367220
>Abolish Work
Is this terminological autism or do you literally think there will not be a need for labor in full communism?

>>2367486
That's not what people mean by "abolish work". It's about making it unalienated and thus no longer work in the sense we think of it, but a pure expression of humankind's natural creative/constructive potential and inclinations. You still do labour it's just not miserable and alienating.

>>2367510
On one hand, the practical aspects of that are already covered by abolish wage labor right? Once wage labor is abolished you're no longer having surplus value siphoned off from you as profit so exploitation has vanished. On the other though I think it's a little utopian to think that working in a mine will ever be a pure expression of creativity or that there isn't some fundamental alienation from the product of your labor baked into a global economy. Even under full communism if you're churning out machine parts all day you're not directly experiencing what eventually comes of those goods like someone under primitive communism who sits around making arrowheads all day.

obviously all that shit gets abolished but if u think communism is just a fuckin bullet point checklist of shit to cancel you’re not a communist either lmao

>>2367455
yah the gender thing is kinda silly tbh

>abolish abolish abolish abolish
Again, it's about sublation not just uga-booga abolishment. It's a bit more complex than that
<Abolish Work
Now that's outright retarded.
<Abolish the Nation
Nations exist whether you like it or not and. Don't conflate the nation state with the existence of nations.

>>2367455
You can never automate everything. Sure most of heavy industry can be automated potentially, but people still want handmade arts and crafts, a haircut by a human etc. - I'd also to automate everything in heavy industry or agriculture is a pipedream.

Unless you want everything to be replaced with AI slop in which case I guess I'm not a communist.

>>2367220
The problem is that communist abolition is always a long process over which the old social relations are gradually strangled out by the new. Even the most basic demand, abolition of private property, requires decades of work to make it stick, and no socialist country that implemented it exists today. Bourgeois abolition is very easy in comparison because the social relations it removes are always well on their way to death, that question wouldn't be brought up otherwise. These are two very different phenomena that happen to share a name, and most wannabe communists still don't quite understand the distinction despite reading the material since the force of habit they developed by living in bourgeois society is too strong.

>abolish gender
Abolish transgenders

>>2367599
Nations came into existence with capitalism. They exist in the sense that they're social realities a realistic Communist movement has to deal with but they don't have any real existence. And while MLs have the right of it if we're taking dogmatic adherence to Lenin as the rule, we only need to look at how the USSR and Yugoslavia ended up or how many national liberation movements ended up ditching the socialism and keeping the nationalism to see that the typical 20th century line on nationalism was a failure. At best Communist parties were able to latch onto bourgeoise national movements in pre/semi-capitalist countries, use that to come to power and then start building socialism. But that's a very limited playbook that is no longer relevant in most of the world. And MLs routinely invented nationalism even when they weren't forced to deal with it, the Soviet policy towards the republics was explicitly geared towards forming national cultures and identities.

>>2367599
>This aufhebung shit again
Both Marx and Engels approved of "abolish" as a correct translation of aufhebung and used the term in several speeches they gave in English.

>>2367605
Abolishing gender means abolishing transgenders

>>2367610
They 'approved' of that terminology because they couldn't parse the nuance being lost in English. They barely spoke English. This really isn't the circumvention of fate you think it is.

>>2367605
If no one is assigned a gender, in a sense everyone will be transgender in the way they interact with and integrate into society. Under communism everyone will be trans, you heard it from me first.

>>2367613
Yeah ok bro sublate (aufhebung) is a super nuanced word which means "keep everything the exact same just make it more Proletarian™" Do I get a free membership into the ACP now?

>>2367615
hurrr my only response is to summon a strawmen laden with millennial sarcasm
off yourself, you moron. Nobody ever said what you're assuming and the fact that you can't intuit anykind of nuance inbetween the positions being espoused here reveals the vacuity of your theoretical grasp.

>>2367618
*strawman

>>2367614
If nobody is assigned a gender and if patriarchy and the gender norms that come with it are abolished then what opposite gender is there for trans people to transition to? Trans identity makes no sense without gender and patriarchy. And I don't say that to call trans people in general horrible misogynists or something but it's obviously a historically specific phenomenon and I don't see how it's possible to say otherwise without spooky essentialism, spiritual or biological.

>>2367618
Like, the uyghur I'm responding to you earnestly believes that Marx was indistinguishable from an anarchist and just wanted things to be 'smashed out of existence' lmfao. The best part is that the hollowness of the term 'abolish' relative to the utility of 'sublate' is self-apparent in the context of the philosophical ramifications written out by Marx, but the retard can't parse any of that and has to assume maximal literalism, like the hopeless theorycel autist he is.

>>2367599
>>2367602
Wage labour =/= Labour power or creative human social activity. You also cannot have communism with the division of labour, Marx is clear on this.

>>2367620
I don't think it is clear to what degree abolishing gender will make gender expression itself outmoded. It will obviously not be preserved in the current form and maybe splinter into a myriad ways of expression where it might not even be particular useful to call it gender, yet this is nothing new. Take the nuclear bourgeois family for instance, which, reproductive labor aside, retains almost none of the characteristics of other historical family units.

>>2367610
Yeah and it's a bad translation, at least because insofar retards today can't understand it. Maybe they approved of it at the time because their English-speaking peers weren't complete retards and at least slightly familiar with Hegel and dialectics.

Today it's a bad translation because retards like OP will completely misunderstand it and think of it in the literal sense of how it is used today.

It simply better to use sublation for Aufhebung (which does not translate to abolition btw, at least in the aforementioned modern sense) because it's more precise. People think today about the immediate destruction of state, private property, family, etc. which quite obviously undialectical.

>>2367609
>Nations came into existence with capitalism.
Yeah, so when the Romans spoke of natio/nationes they were capitalist. I can't think of a more ahistorical take.
>A nation is a historically constituted, stable community of people, formed on the basis of a common language, territory, economic life, and psychological make-up manifested in a common culture.
- Stalin

That has existed since clan society vanished and civilizations like the Sumerians came up. Of course there are certain characteristics of how capitalism centralizes and streamlines a nation eradicating others in the process (for example in France, completely erasing Occitanian culture) but the nation state is not equivalent with a nation.

Total Transgender Abolition

>>2367639
"Ex" Nazis are so easy to spot.

Gender is patriarchy. Therefore transgenders are patriarchy

>>2367633
Then fucking say wage labor and not just work to sound edgy. I hate this shit, no normal worker will understand it.
<Every child knows a nation which ceased to work, I will not say for a year, but even for a few weeks, would perish. Every child knows, too, that the masses of products corresponding to the different needs required different and quantitatively determined masses of the total labor of society. That this necessity of the distribution of social labor in definite proportions cannot possibly be done away with by a particular form of social production but can only change the mode of its appearance , is self-evident. No natural laws can be done away with. What can change in historically different circumstances is only the form in which these laws assert themselves. And the form in which this proportional distribution of labor asserts itself, in the state of society where the interconnection of social labor is manifested in the private exchange of the individual products of labor, is precisely the exchange value of these products.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1868/letters/68_07_11-abs.htm

>>2367641
>no argument, so just call him a nazi when he quotes Stalin
Ex-Libs are so easy to spot

Seems like an easier angle at this would be to say "to be a communist is to abolish spooks"

>>2367640
>>2367642
total moid sterilization
>what do you mean that's not a direct consequence of abolishing the family?

>>2367650
Cut out your cock and balls then

>>2367650
Transgenders existed back in the ancient times too, dummy

>>2367645
NTA butNations have indeed existed before capitalism but I don't see why they should continue to exist after it. Time has proven that although the Leninist line on the National Question was correct for the time, in the long run it has only lead to chauvinism and capitalism.

>>2367635
Regardless it's obviously retarded to say that transsexuality in its present form will exist under communism, let alone that everyone will be trans.
>>2367642
If we're taking gender to mean social roles and forms of behavior that are culturally assigned to a biological sex then yes. Without the idea that men dress and act a certain way and women dress and act a certain other way then what is there to base a trans identity on? Everything that's now "gendered" would just be neutral because everyone is doing the same work and fulfilling the same social roles regardless of sex.
>>2367645
Nazism is liberalism thoughbeit.

>>2367612
It's odd to emphasize that specifically when it's only a byproduct of abolishing cisgenderism as a practice. If you're never assigned a gender at birth, there's nothing to transition from.

>>2367655
Nations is a new thing, you are wrong

>>2367658
>cisgenderism
Essentialism

Transgenders are a byproduct of patriarchy. They are enemical to it

>>2367661
Yes, gender assignment is an essentialist practice and should be abolished. Most of gender as a concept would die off as a result of that.

>>2367663
I mean saying cisgenderism is essentialism

Sage

I genuinely wonder if this is a fed. I was reading the Wikipedia page for Grenada today, America seemed to be basically tripping over itself as soon as any pretense for a violent regime change emerged. For instance, American soldiers were using literal tourist maps where key features like runways had to be drawn on. I take this not so much as evidence of the incompetence of the military, but that the very instant a communist vulnerability presented itself, it was a top priority that it had to be immediately exploited, even more important that actually planning and executing the mission.
With the election of Zohran, I really do feel certain that revolution/civil war is imminent in the future, there’s no way on the face of the planet that plans for communist murder aren’t already being drawn up in the most powerful boardrooms in this country. I wonder if something like a police coup could be possible, or some kind of “nonviolent” federal siege on NYC. Our rural populace genuinely hate our cities and anything that requires funding or maintenance (the materially existing country itself), which I bring up not because I think the feds would feel the need to have popular support, but because I think insecure retards from NW NJ or NC would eagerly volunteer their lives and money for the opportunity to live out their fantasy of dignifying their victimhood with the blood of their countrymen, who literally will be closest thing to something that they can identify as a badguy.

Like dawg, all these 2A fed hating orcs are probably going to get mobilized against us in some sort of absurd reverse cultural revolution. We need to start banding together and figuring out ways to find and support each other, and we need to stop thinking of communism as a checklist for Eden and we need to start thinking of it as a team.

>>2367656
>Regardless it's obviously retarded to say that transsexuality in its present form will exist under communism, let alone that everyone will be trans.
You fail to see gender expression as a distinct concept from the current social institution of gender. "Everyone will be trans" is obviously a bit of an exaggeration, but in the absence of current norms i do think a lot more people will actively present as something and take hormones. I don't strictly define transition as transitioning into the "opposite gender", rather as consciously changing ones relation to society in a drastic way. In this way future "gender" should emerge as a kind of synthesis between transgenderism and very intricate subcultures.

>>2367664
>saying cisgenderism is essentialism
>defining essentialist constructs is itself somehow essentialist
You usually need to define things to critique them, especially for immanent critique, since you need the thing being critiqued to have an internal logic to use that internal logic against it. Unless you're doing a Plato thing where defining shapes is essentialism.

>>2367660
>>2367660
The current form of the Nation-State is indeed a "new" product of capitalism and the bourgeoisie since at least the 1600s but Nations have existed long before.

>>2367666
The MEK thread was what did it for me. Ultras are unfortunately real enough all on their own but the shilling this place gets is obvious consensus cracking and in cases like that straight up propaganda for a CIA proxy.

>>2367673
You uyghas always accuse people of being evil CIA agents whenever someone slightly deviates from the echo-chamber consensus of the board. Name one fucking thing that's wrong or anti-communist with the things mentioned in the OP.

>>2367676
MEK is literally a known CIA proxy, that's not debatable. And ultras were shilling them here as based anti-campists. I am not a campist and I don't think all ultras are CIA, a lot of you are just zoomer retards who jumped on the ICP fad because of the memes. But when it glows it glows and it sometimes does.

>>2367677
Wasn't there for the MEK thread nor do I care about Iran. I ask you again, what exactly is anti-communist or ultraleftist about wanting to get rid of the State and Private Property? Shouldn't this be the goal of all communists?

>>2367683
I don't disagree with anything in the OP unless the implication is that if year 1 of DOTP all that hasn't been done that you have a counterrevolutionary system. Which knowing you retards is possible.

What I definitely do disagree with is 50% of the catalog being low effort bait ripped from /r/ultraleft, that's the definition of sliding. If you're going to spam this shit then at least put together researched and well thought out posts.

This is what is known in political terms as a maximal position or maximal program.
Saying because you hold such and such position you are eternally politically correct is cheap, isn't it?
It is a retreat into fantasy or utopia.
The question is what are you prepared to do about it?
As old Merkel said: "Well, they are here now." One way or another you will have to interact with reality, you can't hide from it forever. Reality has a tendency to assert itself, that is what makes it true.
Old Oscar, after being thrown into prison on trumped-up charges, like so many real comrades, wrote "what is realised is right".
Anyway, this is the new thread about the real and unreal. More metaphysical than political.
I tire a bit explaining the same rather simple ideas so I will refrain from expounding further.
It will stop being stupid or it gets the Orwell again.

>>2367677
>ICP fad
You shut your whore mouth about icp

>>2367693
Which ICP? There are two after all. Or did you mean the ICT or ICC? All sectarian microparties that nobody even inside of the Italian left knows anything about aside from the memes. It's definitely not ideology shopping to latch onto a foreign microparty because of memes and a social clique right? Nope, that's the real movement and literally everyone outside this irrelevant little bubble is a leftist who probably watches Hasan or something.