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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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Not reporting is bourgeois


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China is fasbol gang.

No, it is not "red fash".
No, this post isn't claiming it is anti-communist.
No, this thread is not a thorough academic analysis. It is a post to be thought about, not believed.

The Leninist strategy involves using and controlling the existing private economy in a proletariat-controlled transitional state as a means of social and economic reform, creating the conditions needed for a socialist state and hopefully then a communist society.

Whether China's existing economy is "capitalist" or "socialist" or some form of hybrid is a debated topic. It has historically had strong elements of a private economy, with state control of companies growing and now dominant. Many claim that the state is controlled by the proletariat and therefore the state property is public property, thereby making it a partly-socialist economy, or at the very least, departed from a primarily capitalist economy. But however you stand on this discussion, the point is that a capitalist economy has been subsumed by state control into something distinct, socialist or not.

This post asserts that this is not merely "modified capitalism as a pathway to communism", but more specifically "modified fascism as a pathway to communism". And it appears to be viable.

This post is specifically talking about classical Fascism in its original formation, prior to pressure from the squadrismo in 1921, and far prior to pressure from Nazi allies. If you don't understand how the petite-bourgeois militias influenced fascism, or think Nazism is fascist, or think that ᴉuᴉlossnW had any respect for Nazism whatsoever, then you don't have the necessary foundational knowledge to understand this post yet, come back to it after reading a Wikipedia page, at least.

This thesis relies on these core facts:
>the PRC, by its government's own admission, has always been class collaborationist
>the PRC is corporatist
>the PRC has a variety of other fascist tendencies

The PRC is class collaborationist
>Who are the people? At the present stage in China, they are the working class, the peasantry, the urban petite bourgeoisie and the national bourgeoisie. These classes, led by the working class and the Communist Party, unite to form their own state and elect their own government; they enforce their dictatorship over the running dogs of imperialism – the landlord class and bureaucrat-bourgeoisie, as well as the representatives of those classes, the Kuomintang reactionaries and their accomplices – suppress them, allow them only to behave themselves and not to be unruly in word or deed.
Mao Zedong, June 30, 1949, explaining the four classes of China's New Democracy.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-4/mswv4_65.htm

The PRC flag has one large start surrounded by four more stars. The CPC official government interpretation of the flag is that the large star represents the CPC and the four smaller stars symbolizing the working class, the peasantry, the urban petite bourgeoisie, and the national bourgeoisie united around them. These four classes, the bourgeoisie being two of them, in collaboration with the proletariat.
I really don't think this point needs any more evidence, the rest is evident. The bourgeoisie are generally subservient to the state, with even the most powerful facing execution and other suppression. The workers are generally subservient to the state, with Maoists and other extreme anticapitalists being imprisoned for meeting or sharing propaganda. The state, more and more, acts as a mediator between the inherent class conflict between these classes, resulting in a relatively stable, progressive and successful market economy, much unlike the bourgeois-dominated failure of Fascist Italy's class struggle suppression, under the false guise of 'collaboration'.

The PRC is corporatist
Surely you already know about trade union suppression (the ACFTU is the country's sole legally mandated trade union) and overwhelming CPC dominance in the National People's Congress (which even has it's own huge military delegation!), but do you know about the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference? This is effectively how the NPC is advised by industrial representatives divided by corporate groups (not corporations!), who collectively form an overwhelming majority. Ultimately the NPC (and therefore CPC) supervise, direct and determine whether these policies become legislation, this functions as a corporatist subversion of syndicalism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_members_of_CPPCC_by_sector

The PRC has a variety of other fascist tendencies
This is self-evident so they can be listed:
- Antiliberalism
- Nationalism
- Ultranationalism
- Irredentismo
- Centralized autocracy
- Forcible suppression of internal opposition, including communists
While fascism is not a checklist, these are nevertheless relevant. Some tendencies common to historical fascist movements, like militaristic imperialism, strong reactionary social values and anticommunism, are not evident in the PRC; consider it fascism with Chinese characteristics.

What does this mean?
I am not using fascism here with positive or negative implications, simply outlining that its synthesis with the M-L transitional state appears to be an effective method for China to create a stable world power and resist the US. And, through its autocratic structure along with wise choices within the party, appears to have preserved the ideological communist and Marxist core of the party leadership. Powerful bourgeois elements have not been able to dominate the state, especially since the anti-corruption purges (which devastated the CIA's pay-to-win asset promotion technique). Inexperienced and narrow-focused workers have not been able to destabilize the state. President Xi appears to be sincerely communist, in the full lofty "stateless classless society" meaning of that term. And if the PRC's tactic of a fascist transitional state on the path to socialism continues to show itself to be successful at retaining and promoting world communism, I wonder what implications this will have, theoretical and practical, on communist movements worldwide.

Your next line is to make an offended one sentence dogmapost because you took this too literally!
434 posts and 84 image replies omitted.

>>2371884
bourgeois forces exist outside of Communist China such as bourgeois naysayers like you who slander Communist China

>>2371884
You are a bad faith actor, a well-poisoner, a paid or unpaid glowie, a less-than-a-comrade, a literal scum, a skank, a nobody.

I don't have to answer your pretence questions, I only have to know that you are my class enemy.

>>2371888
This should become a banner, btw

>Dengists have no choice but to blatantly, aggressively lie, in a move that makes it very clear, to everyone, and themselves, that they know they stand in defense of the indefensible
And here I do proudly say, every last Dengist should have their brains splattered on the wall, and if their families would object, they should be executed as well :)

Anyone that resorts to absurd, and obvious lies, has asserted themselves as a military target, and is now admissible for immediate execution

Never forget, if a communist revolution were to occur, dengist heads would be piled in a town square 🫣

>>2371900
Some of us are doing it ironically you sarcasm blind autist

>>2371900
China (communism) is winning while you (capitalism) is losing. Boo-hoo, bitch

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>>2371875
In China, what we typically call the “bourgeoisie” doesn’t really exist in the classical sense.
They are more or less state-supervised entrepreneurial stratum that:
Operates on a license.
And have no formal power over the state apparatus,unlike the western capitalist countries that actively lobby the government to pass policies that further satisfy their class interest

In short They do not own land (bc it is state or collective-owned and they basically have a limited license of using that urban land for a business or smth for like 30 to 70 years I think ),
Their firms can be regulated, split, or nationalized,
Their wealth can and it is curbed (e.g. under Xi’s “common prosperity” drive),
And they can be purged (e.g. Jack Ma, tech crackdown).

>2371953
>In China, what we typically call the “bourgeoisie” doesn’t really exist in the classical sense.
They are more or less state-supervised entrepreneurial stratum
Good luck trying to explain this simple fact to ameri-burgers, btw

I believe the desire for socialism in China is genuine, I just don't have the optimism 2050 will be the year that socialism is implemented.

>>2371975
Nobody, not even the fucking Sea Sea Pee, believes that 2050 is "le epic communism time," fyi.

>>2371979
nobody said communism
and in the governance of china it said it would be 2049

>>2371975
>I believe the desire for socialism in China is genuine
The vibes

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>>2371975

Communism is the stage of historical development in which the productive forces have reached such a level that class distinctions dissolve, the state becomes obsolete, and society organizes itself through stateless, classless, communal ownership of the means of production

We still have a long road until then, as for the next stage of socialism I doubt we would see it in this century, maybe in the early 22nd century if AI and productive forces have advanced to the point that the market structure becomes obsolete

>>2371994
>I doubt we would see it in this century
What about the basics. Free healthcare, free education including higher education. Most importantly, housing as a right. This is what the Left of the CPC desire. Will Xi deliver?

>>2371975
China is socialist coded tbqhf

>>2371998
Uhm China had that since 1949 onward …. I was referring to them going beyond the present of socialism in the form of market structure

>>2372002
>Uhm China had that since 1949 onward
But it doesn't have it anymore.

>>2369582
Fascism was undoubtedly racist. What is it that you think fascists were doing colonizing Libya, Albania or Abyssinia. They were totally racist and borderline genocidal at moments. OP is whitewashing actual fascism but wants to point at China, kek.

people who think, or want, china to be fascist have no clue what fascism is

>akschually thats not a real fascism

Mucho texto

>>2371900
cool it with the moralism

>>2371735
libs on the site should listen to the CPC when they say they're still in socialist construction lmao

>>2371900
you will never pile any heads anywhere because your leftcom ultra trotskyist bullshit is incapable of starting any movement beyond selling newspapers, meanwhile 'dengist' china is mogging the entire western left with development of the means of production

> Irredentismo

Country that gave up the entirety of outer mongolia is irredentist. Westoid slave morality means anything short letting the imperialists colonize you with no pushback is irredentist hypernationalist authorityism red fash.

>>2371900
never beating the larper allegations

>>2369537

> In this essay I will argue China is fascist by using a definition of fascism that excludes both the Nazis and the Italian Fascists.


The westoid brainpan is predispositioned towards autistic debatebro agonizing over semantics .

> China is actually fascist

>>2369653

> Fascism is the purest form of marxism


Dengist Ultra theory.

You retards realize that "ultras" simply cannot lose here right?

If China really is communist, then we win because we want communism. If China is capitalist pretending to be communist, then we win because we are proven right.

>>2371808
>This solution can only consist in the practical recognition of the social nature of the modern forces of production, and therefore in the harmonizing with the socialized character of the means of production.
> But, with the taking over by society of the productive forces, the social character of the means of production and of the products will be utilized by the producers with a perfect understanding of its nature, and instead of being a source of disturbance and periodical collapse, will become the most powerful lever of production itself.
>Then the capitalist mode of appropriation, in which the product enslaves first the producer, and then the appropriator, is replaced by the mode of appropriation of the products that is based upon the nature of the modern means of production; upon the one hand, direct social appropriation, as means to the maintenance and extension of production — on the other, direct individual appropriation, as means of subsistence and of enjoyment.
>Whilst the capitalist mode of production more and more completely transforms the great majority of the population into proletarians, it creates the power which, under penalty of its own destruction, is forced to accomplish this revolution. Whilst it forces on more and more of the transformation of the vast means of production, already socialized, into State property, it shows itself the way to accomplishing this revolution. The proletariat seizes political power and turns the means of production into State property.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/ch03.htm

>>2371980
>nobody said communism
Well, I did.

>>2371994
I approve this post.

>>2371998
>What about the basics. Free healthcare,
You are, in fact, a Chapo Trap House-tier basic socdem. We (the ploreteriat) will execute your ilk during the revolution.

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>>2371730
that's literally what happened though >>2370198
>Nothing more communist than stabilizing the American economy for 40+ years
if by "stabilizing the american economy" you mean "deindustrializing it and rendering it unable to fend for itself and totally dependent on China" then yes

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>>2371975
>muh beliefs
<matter
Only development matters. Only objective processes matter.

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>>2372681
beliefs matter to the extent that they can be cultivated in others and used to control their behavior make them behave somewhat predictably and according to your materialist interests. beliefs also matter to the extent that they can be faked for the purposes of manipulating the sincere gullible and naive. Nothing matters more than appearing to hold the dominant beliefs.

>>2371998

<the Left

>2025

>>2372691
>beliefs matter
No, kys. Only development matters.

>>2372699
beliefs are material development that occur in the brain in the form of neurochemistry

>>2372699
Bit of a vulgar materialist framing anon

https://thetricontinental.org/wenhua-zongheng-2025-1-industrial-policy-chinese-characteristics/

I think this article was really interesting to help understanding how china "market socialism" actually operate

> The first perspective is the general institutional foundation, which includes the fundamental leadership system (the leadership of the Communist Party of China [CPC]) and the basic economic system during the primary stage of socialism. The second perspective includes specific institutions, referred to as intermediary institutions. Four intermediary institutions are particularly noteworthy: constructive markets, the socialist capital market with Chinese characteristics, intra-government competition, and inter-local government competition. These four institutions are interconnected, with constructive markets occupying the central position. The socialist capital market with Chinese characteristics serves constructive markets, and the integration of the two markets reflects the behavioural patterns of the state economy under the conditions of a socialist market economy. Similarly, the two forms of competition – intra-government competition and inter-local government competition – are premised on and directed toward developing constructive markets.


>Constructive markets represent a unique form of markets that emerge in strategic and foundational sectors. In theories of market formation, two contrasting perspectives exist. The first is Friedrich Hayek’s view that markets emerge through spontaneous evolution and cannot be rationally constructed by the state. The second is the Marxist view that markets are created through the state’s active intervention. Karl Polanyi further argued that although markets have a tendency for self-expansion, the notion of a completely autonomous and self-regulating ‘disembedded’ market has never existed in reality and remains a utopian ideal.5

This article adopts the latter perspective. In strategic and foundational sectors, the state acts as the architect of the market, guiding its developmental trajectory and coordinating the division of labour in society through various means and to varying degrees.

>The analysis of constructive markets must start from the basic economic system in the primary stage of socialism. In previous research, the author of this paper proposed that in the socialist market economy, state economic governance and market regulation are distinct yet interconnected mechanisms of resource allocation and economic coordination, and their relationship forms the core of the basic economic system at the primary stage of socialism. This system comprises three dimensions: ownership, distributive relations, and the socialist market economy to organise social labour. These three dimensions are vertically integrated, interconnected, and mutually inclusive

>Through this integration, both state economic governance and market regulation combine, with the state operating outside the market and also actively participating within it through state-owned capital and state-owned enterprises (SOEs).

>Scrutinising the state’s economic role requires further analysis of the principles governing state economic behaviour. Under the socialist planned economy, Stalin proposed that state economic behaviour is governed by the fundamental economic law of socialism and the law of planned proportional development of the national economy.

>The fundamental economic law of socialism is the allocation of resources according to social need. The law of planned proportional development refers to state-defined strategic objectives to plan and adjust intersectoral relationships. These two laws represent a relationship between goals and means. Under market economy conditions, the fundamental economic law of socialism continues to operate through mechanisms such as national development plans. Meanwhile, the law of planned proportional development evolves into two distinct dimensions.
>The first dimension is state coordination of markets, where the state engages in macroeconomic management to balance the national economy. This includes addressing supply-side bottlenecks in areas such as population, land, environment, and knowledge production; while on the demand side, it involves mitigating insufficient effective demand to stabilise short-term growth and employment. The second dimension is state construction of markets, whereby the state assumes the role of market creator and leader by altering proportional relationships between targeted sectors or creating new sectors through long-term investments to fulfil national strategic objectives.

>It is worth reflecting that when Stalin proposed the two aforementioned laws of state economic behaviour, he also stated that the object of socialist political economy is the relations of production. However, for Stalin, these relations of production were no longer the civil society or the free-market economy studied by Karl Marx in Das Kapital but the state itself. In other words, by examining the laws governing state economic behaviour, Stalin regarded the state as possessing a dual character. On the one hand, the state remains part of the superstructure. On the other hand, it also constitutes part of the economic base, becoming an object of political economy. Recognising this duality represents a significant theoretical contribution by Stalin.


>In the socialist market economy, the law of state behaviour in constructing markets is a new manifestation of this duality.


>Viewing the constructive market as a product of the laws governing state economic behaviour helps to conceptualise industrial policy as a subject of socialist political economy. Constructive markets in the socialist market economy have two main characteristics. First, the state assumes the task of constructing markets on both the supply and demand sides, often acting as a special agent embedded in the market in various ways to continuously guide market development and coordinate the division of labour. Second, the state’s development strategy introduces a use value goal into the market which interacts with the exchange value objectives pursued by enterprises, placing the former in a relatively dominant position


>It should be noted that in the concept of a constructive market, the term ‘market’ is derived from Volume II of Das Kapital.10

Unlike the mainstream view of the market as merely a system of transactions, Marx defines the market (or circulation) as the sphere of capital movement, characterised by the unity of production and exchange.
> In this sense, the state’s construction of markets is also a process of reshaping the division of labour and its internal connections.

>>2371359
no, thats why they will always be children

>>2372347

You value "being right" just as much as actually achieving communism. Amazing.

>>2371974
>They are more or less state-supervised entrepreneurial stratum
>Good luck trying to explain this simple fact to ameri-burgers, btw
Lol. Where is that in Marxist theory?

>>2371953
>They are more or less state-supervised entrepreneurial stratum that:
>Operates on a license.
That's how it is in every country.
>And have no formal power over the state apparatus,
That's how it is in every country.
>unlike the western capitalist countries that actively lobby the government to pass policies that further satisfy their class interest
I don't think you know what the word formal means.

>In short They do not own land (bc it is state or collective-owned and they basically have a limited license of using that urban land for a business or smth for like 30 to 70 years I think ),

Land ownership and ownership of everything is only theoretical because your ownership can be removed by the state for a number of reasons and also you will lose your ownerhip for failure to pay the yearly taxes you owe on the property, so ownership isn't really that much different than a lease. Either situation you are at the mercy of the government, and in a lease is just or more secure than "ownership" depending on the whims of the government.
>Their firms can be regulated, split, or nationalized,
That's everywhere.

While I still don't believe that China is truly "fascist" in the sense that it had undergone the process of a developed capitalist economy undergoing crisis then the bourgeois using the full force of the state to solidify their position and crush an emergent proletarian revolution. The fact that the way it's economy is organized does at least superficially resemble the class collaborationist "corporatist" economies of entities like fascist Italy. Also looking at how the PRC has developed since the Cultural Revolution and the implementation of Reform and Opening Up under Deng Xiaoping you can't really argue the results once you put aside aversions to comparing it to fascist political economies or the desire to simply condemn the PRC and the CPC as revisionist social fascist/imperialist.
>>2371184
>>2370882
I think Bordiga was actually pretty based in many ways. Too bad most of his self proclaimed followers are enormous retards.

Daily reminder that the Soviet Union was fascist, and the only real AES is what's mandated by the CIA.

I know I titled this "A provocative flame thread" but I honestly wasn't expecting 500 replies, or even 50.

>>2373309
>>2371329
You get what you fucking deserve

>>2369582
kill yourself


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