China is fasbol gang.
No, it is not "red fash".
No, this post isn't claiming it is anti-communist.
No, this thread is not a thorough academic analysis. It is a post to be
thought about, not
believed.
The Leninist strategy involves using and controlling the existing private economy in a proletariat-controlled transitional state as a means of social and economic reform, creating the conditions needed for a socialist state and hopefully then a communist society.
Whether China's existing economy is "capitalist" or "socialist" or some form of hybrid is a debated topic. It has historically had strong elements of a private economy, with state control of companies growing and now dominant. Many claim that the state is controlled by the proletariat and therefore the state property is public property, thereby making it a partly-socialist economy, or at the very least, departed from a primarily capitalist economy. But however you stand on this discussion, the point is that a capitalist economy has been subsumed by state control into something distinct, socialist or not.
This post asserts that this is not merely "modified capitalism as a pathway to communism", but more specifically "modified
fascism as a pathway to communism". And it appears to be viable.
This post is specifically talking about classical Fascism in its original formation, prior to pressure from the squadrismo in 1921, and far prior to pressure from Nazi allies. If you don't understand how the petite-bourgeois militias influenced fascism, or think Nazism is fascist, or think that ᴉuᴉlossnW had
any respect for Nazism whatsoever, then you don't have the necessary foundational knowledge to understand this post yet, come back to it after reading a Wikipedia page, at least.
This thesis relies on these core facts:
>the PRC, by its government's own admission, has always been class collaborationist>the PRC is corporatist>the PRC has a variety of other fascist tendenciesThe PRC is class collaborationist>Who are the people? At the present stage in China, they are the working class, the peasantry, the urban petite bourgeoisie and the national bourgeoisie. These classes, led by the working class and the Communist Party, unite to form their own state and elect their own government; they enforce their dictatorship over the running dogs of imperialism – the landlord class and bureaucrat-bourgeoisie, as well as the representatives of those classes, the Kuomintang reactionaries and their accomplices – suppress them, allow them only to behave themselves and not to be unruly in word or deed.Mao Zedong, June 30, 1949, explaining the four classes of China's New Democracy.https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-4/mswv4_65.htmThe PRC flag has one large start surrounded by four more stars. The CPC official government interpretation of the flag is that the large star represents the CPC and the four smaller stars symbolizing the working class, the peasantry, the urban petite bourgeoisie, and the national bourgeoisie united around them. These four classes, the bourgeoisie being two of them, in collaboration with the proletariat.
I really don't think this point needs any more evidence, the rest is evident. The bourgeoisie are generally subservient to the state, with even the most powerful facing execution and other suppression. The workers are generally subservient to the state, with Maoists and other extreme anticapitalists being imprisoned for meeting or sharing propaganda. The state, more and more, acts as a mediator between the inherent class conflict between these classes, resulting in a relatively stable, progressive and successful market economy, much unlike the bourgeois-dominated failure of Fascist Italy's class struggle suppression, under the false guise of 'collaboration'.
The PRC is corporatistSurely you already know about trade union suppression (the ACFTU is the country's sole legally mandated trade union) and overwhelming CPC dominance in the National People's Congress (which even has it's own huge military delegation!), but do you know about the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference? This is effectively how the NPC is advised by industrial representatives divided by corporate groups (not corporations!), who collectively form an overwhelming majority. Ultimately the NPC (and therefore CPC) supervise, direct and determine whether these policies become legislation, this functions as a corporatist subversion of syndicalism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_members_of_CPPCC_by_sectorThe PRC has a variety of other fascist tendenciesThis is self-evident so they can be listed:
- Antiliberalism
- Nationalism
- Ultranationalism
- Irredentismo
- Centralized autocracy
- Forcible suppression of internal opposition, including communists
While fascism is not a checklist, these are nevertheless relevant. Some tendencies common to historical fascist movements, like militaristic imperialism, strong reactionary social values and anticommunism, are not evident in the PRC; consider it fascism with Chinese characteristics.
What does this mean?I am not using fascism here with positive or negative implications, simply outlining that its synthesis with the M-L transitional state appears to be an effective method for China to create a stable world power and resist the US. And, through its autocratic structure along with wise choices within the party, appears to have preserved the ideological communist and Marxist core of the party leadership. Powerful bourgeois elements have not been able to dominate the state, especially since the anti-corruption purges (which devastated the CIA's pay-to-win asset promotion technique). Inexperienced and narrow-focused workers have not been able to destabilize the state. President Xi appears to be sincerely communist, in the full lofty "stateless classless society" meaning of that term. And if the PRC's tactic of a fascist transitional state on the path to socialism continues to show itself to be successful at retaining and promoting world communism, I wonder what implications this will have, theoretical and practical, on communist movements worldwide.
Your next line is to make an offended one sentence dogmapost because you took this too literally!yeah that doesn't make any sense because you are using an idealist definition of fascism instead of the materialist one that centers its social and material reproduction. og italian fascism as corporatocracy or whatever is letting fascists define for themselves what they are which is obviously incoherent. theres a reason that we dont call things that look exactly like fascism that occurred before the 1930s fascist and its because of fascisms relation to capitalism and imperialism. at its most basic fascism isn't even particular distinct from regular liberalism and distinguishing between the two is actually a type of nationalist chauvinism that places greater importance on the civilians of ones own nation over another. there is nothing that fascists do that imperialists dont also do, the difference is that they do it to their own citizens.
fascism at its most basic is simply imperialism turned inwards, which means for one that you have to be imperialist before fascist, which means you have to be at the highest level of capitalist development. imperialism naturally and logically follows from capitalist accumulation as market competition breeds monopoly and the exhaustion of profitable avenues to employ technology are fully saturated necessitating an expansion into extra-territorial markets to stave of the falling rate of profit. if the nation in question is not strong enough to expand extra-territoriality then first they try neoliberal austerity and re-enclosing or re-privatization of publicly owned infrastructure and services, and sometimes this is enough to overcome the falling rate of profit temporarily, if the workers accept it. but if the workers dont accept it but are also not sufficiently organized for a revolution then the state will enforce the will of the bourgeoisie through violence, and that is when you get fascism.
so fascism requires three things:
highest stage of capitalist development
failed imperialist expansion
failed communist revolution
and the most comprehensive definition of fascism is:
the open terroristic dictatorship of finance capital
so developing nations arent fascist, or imperialist, and neither are comprador regimes, no matter how many boxes they check or how violent they are. thats why chaing kai shrek and pinochit are not technically fascist even if they resemble it. what is really going on is that capitalism already resembles fascism. nationalism and centralization are basically entirely separate topics that can apply to anything. fascism is not actually antiliberal its the logical conclusion of liberalism, or dialectically where the thing turns into its opposite. they are not in opposition in the sense that they are mutually exclusive but rather that the intensification of one makes it become the other. the most acute example of this are the camps, where workers are turned into disposable slaves, wages stripped, and worked until they die, directly turning humans into machines that print money which is the natural endpoint of a society based on private ownership of production for profit, which is capitalism, and the private ownership part being the basis of liberalism, whos founding principle is that the ownership of private property is believed to be the necessary precondition for liberty.
when we similarly analyze china from this dialectical perspective we can see that it is based on the founding principle that productive forces themselves are the necessary precondition for liberty, that humanity cannot be free from starvation and exposure without food and houses, and the state subsumes everything else towards this directive of increasing the productive forces until the point when peoples basic needs are met, then their wants, then desires, and finally it reaches the point where the dictatorship to enforce production also turns into its opposite, and becomes an organ for administration of the abundance that society creates, from each according to ability to each according to need, and work becomes lifes prime want etc.
>>2369513>The state, more and more, acts as a mediator between the inherent class conflict between these classes, resulting in a relatively stable, progressive and successful market economyIsn't that EVERY capitalist state though?
>Some tendencies common to historical fascist movements, like militaristic imperialism, strong reactionary social values and anticommunism, are not evident in the PRCKind of important. I don't think people who try to reduce fascism to class collaboration or some economic policy realize how cracked the fascists were in the 1930s.
>>2369533>every capitalist state>stable, progressive and successfulpass me whatever you're smoking, shit must be breddy good
>I don't think people who try to reduce fascism to class collaboration or some economic policy realize how cracked the fascists were in the 1930s.Oh yeah, fascists were never good. Any part of not being garbage was either political theater or theoretical fantasy which vanished as soon as they collaborated with the anti-socialist middle class and industrialist.
>>2369526> fascism is not actually antiliberal its the logical conclusion of liberalism, or dialectically where the thing turns into its opposite<Harvard hired a researcher to uncover its ties to slavery. He says the results cost him his job: ‘We found too many slaves’: When the extent of the university’s involvement with slavery was unearthed, a scholar tracking descendants of enslaved workers was suddenly firedhttps://www.theguardian.com/news/2025/jun/21/harvard-slavery-decendants-of-the-enslavedall those PMC who write for The Atlantic about "cancel culture ruining free speech" are completely silent about Zionists deporting Americans for daring to write OpEd articles about the Palestine holocaust. They are not "hypocrites", its simply that every liberal is a white supremacist nazi collaborator who is controlled by capitalist hegemony
<They All Signed the Harper’s Letter. Where Are They Now?: Many of those who were loudest in denouncing cancel culture then are now curiously silent in the face of Donald Trump’s assaults on free speech.www.thenation.com/article/society/harpers-letter-free-speech-trump/
>increasing the productive forces until the point when peoples basic needs are met, then their wants, then desires, and finally it reaches the point where the dictatorship to enforce production also turns into its opposite, and becomes an organ for administration of the abundance that society createsneoliberal TikTok consumerism is literally so radical that Zionist finance imperialists tried to block it
>>2369582>ᴉuᴉlossnW [was] fond of MarxI'm not aware of this, got anything for me to springboard off to find it? I only really know about his stated objections to Marxism (like rejecting historical materialism as absolutist and [supposedly] ignoring the role of idealism like 'heroism' that [supposedly] has nothing to do with economic interests)
>>2369581>its simply that every liberal is a white supremacist nazi collaboratorI guess Will Smith is a white supremacist.
Liberals in the west are complicit in white supremacy, but I'd hold off on saying they
are white supremacists, because Average Joe will think you're insane for conflating belief (thinking whites are supreme) with result (white supremacy is preserved). You're not totally wrong but you've phrased it in a way that will make most people dismiss your point immediately. And that matters, being correct is useless if no-one is listening.
>>2369582That's entirely propaganda. Fascism alway favoured buisnesses.
Racism was only rejected up to a year, then like republicanism, when it became inconvinient to hold such position they dropped it in favour of it's opposite. We had the racial laws instituted in 1938:
https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leggi_razziali_fasciste >>2369607https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_fascism_and_racismIt's never easy to tell when a fascist like ᴉuᴉlossnW is being sincere or simply saying what they think will gain them power. But, I suspect, ᴉuᴉlossnW did not actually believe in race bullshit and was pressured into it by the bourgeoisie and/or Nazi Germany. This is not a defense of ᴉuᴉlossnW, rope be unto him, but instead evidence that he had little control over the bourgeois movement he led and proof that their fascist belief is idealistic garbage that doesn't work out in reality.
>In an interview conducted in 1932 at Palazzo Venezia in Rome, he reportedly said: "Race? It is a feeling, not a reality: ninety-five percent, at least, is a feeling. Nothing will ever make me believe that biologically pure races can be shown to exist today".>In the early 1920s, ᴉuᴉlossnW published an article which stated that Fascism would never elevate a "Jewish Question" and that "Italy knows no antisemitism and we believe that it will never know it" and then elaborated "let us hope that Italian Jews will continue to be sensible enough so as not to give rise to antisemitism in the only country where it has never existed". In 1932 during a conversation with Emil Ludwig, ᴉuᴉlossnW described antisemitism as a "German vice" and stated: "There was 'no Jewish Question' in Italy and could not be one in a country with a healthy system of government". On several occasions, ᴉuᴉlossnW spoke positively about Jews and the Zionist movement.On one hand, this could be an insincere call for nationalist unity or to placate the masses and/or Jewish members of the bourgeoisie. On the other, they could be sincere beliefs - it's no secret that ᴉuᴉlossnW thought Hitler and the NSDAP was stupid.
>>2369607Yawn. Wikipedia midwit knowledge which overlooks the subtlety of the realpolitik based dynamics of Italy in relation to the material conditions of the time. They did similar shit in the USSR but nobody in their right mind calls the USSR racist.
I'm not referring to some cursory google slop, I'm referring to the actual philosophical makeup of Giovanni Gentile's position, which was explicitly anathema to anything racist. Theory of mind as pure act and 'on education' are literally anti-racist texts, and they serve as the philosophical basis for (NON-NAZI) fascism, which Gentile considered a complimentary extension of Marxism: "Anyone who speaks of communism in Italy today is a corporatist impatient about the necessary delays in the development of an idea that is the temperate correction of the communist utopia and the most logical and therefore truer statement than what one can expect from communism."
- Giovanni Gentile, “Discorso agli Italiani” del 24 giugno 1943.
ᴉuᴉlossnW had to pragmatically adopt racial policies in the context of his realpolitik oriented alliance with the axis, but he privately despised Hitler and the racialist policies of Italy were fleeting and internally controversial amongst the government of the time.
>>2369645But I don't know why I bother wasting my time here. Most people here are like 20 years old and the extent of their knowledge relates to maybe the most cursory Marxist texts, no broader philosophical backdrop (rejecting Hegel makes Marxism incoherent ideologically), and an ensemble of youtube videos and wikipedia/first page google results as the totality of their understanding of 'communism' or 'Marxism'. Yes, Nazism was a retarded, abhorrent ideology and that form of fascism has no compatibility with Marxism. But the truth of the modalities of history is much more complex than that; not all categories were so identical, and a proper theoretical understanding can only emerge as the result of reconciliation with all intepretations historically made in relation to the Marxist project. But people here reflexively dismiss certain concepts purely based off of namesake association, just like liberals. Might as well start spewing Umberto Eco's pseudo-intellectual and deliberately-as-vague-as-a-fortune-cookie-so-as-to-be-borderline-unfalsifiable 14 points, while we're at it.
Marxism is a good thing. Leftism as it currently appoints itself is not; leftism as it currently appoints itself is hopelessly lost, anarchic, illiterate, and confused.
>>2369513You've fallen into the trap of over analyzing what modern China is exactly how revisionists set out.
It's really not that complicated. There's a national bourgeoisie, they control the state and own the means of production. It's capitalism.
The population is controlled with nationalist propaganda and power is projected across the globe using economic and militaristic means. It's imperialism.
There's nothing more to it. It's not fascism since you don't see systematic oppression of the organized proletariat by state sponsored gangs of lumpens.
>>2369513You raise some interesting points, though as a Maoist I strongly push back against your view that Maoist China was “Fascist” in any way, shape, or form, as it was clearly a Dictatorship of the Proletariat (One-Party Marxist-Leninist State) in the Socialist Mode of Production (Centrally Planned Socialist Economy), though it is fair to say that Post-Mao State Capitalist/Social Democratic China can be defined as Social Fascist according to the Maoist conception of Fascism articulated in this article
http://www.massline.org/Politics/ScottH/Fascism-MLM-Conception.pdf , which broadly defines Fascism as one of two distinct forms of the Dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie, the other being Bourgeois Liberal Democracy (ie. Multiparty Elections, Bourgeois Liberal Rights, etc.), so the fact is that any Capitalist State that is not a Bourgeois Liberal Democracy (ie. No Multiparty Elections, Bourgeois Liberal Rights, etc.) is by definition Fascist, and this sadly includes Post-Mao China since the Revisionist Deng Reforms, due to the inherent fact that Revisionism is Social Fascism as it transforms Dictatorships of the Proletariat in the Socialist Mode of Production into Dictatorships of the Bourgeoisie in the Capitalist Mode of Production which are not Bourgeois Liberal Democracies, all while maintaining Marxist-Leninist aesthetics and promoting a “Left-Leaning” State Capitalist/Social Democratic “Class Collaborationist”/Corporatist version of Capitalism, with the massive caveat that you should still Critically Support the Lesser Evil of State Capitalist/Social Democratic/Social Fascist Social Imperialist China (their is still a theoretical pathway for a Maoist faction to takeover the CCP and purge the Dengists in order to return China to the Socialist Mode of Production) against the Greater Evil of Hegemonic U$ Imperialism for the same reason you should Critically Support the Controlled Opposition Left-Liberal Democrats against the Dominant Crypto-Fascist Christian Zionist Nationalist MAGAtard Republicans, not because a Maoist like me genuinely supports these Bourgeois entities, but because they are “Lesser Evil” factions of the Global Capitalist-Imperialist System who De Facto prevent the “Greater Evil” of the Global Capitalist-Imperialist System from completely crushing the Workers and Oppressed Nations of the World before the World Maoist PPW can be successful when the Global Nuclear War breaks out, thus creating a Global USSR that will place the Workers and Oppressed Nations of the World on the Shining Path to Communism, ✊😜🇨🇳🇰🇵🇨🇺🇵🇸🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️🚀☢️!
>>2369731More directly than in the west actually since they're also leading figures in the state bureaucracy while otherwise legislation is first drafted from "industry interest groups" then handed off to the bureaucracy.
That hardly matter though as the end result is the same.
>>2369817I didn't claim that, the amount of control workers have over the state is exactly the same, basically zero.
The only "control" we have is concessions by the ruling class from strikes, mass demonstrations and other potential disruptions to the economy.
>>2369823You can claim anything, it just would be false.
>>2369843>I don't think that 'how many proles vs how many bourg in the govt are there' is a good metric for this…Yeah exactly, which is why anon is retarded for bringing it up in the first place
>more interesting question this brings up for me is how one can measure 'how communist' a country is or to what extent it has betrayed a revolution rather than simply being qualitatively like 'I feel its not communist / is communist'Did it have a revolution where the working class established state control, a DotP, in the form of a ruling communist party? Which then asserted it's goal to be socialist construction?
There you go
You can then have an argument about how effective their strategy for construction is. "How communist" feels idealist to me as it implies there is some pure ideal version of communism that communist states must then be measured against
>>2370198What do want for amrika?
I personally think an islamic dictatorship would be funny.
But you can't always get what you want (american folk wisdom)
>>2370209Communism
What’s with the faggots on this site and their utter hatred for the proletariat?
>>2370286If African nations are truly capitalist, why aren’t they developed like other late capitalist arrivals, like Thailand, South Korea, Germany, Japan, etc?
What a stupid fucking question
>Wow there are different ways to approaching capitalism!?Why do MLs actively act even stupider than they typically are when it’s time to shill for China?
>>2370303>If African nations are truly capitalist, why aren’t they developed like other late capitalist arrivals, like Thailand, South Korea, Germany, Japan, etc?Why didn't you mention any african states? The states you mentioned are vassals of the western American/NATO empire or sub imperialist states. China, like a lot of Africa was part of the developing imperial periphery, but then something changed and China began a different path of development, eclipsing all those states, even the sub imperialist or imperialist ones you mentioned. I wonder what that was?
Also
>Germany is a late arrival to capitalism Lmao alright man
>Reeeee MLs are stupid because they don't despise China ahhhh Lmao alright man
>>2370304"The state acts as the ideal capitalist that manages the common affairs of the capitalist class" - Karl Marx.
No individual capitalist controls the state. This does not mean they are subordinated by the state. Rather, managing common affairs necessarily involves giving up some autonomy . That's the "security vs freedom" argument liberal intellectuals were making in the 18th century, and they were not talking about the security and freedom of the average Joe, but their class.
>>2370315>>2370323China's state is a very effective ideal capitalist. Their "subordination of the capitalist class" (a.k.a common management of capitalist affairs) has resulted in enormous economic success for the capitalist class. And economic success of capitalist naturally results in an increase in the average living standards of the working class.
This is being falsely characterized as the achievement of socialist, rather than the achievement of capitalism by desperate pathetic leftoids who have been losing for the past 100 years and want to latch onto a capitalist power so they can feel good about themselves.
>>2370336Is that Hitler’s definition of socialism or something?
What definition of “socialism” = a bourgeoisie, wage slavery, and massive foreign investment from external capitalist firms?
>>2370315>Why didn't you mention any african states? Like the Egypt, Algeria, and Nigeria?
Do you think every country in Africa is Burkina Faso or South Sudan?
Your question
>If China is capitalist, why are there poorer capitalist countries, with different regulations?Was obviously retarded, I gave it a worthy response
>China, like a lot of Africa was part of the developing imperial periphery, but then something changed and China began a different path of development, eclipsing all those states, even the sub imperialist or imperialist ones you mentioned.So then I was right to compare it to other sovereign imperialist late arrivals like Germany?
Anymore stupid questions?
>Lmao alright manCapitalism has existed in some form since the 16th-17th Century, “Germany” didn’t even exist until the 1870s, it’s fair to say Germany was a late arrival to advanced capitalism and imperialism, this isn’t even a controversial statement among retards like MLs either
>Lmao alright manMLs are stupid because they have to twist themselves into pretzels defending capitalist development and nationalism from a “socialist” (hitlerite) perspective instead of just being normal social democrats (and having a more than .1% chance of getting favored policies passed)
>>2370342>They cannot achieve socialism, therefore they are socialistIs one of the most common ML self-owns
>>2370332>If I say it's Capitalist enough, that means it isBoooooring. I say it's an ideal socialist state , that uses capitalist development, within strict lines of party oversight and planning, to increase the productive capacity of the whole nation as a means of constructing socialism in its preliminary stages
>>2370339Well I think they're far more subordinated in China than in basically every/any other country, where they literally control and decided everything the state does for their own class interest. If you don't think that's the case then we simply disagree on the internal workings of the CPC
>>2370351>>2370354 (me)
Continuing by this same retarded logic, a communist society where a worker is arrested for stealing or killing someone is not a society that is "subordinating" workers. They are just maintaining rules that benefit the common interests of the working class as whole. The same logic applies to rules placed on the capitalist class by themselves.
>>2370349>Like the Egypt, Algeria, and Nigeria?You think the development of those states is on the level of that of China's?
>Do you think every country in Africa is Burkina Faso or South Sudan?While Africa is slowly developing, because of global imperialism and most of their position in that system they are not able to develop faster/better than the snails pace they're on right now. Luckily China is there to help m out with the B&RI and other mutual development projects in Africa
>Was obviously retarded, I gave it a worthy responseChina's development is very obviously unique on the planet right now, if you took of your China hate goggles, you'd be able to see that
>So then I was right to compare it to other sovereign imperialist late arrivals like Germany?You still think Germany was a late arrival to capitalist imperialism? I'm sorry bro but that's just really stupid
>Muh Germany Germany has had advanced capitalist development for well over a hundred years lol, China was still a semifeudal shithole until basically the 1970s. The two are simply incomparable in terms of development timeline. Like why do you think that everyone thought the revolution would happen in Germany? Because up until then it was assumed that revolution would happen in the most advanced capitalist nations first. Which Germany was considered to be, over a 100 years ago. Idk where you're getting this arrogance from, this is really basic shit
>If I say China is capitalist of the hitler variety then it must be true!! This is getting really boring pal
>>2370354>I disagree because that's false. The capitalist class is not subordinated AT ALL. Just like the capitalist class in no country on the planet is subordinated AT ALL. The capitalist class is the ruling class in all countries on the planet, no exception. But false Leftist propaganda continues to characterize capitalists managing themselves as subordination.I disagree because what you're saying is wrong. The capitalist class is subordinated to the communist party and the people FULLY, unlike the capitalist class of every other country. The capitalist class is not the ruling class in china, it is the exception. But false anticommunist/anti Chinese propaganda continues to characterize a people's democratic dictatorship as capitalist rule
>Continuing by this same retarded logic, a communist society where a worker is arrested for stealing or killing someone is not a society that is "subordinating" workers. They are just maintaining rules that benefit the common interests of the working class as whole. The same logic applies to rules placed on the capitalist class by themselves.Thank God China is not run by the bourgeoisie/capitalist class, but by a people's democratic dictatorship and so it's not making rules for itself, but is subjected to the rules of the people
>>2370391>People’s democratic dictatorship <People’s Already with the Hitlerism
<DemocraticWelcome back Karl Kautsky
<DictatorshipPretty sure a cross-class dictatorship over society is just the liberal phraseology for “dictatorship of the bourgeoisie”
You understand class collaboration and private property are written directly into China’s constitution?
>>2370374>You think the development of those states is on the level of that of China's? Capitalism is when your government is poor? America is a communist society after all?
>While Africa is slowly developing, because of global imperialism and most of their position in that system they are not able to develop faster/better than the snails pace they're on right now. Luckily China is there to help m out with the B&RI and other mutual development projects in Africa What sort of hitlerite nonsense is it when we’re finally hitting the level of opportunism where “GDP growth = COMMUNISM”?
Not gonna bother responding to the rest tbh, ngl I got bored half way and didn’t want to read the rest of the mind-numbing dengist jibber jabber
>>2370445>Waaah Hitlerite Waaah! A basic socialist term like People, as in "People's Republic" is literally like nazi germany duuuude!!You are such a fucking retarded reddit brained moron man, it's so embarrassing
>You understand class collaboration and private property are written directly into China’s constitution?omg dude, you got me bro! FUVK how could I forget they didn't check the no private property check off of the checklist!!! Shit I guess you're right man… except for the fact that of course, it's all beholden to the state and they retain the right to confiscate basically anything. Not to mention that ALL LAND (it's an important aspect of property rights, if not the most important) belongs to said state and needs to be leased from it
>inb4 muh bourgeois stateGO JOIN ANARCHISM, STOP PRETENDING TO BE A SOCIALIST
>>2370450>Capitalism is when your government is poor? America is a communist society after all?t. retard who doesn't understand historical, economic development, imperialism or how to read an argument
>HITLER HITLER HITLER, hitler is when real economic development is measured!!You are such an embarrassing retard pseud man, it's painful, like I actually feel sorry for you fr. Like the fact that we share a movement (because of your claim to it, not because of any real political position you actually occupy) makes me understand why what happened in the purges happened. It's simply impossible for you to stop being an idealist, you have literally nothing to say, nothing to contribute except anticommunism
>ngl I got boredLmao you pretentious little bitch, I know you read me telling you your precious hitler comparisons are fucking boring.
>>2370614I don’t give a fuck what China does, a rich capitalist country is as much a capitalist country as a poor one is.
The real question is, what the actual fuck does your sentimental attachment to China have to do with communism?
Don’t mistake my contempt with Dengists (the most aggressive, shameless, and overtly revisionist of the modern falsifiers) with any feelings towards China itself, I feel about as apathetic towards China as I do any other bourgeois regime.
>>2370479I feel no sentimental attachment to China at all, positive or negative
I do feel contempt for Dengists, their desperate cowardice, and spineless need to find a power structure out in the world to kneel to
Even then, I would be apathetic to dengists as well, if they were simple nationalists and not infesting every socialist space both online and increasingly in real life too, like a plague of roaches
>>2370622Like clockwork
>>2370624Claims that China isn’t communist are always rooted in genocidal racism and a general sense of white Atlanticist supremacy
>>2370633How do I propose a new flag to the NPC and CPC?
This one is just the party and the workers and yellow (gold) symbolizes prosperity.
>>2370642Are you saying the CPC is wrong when it openly proclaims to be a class collaborationist regime?
I thought heckin western honkoids need to stfu and listen to “China” (the government)?
>>2370648You don't know what class collaborationism is. You think it's when a socialist state has not abolished class society, because you are a perma idealist
>I thought heckin western honkoids need to stfu and listen to “China” (the government)?That's because you're retarded and you don't understand other people's positions
>>2370659Collaborating with the bourgeois classes and their representatives in the overthrow of the state, during the revolutionary struggle. In the context of China it would have been if the CPC and the KMT had formed a shared government or something after kicking out the japanese. It's also not something essentially incorrect, depending on the circumstances limited class collaborationism might be necessary for some time for survival or whatever, like when fighting the Japanese or when being a partisan in eastern europe during ww2
The essential thing is that this refers to the time leading up to the revolution and is a strategic assessment for the accomplishment of that revolution, not a moral one. What happens after the revolution is no longer class collaborationism, as there is no longer a collaboration in the overthrow of the state. the other classes are subjugated to the will of the new state, which has been constructed by and is ruled by the party representing the working class
>>2370674>And how did they not when they overthrew the ROC and Mao called for "the peasantry, the proletariat, the petty bourgeoisie and national and patriotic elements from the bourgeoisie to collectively operate for the building of a socialist society"
You said it yourself, they overthrew the ROC
>>2370679Italy had a communist revolution? Must've missed that
>>2370678Sorry, I didn’t post my full post, 😂🤣! Would any of my Fellow Comrades like to give an Intellectual Critique of my Dialectical Materialist Analysis of the question of Chinese Social Fascism in my Effort Post at
>>2369768 , 🤔?
>>2370688because mao and the centre was so retarded by slowly bringing deng and certain officials back. And also moderating the cultural revolution in the name of unity.
If the cultural revolution wasnt moderated then deng wouldnt have come back. Hell if mao and the centre didnt show restraint in the first place, then deng would have been killed.
>>2370692In particular, what do my Fellow Comrades think of the Maoist conception of Fascism as articulated in this article
http://www.massline.org/Politics/ScottH/Fascism-MLM-Conception.pdf , 🤔?
>>2370700>Y-YOU'RE AMERIKKKAN!!! GENETICALLY ANTICOMMUNIST!!!!!No ethnonationalist turdworldist I'm not "AmeriKKKan", I'm from the east.
>Will you come up with something new next time or start at the beginningEverything has already been said and written, it is done, its now time for you to read.
>I read!>ultra mong borbibaHave it your way
https://libcom.org/article/address-anarchists-antonio-gramsci-1920https://blackagendareport.com/western-marxism-loves-purity-and-martyrdom-not-real-revolution———–
Such a simple concept – Everything is a process, strictly speaking, there are no concrete things.
Communism, like any concept doesn't actually exist in reality.
All the purists / ultras etc. can be summed up, in the last instance, as failing to understand this.
>Being asked questions regarding this or that, he resorts to verbal contortions, to eel-wriggling: ‘I don’t think so. I don’t think in that way. I don’t think otherwise. I don’t think not. I don’t think not not.’ -Buddha
>Nowadays many people are calling for a transformation to a national, scientific and mass style. That is very good. But "transformation" means thorough change, from top to bottom and inside out. Yet some people who have not made even a slight change are calling for a transformation. I would therefore advise these comrades to begin by making just a little change before they go on to "transform", or else they will remain entangled in dogmatism and stereotyped Party writing. This can be described as having grandiose aims but puny abilities, great ambition but little talent, and it will accomplish nothing. So whoever talks glibly about "transformation to a mass style" while in fact he is stuck fast in his own small circle had better watch out, or some day one of the masses may bump into him along the road and say, "What about all this 'transformation', sir? Can I see a bit of it, please?" and he will be in a fix. If he is not just prating but sincerely wants to transform to a mass style, he must really go among the common people and learn from them, otherwise his "transformation" will remain up in the air. There are some who keep clamouring for transformation to a mass style but cannot speak three sentences in the language of the common people. It shows they are not really determined to learn from the masses. Their minds are still confined to their own small circles.https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-3/mswv3_07.htm >>2370723>Michael PoopentiLiteral succdem university student trot literature XDDD
Massive faggot, read moar.
>>2370730Suck a dick stupid college student trot
You're like a little retard throwing greek philosophers at people who study Marx
>>2370610Neither of those guys but I recall you from another thread.
I know there is no getting to you but.
>GO JOIN ANARCHISM, STOP PRETENDING TO BE A SOCIALISTWhy can't you just admit you also agree with fascist and Nazi ideas?
Shit the mods has let worse slide, at this point it couldn't hurt you to just say "Fine I admit it they had some good ideas if they didn't choose the USSR as their enemy."
>>2370741can u please explain to me how a text written to explain the people the new soviet state organization around 1920 is relavant to the topic at hand? in any sense?
you have read the book, right?
>>2370743NTA you're replying to
>Why can't you just admit you also agree with fascist and Nazi ideas?Trvthnvke, real anarchists (the authentic ones) don't deny their influence on ᴉuᴉlossnW, they embrace and analyze it.
My fellow Comrades, I feel like everyone in this thread should read this article
http://www.massline.org/Politics/ScottH/Fascism-MLM-Conception.pdf in order to fully understand the conception of Fascism in the Immortal Science of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism, the Highest Stage of Marxism, ✊😜🇨🇳🇰🇵🇨🇺🇵🇸🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️🚀☢️!
>>2370778The fact that you think leftcom / anarchist is interchangeable shows just how much you have "read".
https://www.international-communist-party.org/BasicTexts/WhatDist.htm>they are somehow popes of the movementTrve and r/Clericultraleft pilled
>>2370811No you don’t understand, he’s made himself part of the immortal tradition through the feelings of personal emotional attachment he has to countries he has never lived in, people he has never met, and movements he has never participated in
He is part of the Vanguard of Spirit!
>>2370811I am literally THE vanguard as foreseen by Lenin (PBUH).
>you are barely able to attend FALSE.
We are used to call questions of tactics – though we repeat that autonomous chapters or sections do not exist!
>>2370803Are you trying to say in snarky way that the Immortal Science of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism, the Highest Stage of Marxism, is “Fascist”, then you really need to read this article
http://www.massline.org/Politics/ScottH/Fascism-MLM-Conception.pdf to actually understand what Fascism is you Dogmato-Revisionist Infantile LeftCom Liberal Anarchist, 😂🤣✊😜🇨🇳🇰🇵🇵🇸🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️🚀☢️!
>>2370701I think its wrong to say
>For example, if fascism is the dictatorship of the “most imperialist elements of finance capital”, does that mean that fascism can only exist in imperialist countries? Does it mean that there can be no fascism in a country without a developed financial bourgeoisie? No, it doesn‟t really mean those things. Those two specific things are characteristics only of fascism in an advanced capitalist (imperialist) country. In 1933 there were two primary fascist countries to focus on: Nazi Germany and ussolini‟s Italy. There were other fascist or fascist-like regimes in Eastern Europe, Japan and elsewhereJapan was also fascist. I think fascism is specific to imperialism. But I like the framing of fascism as one side of the liberal coin. I first heard it here
https://redsails.org/really-existing-fascism/and incorporated it into my own analysis
>>2369526 , but retain the imperialism part. I think the key is how capitalism -> monopoly -> imperialism -> fascism. Even if you were to discard the imperialism qualifer I think you have to have an explanation of how capitalism becomes fascist that incorporates the falling rate of profit otherwise fascists are just really mean capitalists for idealism. You have to ground their actions in the material reproduction of their society, which is capitalist, so you have to show how their actions result from profit seeking. Primitive (re)accumulation only makes sense from a materialist perspective if you ground it in how capitalism actually works.
>>2370826MLism isn’t itself fascist, but it’s certainly a fellow traveler of fascism like all other bourgeois ideologies
MLs, liberals, and fascists can all agree on the slaughter of proletarians, the shuttering of internationalism, the necessity of capital accumulation, and the sanctity of the nation-state.
The differences ultimately come down to the differences between an absolute monarchy vs a feudal society arranged around a council of nobles vs a feudal society organized around dynastic struggles between dozens of princes within a single polity
These differences are very important to the people trapped within the system, but they’re all different permutations of feudalism
>>2370846Have you ever spoken to a leftcom without resorting to bad faith over your own attachment to places, people, and movements you have no actual connection to? What do you mean by illiterate exactly? When I see leftcoms argue with MLs, leftcoms post walls of text quotations from Marx and Lenin, and delve into deeply esoteric aspects of Marx’s thought that can only be encountered through years and years of study, while MLs spew puerile insults and pejoratives, call you
a Jew CIA, feign offense at the callous apathy of leftcoms towards MLs’ sentimental feelings, reference meme statements shat out by their favorite podcasters, and heavily rely on numerical superiority to circlejerk their way into running off the leftcom, provided the leftcom doesn’t want to argue with fifteen illiterate “history fans” simultaneously
>>2370871> >if we let the slaves have freedom they might kill us!That is quite literally how MLs rationalize half the policies of the Soviet Union, also unironically what Turd Worldists happily claim they believe people south of the equator want to do to people North of the equator
Anyway what Leftcoms actually mock MLs for is their extreme nationalist sympathies that are also aggressively grouped with particularly
ethno-nationalist sympathies
I 100% think MLs deserve immense mockery for being staunch ethno-nationalists desperately vying for the sovereignty of bourgeois dictatorships 50 odd years after the collapse of the last colonial empires
>>2370830You really need to put down the Infantile LeftCom Crack Pipe if you believe that the Pre-Khrushchev USSR and Maoist China were “Fellow Travelers of Fascism” and Capitalist States, as those are both the purest examples of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat and the Socialist Mode of Production which have ever here to forth existed (especially Maoist China during the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution), though it is fair to say that both degenerated into State Capitalist/Social Democratic Social Fascism and Social Imperialism once the Khrushchevite/Dengist Revisionists seized power in 1953 and 1976, respectively, but to say they always were that is Anti-Communist Bourgeois Propaganda, 😂🤣✊😜🇨🇳🇰🇵🇵🇸🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️🚀☢️!
>>2370828Thanks for the Intellectual Response Conrade, but I unfortunately have to disagree and would kindly advise you to read the whole article more thoroughly, as the Author clearly articulated why it is a very flawed assumption to make Imperialism a prerequisite for Fascism (itself rooted in the infantile Idealistc belief that Fascism is only Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, with nothing else meeting the definition), as it takes away from the fact that Fascism is one of two distinct forms of Bourgeois Dictatorship (the other being Bourgeois Liberal Democracy), which can occur in any Capitalist State, once the Bourgeoisie feels sufficiently threatened enough by its Working Class to remove the phony Mask of Bourgeois Liberal Democracy in order to both restore the Rate of Profit and secure the Bourgeois Dictatorship, along with the fact that Modern Revisionism (both Khrushchevite and Dengist) is Social Fascism, as it transforms Dictatorships of the Proletariat in the Socialist Mode of Production into Dictatorships of the Bourgeoisie in the Capitalist Mode of Production which are not Bourgeois Liberal Democracies, all while maintaining Marxist-Leninist aesthetics and promoting a “Left-Leaning” State Capitalist/Social Democratic “Class Collaborationist”/Corporatist version of Capitalism, 😂🤣✊😜🇨🇳🇰🇵🇵🇸🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️🚀☢️!
>>2370871>>2370877The noble Mexican population, having become Catholic under the merciless terror of the Spanish invaders, would show that they have remained “primitive” by not being terrified and horrified of death.
These peoples are, however, the heirs of a civilization misunderstood by Christians then and now and transmitted from ancient communism. Insipid modern individualism can only be flabbergasted by it, especially in this dull text where we read that graves are unmarked and that dishes are prepared even for those dead who no one remembers. True “unknown dead,” not because a sluggish, demagogic rhetoric says so but through the powerful simplicity of a life which is of the species and for the species, eternal like nature and not like a stupid swarm of souls wandering in the “beyond” for whose development the experiences of the dead, the living, and the as yet unborn are valid, in an historical sequence whose unfolding is not mourning but joy in all the moments of the material cycle.
>>2370881Would you at least be open minded enough to read this article
http://www.massline.org/Politics/ScottH/Fascism-MLM-Conception.pdf and analyze the authors argument for yourself, instead of posting ad hominems, 🤔?
>>2370907Not really mate, no
I might if you would be willing to read Istvan Meszaros, are you?
I just have no interest in Maoists personal apologetics for their own movement, don’t see what makes their outlook more meaningful than any other socialist’s outlook, used to read Maoist publications anyway before I dismantled my own moralism and idealism, and honestly feel like this would be like me reading Mein Kampf to get or Julius Evola to get a fascist’s direct POV which I have no actual interest in
Maybe summarize their points?
>>2370711The weimar republic and nazi germany were actually not the same, I'm so sorry, but if you look at it with any semblance of materialism you would notice that the Nazi's actually overthrew the Weimar republic and installed a new form of government
>>2370712>Actually internal struggles for the fate of the nation are the same thing as inter imperialist conflicts between several imperialist powersIm sorry but you might be permanently retarded
>>2370714>The struggle of the Chinese working class is bourgeois because… it just is, I asserted it as such therefor it is!ngmi
>>2370715Did I claim ᴉuᴉlossnW did not proclaim himself to be a socialist at some point in his life? I said he never proclaimed a socialist revolution. You can quote mine all you want you will never be able to find a quote where he proclaims such a thing. In fact, he explicitly argued against this, you would know this if you had even a modicum of materialist analysis and you weren't just an idealist working with an entirely idealistic conception of world history
>>2370926I hear the Pentagon calls them the N.W.A
I don't know what their "leftcom" hangers-on call them
>>2370959Are these the intelligent walls of texts MLs claim to write
Also
>Sheer impotenceLmao
Try it faggot
>>2370955>Okay but what about this bourgeois revolution/slave rebellion I like?What about it? What does it have to do with communism?
>>2370947I see no contradiction in that image at all, it’s pretty blatantly how MLs understand socialism
>>2370932First of all peasanty is part of the working class, unless you dont think they provide productive labor?
Secondly, the Communist Party of China is the party of the Peasants and Proletariat, the national bourgeoisie and the petit bourgeoisie and subjugated to it and do not rule it
>>2370935>all bourgeois states are the same>Im not an idealist/essentialist thoAre you not embarrassed with these arguments?
>>2370957>(You)s on an anonymous message board mean anything substantial other then who gets triggeredEmbarrassing
>>2370996So they rule it, they're not subjugated to it.
>proletarian managersAs if their livelihood depend on a source of income from manual work. They are parasites.
>>2370995>muh eastern imperialismDamn dude does china run the IMF? does China run the word bank? Does China invade other counties for capital advancement? Is the Yuan the world reserve currency? Does china have a monopolistic position in the world capitalist system?
First Im hearing about it
>>2371012>It doesn't, you would know this if you weren't an idealist retardNot the CPC, the NPC.
The foreign policies from the GESICC - war on drugs pushed by Nixon and spread by NGOs and bourgeoisie governments were adapted and ratified by the NPC and Jiang Zemin on the 31st Meeting of the Standing Committee of the Tenth National Peoples Congress of the Peoples Republic of China on December 29 2007. This was an obvious case of lobbying, there was no debate surrounding the policies accepted and no research provided to back up the policies, they were forced by the UNODC and instigated by the US.
>>2371020And it still hasn't been repealed from law lmao.
So much for Xi being "the left wing turn of the CPC". Jiang Zemin and his retarded fans still continue the push.
>>2371019>Not the CPC, the NPCHuh? what are you referring to? Because the only party ruling china is called the communist party of China. Are you making up things in your head again and pretending they're reality?
>some bullshit thing from 2007 about drugsLmao alright man, they definitely got the lobby to push some thing about weed, this proves there's bourgeois lobbying in China. Because the bourgeois hate weed or something lol
>>2371051Sorry I thought you were doing a meme. How do you distinguish the NPC from the CPC? Why is that distinction relevant?
>>2371053Alright, I guess if they just "love" to do that, that's that then
>>2371043All labor is productive ya fuckin retard, that has literally nothing to do with whether you are working class or not 😂😂😂
Peasants do not sell their labor power, and they own their own Means of Production, read Marx unironically, holy shit
>>2371083The NPC is formally the highest organ of state power in the People's Republic of China, not the CPC.
It is absolutely relevant because it illustrates the structure of power in China.
The CPC cannot instigate change in its own without falling out of the NPC's legislature, it is confined to the NPC along with the rest of the parties. The NPC's electorates function differently from the CPC.
>>2371084>All labor is productiveNo its not
>Peasants do not sell their labor power, and they own their own Means of ProductionNo they dont
>>2371104No it isn't. The CPC is confined to the legislature passed by the NPC, not vice versa.
I suggest watching a Bay Area415 video, he explains the entire system.
>>2371107Especially this segment on 9:05
this is ultimately what defines the NPC composition, it is not solely filled by the CPC, the CPC participates in the NPC, the NPC holds the power, the CPC leads as long as it is instigated to.
>>2369526Oh a good post how rare
>>2370828And whatever happened to redsails.org
They haven't published / posted / updated in quite some time
>>2371098Peasants, by and large, don't own their own means of production retard, what the fuck are you talking about? Did I say peasants and proletarians are indistinguishable?
>>2371115Jesus Christ dude, the relevant part of this video is literally just a quote from that article 2 screenshot you posted, which is just a line from the constitution. How does this differentiate anything?? In practice the NPC serves as an organ of the CPC, the vast majority of delegates of the NPC are party members. While it serves theoretically as the highest body of state power, it is pretty much beholden to the CPC in all practical aspects
Your video, nor any argument you've made, does not explain the functional difference between the NPC and the CPC
>>2371130> In practice the NPC serves as an organ of the CPCYou are literally parroting western propaganda who call the NPC a "rubber stamp parliament" of the CPC
https://www.france24.com/en/20190305-chinas-rubber-stamp-parliament-glancehttps://www.voanews.com/a/former-delegates-call-china-s-people-s-congresses-rubber-stamps-/7518845.htmlhttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/mar/05/china-two-sessions-meeting-npc-cppcc-political-gathering-beijingNo joke, you claim to be defending China but are literally parroting the same lie that the NPC is subservient to the CPC, when the literal constitution of China tells you otherwise.
>>2371137Im not saying they're just a rubber stamp committee. Im saying there's no functional differentiation between the functioning of the NPC and the CPC. They operate in accordance with each other, while firmly politically consolidated by the communist party. This does not mean they're merely a rubber stamp committee
>Muh constitutionPerma idealist confirmed
>>2371149>does not explain the functional difference between the NPC and the CPCThe functional difference is that the CPC does not pass legislature, the electoral pool that composes the NPC is not the same as the CPC's inner composition. The CPC does not pass or approve the laws or legislature themselves. There is a lot more, you obviously don't know shit about the governance of China to write "there is no functional differentiation" and considering you literally learned about the NPC less than an hour ago you are completely unfit to write on the matter.
>Perma idealist confirmedYou reject the constitution of China while claiming to defend it.
>>2371130> Peasants, by and large, don't own their own means of production retard, what the fuck are you talking about? Did I say peasants and proletarians are indistinguishable?Do you also think peasant is synonymous with serf, you retarded fuck?
<No how dare you critique my pre-capitalist backwards class!And you people mock anarchists?
This is literally the invariant line of Proudhon lmao
>>2371152What other party or political organization has the influence over the NPC that the CPC has? Please elucidate your profound knowledge of the internal workings of the Chinese state and present these other major influence groups that are somehow not beholden to the CPC
>defending le constitutionWhen did I claim to defend the Chinese constriction?
>>2371160>Do you also think peasant is synonymous with serfDo peasants by and large own their own means of production yes or no?
>Mocking le classWho cares honestly? Whose talking about mocking anything? Why are you such a moralist?
>>2371163>What other party or political organization has the influence over the NPC that the CPC has?The influence over the NPC comes from deputies who are elected from 35 electoral units according to the law. These units include people's congresses of provinces, autonomous regions, municipalities directly under the central government, the servicemen congress of the People's Liberation Army, the deputy election council of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region, the deputy election council of the Macao Special Administrative Region and the Taiwan compatriots' consultation election council. Each congress is elected for a term of five years.
>When did I claim to defend the Chinese constriction?You claim to defend China as it is but know little about its system of governance and outright neglect its constitution.
>>2371169Do peasants by and large own their own means of production yes or no?
I mean they own their equipment, fields and tools so yes they own them
>>2371178>The influence over the NPC comes from deputies who are elected from 35 electoral units according to the law. These units include people's congresses of provinces, autonomous regions, municipalities directly under the central government, the servicemen congress of the People's Liberation Army, the deputy election council of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region, the deputy election council of the Macao Special Administrative Region and the Taiwan compatriots' consultation election councilAll of which are primarily members of…..? Which party….? c'mon now, you can say it!
>You claim to defend China as it is but know little about its system of governance and outright neglect its constitution.I don't "defend" a constitution. I defend the Chinese state and the communist party of China. You have yet to demonstrate how this difference between the NCP and the CPC is significant in any practical, functional way regarding what we were talking about, namely class collaborationism and Chinese supposed fascisms lol, beyond vague gestures at the constitution, as if that proves anything beyond your idealistic assertions that words inform reality
>>2371169Nah it’s more, why would you mock anarchists, when you believe exactly what Proudhon did to a T?
Other than, I guess you’re also an orientalist on top of it?
Has nothing to do with moralism, anarchism is the movement of the peasantry and small holders, left wing petit bourgeois, and craftsmen, Marxism is the movement of the proletariat
>>2371202>All of which are primarily members of…..? Which party….? c'mon now, you can say it!That depends on when, I'd say during Jiang Zemin's time they were aligned with the Demopublican party of the US in spite of being CPC in name - their actions proved otherwise.
>I don't "defend" a constitution. I defend the Chinese stateWhich is defined by a…..? What legislature….? c'mon now, you can say it!
>You have yet to demonstrate how this difference between the NCP and the CPC is significant in any practical, functional way I don't have to babysit you on the governance of China, even more so considering you literally learned about the NPC just over an hour ago
>>2371039>>Not the CPC, the NPC>Huh? what are you referring to? Because the only party ruling china is called the communist party of China. Are you making up things in your head again and pretending they're reality?>namely class collaborationism and Chinese supposed fascisms lolDerailing, this is about the foreign influence within the NPC.
>>2371211Hello there Iraqi leftcom.
You gonna create another strawman?
Yawn.
>>2371221It makes me feel nothing
Do Dengoids think people are saying China is a capitalist country…because they feel attached to a different capitalist country?
Why is it so hard for you….creatures…to argue in good faith?
Do you need to be, like, actually mentally disabled to think China is communist? Are you an American yourself by any chance? I know Americans, among all people, have the wackiest (most incoherent) definition of communism generally
>>2371226>How does National Chauvinism stop the bourgeousie from buying out your country?Its more concerned with domestic matters and growth than international (foreign) matters. For it to buy out a country it has to see it as profitable for itself.
>Do you think China is a hivemind?Absolutely, a very collectivist patsoc society. I wish the hivemind would open its hivemindussy and engulf us, but it won't even do away with its antagonistic elements (clandestine christian garbage in secrecy and the islamic uyghurs) since the hive is too concerned with itself.
>>2371240Sorry, I’m an adult, kiddo
>>2371244If you’re also black and legit use a foreign government you don’t live under and will never meet as a surrogate father that’s genuinely the funniest fucking thing I’ve seen on this site
>t. Black dude that actually has a father >>2371247Damn
China just opened rhodesia 2.0 😔
>>2371215>Jiang ZeminI agree that the Jiang was a bit of a US simp and it doesn't reflect well on the collective decision making as a whole at the time, but it hardly proves Bourgeois control of the party. He did a reasonable enough job transitioning to the current state of things, despite his enhancement of capitalist reform
>Which is defined by a…..? What legislature….? c'mon now, you can say it! Which is primarily influenced by and beholden to…? Which Party…? We can go around in circles all day. Almost like they're functionally indistinguishable
>I don't have to babysit you on the governance of China, even more so considering you literally learned about the NPC just over an hour agoI don't know the functional difference between the US congress and senate either, doesn't mean I can't draw conclusions about the class character, ideological position and interests of the US gov
>Derailing, this is about the foreign influence within the NPCThe foreign influence to ban drugs n shit in 2007? That foreign influence? Got anything like that since Jiang?
>>2371256This, the chinese hivemind tries to build a second rhodesia in all of africa (cos thats where they invest) but they fail to do it like team rocket
Those chinese train stations are staring at me with their dengist energy, oh bros im so scared 🤣
>>2371260>Jiang was a bit of a US simpThis was the whole point.
>but it hardly proves Bourgeois control of the party.That's not what I'm claiming at all.
>The foreign influence to ban drugs n shit in 2007? That foreign influence? Got anything like that since Jiang?There may be, but the question is why hasn't it been reverted or investigated? This is not a policy started or instigated by China, the GESICC started in the US, was spread by the UNODC and continues in China.
>>2371264Tigrayans got butchered and had their limbs amputated only for China to pussy out and let them get fucked by Ethiopian porkies
For all the wealth it has, it barely does shit to give to those who need it in common interest
>>2371268>This was the whole point.You're inflating Jiang's influence or his significance. People in China like him, but he's a transitionary figure, he's seen as like a sort of funny kind old man who was maybe a bit naïve, but wanted what's best for China (this personalizes Chinese sentiment of the whole era) But now they left that shit behind with the new era
>That's not what I'm claiming at all.Then what are you claiming? What is the point of this argument?
>There may be, but the question is why hasn't it been reverted or investigated? This is not a policy started or instigated by China, the GESICC started in the US, was spread by the UNODC and continues in ChinaI mean, there's plenty of bourgeois influence in the party. It ain't like it's all hardliners in there. But I think primarily, it's just because no one cares, there's not enough druggies in China to make a big fuss about it
>>2371284So china should invade the west?
leftcom to dengist pipeline is real
>>2371282Leftcoms be like:
>The inequities of capitalism cannot be ended unless capitalism has been ended, so, uhh, let’s end it lolMLs respond like:
<But have you considered GDP line go up, atrocity porn, starving Africans? >>2371309People like a food and public infrastructure, yea.
Bahahaha 😂
>>2371318This so much this
Don't attack da police
Don't join protests
>>2371321this but unironically
>>2371325true so let's go on a parade where we accomplish nothing, do nothing except get beaten up by cops for no gain, it'll definitely be the revolution on the next time guys, just you wait
>>2371318<several historical revolutions that affected 100s of millions of lives and changed world history<100 million ML members of the communist party of china currently that actively govern the main antagonist of US global imperialism>Heh but you do street parades, unlike me who does literally less than nothingFucking cope if I ever saw it
>>2371320>muh individualism, you as individual board posters are le not le revolutionaryFantastic analysis, truly the intellectual might of the leftcom vanguard is unequalled in history
>>2371333>where are the MLs now?<100 million ML members of the communist party of china currently that actively govern the main antagonist of US global imperialismCan you not read?
>in history books and in the memories of old, dying men, and their legacies are parading college studentsThe projection is crazy
>>2371336>>in history books and in the memories of old, dying men, and their legacies are parading college studentsThe projection is crazy
is it? it's a fact, and i'm not gonna respond to your point about china since they are not mls
>>2371337so in dying old men and history books, got it
>>2371338Proles are winning.
You are losing. 🤣
>>2371339>but a couple hours later reading theory of le dead white man is bad!?insane projection, cite one example of this
>>2371340i'll believe it when i see it
>>2371338>is it?The fact that you're even asking me this lol
> since they are not mlsLmaoooooooooo, you are actually retarded
>>2371405Wrong general
also stagnant lines, CUCKTIN PUSH HARDER COME ON
>>2370984>>(You)s on an anonymous message board mean anything substantial other then who gets triggeredkinda weird to say that in response to a post responding to exactly that
>>2370956its pretty obvious what is going on when the board has 300 replies total in 24 hours for multiple days and suddenly 300 replies just itt in one morning
>>2370893>dont you have school on fridays?oh yeah summer
>>2370957>on weekdays between 9:00 and 5:00 ESTwhere did everyone go? is it bedtime in langley already?
>>2369513That's at least a coherent position.
I completely disagree with it though to the point I won't bother arguing with you. I don't bother with all people who take any nationalist propaganda at face value.
>>2371739In my mind, socialism is pure, innocent, fragile even, but most of all, perfect.
These so called "socialisms" I hear about are ALL unpure, guilty, solid, and unperfect.
WTF is wrong with these """SOCIALISTS?"""
Am I going crazy or is the world around me not fitting my beliefs?!
>>2371746>Revolution will happen in chynah first.Delulu, literally "not happening"-tier. The working class in Chynah had its real wages QUADRUPLED the last 20 years.
You westoids be projecting and cray-cray.
>>2371766Not only that but it actively builds socialism under a system allows for a supervise growth of market productivity in order to create the material conditions necessary while still maintaining party control so as to not end up with a burgeoise class reappearing.
Which is not the same with the fascist corporatist model which allowed the worker to be subjugated by the bourgeois as long as it served the state’s interest but as to subordinate the petite property owners to the workers.
>But the transformation, either into joint-stock companies, or into state ownership, does not do away with the capitalistic nature of the productive forces. In the joint-stock companies this is obvious. And the modern state, again, is only the organisation that bourgeois society takes on in order to support the general external conditions of the capitalist mode of production against the encroachments as well of the workers as of individual capitalists. The modern state, no matter what its form, is essentially a capitalist machine, the state of the capitalists, the ideal personification of the total national capital. The more it proceeds to the taking over of productive forces, the more does it actually become the national capitalist, the more citizens does it exploit. The workers remain wage-workers — proletarians. The capitalist relation is not done away with. It is rather brought to a head. But, brought to a head, it topples over. State ownership of the productive forces is not the solution of the conflict, but concealed within it are the technical conditions that form the elements of that solution.
>>2371808>The workers remain wage-workers — proletarians. The capitalist relation is not done away with.Wrong. This does not apply because there are no capitalists in Communist China.
Wages under the socialist system are fundamentally different from wages under the capitalist system. Under the capitalist system, labor power is a commodity. Wages are incomes for the sale of labor power. They embody the relations between the employer and the employee, between the exploiter and the exploited, existing between the capitalist and the worker. Under the socialist system, workers are masters of the state and the enterprises. Labor power is not a commodity. It cannot be sold to themselves. Wages are no longer a transformation of the value or price of labor power. They are a form of state distribution of personal consumer goods according to the principle of “from each according to his ability, to each according to his labor.”
>>2371880>4) Class struggle no longer constitutes the principal contradiction after the exploiters have been eliminated as classes. However, owing to certain domestic factors and influences from abroad, class struggle will continue to exist within certain limits for a long time to come and may even grow acute under certain conditions. It is necessary to oppose both the view that the scope of class struggle must be enlarged and the view that it has died out. It is imperative to maintain a high level of vigilance and conduct effective struggle against all those who are hostile to socialism and try to sabotage it in the political, economic, ideological and cultural fields and in community life. We must correctly understand that there are diverse social contradictions in Chinese society which do not fall within the scope of class struggle and that methods other than class struggle must be used for their appropriate resolution. Otherwise, social stability and unity will be jeopardized. We must unswervingly unite all forces that can be united with and consolidate and expand the patriotic united front.So it's saying:
>exploiters have been eliminated as classes.but
< class struggle will continue to exist within certain limits for a long time to comeWho are the classes that are struggling with each other?
>>2371884You are a bad faith actor, a well-poisoner, a paid or unpaid glowie, a less-than-a-comrade, a literal scum, a skank, a nobody.
I don't have to answer your pretence questions, I only have to know that you are my class enemy.
>Dengists have no choice but to blatantly, aggressively lie, in a move that makes it very clear, to everyone, and themselves, that they know they stand in defense of the indefensible
And here I do proudly say, every last Dengist should have their brains splattered on the wall, and if their families would object, they should be executed as well :)
Anyone that resorts to absurd, and obvious lies, has asserted themselves as a military target, and is now admissible for immediate execution
Never forget, if a communist revolution were to occur, dengist heads would be piled in a town square 🫣
>>2371875In China, what we typically call the “bourgeoisie” doesn’t really exist in the classical sense.
They are more or less state-supervised entrepreneurial stratum that:
Operates on a license.
And have no formal power over the state apparatus,unlike the western capitalist countries that actively lobby the government to pass policies that further satisfy their class interest
In short They do not own land (bc it is state or collective-owned and they basically have a limited license of using that urban land for a business or smth for like 30 to 70 years I think ),
Their firms can be regulated, split, or nationalized,
Their wealth can and it is curbed (e.g. under Xi’s “common prosperity” drive),
And they can be purged (e.g. Jack Ma, tech crackdown).
>>2371979nobody said communism
and in the governance of china it said it would be 2049
>>2371975Communism is the stage of historical development in which the productive forces have reached such a level that class distinctions dissolve, the state becomes obsolete, and society organizes itself through stateless, classless, communal ownership of the means of production
We still have a long road until then, as for the next stage of socialism I doubt we would see it in this century, maybe in the early 22nd century if AI and productive forces have advanced to the point that the market structure becomes obsolete
>>2371808>This solution can only consist in the practical recognition of the social nature of the modern forces of production, and therefore in the harmonizing with the socialized character of the means of production. > But, with the taking over by society of the productive forces, the social character of the means of production and of the products will be utilized by the producers with a perfect understanding of its nature, and instead of being a source of disturbance and periodical collapse, will become the most powerful lever of production itself. >Then the capitalist mode of appropriation, in which the product enslaves first the producer, and then the appropriator, is replaced by the mode of appropriation of the products that is based upon the nature of the modern means of production; upon the one hand, direct social appropriation, as means to the maintenance and extension of production — on the other, direct individual appropriation, as means of subsistence and of enjoyment. >Whilst the capitalist mode of production more and more completely transforms the great majority of the population into proletarians, it creates the power which, under penalty of its own destruction, is forced to accomplish this revolution. Whilst it forces on more and more of the transformation of the vast means of production, already socialized, into State property, it shows itself the way to accomplishing this revolution. The proletariat seizes political power and turns the means of production into State property.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/ch03.htm Unique IPs: 73