It's the Durham Miners' Gala this Saturday, are you going? Local Reform Cllrs are fucking furious because they aren't being invited.
The body was too short or empty. The body was too short or empty. Flood detected.
561 posts and 101 image replies omitted.>>2391174>because unlike the palestinians they are the products of a centuries long invasion of the regionThat’s the story of basically everywhere, it’s always for arbitrary reasons that one group that exists on some land for hundreds of years are justified to call it their homes and another group on another bit of land isn’t justified and are just invaders regardless of how many centuries they’ve lived there.
The arbitrary reason here is that you want Northern Ireland, you don’t want Palestine.
>>2391283>Nationalism is weird in general, imagine getting that fucking worked up over lines drawn by whoeverthefuck
<Most were graduates of the 1968 university upheavals in the West. We found it very amusing that they honestly believed they were making a 'revolution' if they undressed in public, seized a university building, or shouted an obscenity at bureaucrats. I was initially opposed and refused to talk to them, even though some believed in violent revolution, because I didn't want to be another experimental 'guinea-pig' to Westerners.
<I finally relented and I am glad I did. I hadn't met Western 'revolutionaries' before. It turned out they represented an unfamiliar cultural rather than a political phenomenon.
<Some seemed to have read the history political literature of the left, but most regarded the Marxist-Leninist leaders disdainfully, with the exception of the 'Young Marx, who held some sort of fascination for revolution.
<Some Americans were quite serious and believed in the historic mission of the working class and were making plants to integrate themselves with the masses.
<What astonished us most about this group was that they were opposed to nationalism, a doctrine we hold dearly as a colonized and dissipated people. Some believed in violence for the hell of it and in students as revolutionary agents of history. But the majority were inclined towards guerrilla theatre as a means of 'making revolution. They performed a little for us.
<As they were departing I was rather struck by a French anarchist student who proclaimed 'Let chaos reign' and by a German who echoed the same sentiment.
<I exclaimed that the Palestinian people were an example of a society in chaos without authority and leadership, which as a result, was left at the mercy of the Zionist oppressor.
<I asked them what could they prescribe for us in order to overcome our kind of alienation'-beards, long hair, and toy guns?
<They merely paused, they smiled, they reflected, they inhaled and passed their joints on in universal wonder. >>2391323On the other hand their plight is caused by Zionists and their desire to arbitrarily draw lines on the map to create a nation to be nationalistic about. Opposing that is obviously correct but I don’t see how
>Drawing lines is good when I do itis somehow a radical freedom fighting concept that those western lefties have pretentiously not seen
>>2391332I was subtley calling you a long haired faggot
Maybe read some Marxism to understand the historic role of nations, their development and ultimate dissipation once they've developed to their fullest extent instead of shilling for a world of rootless victims of capital drifting from one economic zone to the next with no social bonds for the exigencies of capital like the Ten Kingdoms the Club Of Rome wants
<An international movement of the proletariat is possible only among independent nations. Engels - Nationalism, Internationalism and the Polish Question
Stalin - Marxism and the National and Colonial Question
Stalin - Marxism And The National Question
Stalin - REPORT ON THE NATIONAL QUESTION
Stalin - THE OCTOBER REVOLUTION AND THE NATIONAL QUESTION
Stalin - Leninism and the National Question
Stalin - The National Question Once Again
Alliance-ML The Theory of a 'Black Nation'
Communist Party of Britain - Marxist-Leninist - Britain: One Nation, One Culture
>>2391335Keyword: Historic
Like I said, opposing people trying to redraw borders is based, what isn’t based is being like
>its ackshually the lines that matter most in this struggle you fucken western wimpsThat’s actually rather cringe because once you’ve successfully opposed the redrawing of borders you’ve also provided the impetus for bourgeois nationalism which involves the kind of
>now *I* want to redraw the bordersAttitude that Irish anon demonstrates for us so kindly and demonstrated historically by all kinds of border conflicts and nationalist fractures that erupted in the aftermath of collapsing European empires.
>>2391350>i want ireland to be unifiedAnd that is against the will of the people who live in Northern Ireland, what is impossible for you to comprehend is that historic wrongs don’t give you carte blanche to say “I’m not really redrawing the borders for nationalism sake, I’m just righting a historic wrong” which is the excuse for redrawing borders like 80% of the time you fucken jizz jacuzzi
I know you don’t *think* you want forced expulsion of people as part of that, but you’ve already reasoned to yourself that it wouldn’t be unjustified if they’re actually British and they’d probably be happier off in the British part of Britain as a part of refusing to accept that throughout violence and democracy alike, those people don’t want to leave any more than the Palestinians do and nothing you can think of will change the reality that you want forced redrawing of borders and you don’t necessarily think you need the permission of people you’d be redrawing the lines around.
>>2391365>And that is against the will of the people who live in Northern Irelandno it isn't, the populace in northern ireland are generally apathetic but most don't reject unity with the republic
>what is impossible for you to comprehend is that historic wrongs don’t give you carte blanche to say “I’m not really redrawing the borders for nationalism sake, I’m just righting a historic wrong” which is the excuse for redrawing borders like 80% of the time you fucken jizz jacuzziwhen an artificial division is imposed because a bunch of LARPing foreigners decided they're the trve brits and proceeded to make this everyone else's problem, that's why they need to accept that they are irish, not british, but irish
>I know you don’t *think* you want forced expulsion of people as part of that, but you’ve already reasoned to yourself that it wouldn’t be unjustified if they’re actually British and they’d probably be happier off in the British part of Britain as a part of refusing to accept that throughout violence and democracy alike, those people don’t want to leave any more than the Palestinians do and nothing you can think of will change the reality that you want forced redrawing of borders and you don’t necessarily think you need the permission of people you’d be redrawing the lines around.they didn't ask for permission before they invaded our country, to make your comparisons to the palestinians is supposed to make me care for the unionists who bombed funerals, the unionists who killed more civilians than any other side in the troubles, the reality is that when you proceed to commit the vast majority of violence during a period, have no remorse for it whatsoever, and expect us to accept the occupation they support, then fuck off if you want to, if they consider themselves to be trve brits, then why do they have to live in another country they took without attempting to share it with us? if they could they would turn the rest of ireland into what they've made of northern ireland
>>2391385Well thanks for outing yourself with your contempt for the people, perhaps you’re correct that London doesn’t care about Northern Ireland but there is absolutely no guarantee that Dublin will either in a unified Ireland, with people like you wanting to re-litigate the potato famine and the troubles with them, while currently Belfast has some form of self governance that you’re conveniently ignoring will have to be given up if they were to just “accept being Irish” and being reduced to a few seats in Irish parliament.
I mean isn’t that really the sum total of this seething, that some people have enough self-governance to disagree with you on “your” island.
>>2391413>Well thanks for outing yourself with your contempt for the peopleyou have infinitely more contempt for us, the population of ireland did not consent to their island being partitioned in 1922, yet it happened anyway, and yes they need to accept being irish, that is the actual solution to this, because they either accept that they're irish or we pay them to leave for britain, and we are not "relitigating the potato famine and troubles" what we are doing is simple, recognizing that they invaded this country, and that they either need to accept this fact and live alongside us, rather than being segregated and against us, with your immaculate logic, we should support any form of segregation, since it is occasionally popular and to suggest anything would be to cleanse a region of that population, do you not see how you are either stupid, or disingenious with claiming this sort of nonsense?
>>2391454the thing is that i agree, the problem is that they do not, i have to keep emphasizing that the unionists do not just want ireland separated, if they became something like canada and retained their status as under britain but autonomous, i would be fine with that, the problem starts when they also want to effectively segregate northern ireland and implement what once amounted to apartheid, the unionists do not deserve special treatment just because they did not commit genocide themselves, the question is actually quite simple, and it's one you keep ignoring, do you want a segregated ireland divided artificially, or do you want a united ireland that cares little for these disputes and actually tries to keep this in order? because that's the actual choice, and anyone who tells you otherwise is a liar
>>2391442They don't even
really need to accept being Irish. Plenty of British people live in Ireland and remain British, plenty of Europeans live in Britain and consider themselves whatever country they've come from. The country you live in not matching up with your ethnic/cultural identity is fairly common.
>>2391454I think that's because discussions tend to want to drift back to a high brow historical root cause because it's less likely to devolve into name calling than confronting the fact that some of the people involved are just stupid wankers, people you'd instinctively side against even if they were in the right on the history. That they aren't is a pleasant coincidence.
I mean really, really glibly: all the major nationalist parties have better fiscal policy and better views on social issues than all the major unionist parties. If you split the difference on all the history, there's still clearly a better side, and it's unfortunate that the better side is unable to do anything on bread-and-butter policy because there's a wanker veto.
I mean, it's better than the 1920-60s when the wankers had their own gerrymandered apartheid parliament and Britain took a hands-off not-my-problem approach, but it's still not ideal.
>>2391472In fairness, they're about evenly matched with the difference going to the Alliance. The optimum outcome would be some kind of nationalist-alliance coalition, which would probably be fine because the Alliance would have the votes to stop them declaring the pope king or whatever.
>>2391645Again, it’s really unlikely that a single Palestinian state that integrates Israelis is going to be happy ever after because the now former Israelis will still have their greater wealth, greater living standards, greater connections to the outside world and they’d still end up as the elite within Palestinian society.
Sooner or later you’re going to realise that no one actually means it when they’re offering the other side to back down and be shown mercy and their refusal means they’re unreasonable and deserving of violence
>>2391350>i want ireland to be unifiedWhat's your plan for how to do this?
Because despite all the huffing and puffing for decades, no one has suggested a practical plan for how unification will work. What will happen with pensions? Will people in the north want to lose the NHS?
>>2388729>It needs really to be more like the Dems tbh. A coalition of other left wing parties and groups that all agree on a largely material bread and butter issues (economy/immigration), then allow free voting on whatever social issues or whatever, leadership of the party should basically never comment on social issues as well, take the Anthony Albanese route. Are you referring to wanting to be more like American Democrats?
If so, just remember that they're mainly liberal left.
They're not true left at all.
Also:
>The overwhelming majority of British people are homeowners. Not among us young people yes, but most of the country aren't youth and youth voters are notoriously unreliable support base because most will grow into Libdem/Centrist types as they move into their 40s.That's like saying older people are unreliable voters for right wing parties because they were liberal before age forty.
Also, consider that leftism is generally unpopular to begin with. Young people are your only demographic.
>>2388719The left doesn't even talk to University educated people on average.
Most college/University educated people aren't ivory tower idealists.
>Still don't particularly like dealing with this Demographic through as a base. I will always from my experience, view them as unreliable. Another is they are centralized too much into little pockets, and Uni itself is it's own form of brainwashing. If you are able to get regular normies on board, then Uni students will follow."Normies" have their own brainwashing as well.
A lot of conspiracy theories going around.
>I generally agree, but if material circumstances stablize, then the left is absolutely fucked and will lose their base. Like it or not, the average University educated person comes out on average a million pounds better off than the non-Uni educated. I've watched friend after friend after friend over the years, lose all their Socialist/left wing values and move on to become a centrist, if not a Wet tory, as they moved into better paying jobs and home ownership. Even watched friends who were Hardcore Environmentalists, become "Actually fracking is great and environmentally safe and clean coal is the future" when they got jobs basically greenwashing mining and such operations.So you care more about your precious anti-idpol leftist party getting permanent members than making material conditions better for everyone.
Why am I not surprised?
>then the entire left pivoted from a winning narrative into "um, kids actually have fully formed self identity and we should medicalize that and saying otherwise is fascism despite in all other psychology we don't even identify such disorders until early adulthood for obvious fucking reasonsChildren do have fully formed self identity, it's just that they're not allowed any autonomy.
Also, psychology is still a relatively new phenomenon.
There are any psychological disorders that one gets in youth and outgrow, others that come in with age.
>Not the 1970s anymore. People like that are stealing from a struggling, overleveraged fund that is designed for severely disabled people, not LARPing spoonies who seemingly make up a huge portion of Zoomers, landlords and fucking boomers. Why do you have such a hate boner for boomers and zoomers? Are you millennial or something?
>>2391657This was true of White South Africans as well, and despite all the /pol/ bleating they've not had it so bad on the whole. You might point out that they all left, but they weren't expelled.
Or perhaps Bantustans were the way to go after all. Mandela was insincere and actually, it's white genocide for the rich to realize they'd rather emigrate than pay tax in a multinational state.
>>2391749grotesque equivocation.
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