It's the Durham Miners' Gala this Saturday, are you going? Local Reform Cllrs are fucking furious because they aren't being invited.
The body was too short or empty. The body was too short or empty. Flood detected.
>>2379615I'm not optimistic about the prospects of a potential left party, and I think there's an uncomfortably high chance it turns into a total palaver because the short-staffed left picked up a few geriatric cranks who're happy to back the establishment so long as they're cracking down on the right young people.
But it's embarrassing how partisan the framing is here. The Stats for Lefties is a Green, so he's got to piss on the project because it risks splitting a vote that the Greens believe to rightfully be theirs. Petty and strategically dubious - you're not going to stop the party from being founded by tweeting about it, but if you don't seem opposed from the off you'll be a lot more convincing when you critique it later.
I've seen a few other Greens doing it and it always looks pathetic. Come the fuck on, you're the Greens, be nice. Or at least roll your current leaders for the boob guy if you want to bounce around all cock-a-hoop.
>>2380133It's all going to be lefty-corporate graphic design slop and have a gay name like "the compassion party" and everybody here knows it.
Picrel is a best-case scenario.
>>2380530They are the one group I agree with Iron Felix on then
>>2380536Maybe its different in London or other places but in South Wales they do not usually call themselves British.
>>2380222>heApparently Stats for lefties is a trans she.
>Mentally ill "Marxist"I have doubts about the Marxist part.
>>2381400> around these partsWell you are betraying your class position because most of the country by far can't afford to go off buy a red brick home, pay to go to Turkey for cosmetic surgeries and so on and so on.
What job do you and these people even have? out of curiosity.
>>2381406These people have the cheapest new builds, built on flood plains and designed to crumble in 50 years, and sell their souls for the mortgage, it's not exactly the societal elites.
Most have grotty office jobs, HR positions, maybe assistant managers at a Sports Direct or some shit, try to hustle on Instagram or onlyfans on the side.
>>2381491what the fuck?
has this ever happened? I don't even think this shit happened in the 80's.
>>2380520It needs really to be more like the Dems tbh. A coalition of other left wing parties and groups that all agree on a largely material bread and butter issues (economy/immigration), then allow free voting on whatever social issues or whatever, leadership of the party should basically never comment on social issues as well, take the Anthony Albanese route.
Run Workers party conservatives in rural areas and the north, Greens in places like Bristol, Glastonbury, Sheffield etc then have Zarah types in big BAME metropolis areas.
Any strict "Left" party with whips and shit is just going to lead to your pic related.
Also in terms of name, the "Empathy" party is another lame fucking one I could see. Knew personally a lot of the movers and shakers of the Respect Party and they always had this eyerolling shitlib saccharine way they used language.
>>2380073Kwasi Kwatering exists. Yes, having a three way with Liz Truss and Amber Rudd gives him some lol points, but still far worse than Reeves.
As to the image, I strongly with the Aimee Terese's take back when she was a Marxist that one of the biggest LMAO trends of modern politics is female politicians always blubbering when things don't go their way and weaponizing "uwu I'm just a poor dumb girlie plz don't bully me". Always supposedly "girlboss" types doing this as well.
>>2381406Deano's live on credit, they usually quite literally work in shitty call center, labourer and sales jobs barely above minimum wage.
They are absolutely are one of the major groups the left should be appealing too. Jeremy Corbyn basically rose to 45% based on a fucking football chant that took off among Deanos.
"Most people are too poor"
The overwhelming majority of British people are homeowners. Not among us young people yes, but most of the country aren't youth and youth voters are notoriously unreliable support base because most will grow into Libdem/Centrist types as they move into their 40s.
>>2381647Truss, Kwasi and Rudd are all swingers and were banging eachother at the same time.
Truss in particular has been known about being a turbo slut since her Lib Dem days.
Banged her way through Parliament, used to fuck all her aides and would relentlessly sexually harass the ones she didn't (one famous story was her trying to face fuck an aide as he tried to fix his computer under the desk), Journalists would ask "My office or yours?" after interviews. There is an apparent sex tape out there of her (Guardian even reported on this). A big rumour around whitehall is that a lot of her security detail as PM, asked to be reassigned due to her constant cringe attempts to get them to fuck her.
Go look at reporting on Truss' scandals over the years, and you even see pretty reputable outlets here and there mentioning this stuff on the side.
>>2381628Were the Deanos really behind the Corbyn chant?
Seemed to me it was mainly student-age younguns. If anything Deano types are prime nu-Tory voters, they're materialistic, young parents and homeowners of new-builds, and politically disengaged, not caring for whatever the lefties are getting uppity about voting for 'less tax, simple as' of the Tories.
You've mentioned the real constituency of the left-wing in this country, the affluent but liberal towns and the diverse cities who vote that way mainly for lifestyle/identity reasons like “I’m BAME and from the city, so are they” and “I think climate change is bad and care about the environment, so do they”. Policy discussion has practically become obsolete when everyone knows it's gonna be more austerity and neo-liberalism, ad infinitum.
What wins or loses an election in the UK is the favour of the formerly industrialised working-class, the former 'red-wall', who have now become right-wing voters due to the left focusing on cultural issues, having no answer to the immigration question and having their relation to the means of production completely changed.
Ofc the right, with the full support of the media, are the framers of every debate. It's really no surprise this country is so right wing considering the formerly industrial proletariat have been petite-bourgeois-ified into small (construction/trade) business owning, or working for, or working for real estate agencies, call centres and the like.
Thatcher successfully broke the backs of millions of the working-class, it became true that you could only rely on yourself to get ahead and having any big ideas about 'fairness' made you a loser.
Back to the ineptitude of the left, aside from the bread and butter issues that have always been popular, the left need to stop being pussies and admit that cultural issues are of secondary importance and that unfettered immigration is harmful to the CORE of society.
They need to explain to voters that the right lies about their anti-immigration stance, that net-migration has soared since Brexit, that 'gaps' in the labour market come down to the poor level of education (and direction) that most receive in school.
They need to explain immigration is kept high to enrich the ownership class by keeping housing costs high and wages low. It needs to be said the right, at the capitalist’s behest, intentionally stokes racial tension to divide the masses, preventing them from coming together and taking what's theirs: the collective wealth of our entire society.
What would be even worse is if the left dared to link just about every humanitarian crisis in the world to the machinations of capitalist imperialism and how they have plundered and destabilised around the world.
The left won't do this because they have abandoned a Marxist approach to an understanding of capitalist social relations in the core countries, and imperialist exploitation in the periphery.
Honestly, I think only a crisis will change the situation at all, and until then the mainstream left will play second fiddle to losers like Starmer who will sabotage potential left opportunities and sink the ship deeper, and deeper.
In conclusion, never give up and vote for George Galloway’s Workers’ Party and the closest opportunity!!
>>2381628>The overwhelming majority of British people are homeowners.I doubt this. serious reservations about how those numbers are taken.
>>2381938>>Not wanting the Liz TrussySir in this house we simp for Francesca P Albanese.
>>2381809>Back to the ineptitude of the left, aside from the bread and butter issues that have always been popular, the left need to stop being pussies and admit that cultural issues are of secondary importance and that unfettered immigration is harmful to the CORE of society.I've been sayin this for a long time but trying to get Leftists to admit mass migration and the destruction of cultural and civic life is bad is like pulling massive teeth. 95% of the Left still won't acknowledge, or will cover for the grooming gangs, simply because it would force them to acknowledge that massive cultural differences, and extreme ingroup biases exist in non-white ethnic groups and they take advantage of specifically white people for being far more naive.
I'm not even white and I'm going to most likely have to white-flight my area due to mass migration, because where I live has become an unlivable fucking shithole due to recent migrants. Another night of no sleeping because groups migrants literally spend all fucking night doing god knows what on the streets around here making fucking SHITLOADS of noise, like revving their fucking scooters and shit, they do this most nights, they do not give a fucking shit about people needing to sleep because of ingroup bias (and there is a specific reason they are clearly doing this in an are of this suburb that has the last locals). But regular people being forced out due to antisocial, uncivic behaviour, not an issue due to most of the left, just "racism" lol. The fact much of the people forced out will never, ever vote left again and will see left defending this shit as an attack on them and their families, not an issue.
It's not just that now, women are being harassed around here by groups of men, the trash situation has become unreal, lack of all civic norms that make even walking around here now a pain in the ass because they will just take up an entire walk way bridge to hang and chat and not move and shit like that. It's pretty clear they realize average Brits won't confront them and if they do get confronted it's becoming another rUnitedKingdom "racism incident" on film and they take advantage of that.
I've always held the take that much of the Western left are "punks" and that is their real social movement and Leftistism is just used as a guise for it and that they actually enjoy the the antisocial attitudes leading to the fact "normies" suffer. You see it even from a lot of users and moderators here and it's extremely prevalent in the Western left in how swaths of it worship the Lumpenproletariat.
Mass Immigration has always been a weapon to drive down wages, destroy social harmony, and destroy the ability for working people to collectivise and engage in workers actions. Mass migration in all metric leads to lower civic trust, lower civic attitudes, more dog eat dog attitues and yet the Left puts shitty Shitlib "racism" idpol over an issue with is directly effecting our base.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/335924797_Ethnic_Diversity_and_Social_Trust_A_Narrative_and_Meta-Analytical_Reviewhttps://sci-hub.se/https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1467-9477.2007.00176.xhttps://www.theverge.com/2020/4/20/21228324/amazon-whole-foods-unionization-heat-map-union> If anything Deano types are prime nu-Tory voters, they're materialistic, young parents and homeowners of new-buildsThe left still needs to appeal to find a way to appeal to these people. The left needs to engage with most of society, and Deano's are a massive core working class demographic. So are tradespeople and Tradies often are on pretty decent wages and are typical self employed or small business owners.
We just can't keep appealing to university shitlibs and Muslims, the left needs to expand it's base.
Also I will just add to note, that plenty of Norf Deanos are left wing, especially Liverpool and that area. Also Youtubers like FriendlyJordies seem to be massive popular among Deano demographics. I actually wish the UK left had it's own Friendlyjordies instead of sanctimonious breadtube and Novara dickheads.
I think Leftist content creation should really copy FriendlyJordies. Focus on funny cultural shit that Deanos like like football, stories about shithead retards in school, funny workplace stories, then intermingle that with Leftist journalism and analysis done in a more bants, comedic way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBKFwO6wh6E>>2383147Any Left party should really just focus on bread and butter issues, and allow free vote on social issues, that has been my position for any political project.
What I'm talking about there, is the fact the Left puts fucking shitlib positions ahead of Working Class issues. Mass Migration is a Capitalist ploy, it does lead to massive collapse in unionization, collectivization efforts and wages. Also I find it staggering that most Leftists claim to be "communists" yet are against any form of enforcement of civic norms. Lack of civic values, incredibly strong ingroup biases among minorities, and ethnic enclaves where they actively treat outsiders like fucking shit, and even specifically target other ethnic demographics for crime, rape, violence etc, is not a good fucking state of things to avoid. The fact the Left literally spent decades, and still does, cover for the Grooming Gangs is a massive fucking stain on the Left of this country. As someone who lived in Sheffield, right near Rotherham, even the most wokie fucking shitlib women knew to stay the fuck away from heavily Pakistani/New immigrant areas. On multiple occasions My friends and I had to rush to help girls we knew being assaulted or harassed or even attempted kidnapping in broad daylight by Pakistani men, when they visited areas near/around the NE of the city heading up to Rotherham like Burngreave, constant stories among women of being attempted to get dragged into white workers vans and shit like that by Pakistanis when out. Are Pakistani's targeting their own women? Of course not, it's mostly white teen girls they view as lower class.
The left of course is like "Yeah not a issue you racist, did you know rich people also kidnap and rape people?"
>that isn't actually that much of an issue but that you were manipulated to think is.Yeah man totally manipulated to not be able to look out my fucking window and see my local area turn into a fucking ghetto where women are fucking assaulted in the street, I now walk over litter to get anywhere because migrants don't know the concept of a bin, and they spend all night congregating around the streets and making stupid amounts of fucking noise to like 4am because it's clear they are trying to drive out the last locals.
Again, the fact so many of you call yourselves communists, yet do not give a single fucking shit about civic values or social harmony, makes me think more of you care more about just being Lumpens "sticking it to the man" than actual healthy communities.
>>2383174Places like the US and Australia are very different from here dude. The New World have far stricter immigration controls, far more attempts to integrate people, don't have the same cultural dynamics as here.
UK is an extremely class/region.
Another thing you have to accept is Europe is a very old place, with very old cultural traditions, cultures and peoples. Would you be fine with immigrants going into Japan and fucking it up and demanding they change everything to accomidate them and making Japan another piece in the homogenized fucking cultural modern shithold world? No? Then why should Europe be forced to do this? The destruction of cultural heritage is a much larger issue in the UK and Europe than New World because the New world was built on Immigration and has a frontier mindset, Europe does not. It's the exact same reason Neoliberalism was much more of a disaster here compared to the US, because Neoliberalism doesn't meld with entrech UK cultural class dynamics.
Another issue is that there are different "degrees" of Immigrants. Notice people don't have an issue with largely Brahman Indians or Chinese? Because they don't cause issues, there are plenty of Pakistani people who are extremely well integrated, along with plenty of Somalis or whatever. I've worked with plenty of these types. These people are not the wave of Immigration in the past 20 years though, which is flooding Europe with people from the shittiest religions of the third world. Even my Pakistani co-workers despised all the new Pakistani immigrants because "Mirpur" does not have a good repuation even in Pakistan and a lot of my Pakistani co-workers fled this area, due to Mirpur immigration.
Another is, frankly, you just cannot ignore Black people have been part of the UK now for 50 years, and still largely haven't integrated all that well despite given every opportunity and UK media sucking off the black community like they are main historical ethnic group of England. Areas like Peckham, Croydon, Thamesmead etc are still crime ridden fucking shitholes that feel like you have walked into some other country. Look up Nottingham Carnival here for just the most absolute insane display of fucking shitty behaviour here. Video after video of their white female police officers clearly being gang sexually harassed and the partner is just "well if I try do anything I'm going to be stabbed to death" so has to watch.
Don't even get started on the stabbings or the fact the entire British left treated Chris Kaba as a dindunuttin good angelic hero for like 2 fucking years until the court documents came out showing he was fucking gangland hitman doing drivebys. Black London Tiktok is basically just a "do crime against whitey they are pussies" video app at this point, the amount of times I've seen in person, black teens just walk into stores, grab armfulls of stuff and walk out while kicking down stands and shelves, is frankly countless at this point. They are putting security locks on fucking produce here now lmao.
It's out of control, the Left constantly just gives into minority ethno-narcissism and it's propelling terrible behaviour.
>>2383201>New World have far stricter immigration controls, far more attempts to integrate peopleidk how US immigration controls compare to european ones, certainly they have become far stricter in the past decades even before trump. but there is not really "more attempts to integrate people", most integration in the US is voluntary and always has been. its a classic source of angst here for the off-the-boat generation that their kids readily abandon traditions and languages to become americanized, it happened to my grandparents/parents and i saw it happen with kids i grew up with
>Another thing you have to accept is Europe is a very old place, with very old cultural traditions, cultures and peoples. Would you be fine with immigrants going into Japan and fucking it up and demanding they change everything to accomidate them and making Japan another piece in the homogenized fucking cultural modern shithold world? No? Then why should Europe be forced to do this? The destruction of cultural heritage is a much larger issue in the UK and Europe than New World because the New world was built on Immigration and has a frontier mindset, Europe does not. yes, this is exactly why i am willing to hear people out about immigration concerns outside of former settler-colonies whereas in US/canada/australia etc i am confident it is simply xenophobia and/or racism far more often than not. which isnt to say i necessarily "support" "unrestricted" immigration but i am ambiguous to it and so long as the US is the global hegemon scouring huge portions of the planet i am only sympathetic to people fleeing immiseration here. likewise i find it strange seeing black british adopt aspects of black american culture wholesale as if its the same situation, honestly seems tonedeaf and genuinely "appropriative." which is not to downplay the horrific colonial history, but theres a difference between a lineage of being enslaved in the country you remain in and have generations of ancestors that have lived and labored in and still face serious persecution directly descended from those original circumstances, and emigrating from an at least formally independent commonwealth nation like jamaica etc. at the very least theres a few more degrees of seperation that make it seem presumptuous to treat average europeans in their own countries as having a de facto complicity in colonial & imperial ventures that is in any way comparable to the US situation where the average white citizen was very often regularly and reliably the enforcer of colonial expansion/white supremacist policy. which isnt an "inherited guilt" thing, it is just simply reasonable for black americans to have a sense of caution and certain degree of resentment for white society when there is living memory of a time where lynchings were a fun public festivity in the same town you now live in.
i still hold confidently that anti-migrant rhetoric is fundamentally reactionary, tho i suppose there is a distinction to be made there between position towards migrants in the country and policy towards continued immigration. i am also very skeptical of anyone treating immigration as somehow a moral good in itself which never made any sense to me as to why it would ever be a good thing simply on principle.
>>2383201Pseud, "japanese culture" was made up in the 19th century as part of constructing nation statehood.
Same is true of "le ancient European culture"
Did you know that nobody gave a fuck about the notre dame before victor hugo wrote a book about it
>>2383222Even if that were true, it's still better than the thirdie, ethnic enclave, hustling, lack of any civic awareness or education shithole we have become.
The reality is, pretty much every other ethnic group bar white people, has a strong ingroup bias. Muslims communities will happily shield violence, terrorism and crime against non-Muslims, and any crime committed in their communities, they deal with themselves among themselves, British Jews? Have pedos rape and target children, then have Shomrim give them a first class ticket to Israel, British Blacks, have black teens go around punching everyone on the bus in the back of the head as they walk past and the community does not give a fucking shit, have black teens just loot stores in broad daylight, constant stabbings, people clearly carrying all around London, sexually assaulting and abusing police etc they refuse to snitch on any of their own, then cry "racism" because their communities are shitholes where, and I quote plenty of delivery and uber drivers I knew a few years back, would not go into certain areas of London, because high chance they would get jacked.
In fact, my area of London, used to be very nice and quite posh, now I can't get an uber here anymore after dark, because most Uber drivers won't step foot here anymore.
Playing into the bad faith ethno-narcissism of minorities is not a good move for the left, because it fuels their bad behaviour and "fuck civic rules, If I get in trouble for stabbing another kid to death it's because I'm a victim" attitude. Another is that every single Idpol setback that blows up in our faces, reduces Leftist clout among Normies back to zero. A big reason that Normal people fucking hate us on the Left, is because even though they agree with pretty much us on most bread and butter issues, they see us just become bizarrely deranged on Idpol issues and won't call a spade a spade, or even stand with antisocial attitudes, often hypocritically, simply because they are coming from minorities.
Also is it that bad to say, I actually like a lot of British culture, and I don't want to see it fucking get pushed out by more and more antisocial migrants who don't give a fuck about integrating at all? Should I be fine with ethnic landlords buying up entire high streets, kicking out all the law abiding local businesses and replacing them with dodgy clear ethnic money laundering fronts? A part of the reason the UK feels like such a fucking shithole, is the fact high streets and other community places have become hubs of ethnic based crime.
I mean, just look at deliveries, how in fuck are brand new FOB immigrants driving around doing Uber and deliveries? How is that possible when they can't possibly have a license for a year? Oh right, they just ignore the fucking law and police don't even bother to engage with enforcing it because the communities protect themselves.
I'm not against all immigration, I think though the UK should prioritise countries that actually have strong cultural linkage to UK culture (Australia, Canada, New Zealand, France, Netherlands) and even then, have very strict civic requirements as part of permanent residency here. Having people breeze through a basic 10 multiple choice question isn't enough, Civic education as to what China does and requires graduation from, is far more the position the UK and Europe should take.
>>2383251My take is this, most minority groups have pretty strong ingroup biases, many minority groups are extremely fine with Lumpenprole attitudes, "hustling" and behaviour towards people outside of their communities and they will never snitch because of those ethnic ingroup biases. Another big issue is white people are made targets because many minority communities see the outgroup high trust biases, as well as fear as being seen as "racist" to step up adn defend themselves, as just weakness that is easy to target. This is how you get the daily occurance now on the Overground and tube where minorities openly just mug people openly on trains and platforms, right there in front of Transport police who can't do shit because they are outnumbered. A few weeks ago I was on the tube, saw a guy smash through the doors closing doors bashing them and getting them stuck, when some white guy made a comment about how he could have waited 2 minutes, the guy who made the comment was assaulted and abused, by multiple black people on the train, and nobody intervened at all.
This is "based" according to much of the Left here, because again, most people here just fucking hate normies and in particular white people and want to see white people suffer.
Do you think a Communist country like China or the USSR would have accepted such behaviour? Of course not.
>>2383244Advocating that the Government goes on an enforcement blitz around civicism and enforcing basic fucking cultural norms and values. That Permanent Residency in the UK should have far stricter requirements around civic engagement and attitudes.
>>2383246yeah man, having ethnic crime cartels and ethnic landlords drive out locals and drive down wages because all their costs are lowered due to cartel criminal behaviour and attacking all the rights Unions fought so hard for like safety and wages is so fucking based.
https://www.ntu.ac.uk/about-us/news/news-articles/2024/05/exploitation-in-the-hand-car-wash-sectorhttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-55765213Slavery is so fucking based!
(Racial idpol) Britain is not a so-called 'melting pot' that is oft said, it is the homeland of a specific people, who can do not need population influxes to build the nation if governed correctly.
The failures of this country do not come down to immigration, but immigration has an objectively negative effect on society when kept at the unfathomably high levels that it is.
Recent immigrants have done what exactly? Gave us new foodslop stalls for punters? Brilliant.
New migrants form mafias, like the other anon said, and protect their own; they are the ones who are the footsoldiers of organised crime: car theft, phone theft, muggings, drug dealing, sex trafficking etc. That's not to say they are the sole perpetrators, it's just natural for deracinated transplants to do the dirty work of society.
Of course the police and intelligence services are all too happy to exploit migrants in their operations at managing the organised crime that fuels much of the global economy, especially here in blighty, the home of global drug smuggling and money laundering.
Enough with the discordian games of the capitalists, no war abroad, no crime on our streets. No unjust taxes and extortionate cost of living on the workers, no free money to the rich and warmongers.
One nation, one people.
>>2383309Trvke
Calling Britain a melting pot is actually colonialist cope. “They were all subjects of our empire once”, “they’re like us cause they’re part of the commonwealth”, all that nonsense. Unfortunately though, because British people are White, you’re not allowed to acknowledge that they exist as an ethnicity. They have to be reduced to Normans, celts, Anglo-Saxons, etc.
>>2383485that's just how it is
reactionary magic
>>2383405whiteness doesnt exist you americanised buffoon 😂
>i have pale skin, therefore i am like you<cut to dresden fire bombing and 70 million dead europeans laterpeople say muh evropa but the EU is unironically the fourth reich.
>>2383342>the settlers have been numeous since then; romans, anglo-saxons, normans and dutchWhy should Britain have a "door's open" policy to immigration because of historical, pre-modern, migration?
Are we still living in the Migration Period and has the Romans Empire just collapsed?
Does no "Englishman" or "Scotsman" have any right to their home because the Romans invaded, or because they have Germanic and Celtic heritage?
Immigrants shouldn't be discriminated against or deported like members of the Windrush generation have been; because in the case of the Windrush gen, they came to fill an unavoidable labour shortage and to rebuild the country after the war.
Other migrants have also contributed to our 'economy' but to the benefit of whom? The capitalist class, who see no reason to uplift the millions of people living in poverty and squalor, they much prefer mass immigration as we know.
>>2383574>What would you call someone who is not Asian, Black or Mixed race? White, retard.you do know that "asian" spans from russians to indians to chinese, right? its not one category. and "mixed race" includes many configurations. also, do you consider eastern europeans part of your tribe? how about native americans; they have indo-european ancestry, and worship the skyfather, so are they "white"? also, look up african civil wars and genocides. it is "black" people killing each other for racial reasons. how is that? because like any continent, there are many ethnicities.
>>2383547>Why should Britain have a "door's open" policy to immigration because of historical, pre-modern, migration?where did i say it should? i am just correcting your eroneous notions that we were ever a "homogenous" island living in peace with each other. there is no british race, just british races.
>Does no "Englishman" or "Scotsman" have any right to their home because the Romans invaded, or because they have Germanic and Celtic heritage?the scots are put under the rule of an english king, so apparently not. do you support scottish independence? or welsh independence?
>Other migrants have also contributed to our 'economy' but to the benefit of whom? The capitalist class, who see no reason to uplift the millions of people living in poverty and squalor, they much prefer mass immigration as we know.the irony is that i see hoards of illegal immigrants on e-bikes making deliveries, while white crackheads are pestering the public for drug money. i live in liverpool and the ratio between white and black homeless is 100:1, while the white:black ratio of pedestrians i see about the city is 10:1. i think the illegal immigrant contributes much more to britain than these tramps, personally. not just economically, but civily. of course, not all illegal immigrants work or make peace with the public, but these are of the same class of scum as the white criminals, no? i just dont like the hypocrisy. if theres a day of reckoning, lots of heads must roll.
>>2383862>No one would assume someone who looks like that is White. so you can have white skin and not be white? what denotes whiteness, then? i would agree btw that there are distinctly english phenotypes like blue eyes. i have hazel eyes so am caught out straight away. in eurasia it gets difficult too, since you get the african flat nose, but squinty eyes, so there is always a gradient. here's a question, are there people "more" or "less" white than others? which ethnicity is "most" white?
>>2383863😂 sound.
>>2383828>the scots are put under the rule of an english king, so apparently notthe scots are under under a german king like what the english are. scots are also a mixed-people with the Norse-Gaels, Norse and Angles being part of modern day scotland
>i live in liverpool and the ratio between white and black homeless is 100:1that would make sense because liverpool is 90% white. also what really is the point of having so many of these new fast food places and delivery drivers everywhere? to get the government money? to subsidise corporations and send weapons abroad with? depressing really
>>2383875the english are a germanic tribe called the "angles" (what today is referred to as "anglos"); thats why "angle-land" became england.
>scots are also a mixed-people with the Norse-Gaels, Norse and Angles being part of modern day scotlandokay, so its the race mixing which makes us integrated?
>that would make sense because liverpool is 90% whitenot really, since its disproportional. up here in the norf you get white kids acting like the soufs black kids. thats why i think there is a class element to all of it.
>also what really is the point of having so many of these new fast food places and delivery drivers everywhere? started with covid, which coincided with the "boris wave" of infinity migrants. i believe they work for delivery services since they dont need proof of citizenship for it. thats why you sometimes see police arresting delivers workers for illegally working. its a mystery who is buying these electric bikes for them tho 🤔 never figured that one out.
>>2383877or "irish", since they provided much slave labour.
>>2383934melanesians have naturally blonde hair
mediterraneans on suicide watch?
we can afford giving billions to israel and ukraine, but not to NHS doctors 🤔 an economy of death. maybe we could sack a few police officers to free up the budget? only 5% of crimes lead to a charge, so police lack any incrimental competence. they can arrest you for offensive tweets but not anyone for burglaries.
>In 2024, there were approximately 170,500 police officers in the United Kingdomhttps://www.statista.com/statistics/303963/uk-police-officer-numbers/>As of September 2024, there were 146,387 full-time equivalent (FTE) doctors in NHS Hospitals and Community Health Services (HCHS) in Englandhttps://www.statista.com/statistics/679968/number-of-doctors-nhs-hchs-workforce-england/25,000 more cops than doctors?
<If you’re a doctor starting your specialist training in 2025 your basic salary will be £52,656 to £73,992https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explore-roles/doctors/pay-doctors<£40,000 salary for police officershttps://nationalcareers.service.gov.uk/job-profiles/police-officerthere's your budget!
>>2384084>What do you think the government should do to increase the amount of money it has to spend?it doesnt have to spend as much money as it does already. here are my suggestions:
(1) reverse devolution to limit the amount of councillors and MPs which are able to operate
(2) limit the police force by at least half (including PCSOs), scrap thatcher's reforms of the metropolitan police and resume a local body of law enforcement (i.e. "bobby on the beat").
(3) re-introduce the death penalty for (uncontestable) murderers (including drug/drunk drivers) and rapists (including child molestors), to keep jail populations low (and for retributive justice). for mild offenders, sentences will be radically shortened in place of free labour for public industries. prison will then be a smaller part of our national budget while profiting us.
(4) re-industrialise britain and create internal markets for business, rather than depending on foreign imports.
(5) establish camps for asylum seekers in which all cases are monitored. after processing, all economic migrants will be deported, and all refugees will be held in safety, within the bounds of the camp's vicinity. a fixed term will be set for each case (up to a term of 5 years, lets say), and after this, there will be a further assessment of a country's safety, after which, if confirmed, they will be sent back. in this process, there will be no personal spending, but all resources will be distributed directly, like a school or prison. this way, there can be no profit, only safety ensured for individuals. the refugees will therefore have no contact with the general public, but will still be treated well.
(6) limit the salary of all politicians to the rate of minimum wage, so that there are no monetary incentives in holding political power. any and politicians who breach this condition, by gaining extra-political income, will be charged with treason.
(7) abolish the house of lords
(8) abolish tuition fees for university students, but replace them with qualification scores based on UCAS points, to ensure the most academically gifted, rather than the wealthiest, get higher education.
(9) scrap the TV license and subsidise the BBC from other revenues.
(10) upgrade public transport in every capacity.
(11) put all homeless people in camps and force them to become civilised, re-educated, housed and employed.
(12) all job centres will give you a job within a month of applying for allowance; allowance which extends beyond a month will then be treated criminally.
(13) all council home residents will be exempt from rent payments under a de facto housing benefit.
>>2384957I was there they had 12 people max and when I marched passed as a part of Unison Corbyn wasn't there either lol
.
>>2385041Which class do you think is impacted by climate change the most?
Are the politicans and elites doing anything about climate change now?
Climate change is a real problem that will result in mass devastation and suffering for the proletariat, particularly in the global south. It's a real phenomena causing widescale destruction today.
It's not just a "culture war" with no real consequences, moron. It's another part of class war and is leading to massive scale societal collapse. Think with your brain before you post in future.
>>2385145Which age bracket do you think dies the most due to heat related illness?
Are you being intentionally dense? Please, think with your brain before you post in future.
>>2385149You said climate change is a culture war with no impact on class issues.
Now you're trying to say that I "live in the world of opinions", an utterly ridiculous phrase intended to sweep aside the fact what I said was correct.
Of course it is not about what any people think in and of itself, but about the material consequences as a result of those opinions and positions being acted upon by states, political parties, by the elites.
The opinions lead to actions. That is the world of reality.
Is that too hard to grasp? Are you being intentionaly obtuse? Do you really think it is the opinions in a vaccuum I was upset with?
Why start this arguement at all? So you can call me a woke culture war warrior?
>"Don't worry about the working class and global south dying from climate change so long as I got to call someone woke on /leftypol/ for mentioning the class impact of the planetary ecosystem being destroyed!!!!"^ That is literally you right now, smh smh.
>>23846344. How do you propose to re industrialise when britain is now economically geared towards the service sector? People are being trained for middle management jobs and shit like that, what happens to all of them?
6. Wouldn’t this just lead to corruption? I.e. bribes, lobbying from well moneyed groups, politicians only coming from the moneyed classes with a vested interest in their own profits - perhaps best to just start with scrapping the pm’s pension, no reason people like liz truss should be getting a pension
8. Then problem is that the “academically gifted” largely come, and will continue to come from the rich, because they have the economic and cultural capital to support academic attainment, i.e. tutors, private education, stable home lives, etc
12. How? It’s not really in the job centres power to grant people employment, that decision is up to the employer. There would need to be a constitutional right to work, like in the ussr
>>2383263>(Racial idpol)Criticizing antisocial ingroup identity politics is identity politics according to the fucking retarded moderators here.
Seriously, when did leftypol become fucking braindead GreenandPleasant/rSocialism types? Absolutely insufferable.
>>2383405Colonialist copium that I've argued alot on reddit with normies about, they legitimately believe because London and Birmingham are minority white, that makes up for the Colonial exploitation the British Empire inflicted upon the world, and that the UK is far more "moral" than countries like Russia or China because of it. Another is just the fact that the US dominates all culture and people genuinely want to LARP as Americans. It's why the Civil Rights movement, BLM etc play such a massive outsized role in UK narratives, despite having pretty much no relevance here. It's why every commercial now has to be 80% black and period shows need to be 40% black, because that is what US media looks like.
Anyway
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/anti-semitism-normalised-in-middle-class-britain/ar-AA1Iu0vcOpenly Israeli Embassy front group comissions a Government report staffed by some of the most vicious Zionists in Government, and shock horror, the report decides it should strip up of even more rights and free speech on behalf of "antisemitism".
Wow almost like INGROUP BIASES EXIST huh you fucking retarded mod reading this.
People brazenly scamming mobility is what is going to create the narrative to implement mass austerity against welfare this country. It's such brazen, in the open scamming, that people can see with their own eyes (their landlords driving mobility cards, business owners driving mobility cars, drug dealers driving mobility cars, Uni student Tumblrites driving mobility cars etc) that people are really catching on fast and realizing that the entire disability system is being scammed to oblivion by people who know to follow the script to get maximum mobility PIP.
Instead of just actually doing PROPER FUCKING INVESTIGATIONS of fraud that go beyond skimming their primary bank account (literally reported a multiple property owning landlord who was subletting out his own council flat, I knew a few years back for scamming PIP, did he lose his PIP or even get found wrongdoing of anything? Nope, because he knew to act mostly in cash and keep assets off his name officially.), they will tear the entire welfare system to the ground.
My only explanation as to why the Scamming has allowed to have gotten so bad and brazen, is that the Government is crafting the reality that lets them gut UK welfare entirely.
Britain's North Sea fishermen set to be 'decolonised' - as fishing museum probes racism links
>Britain's North sea fishermen are set to be 'decolonised' as Grimsby fishing museum plans to probe its material for links with slavery, colonialism and racism.
>The Grimsby Fishing Heritage Centre is reviewing its collection of artefacts relating to the now depleted fishing fleets, The Telegraph reports.
>The museum dedicated to 'Grimsby's fishing heritage' will aim to address the potential connections between this heritage and 'colonialism and racism'.
>Objects relating to the work of trawlermen will be assessed, along with other material, to decide whether they might be 'problematic'.
>Any links to slavery will be underlined, and the Grimsby Fishing Heritage Centre will seek to include more information relating to those from diverse backgrounds.
>The museum, which is overseen by the Tory-run North East Lincolnshire council, displays numerous artefacts linked to North Sea fishing fleets.
>The centre intends to 'share how museum objects can represent stories of slavery, colonialism, and racism, and are committed to addressing the legacy of these subjects through open and honest conversations with those we represent'.
>It has pledged to decolonise – a term that ordinarily refers to moving away from from a white, Western-centric world view.
>This work is understood to have only just begun, and will be centred around a review of the collection to check for any 'problematic objects, interpretation, or terminology' with respect to 'decolonisation and people from protected characteristic groups'.
>It is currently unclear what hypothetical links to slavery or colonialism may be.
>Grimsby was once the busiest fishing port in the world, boasting a fleet of 700 trawlers. But it has suffered a dramatic decline following the Icelandic cod wars of the early Seventies and the EU's Common Fisheries Policy.
>A North East Lincolnshire council spokesman said: 'Work is ongoing and the team are currently undertaking a collections review in respect to items related to decolonisation and people from protected characteristic groups.'https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/other/britain-s-north-sea-fishermen-set-to-be-decolonised-as-fishing-museum-probes-racism-links/ar-AA1ItPQy >>2385870Not white at all, and i'm more mad at Leftists for continuing to fall for bad faith identity politics and shitty behaviour from groups because most Leftists are naive middle income sheltered suburban cucks who have never spent a day actually interacting with Lumpens or non-white people that aren't uni educated middle income types.
You know, there has to be some truth to the "the left is antisemitic" narrative, when leftists can easily identify ingroup biases and bad faith weaponized identity politics among Zionist Jews, but seemingly, every other minority group does not engage in such behaviour at all for just some magic reason.
There is a reason minority ethnic groups love playing with left wing parties to build up their own clout and political power, then when they get connections and establishment clout, they instantly backstab the left as they start to make deals with the Establishment, and this happens literally, every single fucking time.
Do you people think for example, The Workers Party would not immediately be backstabbed by the Muslim reps and supporters the moment they can use their positions to grab more fruitful positions in Labour or The Tories, or use their positions to push a more Islamic agenda than a Socialist one?
This is why I genuinely hold the position that most leftists simply are not cut out for politics. Most of you are so naieve about the role identity and culture plays in normies lives it's actually to the point of absurdity.
It's like how retards only tell me there is only 0.05% fraud in PIP when 50% of people I interacted with when I lived on an estate and had to spend years dealing with Lumpens, was scamming it in some way. It's more just that the "investigation" for PIP is that if you aren't scamming 100k through your primary bank account, they don't give a shit. They don't even check apps like Revolut or Wise to see if you are holding cash there. Like I said in a previous post, I knew fucking LANDLORDS who I reported, who were on full PIP. DWP did not give a shit.
>>2385872Not Australian lol.
>>2385891Pretty sure if you are running a business, or running around as a fucking LANDLORD, you should not be in social fucking housing, or qualify for max mobility.
>>2385901It's not that they are overwhelmingly bourgiousie, you are missing the fucking point, it's that they don't give a fuck about leftist politics. They see leftists as naive useful idiots they can use as a ladder to gain more political and social power to then jump ship to a more establishment position and kick the left down afterwards.
This is what happens every fucking time btw. It happened to Respect, it happened in the Labour party, we have tonnes of ex-ethnic leftist activists even in the fucking Tories and Lib Dems.
The vast majority of Jews, care more about Judaism and Jewish people, than anything else, the vast majority of black people, identify with black community and black politicans, pushing black idpol, more than anyone else, Muslims, care more about Islamic values and ideals, than fucking LGBT worshipping Western Leftists.
Identity plays a massive, outsized role in most ethnic minority lives, that is just reality, it's backed up by polling and study after study.
https://genforwardsurvey.com/news/data-for-liberation/Here a fucking LEFTIST org, who's own data sets show, that ethnic minorities, only largely give a single fucking shit about their fellow cultural/ethnic ingroup.
Yet the left goes on and on defending this sort of identity politics, and defending clearly antisocial lumpen behaviour from every fucking group as long as they are not White or Jewish.
It's insufferable, you fucking retards will be living with Nigel Farage as PM in a few short years and wondering "duur why are average working people such fucking retards that they purely imagine there are any problems at all with immigration or ethnic enclaves duuuur haven't white people in *checks notes* bradford ever met a non white person before? of course not, white brits are bigots the lot of em"
Another issue I'm bringing up, is the fact that brazen fucking scamming of Government systems, is going to lead to mass austerity the likes not seen since thatcher. The UK welfare system is basically done, it will be dismantled in the next 10 years, and a large part of this, is fucking black tik tok, putting out video after video as to how to scam fucking mobility and PIP.
Video related, great work our disability fucking support going towards paying for her car and fucking NOS and lets be real, flat and bills as well. The Left has no problem with this though of course despite it will lead to actual disabled people being thrown off the system in the coming years.
>>2385915>we have tonnes of ex-ethnic leftist activists even in the fucking Tories and Lib Dems.[who?]
Besides that though, this is a truthnuke of biblical porportions. The Adrians are already seething:
>>2385918 >>2385915as ive said before, these minorities are full human beings like us, not political pawns. they want a middle class lifestyle and a comfortable existence. the idea that there is anything inherently political in their minority status just shows basic prejudice (from eithr the right or left). the most they offer is ingroup preference, or idpol, as you say. going from "free palestine" to "free the proletariat" is a very big leap.
>bourgeoisthe paradox of anti-muslim hatred (which we may generally call antisemitism) is that the semite is simtaneously rich and a beggar, like the charicature of the jew. they are "taking our jobs" so live on minimum wage, yet also steal benefits (which exist to be claimed for poor people anyway). the issue then is that there is an over-conformity to expectations. the rich jew is hated in a system based around money; the muslim is hated in a system based on seizing opportunities. just seems hypocritical. but here's a question - would you be happier with more paki shops or more paki workers?
>videoyouve never gotten drunk ot high before? 🤨
>>2385918Dude, run those plates through fucking MOT check, it's financed through MOBILITY FINANCE LTD. She's defrauding disability. She is on maximum Mobility PIP, yet somehow fine enough to go out and buy fucktonnes of NOS, wear expensive jewllery and do drugs, in a brand new car only bought 13 days ago. Max Mobility is that she can't really even go out without someone with her.
>>2385920It has to do with the left getting a brain and actually learning to do politics correctly and call out shit that pisses off the vast majority of the working class. Why in fuck when I was working full time, I was only earning 1800, while my fucking Landlord sat on his fat fucking ass getting 2600 in support from the Government + social housing, while collecting rent from me, my roommates and HIS OTHER PROPERTIES.
It's fucking absurd. My landlord, stealing from fucking fund for disabled people, and it's shit like that that will destroy a system actual people need to rely on, but the left do nothing to call out.
If the left actually showed some fucking spine on these issues, and didn't let the right control the entire fucking narrative, we would easily have far more support than we do.
The left needs to pull its head out of it's ass. The left represents CIVICISM, it represents the collective, the working class. Not fucking grifting lumpen fucking shitheads.
Every time we defend lumpen fucking bullshit (don't get me started on the lefts wailing and gnashing over poor dindunuttin Chris Kaba) our social cache is reduced to nothing.
Do we really want Reform or Labour or the Tories to control the entire narrative on this stuff?
>>2383169You are 100% right and the reason the Left doesn't give a shit is because of tribalism. They are very similar to liberals and RWs in that respect.
For example, many RWers deny global warming even though its an obvious issue and it affects them as well. Many Libs deny the issues with free markets and massive income inequality, once again extremely obvious issues that directly hurt them since many Libs are precarious middle class. Similarly, leftists ignore the wage suppression and civic deterioration aspect of immigration, no matter how obvious it is, because no matter what, you MUST not abandon your tribe.
However this tribalism is not invincible. The number of leftists who openly support immigration has declined, its more of a passive support now since they became acutely aware it is political poison. Immigration is now framed as "we need to focus on OTHER issues now" rather than "yes I love immigration and support it".
Ultimately you need to realize that the vast majority of leftists are either unserious people or cynical opportunists, and that real communists are a tiny percentage among leftists, less than 5% I would say.
>>2385935notice how you dodged my stipulation (you types are supposed to be good at "noticing", no?)
the people on the small boats - are they rich?
the people who jump into lorries or put themselves under cars. are they rich? also, you dont need to be smuggled in to claim asylum - you can show up legally by plane or boat. if they can afford this, why dont they do it? the paradox is exactly as i say - they are simultaneously rich and poor; stupid and conniving. this points to a contradiction your world view, which by standard logic, would require us to particularise the universal.
>are ALL asylum seekers rich?<no>then there is a difference between rich and poor >>2385973>The upper middle class ones move here legally, the lower middle class ones move here illegally because they have less money but still have more of it than the average working class third worlder. It’s really that simple. They are still rich.so answer this question.
are the small boat people rich? yes or no?
>>2385972>The main reason to regulate the reserve army of labor, so that wages are kept down. marx in capital vol. 1 says that the rate of wages is determined by the proportion of employed labour to unemployed, seeing how with less employment, there is a greater demand for labour, therefore wages are raised. paul cockshott attempts to empirically demonstrate this by seeing how rates of wages were highest during the black death. more lumpens RAISE wages, according to marx, therefore. marx speaks of the lowering of wages where irish immigrants lower labour power in accepting lower wages for themselves. this comports to keynes' findings; that full employment necessarily means lesser wages for each worker by proportion. the conflict between labour and capital thus confronts employment as an internal struggle.
>>2385974International communist party -
https://www.international-communist-party.org/This is the "leftcom"/"ultra" party.
Read this -
https://www.international-communist-party.org/English/TheCPart/TCP_064.htm#RESERVEStopping immigration prevents capitalism from regulating the reserve army of labor, which results in a destabilized capitalism, less wage suppression and makes it easier to be internationalist.
>>2385997ive seen footage of them leaving from french beaches, where french authorities wave them goodbye. doesnt take any money to do that.
>>2386000you think most asylum seekers are libyan….? most recent ones have come from pakistan and albania.
>>2385980>seeing how with less employment, there is a greater demand for labourLess AVAILABLE reserve of employable persons. Not less employment in general.
>more lumpens RAISE wages, according to marxWhat, this doesnt follow from what you just said before. Are you baiting me?
Lumpens take from the social product, and since its the bourgeois who regulate the social product, the lumpens take from the wage share, directly making the wage workers poorer while contributing nothing.
>>2386003It takes money to get from the Middle East to France, are you stupid?
Anyways
>The average yearly salary in Pakistan is around PKR 985,000, which translates to approximately $3,531 USD.So a Pakistani illegal migrant would certainly not be poor in Pakistan.
>In 2025, the average salary in Albania in USD is $500 monthly (£6000 a year)Although Albanian illegal migrants are known to usually be part of gangs so the gang could be paying for their smuggling.
>>2385226>its a last bastion of a bygone culture with zero connection to how people work in 2025 >its cool because the boomer locals actively and enthusiastically take part >p..p…pipe d dooown If I shout louder will it max out your hearing aid grandad? will the sound waves destroy the structural integrity of your zimmer frame you old codger bastard?
Tell me how all the communist parties attending this event has advanced in a real meaningful way labour or anti imperialist politics in the last 10 years
We are losing so bad you don't even know about it
>>2386011>Less AVAILABLE reserve of employable persons. Not less employment in general.so who is unable to work?
>Lumpens take from the social product, and since its the bourgeois who regulate the social product, the lumpens take from the wage share, directly making the wage workers poorer while contributing nothing.the welfare state never existed in marx's time
>>2386013>So a Pakistani illegal migrant would certainly not be poor in Pakistan.exactly, so why would a pakistani come here if he will be less well-off?
>>2386030He won’t. He’ll be able to get here and get on benefits and never work again in his life. The smugglers know that, and they themselves know that.
Pakistan doesnt have a welfare state.
>>2386050>imperialism is le good if it’s my group doing itRevenge politics are fascist.
>>2386052yes i agree
>>2386056you are contradicting yourself. either the migrants are stealing benefits on top of their great wealth, or they are searching for idle comfort in the first world. my position is that they want benefits, because its free money - not because its the baseline for their luxury spending. if you stopped benefits, infinity migration would necessarily stop therefore. this is what tony blaire did around 2003, and asylum seeking halved.
>>2386063There’s no contradiction, just because they’ve come here illegally doesn't mean they’ve suddenly lost contact with everyone they know from back home, which is where they could get some of their money back.
If all you had to do to never have to work again was pay a few grand and then cross over to another country on a boat, would you do it?
>what tony blaire did around 2003, and asylum seeking halved.Tony Blair is the worst example you could’ve picked for dealing with immigration. Immigration into the UK (legal or not) was much lower before he became PM.
>>2386073we have 100,000 asylum seekers entering the country every year. according to you, these are all rich people desparately seeking to live in british council homes. its a pure fantasy.
>If all you had to do to never have to work again was pay a few grand and then cross over to another country on a boat, would you do it? so not a single asylum seeker works, since all they do is take benefits. first, theyre stealing our jobs, then theyre not working at all. which is it? its funny, you search "deliveroo rider" on google and its the first time theyre happy to show you a white man 🤣 we all know who is working these jobs, so they cant be taking benefits either.
>blairhe is literally the only prime minister to ever deny asylum seekers special privileges. the tories after him flooded the country after the boris wave, and it continues now with keir starmer. the country would be much better off with blair in power.
>>2386073heres a story about it (vidrel)
illegal immigrants working for delivery services.
i think it would be preferable if the companies were charged with hiring uncertified labour rather than we blame people who go out to earn a living.
of course, trump os probably going to give illegal immigrants in USA amnesty after farm owners and service inustries complained to him that deportation means getting rid of slave labour. so capital has the conspiracy to hire illegal immigrants, yet its the immigrants themselves who are scapegoated. heres a suggestion then - fine companies who hire illegally, and the problem solves itself, no?
>>2386078>first, theyre stealing our jobs, then theyre not working at all. which is it? Both can be true. There exist proletarian immigrants who are bad because they swell the reserve army of labour, thus decreasing wages, and are overall far less likely to care about unionisation.
And then there are lumpen immigrants, who are bad due to being so subhuman it loops back around and they become equally as parasitic as the bourgeoisie.
I will say proletarian immigrants are preferable, as I'm less likely to get shanked by Polski Pavel the warehouseman than I am by any Somalian
>>2386092>how can you be "proletarian" and part of the "reserve" army of labour?Their willingness to work for lower rates, in worse conditions, for longer hours makes them preferable employees to natives. This creates underemployment among natives, as well as any immigrants who are left out of a job, which is of course to the benefit of the capitalist.
>yes, i already compared them to our native subhumanity If you have a rat problem you don't go and invite in more rats do you?
>its more noble labour than the service industry.I agree, and have worked those jobs myself, but good luck unionising them when 90% can't even speak English.
>>2386099> but good luck unionising them when 90% can't even speak English.More an issue is that they don't even like British people and are really just here because they were bored back home or it's a far easier way to comparatively make a lot of money for which they can send a large portion home, for some like Somalis, mostly just going to jump to Welfare. They really have no intention of integrating into the UK or dealing with British people long term, they will deal with their own and own communities for their entire lives. Some have lived here for decades and can't speak more than a few words of English.
In terms of Albanians, I dealt with Albanians personally A LOT and I mean a fucking LOT, lived next to Albanians, did plenty of driving and hanging out and partying with Albanians. They mostly look down on British people completely and think of the average Brit as trash. Reason they are here is frankly, crime related. Had one Albanian tell me that within a year (and this was years ago) he would have enough money to retire for good from his "hustle" and he was like 26, this was the same for a lot of them. Personally I got a lot well with Albanians, but again, they had no intention of ever integrating with Brits and mostly eventually wanted to just deal or pimp out girls until they got enough money to buy property in Italy.
Either way, I wouldn't care about Immigration so much, if there was any form again of Civic training and forced cultural assimilation, but the Neoliberal West has taken an atagonistic stance against Immigrants actually engaging in any form of local culture or civic norms at all, which is where much of the strife comes from. Like it or not, the state of ethnic enclaves, and high streets being overtaken by ethnic organized crime, is going to come to a boil with even mostly non-politicized normies at some point. Still think Housing though is what is going to be the fuse that blows up into massive social unrest, but Immigration/ethnic enclaves is not far behind that.
Man talking to Normies, something I find really annoying about the average British attitude is how the average Brit is against even basic fucking reforms because "Nah it's too hard, and they will probably fuck it up anyway", even in regards to basic shit that is easy as fuck to impelement, low cost, and would make things simpler. It reminds me of the US resistance to Metric, where they reject a far more simple, straight forward system, because they are too lazy to move on from their incoherent complicated system.
What I find pretty wild, is that even basic reforms from other Westminster Parliamentary states like Canada, Australia etc, get rejected offhand.. for again, that "meh probably too hard and they'll fuck it up", despite being tried and true tested reforms that function in a Westminster Parliamentary system. Even on "progressive" hang outs like Reddit, stuff like Devolution/Federalization is very frowned upon despite it being basically a required reform at this point for the Midlands/North, especially after the collapse of HS2.
The UK really feels like it's stuck in a period of extreme hypernormalization. Everyone knows everything is broken, but people are also rejecting the most common sense reforms that would actually lead to an improvement of life.
>>2386573UK is particularly bad, there is tonnes of shit they could do to drastically improve the system here.
Federalization of England to streamline a lot of the bullshit counties and council and whatever systems into a single layer of Government and allow regions to actually raise proper revenue streams and set their own agendas and build infrastructure, always gets rejected as "a new layer of Politicians" when in reality it's actually removing a lot of the ancient bloat and streamlining everything.
Changing elections from Thursday to a Saturday is just fucking common sense. Mandatory voting in Westminster elections.
Turning the house of lords into a proportional rep elected house.
These are all reforms that other Westminster systems have gone through, and they make for a far better and less fucked up system.
Singapore, another Westminster country has SOEs out the wazoo and the vast majority of house building is done by the Government.
For as much as people jerk off over Australia, it's wild people don't actually bother to push for a copy Australia's industrial relations laws.
>Weekend and overtime penatly rates (Saturday: 125% to 150% of the ordinary rate.Sunday: 150% to 200% of the ordinary rate.
Public Holidays: 225% to 250% of the ordinary rate.
Night shifts: 115% to 130% of the ordinary rate)
>Minimum Wages per industry (minimum wage "award" is set by industry rather than across the entire country) ( https://calculate.fairwork.gov.au/FindYourAward here you go, find out what you would be earning in Australia)and just tonnes of other stuff that makes Australia far more worker friendly than the UK, while incentivizing people to work harder.
But of course all "too hard" and the UK left is too pozzed to give a shit about anything but yelling "nationalization" at every issue and LGBT issues to actually create the argument that could maybe push through said reforms.
>>2387223Left going full slippery slope on them cost a lot of political capital and legitimacy the left had among normies.
Another is the point I've made tonnes of times before, the UK and Western left is an identity politics cargo cult, when in reality, Identity politics is ALWAYS a loser for the left. They literally were able to oust Jeremy fucking Corbyn and the turbo anti-racist labour left on racism allegations.
The left needs to stay out of these identity politics war issues because it can and will always be turned around and weaponized against us and all it takes is a few bad faith nutty idpol types to paint us all as crazy. Also frankly, LGBT, Racism, Feminism are not left issues to begin with, they are mainstream Liberal shit and you already have BILLIONS being poured into orgs to represent them. Councils, supermarkets, corporations all fly LGBT shit for half the year, name me a single time you saw a fucking council fly a red flag for workers.
The Western Left need to focus entirely on bread and butter economic, workers and structural reform issues, it should not really focus on liberal shit like identity at all.
The left has a massive credibilty issue, and its restoring credibility that the left should be focusing on. The only "culture" the left should care about is restoring basic civic norms and working hard to rebuild the material conditions of the British working class.
This is why I always say Western Leftists should study the CPC, but of course, Westoid left prefers study Tik Tok social trends instead.
>>2387240why should the west follow the east? we are a liberal nation by ethos. liberalism is literally a british concept, which is why it is incongruous to other nations, who are much lore tribal and closed-minded. ever notice how the most tribal nations are the biggest shitholes? what i worry about with the dissident right and tankie left is this temptation toward illiberalism. it works for russians and the chinese, but it doesnt work for us.
>economy > identityif you were prime minister, what would you do? just generally; its good to articulate power fantasies.
>>2387249Again, why should the left be focusing on completely mainstream, establishment supported shitlib issues? There is 1 socialist for every 10,000 LGBT activists, why in fuck is it up to Socialists to support those 10,000? Especially when they are sponsored by banks and corpos and all sorts?
Why should we also waste our political capital, on stuff that clearly is largely just pet issues shit out by mentally ill zoomers on Tumblr?
Also like I've pointed out before, Identity politics does not work out for the left at all, Idpol types always just use the left as a stepping stone to establishment liberal support because there is nothing really materially stopping liberal elites from supporting forced dildos up the ass of every guy or whatever. LGBT movement, used Socialists to get corporation and liberal support, and they won, they now get rainbow flag bombs dropped all over the middle east in their name, and they are a wealthy liberal demographic.
This is the same with black caucus, muslim caucus, jewish caucus. Immigrant Jews were a core left wing demo, but now they are a rusted on tory voting bloc because they used to left to craw themselves up, same with Hindus, same happening with Muslims.
Like I pointed out in my previous post, Culture war and Idpol is always flipped back around on us to damage us. Corbyn, the least racist person in the UK, was literally ousted from politics, due to bad faith weaponized racism allegations. The labour left was purged on bad faith racism allegations, and the left retreated into more cargo cult Idpol shit (literally trans issues became the number 1 issue among the left from 2019 to now) and we went from 45% support when our narrative was about nation building and infrastructure and workers rights, to literally not even being able to hit double digits.
>if you were prime minister, what would you do? just generally; its good to articulate power fantasies.Like I've said before, focus on improving UK political structures to make the society more efficient, nation building, improving workers rights, SOEs for house building, nationalizing essential services.
>>2387250Tories were the ones that literally enshrined LGBT rights in this country. They now wave pride flags at the fucking RNC. These are liberal issues with broad normie right wing indifference too, not left wing ones.
>>23872211:30 in and it’s already ironic in that they’ve said the threats are China, Russia, Iran and North Korea who don’t pose a direct military threat to the UK but are challenging the current “world order”. So despite our constant remembrance of how pointless the cause of WW1 seems in hindsight, we’re essentially now gearing ourselves up for WW3 because China is winning industrial contracts in Africa or Russia might have a military presence much further beyond its own territories, whereas we believe only we in the west may have that privilege and we’re willing to go nuclear to enforce that.
Why should people be invested in that at all? Willing to sacrifice all life on Earth over that?
>>2387253There is no point the left spending poltical capital on these sorts of culture issues at all. Vote for it if it comes up, but it really shouldn't be part of a leftist lexicon, especially when we don't have power and there are issues with 10000x more pressing importance.
>>2387254Nope, LGBT stuff literally killed the UK left. We went from 45% in the polls, dominated economic discourse in this country, to literally just being a fringe LGBT/Palestine cargo cult that doesn't even poll 10% in the polls, while reform gobbles up all the normies. Idpol was used to massively purge the left. LGBT is one of the basis for suppression of Pro-Palestine movement ("They throw gays of buildings!").
All the important LGBT rights have been won, LGBT stuff has massive corporate and establishment upper class support. It is not an issue we should be wasting political capital on, especially when the left lets fucking Tumblrite spoonies and crazies set the boundaries.
It's not just LGBT stuff though, the left should not be wading into culture war issues at all. Idpol is toxic waste and has honestly, been a noose around the neck of the left for a long time. Lets not beat around the bush, Corbyn and thousands of professional, experience leftist activists, were smeared, and proscribed, using Idpol reverse uno as the basis.
>>2387255It's just empire nostalgia copium honestly. The UK elite desperately want a "good war" to pretend it's WW2 again and the UK has something to be proud of and spend 10k on a single commeroative plaque on a park bench for boomers.
Empire nostalgia is one of the big issues with British political mindset. Instead of setting goals of being a moderately prosperous society, it's trying to impossibly reassert British Imperial dominance.
>>2387240>This is why I always say Western Leftists should study the CPC, but of course, Westoid left prefers study Tik Tok social trends instead.I can absolutely back putting economic/class issues in the foreground but it baffles me when people talk about following Eastern countries in this regard. Discrimination against LGBT+ people is rife in China. And anecdotally, if someone posts a video of a black person on Chinese social media the comment section will be filled with people posting slurs.
I don't disagree economic class needs to be the primary focus but it seems like there is a risk for how minorities are treated to regress. I don't see why there shouldn't be a balance when covering these issues.
>>2387251>Was it intentional to have this situation explained by someone who sounds like a tellytubby?You, and the other geriatric commenters parroting the same nonsense, can get in the bin. Literally no reason a young woman shouldn't be able to present this.
Even if you care about "optics" a point made in the video is that conscription is not likely anytime soon, so why would a "tough" voice be required?
>>2387263>Erm out of order to the young women I thinkIt’s just an interesting choice to have a discussion of WW3 and the threat the UK is supposedly under presented with a voice better suited to BBC Bitesize revision videos.
It’s just horses for courses I suppose
>>2387297You haven’t seen literally miles of boarded up Debenhams either, the point is that the powers that be seem to want the correlation in people’s minds to be that the accelerating economic decay the nation has experienced in the last two decades coincides with the rise of “woke” that right-wing movements are simply just picking up on. Suggesting the problem is not neoliberal economic policy, but just the looney left caring more about immigrants, LGBT people, people with “fake” mental health issues, etc than providing the masses with better living standards. It’s kind of flipping Corbyn’s “for the many, not the few” slogan on its head to give it a ein land, ein volk, ein fuhrer vibe, by claiming woke corbynista metropolitans aren’t the many, it’s the “sensible” people like JK Rowling’s followers.
>>2387347>so just wait a few years? why should communists help skilled professionals just because they arent being competitive enough?Because we support organising the proletariat. That is the basis of the real movement. Doctors are proletarianised in this country.
>>2387356>this used to be called "middle class", but is now lauded as "greed" by politiciansNot even just that, they are still poorer than they were a decade ago.
>>2387358>we have the NHS. who do you think sets prices?The Australian healthcare system.
>>2387367It’s part of a broader attack on intelligence which that anon is demonstrating for us nicely, that because doctors and other kind of graduates can be assumed to do quite well for themselves (circa 1980s mind you) it’s only fair that they be handicapped with education costs, higher taxes and lower wages. With the pitch essentially being
>They’re going to shit on you one day when they’re wealthy, so let’s shit on them now while we canBut it’s gotten to the point where doctors and graduates generally do not do well for themselves for the vast majority of their careers, if ever. Prior to IR35 though the non-graduate Mondeo men of Britain were all committing tax fraud and upgraded themselves to 3-Series men with retirement homes in Spain, but they’re the salt of the earth you see.
>>2387323Pay erosion for doctors has been egregious. Though there are also other issues plaguing the profession.
Doctors are being replaced with Advanced Clinical Practioners and Physician Associates - who are less capable of doing work and have received less teaching. It is an interesting situation where they are cheaper than resident doctors more advanced in their training (e.g. registrars) but more expensive than doctors starting to work (e.g. foundation year doctors). This is particularly bizarre because Physician Associates do not do out-of-hour work, and are not legally permitted to prescribe or order scans - they rely on doctors (usually foundation year doctors) to prescribe/order for them, who therefore take the legal risk.
Additionally, doctors who graduated in the UK are more commonly finding it impossible to enter a specialty training programme to advance in grade (e.g. foundation year to medical/surgical training). Training post numbers have not gone up significantly but in the last few years applications for these posts have been opened up to every doctor in the world - with no prioritisation for UK graduates. Ratio of applications (orange) vs number of training posts (blue) has shot up a ridiculous degree. Anecdotally, only 11% of my foundation year went straight through into training; I'd say over 70% of those who didn't go into training have gone to Australia.
Not being able to advance in your training is bad enough, but because of the increase in recruiting Advanced Clinical Practioners and Physician Associates, the number of locally employed posts (i.e. non-training jobs) for doctors is also decreasing leading to a very real risk of unemployment.
Governments appeal to the public (who don't have knowledge of this issue) by saying they will increase the number of medical school places - which actually makes the issue worse.
The medical profession is in a dire place in the UK at present.
>>2387420Medicines can have interactions with 100s of other medicines.
Doesn't mean the interaction is significant.
Or better yet, the interaction may have never happened - just purely theoretical.
Blaming the pharmaceutical company for writing a warning label is laughable.
>>2387272Post Corbyn.
left squandered the Corbyn momentum and the fact we actually had massive popular support in terms of our economic program, for going balls deep into fringe Tumblr LGBT politics and BLM bullshit.
It still astonishes me the left went into Covid with all the momentum, and Covid, 100% played right into our hands, and the entire left fumbled the ball so hard it literally set us back to ground zero.
It's not just LGBT stuff, that is just an egregious one as an example in the UK, BLM was another major bullshit one, why in fuck Leftists thought it was a great idea to Stan antisocial murderous driveby shooting roadmen is fucking mind boggling to me. Don't also get started on the downplaying of Rape Gangs.
Frankly, the left is extremely immature and naive to the point of absurdity when it comes to cultural and identity issues, and it's just something we should not focus on at all.
Bread and butter economic issues, workers rights, structural reforms, housing crisis and Climate Change with the only cultural input being on enforcement of civicism are all the big narratives, the entire left should be going 100% hard on.
An easy big win for the left to get some cred honestly could be something as fucking simple as an anti-litter campaign since Keep Britain Tidy has been defunded to the point of 2 people in a single rented out room. But again, the left just doesn't give a fuck about bread and butter shit that would actually have broad support.
>>2387561fr fr
these white boys pretending like it wasn't the crakkkkas who chose Boris "I'm an exuberant defender of the banks" Johnson over Corbyn by a resounding majority. Yakubian scum have been voting for Tories for centuries.
>>2387584>corbyn's new partyyou havent fallen for it, have you? 🤣
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/jul/12/zarah-sultana-launches-fundraising-drive-for-new-leftwing-party>Zarah Sultana has launched a fundraising drive and supporter sign-up page under her own name as she pushes on with plans for the formation of a new leftwing party.>After Sultana announced her co-leadership plan, Corbyn made a separate statement noting “discussions were ongoing”. Concerns were fuelled by the fact that the movement lacked wider solid infrastructure, with some organisers fearing Sultana might retain ownership of the data and donations in the absence of them.>The announcement being made without an agreement was described as “childlike behaviour” by a small few involved in the organisation of the nascent party.>Corbyn’s Peace and Justice Project, which has more than 50,000 subscribers, will remain a separate entity and is not expected to support the broader movement.corbyn is not forming a new party; sultana is just scamming people out of their money by her speculativr anouncement.
>>2387551His economic policies were actually very popular with his voters and the members who joined the party during his leadership
>whining about broadband communismYou’re both focusing on why centrist boomers didn’t vote for him and it’s true that centrist boomers (read: the centre-right) thought Corbyn represented both “PC gone mad” social policies and “British Rail sandwiches” economic policies. But that was their problem with him just as much as when he was up against Theresa May as when he was up against Boris and Keir.
I personally don’t think he lost all that much support based on his actual policies or demeanour, I think it’s that there was a lot of excitement and people ready for radical change at the start that waned simply because no one can stay that excited or invest in parliamentary politics for years, especially after not becoming PM after the snap election. Exacerbated by the relentless dooming and fear mongering of being unelectable and spreading rumours of only being supported by middle class white people, being secretly rich, being a Russian spy, etc.
The media is just very good at making people extremely bored with a candidate that better represents their interests while being just as good as having people edging-until-their-bollocks-are-bursting excitement over a leader who doesn’t. Both Boris and Trump had relatively lengthy periods between first being considered by the press for PM/POTUS and actually making it so, but at no point did anyone start to express boredom and thus doubt that either were electable or even desirable in the intervening years, it was hype hype hype all the way.
You’ve got to strike while the iron is hot and the powers that be can decide whether in the years between elections your iron remains in the fire or if it’s put in a bucket of cold water.
>>2387561We didn't hold power, but we had controlled the narrative to the point Johnson had to pretend to be econ left.
We could have continued the Corbyn left movement into an actual economic program, but the left instantly ricocheted into LGBT and BLM and further idpol culture war crap.
>>2387551Yes, Brexit and bad faith idpol in "antisemitism" allegations killed Corbyn, but the movement still controlled largely the narrative at the time. Like I said above, Even Tories started spruiking Northern powerhouse and renationalization and a bunch of Corbyn-style policies. Did they implement them? No of course not, but we did hold the narrative zeitgeist.
>>2387573What I said above would go a long way to fix the UK economy, of course shitlibs like Gary and the rest of Breadtube will never actually push any major policy framework.
Honestly, I wish I had the money and time to actually run a political campaign, because frankly, it's wild watching the entire "left" flail around without any narrative when basic answers are just right there for the picking.
We really are going to have a Reform Government and then the left will become "Vote Red/Lib Dem no matter who".
>>2387597Even before Sultana it was already being talked about. Idk what's the hold up.
>>2387598>His economic policies were actually very popular with his voters and the members who joined the party during his leadershipNo fucking shit. It is outside of the core Corbynites that struggled to like Corbyn's econ policies with the constant bad press. That anon is doing history revisionism by claiming that his manifesto's policies were wildly popular. 2017 sure, and arguably saved Corbyn's skin but 2019 was too radical for the general public.
>>2387605> but the movement still controlled largely the narrative at the timeYou are fucking lying. Corbyn never captured the narrative and was always on the defensive. People were constantly asking him where is his money tree, whether he was going to nationalise Greggs and whether he was a Leninist
and his fucking hat.
>started spruiking Northern powerhouse and renationalization and a bunch of Corbyn-style policiesNo they didn't. Boris might have dabbled in some One Tory nation but his campaign was solely Brexit, brexit, brexit.
You are constructing an ahistorical narrative on thin air.
>>2387612>It is outside of the core Corbynites that struggled to like Corbyn's econ policies with the constant bad press.Or the innate alarmism the electorate has about being forced to pay for everything via taxes, again, not a problem for everyone outside of middle-class-centre-right-boomer core of British electorialism, since they’re generally not in the tax brackets considered at risk of hikes, nor is there much fear that Corbyn was going to help the disenfranchised by taxing the shit out of them.
Again, you’re focusing on the “I’m alright jack” crowd as though that’s representative of the population and not the established voting demographic that no one believes is representative of the people Corbyn appealed to. If we’re having a discussion about Corbyn-era labour and how that affected the British left, then why are we talking about the opinions of people who were already praying for his assassination before he’d even been properly elected as Labour leader?
>>2387621Yea the people who would have benefit from Corbyn's policies are either too apathetic to vote or hates immigrants and minorities more.
>why are we talking about the opinions of people who were already praying for his assassination before he’d even been properly elected as Labour leader?I am pushing back the misconception that Corbyn's economic policies were popular during his time as Labour leader, they were never popular outside of his core supporters.
concerns over "two tier" justice are raised with this story from the telegraph:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/04/30/small-boat-migrant-spared-jail-punching-female-police-offic/an intoxicated, knife-wielding migrant, attacks two female officers, giving them bruises to the face (the officers are reported as fearing for their lives). he was approached for being positively identitied as carrying a dangerous weapon (so is guilty of a crime before the conflict). for all this, he was brought to court and was handed a 1 year suspended sentence (meaning that he will not go to jail as long as he behaves for 1 year). he was also ordered to pay just £250 to each female officer, in instalments from the government allowance he receives as an asylum seeker. this is compared against the sentencing of lucy connolly, who received a 31 month sentence without appeal for sending offensive tweets, to highlight the disproportionate punishment for certain crimes and for certain offenders.
do we have preferential treatment in the UK?
>>2387607Basically like I proposed above.
>Federalization of The UK into 10 states.>Each state follows the function of US/AU/CAN states, has it's own judiciary, can set it's own laws (though federal laws override), set it's own revenue raising streams, most Council functions are absorbed into state structures, Councils will be left picking up fucking bins and maintaing parks and doing some basic regulatory enforcement on developments.>Set up Government State Owned Enterprise for housing development, set up factories up north for Prefab modular housing. Goal should be 250k council housing and 250k affordable housing a year minimum through the SOE alone. Bring in Chinese and Singaporean specialists to set this up.>Sign up to Belt and Road.>Ram through HS2 and start by connecting Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester, Liverpool, then final leg to Birmingham.>Ram through HS3 to the South West.>Tender out development of these to Chinese firms. Noone else should be trusted especailly after the HS2 disaster.>Pump money into rewilding AONBs/National Parks, allow camping, drive Eco Tourism. >Strengthen Industrial Relations laws>Introduce mandatory Penalty Rates for Weekend, Night and overtime work.>Scrap singular National Minimum wage, reset Minimum wage by industry.>Replace workplace pensions with Union Industry Superfunds.>Replace House of Lords with Senate that is elected by Proportional Representative vote, each state gets 1 senator per 500k population.>Revoke bullshit Sunday trading laws.>Have the Night Czar publically flogged then crucified. Pump a lot of money and reforms to restore UK nightlife and music. UK used to dominate global music culture.>Immigration reform to prioritize CANZUK remove most visa costs and restrictions on CANZUK beyond the NHS surcharge.>Reform Welfare system, actually hire people to properly investigate fraud.>Massive civicism programs across the board, anti litter campaigns, clean community campaigns, good manners campaigns.>Forced breaking up of Ethnic Enclaves>Forced Reeducation for people who do not assimilate, speak english etc.>Reintroduce Corbyn's police hiring policies and massively boost UK policing.>Royal Commission into Shai Masot and the Israel Lobby.>Royal Commission into Ghislaine Maxwell.>Royal Commission into child sexual abuse in religious communities.>Forced Tree planting along paths and in cities and towns to lower heat.>Government funded awnings program for houses due to heat. (This should be done before A/C)>Remove boomer welfare, Triple lock in particular is fucking GONE.Really for the UK, Housing is the big one, solve the housing crisis and you really do solve most of the UK's current economic woes.
Of course, all this stuff is basic Social Democratic stuff, but I think it's what the left should first be pushing to gain credibility, before moving towards more radical positions. If the Left can even get some of these pushed through, it would show we are a much more serious force than pretty much the rest of the political fucking clownshow.
>>2387612>Idk what's the hold up.its not happening; read the guardian article:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/jul/12/zarah-sultana-launches-fundraising-drive-for-new-leftwing-partysultana is "fundraising" atm, meaning that you need to give her money to see if she will be assed to do anything with the funds. in all likelihood, she will picket the funds then piss off into early retirement.
>>2387629>they were never popular outside of his core supporters.Yeah but you’re saying that as though that’s just the membership of Momentum or audience of the Morning Star and not the numbers that gave Labour one of its biggest turnouts for an election in its history and its biggest surge in membership numbers.
You’re both committing the standard reactionary twattery of trying to rewrite history based on personal preferences
>I didn’t like that he was too woke!>I didn’t like that he was going to shake the money tree! To explain why Corbyn failed and the left has lost its popularity by referring to standard centre-right vote swingers as evidence of having the correct take. Do you really think the landlord/landlord adjacent/landlord aspirant slice of the electorate would have backed Corbyn under any economic policy that helps tenants over landlords in any way?
>>2387642I mean, Australia, Canada has done bunch of these, a lot of these are tried and tested from other Westminster Countries. This is why I call many of these "Common sense".
Of course you are right, I would also call for a Royal Commission into sexual abuse and hazing in elite public schools, but that would probably cause an entire elite meltdown. Last time that topic was brought up Steven Fry went fucking nuclear at anybody who dared think you should not be allowed to rape kids in boarding schools.
>>2387638Last few paragraphs says it is happening soon.
>>2387643So what man. They still lost by a wide margin!
>I didn’t like that he was going to shake the money tree!Bitch are you for fucking real? I never said I was upset at his 2019 manifesto. In fact I found it fantastic with his employee ownership scheme a bit underwhelming. I am only making the claim that his economic policies did not win him any votes, and he lost solely on Brexit and "Antisemitism.". Also infighting within the party as well.
>Do you really think the landlord/landlord adjacent/landlord aspirant slice of the electorate would have backed Corbyn under any economic policy that helps tenants over landlords in any way?No? UK is too classcucked to stop the social suicide they are undergoing. They would
and should die than vote for a socialist.
>>2387666How is it wrong? Polling didn't even increase significantly when he announced his 2019 manifesto
>>2387674We will see if it appears. I am not as pessimistic as you.
>>2387262>Discrimination against LGBT+ people is rife in China.No more than in the West.
>>2387395>Medical AI will soon replace them anyways.Not soon. Or urine trouble.
>>2387597>*links to Guardian*🫵😐 Detain and torture this poster.
>>2387809the political left ≠ communism
learn your history
>>2386073>>2386063as i reference, you can see where blair halved asylum seeking numbers in 2003 from this graph:
>>2387837he halved it by revoking benefits. empirically then, this would prove to be a disincentive that is replicable.
>>2381628>youth voters are notoriously unreliable support base because most will grow into Libdem/Centrist types as they move into their 40s.This just isn't true anymore. It's something that only works if you've got some kind of access to the sort of material interests that make you more conservative - too poor to buy a house? stuck renting forever? yeah, your material interests don't suddenly get Tory.
It's not a completely impossible outcome, sure, inshallah Labour will collapse and the Lib Dems are more likely to become the center-left party of choice than Corbyn or the Greens, which would technically get you that outcome. But more likely, present economic circumstances are going to keep pushing people left.
https://www.ft.com/content/c361e372-769e-45cd-a063-f5c0a7767cf4(too lazy to convert the chart from fake-jpeg to real jpeg and upload it.)
>>2381809>What wins or loses an election in the UK is the favour of the formerly industrialised working-class, the former 'red-wall', This is complete and utter bollocks. Labour have always been on the back foot in UK elections despite this group theoretically being a core part of the Labour base. 1951, 1955, 1959, 1970, 1979, 1983, 1987, 1992, 2010, 2015 and to a large extent 2017 were all elections that Labour lost despite retaining the red wall seats - whether as industrialized working class seats, or as post-industrial seats. It's only post-2019 that this stupid myth has cropped up that they're electorally important - half the reason Labour alienated them was because they weren't, so they were taken for granted! It's the Scotland story all over again! (Nearly all Labour's UK-wide wins have the same outcome absent Scotland) Delete every single red wall seat and you know who wins 2024? Keith!
The worst part is that Labour play in to this bollocks themselves, they pivot right on immigration and alienate a good chunk of their actual base. A golden opportunity stood before the party to become the party of both working and middle class, but frankly, to become the party of younger people against increasingly Conservative older people, at a time when voting demographics aren't really shifting with age as they used to - in short, to lock in the kind of permanent-easy victories that the Tories once used to face. Instead, they've fucked it so badly that we can seriously talk about the possibility of the party collapsing.
(Incidentally, if you look abroad, this kind of middle-class centered coalition is why New Zealand Labour has been much more electorally successful than UK Labour since the 1980s. The working class alone just don't give you the numbers you need. Amusingly, NZ Labour is also less reactionary in all aspects.)
I mean the counter argument to your view is all but self-demonstrating: Keir Starmer is much more rhetorically harsh on immigration than Corbyn, and he's somehow managing to poll below Corbyn at his worst despite not even having the press trying to make him kill himself yet.
>>2383119University shitlibs are a much bigger demographic than you think. 33.8% of people have a uni degree (Starmer won the election with 33.7% of the vote on 59% turnout, i.e. ~20%!) and ~50% of young people go to uni. (e.g, in the long-run you're looking at half the electorate going to uni.)
>>2383220>i still hold confidently that anti-migrant rhetoric is fundamentally reactionary, tho i suppose there is a distinction to be made there between position towards migrants in the country and policy towards continued immigration. This is ultimately my view. I do not care what immigration policy you have, but if you adopt anti-immigration rhetoric you're out.
>>2383309>>2383405Britain is a home to
several specific people. We don't give a fuck about preserving Scottish (itself subdivisible) or Welsh culture, or English regional culture. Indeed, the whole project of having an overarching "British" culture (one nation!? one people!?) seeks to erase these differences and homogenize it all into some 2012 olympic opening ceremony tea and biscuits slop.
Frankly, I'd rather pay Jizya. If my culture is to be destroyed by migrants (and frankly, I've never felt any risk of this happening - my culture's been destroyed by good old economic circumstance in an area with population decline) for fuck sakes, at least make sure they're not middle class English wankers.
>>2384634>(1) reverse devolution to limit the amount of councillors and MPs which are able to operateif anything, Britain should be more regionalised. centralization is
the British ideology.
>>2385915>Pretty sure if you are running a business, or running around as a fucking LANDLORD, you should not be in social fucking housing, or qualify for max mobility.Why not? social housing should fundamentally be open to everyone. in the 1970s 1/3 of the population lived in social housing and a good chunk of the rest were owner-occupiers, with some reason to hope the long-term trend was even more towards social housing expansion, the abolition of private-sector landlordism, and declining share of owner-occupation as social housing tenancies were secured.
moreover, why (by definition) should a business owner or landlord not qualify for max mobility? are you really telling me it's impossible to run a business or collect fat cheques while being mobility impaired?
the principle behind PIP is that you should be no worse off if you have a disability, regardless of your income. there is nothing wrong with this principle - a lot wrong with society, sure, few people should be business owners and none should be landlords - but the principle is sound.
>>2385949"Real communists" are basically non-existent. if they existed, they'd be thinking less about their ideal system of border controls, and more about the very fundamental basics of org building. you have to compete with every other possible thing people could do with their time, how are you going to make that worthwhile?
Uhh, scary and boring and difficult and sounds like work and doesn't satisfy the itch to identity-build via politics, let's go back to drawing up the manifesto for the True Workers Communist Party of Britain Marxist Leninist.
>>2387240You're willfully naive and lazy. If you could get over your gut-feeling distaste for LGBT issues, you'd see a lot of illustration of how power really works in the UK from its pivot to a reactionary stance on "LGBT Issues" (really "T issues"). In America, the right hates 'em and the libs tolerate 'em, that's the way of the world - but in Britain, the right hates 'em and the libs hate 'em too. A venn diagram of "Anti Corbyn" and "Anti Trans" in the UK establishment is basically a circle. If you want, you can read off this consent manufacturing as proof that the left need to throw these people under the bus (look how quickly support dropped once the press universally turned against this minority!) and be done with it, but you're really skipping a chance to see how the sausage is made.
Companies fly a rainbow flag not because they are pro-LGBT, but because there is pressure from below (mostly from younger people) to be pro-LGBT, and the easiest way to recuperate that pressure is to pretend you support it - look to America for what happens when it suddenly poses a risk to profit margins to behave that way.
You want to put idpol back in its box and lead an idealized coalition of the historical working class. It ain't happening. The public today are deeply unaesthetic, deeply unserious people. You can win and maybe you can even change things, that's doable, but you're never getting the aesthetics back.
>>2387252"Racism allegations" don't have power, powerful people have power. notice how keir starmer remains prime minister despite (tee-hee) 'accidentally' aping enoch powell. notice how our beloved equalities body found that Labour is institutionally antisemitic (yet somehow, magically, immediately stopped being antisemitic under Starmer) but the Tories are not institutionally islamophobic.
notice, frankly, how our equalities and human rights body (libs, right?) tells people they just need to suck it up and accept they've got fewer rights.
You think trans issues are cargo cult nonsense at a time when the supreme court bends over backwards to change the law without legislation to meet the demands of newspaper proprietors. why, if it's all establishment supported shitlib nonsense, is the establishment going out of its way to fuck these people? why is Theresa May the last PM to make vaguely positive noises about trans rights? do you think perhaps the reason it became the number 1 issue after 2019 might have something to do with the fact that our leaders pivoted sharply against these people starting in 2019? just a thought!
>>2387257Counterpoint: Corbyn was polling 45% on a pro-Palestine, pro-LGBT, economically left wing platform lead by a basically agreeable guy. Starmer backs Palestinian genocide, hates Transgender people, and wants the economic status quo, and he's polling like shit. The Greens barely get any media attention, and Corbyn clearly doesn't want his own party, so they're polling like shit.
"They throw gays off buildings" is something that not a single person takes seriously. It's a stupid right-wing gotcha.
Idpol was used to attack Corbyn because it was specifically hurtful to Corbyn, because he's a fairly progressive sort of guy. Notice how Boris Johnson wasn't brought down in the same manner despite being guilty of far worse. You're focusing on the color of the assassin's gun when you should be looking for who writes his cheques.
>>2387605By what means would you "continue the Corbyn left movement into an actual economic program"?
Start a new party? Dead end, Corbyn wouldn't jump. He was desperate to get back into Labour.
Inside Labour? Ha! There's no intervening period between Corbyn leaving and the right taking full control of the party and stripping all the democracy out of it.
Don't give me your program, give me actual organizational practicalities. You're given direct control over every single left-wing Labour member - what do you have them do?
>>23876122019 wasn't too radical, it just got much worse press.
the UK is not a democracy, the 2019 election should not be read as a democratic representation of how people felt. the 2019 election is what happens when all the instruments of power are directed to securing a Labour loss, just as 2024 is what happens when they're all directed towards securing a Labour victory.
If you want to be bleak, 2017 was not a big left-win, it was a big establishment L. they thought that Corbyn would inherently alienate people so they gave him a reasonably fair go - just let him talk and the public will see he's nuts and crush him. that was the strategy of the press and the strategy of the Labour right - let him lose, make him own the loss, and then roll him. that didn't happen, instead it turned out that the public liked what they heard, and that scared the life out of the people who matter.
>>2388715Holy shitlibbery. Immigration is bad because it hurts wages and also the recent immigrants have garbage civic values. There is nothing reactionary about this statement.
You've decided you wanna go down with the Titanic rather than learn anything about the history of worker parties/socialist parties stance on immigration.
>>2388086I'm not a Social Democrat at all lmao. It's that I believe the current Western left is a complete and total fucking joke counter-culture that wraps Punk in the aesthetics of old Socialist movements to be counter cultural and edgy.
The reason I propose the left actually be involved in politiics, is to improve credibility with the working classes, build trust and most importantly, gain experience.
The current Western Left could not organize a fuck in a brothel. If the Revolution came tomorrow, do you honestly believe the Left would even be a meaningful faction?
Bolsheviks, Mensheviks, CPC were all serious political organizations that had very real political experience, organization, essentially ran entire dual power structures and were all born largely out of the radical wing of Social Democratic movements. There is nothing like that in the Western Left today. The average Western Leftist hasn't even spoken to a non-university educated person in any sort of deep political conversation.
>>2388717If immigration is bad, the correct approach is to quietly cut it while still making warm noises about immigrants. I do not care about immigration, but I rarely find myself annoyed by immigrants and regularly find myself annoyed by wankers bleating about immigration. (I don't know if you've noticed, but the country is currently being run into the ground by one.)
As a passenger on the titanic, I have no choice but to go down with it. Fortunately, I can sit here arguing that it's sinking because we hit an iceberg while some people insist what's really happened is that we've lost a propeller.
>>2388719Current "western" culture in general is wrapped in punk and anti-establishment sentiment in a transparently false way. The fake deal of the 1980s is, in essence, concession to and recuperation of a historical youth movement in exchange for integrating it totally into a somehow-more-reactionary economic structure than the one they felt alienated from.
In terms of left-building, this is something you're stuck with. Is it incongruous to have radical anarchist furry trans punks for slightly better weekend railway services to northern shitholes? Yeah, sure, but incongruity isn't a fatal sin, especially in the internet age. nobody's going to turn down better trains because you showed them a picture of a weirdo.
If you want to build a viable left, you've got to think about incentives rather than aesthetics. All parties have bad incentives, incentives to LARP rather than to build. You've got to start smaller, build class consciousness bit-by-bit. Maybe by the time you're 60 it'll be time for a party.
>>2388682> But more likely, present economic circumstances are going to keep pushing people left.I generally agree, but if material circumstances stablize, then the left is absolutely fucked and will lose their base. Like it or not, the average University educated person comes out on average a million pounds better off than the non-Uni educated. I've watched friend after friend after friend over the years, lose all their Socialist/left wing values and move on to become a centrist, if not a Wet tory, as they moved into better paying jobs and home ownership. Even watched friends who were Hardcore Environmentalists, become "Actually fracking is great and environmentally safe and clean coal is the future" when they got jobs basically greenwashing mining and such operations.
>33.8% of people have a uni degree Still don't particularly like dealing with this Demographic through as a base. I will always from my experience, view them as unreliable. Another is they are centralized too much into little pockets, and Uni itself is it's own form of brainwashing. If you are able to get regular normies on board, then Uni students will follow.
>Why not? social housing should fundamentally be open to everyone. in the 1970s Not the 1970s anymore. People like that are stealing from a struggling, overleveraged fund that is designed for severely disabled people, not LARPing spoonies who seemingly make up a huge portion of Zoomers, landlords and fucking boomers. If we had an excess of social housing, if social welfare was not in the absolute dire state it is, then sure, it's fine, but that isn't the current situation. It's stealing from the worst off in life.
> If you could get over your gut-feeling distaste for LGBT issues, you'd see a lot of illustration of how power really works in the UK from its pivot to a reactionary stance on "LGBT Issues"Don't care, LGBT shit along with most Idpol is pure wrecking, deeply unserious, deeply anti-materialistic. Idpol, has never, ever benefited the left. It was the Campaign Against White Chauvinism that led into McCarthyism, LGBT, Disability and Racism shit more recently wrecked against Bernie in both 2016 and 2019, "Antisemitism" idpol destroyed Corbyn then the entire left pivoted from a winning narrative into "um, kids actually have fully formed self identity and we should medicalize that and saying otherwise is fascism despite in all other psychology we don't even identify such disorders until early adulthood for obvious fucking reasons, also Chris Kaba was a hero and didndunuttin and anyone who doesn't think we should build a 100 ft statue to him is a Fascist, kneel to BAME, Medievial Britain was black". I mean, for fuck sake, the way the left is, it's no shocker that Spycops found that much of the British left leadership was fucking Met and MI5.
>"Racism allegations" don't have power, powerful people have powerYes, but racism allegations and Idpol is the justification cover they gave to destroying a popular, largely grassroots movement. It's the cover they give for ripping away our rights day by day on behalf of Israel and the pathologically Zionist, bad faith Jewish community. Most people eventually fell for them, I talked about my co-workers about it, and it was just the sheer weight of Idpol, that eventually gave it legitimacy. Where there is smoke, there is fire.
Also frankly, the left is fucking dogshit at countering this because Idpol plays exactly into all the Lefts weakenesses. It's mostly moralistic, it anti-materialist, it plays on oppressor-oppressed dynamic most of the left operates on, it plays on "minorities are perfect and whitey is always evil" the left generally operates on. You see this with even the Israel criticism, where Leftists are too much of fucking cowards to call out Judaism and the Jewish community or Jews, instead coming up with the fucking ridiculous claim that Israel has NOTHING to do with Judaism, when it's literally the fucking political application of it. Read Devarim and tell me Israel is not the personification of fucking >By what means would you "continue the Corbyn left movement into an actual economic program"?
I'll go into detail in a later post. But the left should have maintained a pure bread and butter narrative, especially during Covid when state civicism was the core of mainstream narrative. I also believe that leftist parties should have come to an agreement on largely an economic platform, and ran as a coalition party that allows free voting on social issues, immigration etc. Really hate to be that guy. But time is running out. Climate Change and the Far-Right having all the grassroots momentum really puts a timer on us sitting on our ass reading and splitting over minute theory. The left needs to gain credibility with normies and fast, because frankly, in terms of "The Revolution", I (along with the Pentagon Minerva program) thinks it's coming a lot sooner than people think. Most likely between the 2040s-2060s.
>>2388731Cross reference the % of people saying immigration is the biggest issue facing the country with the amount of time the press and politicians (one and the same) spend talking about immigration. You'll notice that the % tracks press/politicians much more closely than it tracks immigration numbers. "What people think" is an output of a system designed to shape public opinion, not an input to it.
In one sense, you will not get into power regardless, so you may as well oppose the status-quo mongers. In the other, if you've built an organization that can take on the press and current politicians, you've got nothing to fear.
An easy get out clause would be to say "ah, but to build such an org requires being anti-immigrant" - but that's nonsense. Like saying the SNP would never-ever-ever win Scotland because in 1999 only 27% of Scots wanted independence. They understood, as we should, that public opinion is an output - not an input. Don't accept your enemies framing.
>>2388709marx himself disavowed "marxism", so its not surprise:
>Just as Marx used to say, commenting on the French "Marxists" of the late [18]70s: "All I know is that I am not a Marxist."https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1890/letters/90_08_05.htm>>2388715>UK should be more regionalisedi am not pro-segregation so have to disagree
>>2388787isn't it weird how all the papers are reporting on this local non-story and how the school has immediately folded. they didn't even do anything wrong: their flyer said it has to reflect your nationality/family heritage, and nobody is ethnically british. she should've gone dressed as white english, then she'd be fine. moreover
>Any outfits that were worn had to be "appropriate for a school setting", the post added, and had to hold cultural significance. the idea that the school did anything wrong is the biggest possible condemnation of "british" culture. come back dressed for morris dancing, then we'll talk.
she should've been banned because her dress is ugly. why people love to stick the (perfectly fine) british flag on clothes and cushions and other stuff where it looks like dogshit is beyond me. it's not so comically complicated that it works (like america) and it's not so neutral that you can get away with it (like Qaddafi's Libya), it's in the middle ground of just looking bad.
>>2388795and there are no negative associations given from other cultures, im sure. but keep victim-blaming children, anyway. 🤨
>>2388798>>2388804weirdos.
>>2388841>I don’t have an opinion on other culturesreally? so you have dont have an opinion on american hegemony? hollwood, hip-hop, etc.
>>2388845so you arent claiming the opposite? therefore you agree with anon. there should be no issue then 🙃
>>2388872they're arguments about as substantial as what is deserved. i agree with the outcome of the schools decision even if i think their reasoning and retraction was flawed. i think the school officer's thinking was more "apolitical" - the clear intention of the event was
foreign culture day, and "britain" doesn't count as a foreign culture unless you're in Scotland, Wales, or half of NI. going as Britain looks like pissing about even if it's just stupidity. it frankly parallels the sort of inane stuff that used to happen all the time when I was in school: costume day, but you can't enter the costume contest if your costume seems a bit too much like you were just treating it as a non-uniform day. the arbitrary judgement of the pettiest of public officials, it's annoying but if it's a political issue it's one of school abolition, not of "you can't even say you're British these days"
but none of this matters because i do not give a fuck about Rugby, I do not give a fuck about Warwickshire, I don't even particularly care about the midlands. i would struggle to care if it was a local school and a topic i cared about - but this is just nonsense. until they interview me about my school not letting me away with a tommy vercetti costume, i don't care, in fact, based on our ancient british legal tradition of following precedent, i endorse the school's choice.
(forget the right wing, here. the BBC are broadcasting it. local rage-bait nonsense on our supposedly unbiased national broadcaster. fuck off. when's songs of praise on.)
>>2388890>i dont careyet you care that people care
always a curiosity 🤔
>>2388884Going down this path of conflating culture and economics is the strawman you chose matey, if you don’t like that “British Culture” has been tarnished by rightoids laying claim to be the ones defining what that is and thus making many British people uncomfortable with what is purported to be their own culture, then you can have a problem with that because you can contest that.
Trying at first to be a disingenuous wanker with
>and there are no negative associations given from other cultures, im sureThen being a clueless cunt with
>Whatabout American imperialism? So many McDonalds around the world!Suggests you’re not being honest with what your actual problem is, likely that quite a few British people disagree with the rightoid definition of “British Culture” and you’d like them to shut up because other cultures bad too and the world is full of McDonalds rather than Toby Carveries.
If people feel uncomfortable with flying the Union flag here, that’s your fault.
>>2388894i care that a national media ecosystem is turning a non-story into a national story, yes. i care that i live in a country with a feral press owned by tax-dodging foreigners and literal aristocrats, and an "impartial" national broadcaster that bows to government whims, defines "unbiased" as "the average of what the papers say", and which actively plans to modify its content to appeal to delusional right-wingers.
i even care, to a slight degree, that it's found its way here. someone here's watching GB News. not even reading it!
watching it! at least fox news is funny in an american way, at least Bill O'Reilly could present…
>>2388899>Going down this path of conflating culture and economics is the strawman you chose matey"strawman"? i believe you are misusing terms. but anyway, i would suggest you look at how much direct involvement the US government, and military, have in the US entertainment industry, which is streamlined across the globe. this is a direct conflation between political, economic and cultural power. but apparently some people on this board have "no opinion" on that.
>if you don’t like that “British Culture” has been tarnished by rightoids laying claim to be the ones defining what that isgive me a "left wing" explanation of british culture if you like.
>Trying at first to be a disingenuous wanker with "and there are no negative associations given from other cultures, im sure"you are misusing terms again. "disingenuous" means to be dishonest. what is dishonest in my presentation? the only dishonesty is the "wanker" claiming,
<I don’t have an opinion on other culturesi tested this with the example of the USA, and he has evidently crumbled under the weight of his lies.
>Suggests you’re not being honest with what your actual problem ishow? i am using the example of american culture as something to have an opinion of, to show how the anon was lying.
>British people disagree with the rightoid definition of “British Culture” and you’d like them to shut up because other cultures bad toonot at all. my issue is that the EXCEPTION taken to this young girl is particularist rather than universal (hypocritical). to me, fairness is defined by universality, which is typically a left-wing virtue. to bring exception then is to justify a culture's derision, but as i say, are not all cultures guilty? therefore, there is no justification, which is why all attempts turn into failures.
>>2388902where is the "delusion" of this news story? it happened, and you permitted it. the young girl is guilty in your eyes. she is branded by the sins of her fathers.
>>2388921Yeah I have no opinion on whether people like watching Friends or not, no one disputes that’s an artefact of American culture that one can choose to embrace or reject for any arbitrary reason, even in nations they imperialise.
I do have an opinion on what people present as being British culture and the fact that a lot of British people find how that is presented to be uncomfortable for them and people like yourself throwing a hissy fit about it and slyly trying to equate a girl getting sent home from school for wearing the Union flag on culture day to being the victim of violence by some other alien culture.
>>2388952>I do have an opinion on what people present as being British culture and WHAT was presented? a union jack dress and a speech promoting diversity, while mentioning fish and chips and cups of tea. what is the controversy?
>trying to equate a girl getting sent home from school for wearing the Union flag on culture day to being the victim of violence by some other alien culture.where do i imply any of this? you live in a fantasy
the issue is HYPOCRISY. thats it. when people complain about "two tier" this and that, what they are saying is, "dont be a hypocrite". you permit hypocrisy though, so have chosen an unequal side of power.
>>2388964>where do i imply any of this?With your bizarre attempt to strawman the discussion to one where I’m saying I don’t care about the US bombing nations to expand its markets, complete with an image of presumably US soldiers, because I do care that there’s a lot of contention over what exactly British Culture is but the one oft presented is the one defined unilaterally by rightoids.
>but tea, fish and chips mentionedYeah and it’s that kind of self-stereotyping that the right do use to “prove” they know what British culture is, it’s about fish and chips, drinking tea, warm beer and casual racism.
Granted, it’s unlikely the girl had such nefarious motivations, but she is a victim of rightoids trying to conflate right-wing politics with British culture, like you’re doing when you claim that American hegemony is just as much about arbitrary cultural dominance as it is about bombing people to steal their shit and force them to buy American products.
>>2388980>With your bizarre attempt to strawman the discussion to one where I’m saying I don’t care about the US bombing nations here are the exact words you wrote:
>>2388841<I don’t have an opinion on other cultureswhich is self-evidently incorrect
>she is a victim of rightoids trying to conflate right-wing politics with British culturelike what? she has been victimised by the school, no one else. this is your madness.
>>2388983>he says, using the english language >>2388890>you can't even say you're British these days"except this one case does kind of prove that correct. Stewart Lee BTFO
The point is you can make valid criticisms of British nationalism without acting like a twat and sending a girl home from school cause she dressed in a flag. I think only British liberals have this hang up and I want to know why.
>>2388983UK for all it's faults, has culture. It hasn't been fully americanized yet like Canada, Australia and tonnes of places are.
Also I will always stand by the fact that the UK is the greatest music producing nation on earth. Hasn't been a good 20 years on the music front, but 60s-90s was complete British musical dominance and that arguably is the greatest era of music of all time.
I mean, Dire Straits, Led Zepplin and Pink Floyd alone.
Also I will always hold that while Electronic music did not originate in the UK, it was the UK that actually took those isolated movements, and turned it into proper electronic music genres and cultures. Even Goa Trance, despite the "Goa" name, was largely developed out of Megatripolis in London.
>>2389104>I mean, Dire Straits, Led Zepplin and Pink Floyd alone.All fake American bands. That's cultural appropriation. Also Brit bands were artificially inflated in popularity by the bongoid media complex.
Fun fact, the band America called themselves that because they were airforce brats in London, and they had to call them to distinguish them from all the fake Americans.
>>2389642I swear we didn't used to be this bad at propaganda and consent manufacturing. Increasingly it feels like living in the lib stereotype of an authoritarian regime, where everything is a lie, everyone must know it is a lie, and yet nothing can even hint that it's a lie.
Except that concurrently they'll openly state that its all fake, they'll print the accounts on their corruption and rub them in your face, they won't even try to cover it up. It's not mentally healthy to live under a regime like this.
Maybe it's all a scheme to make me think: fuck, I wish you were just honest thieves, I wish you were just openly cruel, I don't care anymore.
>>2389666>I swear we didn't used to be this bad at propaganda and consent manufacturing.Anon we used to be top of the world at this shit. That's why the BBC as an international organisation exists, world service was hand in hand with MI6.
Broken country. it's only going to get worse anon.
>>23887111. There is no difference between Labour and Reform.
2. Even in the absence of vote splitting Labour would lose, unless you assume they're entitled to every non-Reform vote
3. It's the job of parties to win votes, not voters to show loyalty to parties that repeatedly brief how much they hate their voters
If Labour does not offer Labour policies, it cannot be surprised it does not win Labour voters.
>>2390761for the most part this is petty administrative detail and not very interesting. ireland is empirically a much more successful nation than scotland.
perhaps i can put it in terms you understand: imagine you hold every EU member state in high regard, but you loathe the union. you associate all that is mediocre and that is false with the union, but you have nothing against the place it originated. you may even recognize that England was not let down by the French, or by the Germans, who run the EU, but by English leaders who sold out England, who wish to become European because they are insecure about the fact of their Englishness and, indeed, regard a good chunk of their country as an embarrassment.
the metaphor doesn't quite work: you didn't grow up with EuBC1 and EuBC2 showing you stories from Brussels as though they were somehow more relevant to you than stories from Tokyo, because people from a completely different social class really want to regard themselves as European instead of English, with your ITV branch again mostly focused on European matters, but having just enough domestic content that you know Englishness can in fact be seen on television, and with Channel 4 mainly being interesting for its American programming, apparently culturally neutral compared to all this transparent European propaganda. your school didn't try to create European patriotism in you even as it was transparent that Europe was some gigantic falsehood, a Frankenstein's monster of the Franco-German-English ruling classes, all the while being treated as basically a joke and an afterthought by Europe. England has not all-but-completely exported its capitalist class to Brussels, leaving behind only a clique of public sector administrators and public-private parasites in England. Finally, France and Germany aren't merged into one monster country which at once loathes the idea of England leaving, yet regards itself and "Europe" as synonymous. still, I think you can see the outlines.
>>2390781>ireland is empirically a much more successful nation than scotland.isnt that because theyre a tax haven for corporations? the irish people dont seem too happy recently, living in such a paradise, however.
>still, I think you can see the outlines.not quite. can you put it in concrete terms?
>>2390779do countries in the EU have sovereign powers?
>>2390792>do countries in the EU have sovereign powers?When the UK wanted to leave the EU its domestic parliament held a referendum and then left
When Scotland wished to have a second referendum in 2020 or whatever, the UK courts vetoed it and argued (rather irrelevantly) that actually Scotland and England didn't sign a treaty to create a union as equals at all, legally speaking England just absorbed Scotland.
Power given to the EU is ultimately power retained by the national parliament. This is even the contrivance that was used to justify being in the EU while retaining parliamentary sovereignty: When parliament passed legislation outside EU rules, it was just assumed to be parliament's will that the law implementing the EU rule superseded the later law, barring any specific statements to the contrary in the legislation itself.
So in a word: Yes.
>>2390797can you provide comparisons?
>>2390798>When the UK wanted to leave the EU its domestic parliament held a referendum and then left. When Scotland wished to have a second referendum in 2020 or whatever, the UK courts vetoed it.the UK voted to leave, and the UK only officially left in 2020. dont you think the suggestion of an immediate reversal is unreasonable? it would be as if a PM was elected and an immediate declaration of a general election was anounced - we must abide by the terms set.
>Scotland and England didn't sign a treaty to create a union as equals at all, legally speaking England just absorbed Scotland.what would an equality of powers look like?
>Power given to the EU is ultimately power retained by the national parliament.so germany as a majority leader in the EU has no sway? you are contradicting matters. and you are further implying that the EU offers no enforceable regulation. why does the EU exist then, if it has no power, in your opinion?
>>2390804a simple comparison would be foreign diplomacy, members of the UK have no independent diplomacy, but members of the EU do, you don't need to 100% agree with the EU on everything, but the UK you have to agree on everything, there is no real autonomy even under devolution, every member of the UK chafes because england gets to enrich itself at the expense of scotland, wales, and northern ireland, i'd imagine the average northern irishman (at least if they're not a diehard unionist) would be living a far better life in the republic than in the united kingdom, because at least they are actually represented more equally under the republic or EU
>>2390806what riches do scotland and wales offer england which impoverish them from the result?
also, i agree that devolution should be reversed.
>>2390804>dont you think the suggestion of an immediate reversal is unreasonable? Reasonable doesn't enter into it. If voters elected the "we will call another election immediately" party, then yes, they should have another election immediately.
WHO sets the terms is the most fundamental question.
>what would an equality of powers look like?being able to leave whenever you want, for one thing.
>so germany as a majority leader in the EU has no sway? you are contradicting matters. and you are further implying that the EU offers no enforceable regulation. No, you're just thick. When you're in the EU, regulation is enforceable because you agree to enforce it upon yourself. If you don't want to follow the rules, good news, you're allowed to leave!
When you're in the UK, regulations are enforceable because UK courts enforce it upon you, and if you don't want to follow the rules - bad news, you don't get a choice, you're stuck here!
>>2390807There was a referendum on EEC membership in 1975. Why didn't Brexiteers respect the result?????
>>2390816>Reasonable doesn't enter into it. If voters elected the "we will call another election immediately" party, then yes, they should have another election immediately. there are government petitions signed by millions. do you think they should have legal precedence? according to the petition website, an issue with enough petitions becomes a topic of consideration and/or debate. should the voter have more power? an open question.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/722903>being able to leave whenever you want, for one thing.leaving to join up with a new master?
>If you don't want to follow the rules, good news, you're allowed to leave! what if you stay and still dont follow the rules?
>if you don't want to follow the rules - bad news, you don't get a choice, you're stuck here!right, so what happens when you keep breaking EU rules while in the EU?
>There was a referendum on EEC membership in 1975. Why didn't Brexiteers respect the result?????they at least waited a bit.
>>2390817cameron resigned after brexit because he wanted to stay in the EU.
>>2390818>>2390819do you not think there is a proportion to spending? london offers the most tax revenues therefore has priority, for example? you get what you give?
>>2390824if Scotland joins the EU, Scotland can leave the EU at will. Britain joined the EU at will, and then left it at will.
Scotland joined the UK (nominally) at will and is now told it cannot leave the UK at will. If you cannot see the difference here, any further discussion is just noise.
Spending is a red herring, it is a question of where power properly lies. The bulk of people in Scotland believe that decisions about Scotland should be taken in Scotland, not in London. The previous referendum was a Independence vs Status Quo because Devo Max would've won in a landslide even though - if you take unionist arguments at face value - it would only make Scotland poorer.
As it stands, when the Scottish government tries to legislate a bottle recycling scheme the UK government blocks it for laughs.
>>2390818here are some stats on proportionate revenues:
>Overall, Scotland raised £88.5 billion in 2023-24, or 8.1% of total UK revenuehttps://www.gov.scot/publications/government-expenditure-revenue-scotland-gers-2023-24/pages/4/>The report estimated that in 2018-19, Wales raised £29.5billion in taxes and had £43billion spent on it by the Welsh & UK governments, meaning £13.5billion more was spent on Wales than was raised by Welsh taxes (“the subsidy”).https://stateofwales.com/how-is-wales-funded/london itself contributes more tax revenue than all of scotland, wales and northern ireland combined
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/articles/countryandregionalpublicsectorfinances/financialyearending2023 >>2390838Scottish people voted for parties supporting another referendum in 2015, 2016, 2017, 2019 and 2021. Why should the courts have the right to deny them what they voted for?
Let's imagine for a moment that Scotland doesn't want to be independent. Perhaps they are just referendum fetishists. What possible democratic justification is there for overturning their expressed will just because some people in London feel otherwise?
>>2390836>run the country solely for the benefit of London and the South East while allowing other areas to collapse into the most impoverished places in Northern Europe>as a consequence London and the South East generate the most money>clearly, this proves the virtue of running the country solely for the benefit of London and the South East, not the grotesque inequalities that result from an over-centralized countryAre you braindead or just Southern?
>>2390838>implying the EU is in any way more controlling the existing "union" that just cucks scotland and wales despite the fact even scottish unionists want to basically be independentinteresting argument from a unionist
>>2390836you're telling me the areas with the most population, generate most of the GDP? gee man i didn't know that, but they are still not represented anywhere near the level they should be, the fact you're such a pompous little southerner that you think that the even minimal autonomy the other members of the union have is too much means that i wish the EU was more controlling
>>2390852>Why should the courts have the right to deny them what they voted for?well, here is the case briefing from 2021
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/supreme-court-judgment-on-scottish-independence-referendum/the rights reserved against scottish parliament are based in the UK parliament (which includes 57 scottish seats) having precedence in such matters. my suggestion would then be to persuade a labour prime minister of the concern. but as far as it regards scottish independence, the speculative results are still negative:
>49% yes<51% nohttps://www.statista.com/chart/amp/28807/scotland-independence-referendum-result-vs-latest-polling/>What possible democratic justification is there for overturning their expressed will just because some people in London feel otherwise?the will of the people is betrayed every day in the UK; scotland are not unique victims.
>Are you braindead or just Southern?so you think london is only big because it is rigged that way? again, have a bit of common sense. most tax revenues come from london - this means that this wealth pre-exists selection for public spending.
>>2390866>Because all the fucking megacorps are in London! Does that actually mean anything concrete to any normal people?yes, since its the wealth of the megacorps which are taxed for public services.
>>2390868>unionismwell, its either british unionism or european unionism isnt it?
>>2390865You have given me the law, you have not given me some kind of rational justification. If the Scots are referendum fetishists, why should that not be allowed? Do you not think it entails a bit of sophistry for the court to reject the argument that even if such a referendum cannot deliver independence, the Scottish government should be entitled to run a "glorified opinion poll"?
>the will of the people is betrayed every day in the UK; scotland are not unique victims.It is betrayed across Europe - why, if Europe is just another equally cruel master, should Europe not have pulled this excuse on the UK?
>so you think london is only big because it is rigged that way? Yes! About the only other country in the world more centralized around its capital city is fucking Singapore.
Tax revenues don't materialize out of the aether. Who decided to onshore north sea oil wealth, destroying manufacturing industries outside London? Oh look, it's London! Who decided to deregulate the financial sector and encourage the development of an international tax avoidance hub in London? Oh look, it's London! Until recently, where were all the railway franchise agreements handed out, whether they were for the North, the Midlands, or for intercity services? Oh look, it's London! Who decides where major infrastructure is built, and always seems to choose London? You'll never fucking guess!
What possible reason is there for London to decide the times and prices of commuter train operations in Yorkshire, other than to create jobs for Londoners (and nick them from yorkshiremen, by-the-by)?
>>2390869No, it isn't, but that's another story. The EU issue is a stupid kafka-game: in 2014 Scotland was to be kicked out of Europe if it left the UK, in 2025 Scotland will be forced to rejoin Europe if it leaves the UK.
>>2390874how is british unionism "slavery"? because scotland gives 8% of taxes, so get 8% of taxes back?
>>2390877>You have given me the law, you have not given me some kind of rational justificationbecause thats a separate matter. your question concerned the grounds for refusal, so i provided them.
>the Scottish government should be entitled to run a "glorified opinion poll"they do. you can read the results of annual polling here:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1170409/scottish-independence/not sure the sample size, but you get the idea.
here is a UK gov petition:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701455>why, if Europe is just another equally cruel master, should Europe not have pulled this excuse on the UK?what excuse?
>londonwhat do you think brings disincentives for people to invest in other areas?
>No, it isn't, but that's another storyeither youre part of the UK or EU, no?
>>2390887>im irishso that explains the bitterness.
any thoughts on the riots in your country?
>>2390897in gaza, the settlers are israeli.
in NI, the "settlers" are fellow irish; just loyalists.
and speaking of occupiers, the irish seem more concerned with other groups these days…
>>2390882Because Scotland cannot leave of its own volition, it requires permission to leave. Like a slave, it cannot quit - it can only be released.
>they do. They do not. They do not post a ballot paper to every house in Scotland to see what people do with it, which is the meaning of the term. (and is the legal argument that the SNP had prepared from 2007 onwards in case the UK said no to a "real" referendum. Holyrood cannot legally legislate for a referendum, but - before this frankly illegitimate judgement from a biased court - "asking the public about a reserved issue" was theoretically not a reserved issue.)
>what excuse?the will of the people is betrayed every day in the EU; The UK are not unique victims.
>what do you think brings disincentives for people to invest in other areas?complete and total neglect of basic infrastructure, poor incentives, lacking official interest, and general poor allocation of human, physical and financial capital inside the country.
I'll be sure to let Norway know they've got to stop pissing about and pick either the EU or the UK. I don't think anyone's told them.
>>2390893what riots? you mean the hooligans? and of course i hate london, you pillaged this nation and run a colony in the north
>>2390912said "irish settlers" do not even consider themselves to be irish, and most of them are from scotland regardless
>>2390927>what riots? you mean the hooligans?well, there are so many weekly protests im hearing about, its hard to differentiate between them. a y thoughts on them, regardless?
>most of them are from scotland regardlessaye! 'twas the dreaded scotsman all along!
>>2390926>Because Scotland cannot leave of its own volition, it requires permission to leave. Like a slave, it cannot quit - it can only be released.scottish people by their own majority dont want to leave.
>They do not post a ballot paper to every house in Scotland to see what people do with it, which is the meaning of the term. no election works directly like that, which is why you need to go to a council building to even vote in general elections
>the will of the people is betrayed every day in the EU; The UK are not unique victims.i agree. in fact, as i have stated, things are worse after brexit, because we must realise that we are held back by enemies within, not without.
>complete and total neglect of basic infrastructure, poor incentives, lacking official interest, and general poor allocation of human, physical and financial capital inside the country.what would improve these factors?
>norwaysi you dont want to be a servant of brussells after all?
>>2390933>any thoughts on them, regardless?pretty unpopular here, and the issue is mostly that the irish government is not building enough houses and is forced to take in more immigrants, whereas countries with abundances of houses (like in eastern europe) refuse to take them, pushing the burden onto nations like ireland and spain
>>most of them are from scotland regardless>aye! 'twas the dreaded scotsman all along!well if they want to be british so bad, i think you english should receive every one, i think that's a fair deal right?
>>2390939>the issue is mostly that the irish government is not building enough houses and is forced to take in more immigrants"forced"?? by whom?
>countries with abundances of houses (like in eastern europe) refuse to take them, pushing the burden onto nations like ireland and spainim sure those eastern european countries will be swiftly punished and all the excess immigrants will be moved there soon, right?
>>2390942the reason why the "solution" to the troubles holds is in part because there is an independent irish state, and a large irish diaspora to hold it in place, there is no such thing for the palestinians, that's why any comparison to ireland and palestine are inaccurate
>>2390944also this, in northern ireland there are three people, people who support a united ireland, people who support unionism and people who really love unionism
>>2390945>"forced"?? by whom?by these states within europe? like poland, romania, bulgaria?
>im sure those eastern european countries will be swiftly punished and all the excess immigrants will be moved there soon, right?if their governments accepted them, yeah, but ireland has to bear the load
>>2390952>by these states within europe? like poland, romania, bulgaria?so eastern europe controls ireland?
>if their governments accepted them, yeahand what if they dont?
>>2390955>so eastern europe controls ireland?big inference there, it's rather that the decisions of european states affect others, i'd infinitely prefer it over living with you miserable cunts
>if their governments accepted them, yeah>and what if they dont?then they have to go somewhere that will
>>2390954they still do, just not as much as before
>>2390962>it's rather that the decisions of european states affect othersounds like that system's become an issue.
>then they have to go somewhere that willso if you break the rules there are no consequences and everyone else has to suffer? but its interesting anyway - why dont these countries want to house immigrants in the first place? why is france allowing thousands of migrants out of their country, thereby denying their responsibility to house migrants?
>>2391025ireland seems more occupied with other issues these days rather than britain.
>>2391022they can stay here, the concession they'll have to make is to give up their unionism dogma
>>2391029at the very least we haven't been deemed blood-enemies of england and thus deserve to be exterminated, nor have we been starved, nor have we been occupied by a foreign military, i much prefer this over britain, even if f we do have to take in immigrants because no one else will, but that can be solved by getting the irish government to simply build more houses
>>2391042>they are not mutually exclusivewell, at a certain rate, there comes a contradiction, and so an order of priority. if housing stabilises at the rate of births, and then suddenly a large influx of people in the population occurs, then there is competition for existing resources. another issue is logistical. where exactly should houses be built? in my own town, they are replacing previous green spaces for new homes, despite protests from locals. if this trend increases ad infinitum, then there can be no environment which exists apart from the supply of housing. council flats and housing estates have existed in the past to concentrate populations, yet this seems to always fall into crime and decay. many factors contribute of course, but besides this, we see an equalisation, stagnation and decline in birth rates from citizens, which should shrink the economy. many politicians cite "growth" as the cause for importing immigrants, artificialising rates of demand - is immigration then not a way to boost economic activity in a time of stabilisation? is it not preferable to have sustainable populations rather than exponential populations?
>>2391139genuine master baiter here making another false equivalence
>>2391129false dilemma and a strawman argument
>>2391174>because unlike the palestinians they are the products of a centuries long invasion of the regionThat’s the story of basically everywhere, it’s always for arbitrary reasons that one group that exists on some land for hundreds of years are justified to call it their homes and another group on another bit of land isn’t justified and are just invaders regardless of how many centuries they’ve lived there.
The arbitrary reason here is that you want Northern Ireland, you don’t want Palestine.
>>2391283>Nationalism is weird in general, imagine getting that fucking worked up over lines drawn by whoeverthefuck
<Most were graduates of the 1968 university upheavals in the West. We found it very amusing that they honestly believed they were making a 'revolution' if they undressed in public, seized a university building, or shouted an obscenity at bureaucrats. I was initially opposed and refused to talk to them, even though some believed in violent revolution, because I didn't want to be another experimental 'guinea-pig' to Westerners.
<I finally relented and I am glad I did. I hadn't met Western 'revolutionaries' before. It turned out they represented an unfamiliar cultural rather than a political phenomenon.
<Some seemed to have read the history political literature of the left, but most regarded the Marxist-Leninist leaders disdainfully, with the exception of the 'Young Marx, who held some sort of fascination for revolution.
<Some Americans were quite serious and believed in the historic mission of the working class and were making plants to integrate themselves with the masses.
<What astonished us most about this group was that they were opposed to nationalism, a doctrine we hold dearly as a colonized and dissipated people. Some believed in violence for the hell of it and in students as revolutionary agents of history. But the majority were inclined towards guerrilla theatre as a means of 'making revolution. They performed a little for us.
<As they were departing I was rather struck by a French anarchist student who proclaimed 'Let chaos reign' and by a German who echoed the same sentiment.
<I exclaimed that the Palestinian people were an example of a society in chaos without authority and leadership, which as a result, was left at the mercy of the Zionist oppressor.
<I asked them what could they prescribe for us in order to overcome our kind of alienation'-beards, long hair, and toy guns?
<They merely paused, they smiled, they reflected, they inhaled and passed their joints on in universal wonder. >>2391323On the other hand their plight is caused by Zionists and their desire to arbitrarily draw lines on the map to create a nation to be nationalistic about. Opposing that is obviously correct but I don’t see how
>Drawing lines is good when I do itis somehow a radical freedom fighting concept that those western lefties have pretentiously not seen
>>2391332I was subtley calling you a long haired faggot
Maybe read some Marxism to understand the historic role of nations, their development and ultimate dissipation once they've developed to their fullest extent instead of shilling for a world of rootless victims of capital drifting from one economic zone to the next with no social bonds for the exigencies of capital like the Ten Kingdoms the Club Of Rome wants
<An international movement of the proletariat is possible only among independent nations. Engels - Nationalism, Internationalism and the Polish Question
Stalin - Marxism and the National and Colonial Question
Stalin - Marxism And The National Question
Stalin - REPORT ON THE NATIONAL QUESTION
Stalin - THE OCTOBER REVOLUTION AND THE NATIONAL QUESTION
Stalin - Leninism and the National Question
Stalin - The National Question Once Again
Alliance-ML The Theory of a 'Black Nation'
Communist Party of Britain - Marxist-Leninist - Britain: One Nation, One Culture
>>2391335Keyword: Historic
Like I said, opposing people trying to redraw borders is based, what isn’t based is being like
>its ackshually the lines that matter most in this struggle you fucken western wimpsThat’s actually rather cringe because once you’ve successfully opposed the redrawing of borders you’ve also provided the impetus for bourgeois nationalism which involves the kind of
>now *I* want to redraw the bordersAttitude that Irish anon demonstrates for us so kindly and demonstrated historically by all kinds of border conflicts and nationalist fractures that erupted in the aftermath of collapsing European empires.
>>2391350>i want ireland to be unifiedAnd that is against the will of the people who live in Northern Ireland, what is impossible for you to comprehend is that historic wrongs don’t give you carte blanche to say “I’m not really redrawing the borders for nationalism sake, I’m just righting a historic wrong” which is the excuse for redrawing borders like 80% of the time you fucken jizz jacuzzi
I know you don’t *think* you want forced expulsion of people as part of that, but you’ve already reasoned to yourself that it wouldn’t be unjustified if they’re actually British and they’d probably be happier off in the British part of Britain as a part of refusing to accept that throughout violence and democracy alike, those people don’t want to leave any more than the Palestinians do and nothing you can think of will change the reality that you want forced redrawing of borders and you don’t necessarily think you need the permission of people you’d be redrawing the lines around.
>>2391365>And that is against the will of the people who live in Northern Irelandno it isn't, the populace in northern ireland are generally apathetic but most don't reject unity with the republic
>what is impossible for you to comprehend is that historic wrongs don’t give you carte blanche to say “I’m not really redrawing the borders for nationalism sake, I’m just righting a historic wrong” which is the excuse for redrawing borders like 80% of the time you fucken jizz jacuzziwhen an artificial division is imposed because a bunch of LARPing foreigners decided they're the trve brits and proceeded to make this everyone else's problem, that's why they need to accept that they are irish, not british, but irish
>I know you don’t *think* you want forced expulsion of people as part of that, but you’ve already reasoned to yourself that it wouldn’t be unjustified if they’re actually British and they’d probably be happier off in the British part of Britain as a part of refusing to accept that throughout violence and democracy alike, those people don’t want to leave any more than the Palestinians do and nothing you can think of will change the reality that you want forced redrawing of borders and you don’t necessarily think you need the permission of people you’d be redrawing the lines around.they didn't ask for permission before they invaded our country, to make your comparisons to the palestinians is supposed to make me care for the unionists who bombed funerals, the unionists who killed more civilians than any other side in the troubles, the reality is that when you proceed to commit the vast majority of violence during a period, have no remorse for it whatsoever, and expect us to accept the occupation they support, then fuck off if you want to, if they consider themselves to be trve brits, then why do they have to live in another country they took without attempting to share it with us? if they could they would turn the rest of ireland into what they've made of northern ireland
>>2391385Well thanks for outing yourself with your contempt for the people, perhaps you’re correct that London doesn’t care about Northern Ireland but there is absolutely no guarantee that Dublin will either in a unified Ireland, with people like you wanting to re-litigate the potato famine and the troubles with them, while currently Belfast has some form of self governance that you’re conveniently ignoring will have to be given up if they were to just “accept being Irish” and being reduced to a few seats in Irish parliament.
I mean isn’t that really the sum total of this seething, that some people have enough self-governance to disagree with you on “your” island.
>>2391413>Well thanks for outing yourself with your contempt for the peopleyou have infinitely more contempt for us, the population of ireland did not consent to their island being partitioned in 1922, yet it happened anyway, and yes they need to accept being irish, that is the actual solution to this, because they either accept that they're irish or we pay them to leave for britain, and we are not "relitigating the potato famine and troubles" what we are doing is simple, recognizing that they invaded this country, and that they either need to accept this fact and live alongside us, rather than being segregated and against us, with your immaculate logic, we should support any form of segregation, since it is occasionally popular and to suggest anything would be to cleanse a region of that population, do you not see how you are either stupid, or disingenious with claiming this sort of nonsense?
>>2391454the thing is that i agree, the problem is that they do not, i have to keep emphasizing that the unionists do not just want ireland separated, if they became something like canada and retained their status as under britain but autonomous, i would be fine with that, the problem starts when they also want to effectively segregate northern ireland and implement what once amounted to apartheid, the unionists do not deserve special treatment just because they did not commit genocide themselves, the question is actually quite simple, and it's one you keep ignoring, do you want a segregated ireland divided artificially, or do you want a united ireland that cares little for these disputes and actually tries to keep this in order? because that's the actual choice, and anyone who tells you otherwise is a liar
>>2391442They don't even
really need to accept being Irish. Plenty of British people live in Ireland and remain British, plenty of Europeans live in Britain and consider themselves whatever country they've come from. The country you live in not matching up with your ethnic/cultural identity is fairly common.
>>2391454I think that's because discussions tend to want to drift back to a high brow historical root cause because it's less likely to devolve into name calling than confronting the fact that some of the people involved are just stupid wankers, people you'd instinctively side against even if they were in the right on the history. That they aren't is a pleasant coincidence.
I mean really, really glibly: all the major nationalist parties have better fiscal policy and better views on social issues than all the major unionist parties. If you split the difference on all the history, there's still clearly a better side, and it's unfortunate that the better side is unable to do anything on bread-and-butter policy because there's a wanker veto.
I mean, it's better than the 1920-60s when the wankers had their own gerrymandered apartheid parliament and Britain took a hands-off not-my-problem approach, but it's still not ideal.
>>2391472In fairness, they're about evenly matched with the difference going to the Alliance. The optimum outcome would be some kind of nationalist-alliance coalition, which would probably be fine because the Alliance would have the votes to stop them declaring the pope king or whatever.
>>2391645Again, it’s really unlikely that a single Palestinian state that integrates Israelis is going to be happy ever after because the now former Israelis will still have their greater wealth, greater living standards, greater connections to the outside world and they’d still end up as the elite within Palestinian society.
Sooner or later you’re going to realise that no one actually means it when they’re offering the other side to back down and be shown mercy and their refusal means they’re unreasonable and deserving of violence
>>2391350>i want ireland to be unifiedWhat's your plan for how to do this?
Because despite all the huffing and puffing for decades, no one has suggested a practical plan for how unification will work. What will happen with pensions? Will people in the north want to lose the NHS?
>>2388729>It needs really to be more like the Dems tbh. A coalition of other left wing parties and groups that all agree on a largely material bread and butter issues (economy/immigration), then allow free voting on whatever social issues or whatever, leadership of the party should basically never comment on social issues as well, take the Anthony Albanese route. Are you referring to wanting to be more like American Democrats?
If so, just remember that they're mainly liberal left.
They're not true left at all.
Also:
>The overwhelming majority of British people are homeowners. Not among us young people yes, but most of the country aren't youth and youth voters are notoriously unreliable support base because most will grow into Libdem/Centrist types as they move into their 40s.That's like saying older people are unreliable voters for right wing parties because they were liberal before age forty.
Also, consider that leftism is generally unpopular to begin with. Young people are your only demographic.
>>2388719The left doesn't even talk to University educated people on average.
Most college/University educated people aren't ivory tower idealists.
>Still don't particularly like dealing with this Demographic through as a base. I will always from my experience, view them as unreliable. Another is they are centralized too much into little pockets, and Uni itself is it's own form of brainwashing. If you are able to get regular normies on board, then Uni students will follow."Normies" have their own brainwashing as well.
A lot of conspiracy theories going around.
>I generally agree, but if material circumstances stablize, then the left is absolutely fucked and will lose their base. Like it or not, the average University educated person comes out on average a million pounds better off than the non-Uni educated. I've watched friend after friend after friend over the years, lose all their Socialist/left wing values and move on to become a centrist, if not a Wet tory, as they moved into better paying jobs and home ownership. Even watched friends who were Hardcore Environmentalists, become "Actually fracking is great and environmentally safe and clean coal is the future" when they got jobs basically greenwashing mining and such operations.So you care more about your precious anti-idpol leftist party getting permanent members than making material conditions better for everyone.
Why am I not surprised?
>then the entire left pivoted from a winning narrative into "um, kids actually have fully formed self identity and we should medicalize that and saying otherwise is fascism despite in all other psychology we don't even identify such disorders until early adulthood for obvious fucking reasonsChildren do have fully formed self identity, it's just that they're not allowed any autonomy.
Also, psychology is still a relatively new phenomenon.
There are any psychological disorders that one gets in youth and outgrow, others that come in with age.
>Not the 1970s anymore. People like that are stealing from a struggling, overleveraged fund that is designed for severely disabled people, not LARPing spoonies who seemingly make up a huge portion of Zoomers, landlords and fucking boomers. Why do you have such a hate boner for boomers and zoomers? Are you millennial or something?
>>2391657This was true of White South Africans as well, and despite all the /pol/ bleating they've not had it so bad on the whole. You might point out that they all left, but they weren't expelled.
Or perhaps Bantustans were the way to go after all. Mandela was insincere and actually, it's white genocide for the rich to realize they'd rather emigrate than pay tax in a multinational state.
>>2391749grotesque equivocation.
Unique IPs: 200