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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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Not reporting is bourgeois


 

Who even came up with the 'left wing' vs. 'right wing' communist thing? I've read LWC by Lenin, but it sounds like that's not exactly where it originated but at some point prior which precipitated his writing of that book. I ask because it seems odd to me that the distinction is framed this way; it sounds like something a leftcom would come up with to make their opposition seem like assholes. Thank you for your attention to this matter.

french revolution

actually it comes from the social democratic movement pre-revolution

>>2384622
i know about that, im talking about intra-communist left/right distinctions

>>2384623
well social democratic just meant communist back then. i figured it comes from pre-rev i want to know a bit more in detail tho

Check out Hetrodox Marxism on Youtube. He is one of three channels that have actually bothered to read theory/history on the entire website

He has a video on this exact topic

>>2384638
that guy is a big pseud that tried to 'debunk' finbol and failed miserably. generally he's not just a leftcom he's a fucking ultra and his 'sources' on topics are usually one (or at best two) book(s) that he summarizes.

>>2384638
>>2384663 (me)
and he's a memepage admin on instagram, nuff said
come the fuck on not a flood

>>2384663
I watched finbol's response it was nothing but deflections and didn't debooooonk a single thing said by Hetrodox

>>2384668
watch it again then? hetmar offers nothing but shallow readings of history and completely eclectic interpretations of theory, and I've been following him for a good while before i realized he's all bark and no bite

>>2384620
Next time use this >>2381106 thread for dumb questions like this.

>>2384670
Nah pretty sure finlib got owned

>>2384620
It came about due to the seating arrangement of the conservatives vs the radicals during the French Revolution. It is a historical reference that stuck.

i have also wondered this many times


>>2384620
i believe it came from the Second International, when the rise of reformism and revisionism becomes the “right wing” of socialism. The whole thing was divided between the Lefts, center and Rightists. Ie. Bernstein vs Kautsky

File: 1752337840009.png (9.34 MB, 2560x1609, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2384701
Burger here, I distinctly remember this in our HS textbooks. I mean public school in California. Most of you had such a shoddy education. You really need to go back and do that overview of history you were supposed to get as a child.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left%E2%80%93right_political_spectrum#Origins_in_the_French_Revolution

>The terms "left" and "right" first appeared during the French Revolution of 1789 when members of the National Assembly divided into supporters of the Ancien Régime to the president's right and supporters of the revolution to his left.[6][7][8] One deputy, the Baron de Gauville, explained: "We began to recognize each other: those who were loyal to religion and the king took up positions to the right of the chair so as to avoid the shouts, oaths, and indecencies that enjoyed free rein in the opposing camp".[9][10]

>>2384624
>i know about that, im talking about intra-communist left/right distinctions
Does anyone really call themselves a rightwing communist? It seems like it is just trying to make pejoratives by implications. I am a "Left Communist" meaning I am to the left of other communists. It's just like calling yourself ultra in a supposedly positive connotation.

File: 1752338363860.png (963.75 KB, 754x476, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2384620
>Who even came up with the 'left wing' vs. 'right wing' communist thing?
The french bourgeoisie, for the both of them.

>>2384663
>le armchair didn't deboonk le finnish groomer breadtoober
Nobody needs to bother with such gravediggers, they bury themselves.

>>2384795
interesting any source on this

>>2384803
>>2384813
HISSSSSS READ THE THREAD

Pretty sure it was Haz that came up with the idea of a right-wing communist, thus redefining all actual communists as left-wing.

>>2384670
no way fingroomer still got stans

The left and right are dependent on the base. They are necessarily different when the base is capitalism and then when the base is socialism. Roughly speaking, the right wing of socialism would be the center-left under capitalism.

>>2384828
The Second International 1889-1914, James Joll
The Internationale, R. Palme Dutt
History of the Three Internationals, William Z. Foster

>>2384620
the OG leftcoms that made lenin so pissed that he wrote lwcaid were the KAPD communist worker party of germanay

>>2384894
>>2384814
finbol actually makes good, well researched videos. one of the rare people that is consistent on that front for almost a decade. i think i'll trust him more than some headless poster here

>>2384917
True. Cockshott and Finbol are basically the only two leftist youtubers I watch

>>2384917
Idk, even his videos on modes of production is sheer dogshit that simply parrots a Soviet textbook verbatim, dude’s a retard and teleologist, lib to the core

>>2384942
>simply parrots a Soviet textbook verbatim
why improve the wheel?
>dude’s a retard and teleologist, lib to the core
all edge and no point

>>2384945
You should abandon a wheel with a worthless shape, like a triangle or square, less a full thirty years after you withered away into a normal bourgeois regime some alienated LARPing teenagers treat your utter failure to accomplish anything greater than accelerated bourgeois development be treated as the height of victory to be “striven” (MLs won’t do shit in the West if they couldn’t when the USSR still existed) toward.

>>2384945
That being said, his shallow attempts at education fall apart when you immediately recognize he didn’t invest the time to actually research any serious marxist works analyzing prior modes of production nor a single anthropological or paleontological text regarding human evolution and prehistoric societies. But I do guess channels like his accomplish the needs of the main viewers of his commodity, westerners that want to feel they are engaging in revolutionary struggle of some sort by consuming content.

>>2384948
>>2384949
seething leftcom lmao

>>2384956
>Like don’t read books, don’t think, just feel
Stalinoids truly are the fascists of wannabe communists

>>2384638
What are the other two channels?

>>2385687
fascism is more revolutionary than leftcommunism as bordiga said or ᴉuᴉlossnW applied to reality.

>>2385692
S4A and Dessalines have a lot of free audiobooks so I guess them?

>>2384807
The right opposition eventually referred to themselves as such didn't they?

>>2385712
A right wing leftist?

>>2384956
no there's absolutely a point in 'the USSR failed, clearly their formula has some issues'

>>2385989
yeah the issue is revisionism we know

>>2385994
just follow the party line and it will all be fine (tm)

>>2385994
Seriously though, do you really not think given the criticisms of genuine people *within* the movement had of the USSR (including during Lenin's time) such as Luxemburg are good material for updating our approach?

There's no shame in accepting that the USSR was a 'pilot' and can be iterated upon and improved.

>>2386021
no, I'm not a retard who thinks Lenin or Stalin were great men who made no mistakes, or that criticism of existing socialism is obsolete, but I have an issue with ultras, leftcoms and other communists to the left of Lenin arguing in bad faith, reducing the first attempt at socialism "social-democracy", "state capitalism", screaming about commodities and wage labor, ignoring imperialist and colonialist contradictions of world capitalism, reducing complex social issues to slogans ripped out of time and place. i also don't think Luxemburg is a good Marxist in many of her takes and that she was one of the many anti leninists at that time that opportunistically changed sides a bit too late and ended up in the canal because of it

>>2386025
i dont see why youre saying something culty like 'why improve the wheel' then?

>>2386025
also re: criticism of luxemburg I find the first half of your statement and second half kind of weird bc it seems like your criticism of the left-left is about not discussing imperialism even though Luxemburg wrote about the subject before Lenin and it seems like your criticism of her in the second half has nothing to do with her political writings or theory but that you don't like that she 'switched sides' which is something that never happened – she was supportive of Lenin mostly but simply had some warnings about the approach not being perfect which, you should admit, came to fruition.

>>2386025
> leftcoms and other communists to the left of Lenin arguing in bad faith, reducing the first attempt at socialism "social-democracy", "state capitalism", screaming about commodities and wage labor,
Can you say what’s actually bad faith about those statements? I read your comment further already and they seem to be statements you take moral offense to and respond to with apologetics, not theoretical critique.
It’s noteworthy that you treat leftcoms’ mention of every single factor of capitalism maintained in ML “socialism” as “screaming” rather than a coherent critique even whilst you do maintain that they are correct to note the continuation of generalized commodity production, the pricing system, and class rule itself. At which point the position of defensiveness, and it is defensiveness, represents a sentimental one, not a theoretical one. Your entire framing of your own critics is an inherently bad faith and intellectually dishonest one. Which does make sense for ardent “communist” supporters of a man whose main way of deal with communist critics was simply to silence and murder them. Convenient, eh?
> ignoring imperialist and colonialist contradictions of world capitalism, reducing complex social issues to slogans ripped out of time and place
In reality, this is projection. Ignoring the real world contradictions of imperialism and world capitalism a system the USSR was always integrated into upon the defeat of the revolutionary wave, is exactly what Stalinists do. Because of their sentimental attachment to the Soviet Union and “AES” generally, they ignore the various theoretical arguments as to why the USSR failed to achieve what any socialist prior to the 1920s would have called “socialism” to instead point to the professed ideology of the CCCP (idealism), the imagined outlooks of its leaders (idealism as Great Man Theory no less), the assumed desire to “achieve” socialism taken as socialism itself (substitutionism tilted toward voluntarism)

MLs quickly resort to moralism when faced with Leftcom critics because the only even coherent sounding response they could possibly make outside of direct capitulation is to restate all the reasons Leftcoms already believe they could not achieve socialism, such as historical underdevelopment, imperialist encirclement, and the need to prepare for competition with all the nations of the world rather than a simple existence as a node in a world international, as somehow the “proof” of its socialism. The catch is that MLs, having secretly resorted to idealism as a liberal would, mean “socialism” as an ideal, the leftcoms mean socialism/communism as an actual social order, mode of production and distribution, epoch, and movement of abolition. Leftcoms mean socialism as Marx himself referred to it, MLs mean socialism as liberals standing in opposition would refer to it.

>>2385692
>>2385707
ckkphilosophy and rosemedia

>>2386026
it's a textbook on political economy. a textbook. it's meant to be a first exposure to the topic. i don't think expecting every popular book about political economy to be another capital or the position of England's working class is something reasonable. i don't think that people who are already overworked and burnout are ready to sit down and sift through current anthropological research to get the right opinions on history, and i think a popular textbook is good enough.

>>2386029
>she was supportive of Lenin mostly but simply had some warnings about the approach not being perfect which, you should admit, came to fruition.
list her warnings, and list those which came to fruition then.

>>2386048
>Can you say what’s actually bad faith about those statements?
yes i can. the first is that state capitalism (as Bukharin used it) is not applicable to the Soviet union (which you would know had you read his economics of the transitional period). "social democracy" is an umbrella term used equal out regimes from the soviet to fucking hitler. it's a meaningless term without precise connotations, consistently used to degrade the Soviet experiment because it didn't abolish the old world quickly enough.
>continuation of generalized commodity production, the pricing system, and class rule itself
generalized refers to labor power being a commodity you nonce. how is labor power a commodity if there is no market for labor power, if the economy is planned i.e. unemployment is a statistical error, no leftcom can explain. there was commodity production, not generalized comprod.

what do prices signal in a planned economy? certainly not the random fluctuations on the market as in a capitalist economy. they neither inform production plans. that's another thing, thinking that because things seem the same, they are the same. explain to me how did these prices inform gosplans?
<class rule
were there workers who made production plans? yes. did this make them a new class? no. neither did the party members form a distinct class. do you even know what class means?? none of these people extracted any kind of meaningful surplus from their relation to the means of production.

>you're morallizing

bla bla bla this is the new catchphrase when people get sick of listening to childish 'critiques' of the ussr, and then you even lapse into classical anticommunist slander (muh silencing of the opposition muh mass killings). you spent more time fighting against the ghost of moralism in your post than explaining the meaning behind you substanceless slogans.

>>2386083
>list her warnings, and list those which came to fruition then.

- bureaucratic overload of the vanguard party and extinction of the revolutionary wave of mass movements in favour of 'stability'
- petty nationalism in poland taking priority over the class struggle
- lack of mass democracy in the party hindering the political maturation of the proletariat

You mention that the working class are not ready to sit down and learn bc they're overworked but I'm not attacking the limits of the working class' ability to comprehend here, I'm questioning your personal positions on how the system should be run.

I think MLs should be able to acknowledge these points without simply dismissing them out of hand. But aside from that, do you recognise that what you were saying earlier about 'not improving on the wheel' comes across as cultish and distasteful to even people who would agree with you on 90% of things?

>>2386083
> it's a textbook on political economy. a textbook.
That’s exactly the problem
Instead of going directly to the source of communist theory, Marx, Engels, Lenin, even latter writers such as Perry Anderson who did an in-depth analysis of the slave and feudal modes of production, he went directly to the simplest, shallowest, economically determinist explanations of human historical development, in a text crafted, primarily, to train Soviet citizens into a peculiar form of Marxism that is not at all a ruthless criticism of all that exists and instead the ideological maintenance of the present state of things (in the USSR)
> yes i can. the first is that state capitalism (as Bukharin used it) is not applicable to the Soviet union (which you would know had you read his economics of the transitional period).
Leftcoms are not referring to state capitalism as Bukharin mentioned it, and you have still not said what is “bad faith” about such a criticism, only reiterated that you disagree. We know you disagree. That does not make our criticism bad faith. Left-communism isn’t an attempt to make Stalinists feel bad.
> social democracy" is an umbrella term used equal out regimes from the soviet to fucking hitler.
Not at all, the USSR is often written off as a social democracy by Leftcoms because the vast majority of the rhetoric MLs draft in its defense amount to defending its welfare system and state monopoly and calling both these things socialist, yet they were not conflated with “socialism” at all until MLs needed to defend themselves against socialist critics, or perhaps more accurately they were recognized as not socialist in nature once social democratic reforms were achieved in the imperial core and threatened capital in no way, shape, or form.

The folly lies upon MLs themselves, whose defense of socialism pushes them to uphold the gains brought forth by capital’s historical advance (industrialization, “modernization”, “national sovereignty”, modern science, mass state funded welfare) with socialism, whose only actual nature (socialism’s) is the abolition of capital’s mediations on the basis and utilization of its historical progress. The problem is that MLs perfectly mirror liberal critics when they argue that capitalism is socialism but in a positive, affirmative sense. MLs cannot respond to these criticism, truly, beyond openly flouting Marx, and revising his actual insights about the capitalist mode of production into a barely concealed defense of the capitalist mode of production.
> generalized refers to labor power being a commodity you nonce. how is labor power a commodity if there is no market for labor power, if the economy is planned i.e. unemployment is a statistical error, no leftcom can explain. there was commodity production, not generalized comprod.
Labor power is sold as a commodity so long as its renumeration is in the form of the money wage, which obviously existed in the Soviet Union, for the only purpose of money is to conceal economic exploitation/the appropiation of surplus value. It does not matter if a private firm appropriates said value, or if a clique of shareholders do it, or if the state does it. By this same logic, a soldier is not selling their labor power in return for a wage, except, they are. By this same logic, capitalism ceases to exist within a monopoly. By this same logic, capitalism has not actually existed since the late 19th Century, when monopolies secured control over the advanced economies across the world. Socialism is not a synonym for state monopoly. If you have a proletarian class, you do not have a socialist society at all, what you do have, is a highly monopolized economy, which is itself still befuddled since pretty much all ML governments did have stipulations allowing for small producers (petit bourgeois) to persist in various fashion anyway.
Capitalism is not synonymous with some of its worst social symptoms, such as chronic unemployment nor homelessness. This is where MLs reveal themselves to functionally be radical social democrats, rather than actual Marxists, defending a society they feel sentimental attachment to, rather than ones that can be called socialist from a materialist standpoint.
> what do prices signal in a planned economy? certainly not the random fluctuations on the market as in a capitalist economy. they neither inform production plans. that's another thing, thinking that because things seem the same, they are the same. explain to me how did these prices inform gosplans?
Prices do not determine production in capitalism in general
> were there workers who made production plans? yes. did this make them a new class? no. neither did the party members form a distinct class. do you even know what class means?? none of these people extracted any kind of meaningful surplus from their relation to the means of production.
I didn’t state that the bureaucracy were a new class in itself, I stated that class rule was maintained. The secret of Capital, that Marx himself uncovered, is that the capitalist, the personification of Capital, is a relatively irrelevant figure, his most noteworthy act was the bourgeois revolutions by his ideological ancestors. This is a place where MLs seem to actively pretend to be more ignorant than they realistically should be, since even Lenin noted the rise of shareholders and the decreasing importance of the capitalist-industrialist-individual owner has long been a subject of both Marxist and even bourgeois analysis. Capital’s rule does not require an individual who is privately accumulating the surpluses to exist, it requires only personages who can maintain that surplus accumulation whether or not it falls into their own hands. Capital, as a social productive system and historical epoch, is not a conspiracy of the bourgeoisie.
> bla bla bla this is the new catchphrase when people get sick of listening to childish 'critiques' of the ussr, and then you even lapse into classical anticommunist slander (muh silencing of the opposition muh mass killings). you spent more time fighting against the ghost of moralism in your post than explaining the meaning behind you substanceless slogans.
Your stance is moralist because nothing you have argued is built out of Marx’s actual theories, they center on how you feel. Your feelings are irrelevant. Yet you keep referencing them. And your personal offense. That would imply you cannot defend your own beliefs from a materialist standpoint. Your feelings do not matter, at all, they have no bearing on what is factual or correct.

>>2386138
>Instead of going directly to the source of communist theory, Marx, Engels, Lenin
but he has done that many times over, and if he says he'll be reading a soviet political ecnomy textbook, you can't be surprised when he reads a soviet political economy textbook.
let's not discuss finbol further because it really is not the topic that we have reached

>>2386138
>Leftcoms are not referring to state capitalism as Bukharin mentioned
then they are not referring to anything. there is one meaning to this word, and it's very clear what it is - the trustification of state power, subordinated to the interest of the bourgeoisie. did this happen in the ussr? no.

>welfare system and state monopoly = social democracy

>not socialist in nature once social democratic reforms were achieved in the imperial core
>Labor power is sold as a commodity so long as its renumeration is in the form of the money wage, which obviously existed in the Soviet Union
the most basic distinguishing feature of different modes of social organisation is the manner in which they ensure the ‘extraction of a surplus product’ from the direct producers. surplus product, on the other hand, is that portion of social output used to maintain the non-producing members of society. soviet socialism, particularly following the introduction of the first five-year plan under Stalin in the late 1920s, introduced a new and non-capitalist mode of extraction of a surplus. even though money and wages remained the social content of these ‘monetary forms’ changed drastically. this switch to a planned system, where the the division of necessary and surplus product is the result of deliberate social decision, is entirely in line with what Marx had hoped for (but maybe not as participatory as he had hoped)

ignoring the ML strawman you've made, let us continue…

>Capitalism is not synonymous with some of its worst social symptoms, such as chronic unemployment

there was no unemployment in the ussr. thus there was no labor market. thus there was no competition between workers to sell labor power for a lower price. as a consequence, neither did the reserve army of labor exist. you continuously argue that this 'abstract capitalism' continued to exist, and your argument of existence is that there existed economic categories that look like capitalistic economic categories, but you ignore their social content.
<no investigation, no right to speak!
>a highly monopolized economy
no, you're confusing monopolization and centralization. centralization of capital is a consequence of monopolization (a consequence of competition). competition is a cornerstone of capitalism. capital was centralized in the ussr, but that was due to the social revolution and deliberate planning not because of competition of capitals.

>I stated that class rule was maintained

yeah, and i took a shit this morning.

you are a dogmatist.
<What strikes one most is the pedantry of all our petty-bourgeois Democrats and of all heroes of the Second International. Apart from the fact that they are all extremely fainthearted, that when it comes to the minutest deviation from the German model [of Socialism] even the best of them fortified themselves with reservations — apart from this characteristic, which is common to all petty-bourgeois Democrats and has been abundantly manifested by them throughout the revolution, what strikes one is their slavish imitation of the past.
<They all call themselves Marxists, but their conception of Marxism is impossibly pedantic. They have completely failed to understand what is decisive in Marxism, namely, its revolutionary dialectics. They have even absolutely failed to understand Marx's plain statements that in times of revolution the utmost flexibility is demanded
<What if the complete hopelessness of the situation, by stimulating the efforts of the workers and peasants tenfold, offered us the opportunity to create the fundamental requisites of civilization in a different way from that of the West European countries? Has that altered the general line of development of world history? Has that altered the basic relations between the basic classes of all the countries that are being, or have been, drawn into the general course of world history?
<If a definite level of culture is required for the building of socialism (although nobody can say just what that definite "level of culture" is, for it differs in every Western European country), why cannot we began by first achieving the prerequisites for that definite level of culture in a revolutionary way, and then, with the aid of the workers' and peasants' government and Soviet system, proceed to overtake the other nations?
<You say that civilization is necessary for the building of socialism. Very good. But why could we not first create such prerequisites of civilization in our country by the expulsion of the landowners and the Russian capitalists, and then start moving toward socialism? Where, in what books, have you read that such variations of the customary historical sequence of events are impermissible or impossible?
<Napoleon, I think, wrote: "On s'engage et puis … on voit." rendered freely this means: "First engage in a serious battle and then see what happens." Well, we did first engage in a serious battle in October 1917, and then saw such details of development (from the standpoint of world history they were certainly details) as the Brest peace, the New Economic Policy, and so forth. And now there can be no doubt that in the main we have been victorious.
<Our Sukhanovs, not to mention Social-Democrats still farther to the right, never even dream that revolutions cannot be made any other way. Our European philistines never even dream that the subsequent revolutions in Oriental countries, which possess much vaster populations in a much vaster diversity of social conditions, will undoubtedly display even greater distinctions than the Russian Revolution.
<It need hardly be said that a textbook written on Kautskian lines was a very useful thing in its day. But it is time, given that, to abandon the idea that it foresaw all the forms of development of subsequent world history. It would be timely to say that those who think so are simply fools.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1923/jan/16.htm

>>2386090
i'll be short because i don't think we are in disagreement about many things as you said but i want to comment on the three issues you pointed out
>- bureaucratic overload of the vanguard party and extinction of the revolutionary wave of mass movements in favour of 'stability'
this is the only one i find the weakest critique of the ussr. the question of the day reduced to SOIC or permanent revolution (as trotsky understood it). it was either to sacrifice the ussr for the possibility of european revolution or to not put too much hopes in europe at the time. considering that the german revolution failed (and this is, in my opinion, because the germans really didn't know how to do 'soviet' revolutions; their 1905 was in 1918 and their 1917 never came around) going full on SOIC is the reasonable choice at the time. did it swampify the movement? quite possibly so. but hindsight is always better looking back.
>- petty nationalism in poland taking priority over the class struggle
trve
>- lack of mass democracy in the party hindering the political maturation of the proletariat
idk about this one, there were waves both in the USSR and PRC with massive in party mobilizations and cultural revolutions. wouldn't really call it lack of mass democracy.

theres only one communism, the left-right bullshit is a literally bourgeois distinction that originates from the french revolution and has no relevance to the proletarian struggle and abolition of class society


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