One of the most bizarre aspects of the Western Left I've found is the absolute idealization, "oh they dindunuttin", infantalization and complete and total removal of any and all responsibility from Lumpenproles.
As someone who spent a while homeless and spent several years of fucking hell having to interact with antisocial lumpenprole ""homeless"", it honestly never shocks me how bizarrely protective and aggressive the majority of most Western Leftists are when it comes to their sheer, infantalization and worship of Lumpens and Lumpen behavior.
From my experiences, homelessness basically works in two regards, most homeless are "invisible homeless" like I was, had to sleep in car, shower at gym, still go work, couch surf etc. These are mostly all good people who have just been fucked over by circumstance, and frankly, most will get out of homelessness, they will eventually move into a share house or whatever. Average Homeless period for these people is 6 months. Only reason I was fucked over so hard was because of Covid lockdowns, which quite literally made it near impossible to actually fucking find a new house legally.
But long term homeless are not like this at all, I eventually had to start dealing with Long term homeless, and the vast majority were absolute personality disordered, psychotic pathological lying, scheming assholes. Myself being a leftist, often tried to help, but help was almost always returned with a twisted knife in the back. It became clear as well, that alot of long term homeless, weren't even homeless, they had bennies and housing and everything given to them through charity or Government, but they rather just spend it all bumming around, alcohol, drugs, prostitutes, being a general dickhead etc. Frankly, it's a pretty fucking chill life if you have no asperations and don't give a flying fucking fuck about the rest of society or yourself, and that honestly was the case with a majority of the long term homeless I interacted with, genuinely antisocial, pretty predatory people who had burned most of their, if not all bridges and worse, often dragged good but vulnerable people down to their level.
Tell this to most leftists though, and that homelessness won't be easily fixed by just "giving people homes" and worse of all, that long term homeless are actually frankly, the majority of the time, gaming the system and absolutely enjoy being antisocial, and it's instant wailing and gnashing. "THE RICH ARE JUST AS BAD" blah blah. Yeah, sure, but that doesn't stop the reality that this is a case where these people actively reject support to get on their feet, reject society, and choose to be predatory, antisocial fuckheads. Also because Bougies are bad, doesn't make bad behavior from other classes acceptable.
You see this a lot with say, frankly, criminal behaviour as well, it becomes a weird noble savage thing, where oh the only reason this community has an issue with crime is poverty, but that just isn't real and and is bizarrely a anti-working class attitude. Because people are poor, they are criminals and violent? I grew up in a poor community and shock horror, there was barely any crime at all, we could all leave our doors unlocked and everything. It wasn't until a pro-antisocial lumpenprole culture started to get pushed into youth and take over, did crime become far more visible and prevalent. Again, tell this to most leftists and again, wailing and gnashing, NOOOO POORS ARE NATURALLY GOING TO DO CRIME AND BE ANTISOCIAL ITS THEIR NATURE!
Then you just get the general "dindunuttin" nature of much of the left, where the the average person or cop or whatever is always wrong, and Lumpens are always right, and are always victims. Jordan Neely, WM3, CP5, George Floyd, Chris Kaba etc. Brazen antisocial criminals are always in the right, anybody holding them to account is always in the wrong, they dindunuttin. Where the fuck does this attitude even come from? It's perversely reactionary and completely antisocial.
Marx correctly identified the Lumpenproles as an antagonistic, reactionary class towards the general Proletariat, yet it seems the Western left aggressively fetishize and protect the Lumpens to just a bizarrely idiotic level, often making them seemingly the primary revolutionary subject. Why? How did Lumpen fetishization come about? Is it the legacy of Christianity or something?
>>2404241My view is that likely it's a mixture of culturalized Christianity (bring me your poor yada yada), Leftist empathy politics, Leftist oppression olympics and a natural overwhelming belief by most leftists that ties "victimhood" to Innocence. The view I believe of most leftists, is that "victims" are almost always innocent because of various reasons, like upbringing etc and victimhood largely absolves you of your actions.
That said, that is just my personal take on the issue. But I would like the input of others. Another is why the left is so often aggressive at anybody actually stating common sense, especially street sense about the reality of this stuff. Go read experiences about being even short term homeless on reddit and forums, and you will get the same stories as mine, how ruthless and vindictive most long term homeless were in their interactions with them. Yet like I said, bring up these stories among leftists and you're the one often treated with scorn. It's fucking weird.
>>2404263>Otherwise you think its their free will and genes or something like thatI think a lot of the case, it is actually genetic.
My general view from seeing both ends of society first hand, is that personality disorders dominate both ends of the spectrum.
Top end is people with little to no empathy, ruthless drive, again no good dead goes unpunished, but they are stable, they know how to play the game, build networks, put up charismatic masks etc.
Lower end of society is filled with the same type of people, but they are unstable, they don't play the game well so end up burning bridges, ruthless drive but mixed with black pill nihilism and drugs and that leads to a lot of the population of homeless and lumpens. Would not be shocked if it turned out that 5-10% of the general population had this sort of ingrained attitude as just their personality type.
>that assumes a collective has one opinionBecause the vast majority of Leftists I've encountered over my 20 years of being involved in Leftist politics from orgs to campaigns to of course online, have had largely this fetishization and infantalization of the Lumpenproletariat. The biggest left wing chimpouts in the past several decades have largely revolved around "dindunuttin" narrative around lumpens.
It's a bit ridiculous to deny that this isn't the major, status quo attitutude among Western Leftists.
>>2404264While this is obviously true, why is it that so many leftists are quick to rush to defend Lumpen behavior and attitudes though.
Seriously actually try talk about Homelessness from a standpoint beyond "they just need homes" and you start to get a really aggressive attitude from most Leftists and leftist communities I've interacted with.
Like I said in my initial post, true homelessness exists, but generally aren't the long term homeless you see. The average length of homelessness is 170-180 days. The long term homeless, you could literally give 98% of them a penthouse, a 7 figure career salary job, all the free mental health treatment they need, and within 2 weeks, they will be back on the street. That is really just sadly the reality, but again, every time I've brought this up among leftists, it's met with a pretty hostile attitude. Weirdly enough, the people who almost always agree with me, people who actually work with the homeless, people working in shelters, friends who work as nurses in mental health wards etc. But most leftists basically becoming jumping up and down seething wojack every time I've brought this up.
see
>>2404284>>2404286>>2404294 >>2404231Those people realized they have no future under capitalism, took the black pill and gave up conventional life as a prole slave. That can be easily romanticized by anarchists and sympathetically understood by leftists of all stripes.
Ultimately this is a capitalism problem. Under socialism they wouldn't exist. They would be resocialized, mental illnesses treated and drug addiction dealt with.
fyi giving them homes would end their homelessness by definition. That alone would clear the streets at night. It's an obvious solution to a obvious problem no matter their other mental issues.
>>2404650>>2404655
>It’s kind of why they have a fixation with squatting and soup kitchens, what is being demonstrated is that without authorities, if you did just want to spend your time smoking weed then someone will take it upon themselves to feed you for no reason and you could just take your pick of whatever home currently isn’t being occupied without the Man moving you along or even tossing you in jail.I always thought it was funny how ppl complaining about MLs and Anarchists sound more or less identical to a fox news pundits bitching abt le college kids. I could literally show an ML or an anarchist Robert conquest tier anti-communist propaganda and they would 100% believe me if I told them it was about MLs or Anarchists.
>>2404654jiggabased
>>2404231You are irritating twats and deserve to be abused. I will never apologize for assaulting the devils that have tortured me since the day that I was born.
That all said, I'm kind of a coward so I mostly get my antisocial fix trolling internet forums.
I'm not sure how to explain. The situation you describe is real. But also you should get your head kicked in and learn some fucking empathy.
The reality is that your politeness, your cleanliness, your normal, is constant violence against the reserve pool of labor discarded by the capitalist system.
It's kind of the case that I don't really know how to love people. It's mostly because I'm afraid all the time. Everything is a trick or some other bullshit. It's just the reality of growing up some flavor of minority. You don't have family, you don't have friends, you don't have people.
Anyhow I'm a communist because I hate the capitalists more than I hate the working class. But the reality is that I can't love others, the capitalists took that from me. I try my best to larp as a human and pretend to trust and love. But I'm not interested in people, you bore and irritate me with your petty bullshit and at best you're manipulative and deceiving.
I am a communist because suicide is not an effective enough means of self-destruction. The capitalists tore a hole out of humanity and I am the empty space left behind.
The single worst thing about you is that you're just too naively stupid to understand the misery you put others through.
IDK some people are just broken you know?
>>2404650Theory I've long held is that the Western Left is largely just a youth counter-culture movement for the most part, and this means "the more radical, the more cool", and this is why Anarchists have so much sway among the left here. Squats are a big example of this. The amount of times I've had leftists brag they just bummed around squats for 6 months lol.
But you see this in the big narratives as well, it's "defund", it's ACAB, it's Landback, it's all antisocial anarchist nonsense that also almost always conveniently provides a "leftist" argument for privatization funny that.
>>2404632Vast majority of long term homeless are almost always homeless by choice. Average long term homeless person has had numerous times housing has been offered to them, but taking the housing comes with restrictions on their lifestyle that they don't want to sacrifice, not having drugs, seeing a counciller etc. Lots of the people you see on streets, actually already have public housing (watch at the end of the day how many homeless in supermarkets stock up on frozen goods), but they continue the hobo life because they like it.
>>2405386> not having drugsAbout a tenth of the population relies on some form of legal smack.
> seeing a counciller etc.Probably because shrinks and social workers are power tripping psychopaths. At least cops just beat your ass directly instead of gaslighting you.
>>2404719Everyone leftist figure here in the UK literally doing "he dindunuttin" over Chris Kaba, a literal gangland hitman, who just did driveby shootings in crowded areas, and who was killed as he was trying to kill police, was one of the most blackpilling, wild things I've ever seen about the left. You really start to realize that much of the left are just so naive it's literally to the point of antisocial idiocy.
>>2404643Honestly, leftist orgs should have a policy where you are assigned a Cluster B to look after for 6 months, to shake you out of naivete and give you the realization that some humans are just genuinely just pathologically evil, two faced, scumbag, bridge burning narcissists and will stab you in the back while always playing the victim. The saying "No good deed goes unpunished" imo is almost always in relation to someone trying to help a Cluster B and it backfiring and blowing up in their face.
>>2405394While the DSM is obvious unscientific bullshit, I've dealt with plenty of BPDs/NPDs before and they are 100% a real thing. They play by a script that is so 1:1 that I can pretty much identify a BPD or NPD within 20-40 minutes of talking to them, with essentially a 100% success rate. They always play by the same script. Hilariously a few weeks ago, told my friend about this, they met someone in the smoking area of a pub, instantly played my "red flags" chart in their mind while talking to the person, identified them as BPD, of course, was able to bait them into admitting they were BPD so it's not just me.
While there is obviously non-justified stigma against ADHD people, high functioning autists etc. imo there is actually not enough stigma against Cluster Bs. If people were able to identify Cluster B's much more effectively, I think a lot of relationship, domestic violence and general violent or abusive crime could be effectively avoided, and it would be great that people could see how many NPD sociopaths and BPDs dominate the top levels of the Bourgiousie. The high level Cluster Bs are rewarded by Capitalism because they are able to effectively harness their empathy disorder in a dog eat dog system.
>>2405386>the Western Left is largely just a youth counter-culture movement for the most partI think this phenomena is basically happening to all of western politics where an increasing amount of people are interacting with politics as a method of failed self-actualization often with buying stupid shit being a component. its funny cuz even anarchists have a term for this iirc they call if "lifestylism"
>Vast majority of long term homeless are almost always homeless by choiceLike I said I do agree a certain amount of long term homeless are more or less homeless by choice in one way or another I honestly don't see how you could even begin to quantify that in a meaningful way to determine that the vast majority of homeless are willingly street homeless. If you have a source by all means post one but I don't even know how you would begin to verify that as a researcher.
So OP's position is: some people are genetically anti-social self-sabotagers and they shouldn't be helped. No solution is provided for their harmful existence, but with the insistence it's genetic and incurable, it maybe gives a hint what direction OP is thinking
Addiction is curable, cluster B disorders are treatable and are both environmental and genetic, the current lib NGO capitalist, as well as carceral, methods of addressing homelessness aren't adequate to the huge requirements of getting a person's life back on track, and neither is the state, Much of OP's position is hypotheticals and being flabbergasted that people don't appreciate eugenicism and untested hypotheticals as a reason to blame individuals when we know society is fucked and hurts people. Plus not everyone has a car, not everyone can keep their job, not everyone has valid identification, not everyone has a network to fall back on, and shelters can leave people worse off than when they went in. And lastly, if you demonize everyone with a disorder, addiction, or lack of property and social network, you're demonizing exactly all of the people most hurt by the society that supposedly you still understand is a problem. If you demonize the people produced by the society for being a predictable product of it's harms, I don't think you can solidly or consistently hold a critique of that society.
>>2405402Not as accurately, go read r/bpd and you can definitely see certain traits but I don't think I could pick it up so easily, beyond an obsession with calling out everyone in their life as a "narcissist". In real life it's far easier because they tend to follow a script to quickly create a "trauma bond" and exploit your empathy.
>basically happening to all of western politics where an increasing amount of people are interacting with politics as a method of failed self-actualization often with buying stupid shit being a component. Yeah pretty much, but the Western left in particular for the most part, I think is just largely the Punk movement in a red flag cosplay. Most young leftists I meet, would have been crust punks if this was the 1980s and they wouldn't really identify so much as left, moreso with Punk.
>If you have a source by all means post one but I don't even know how you would begin to verify that as a researcher.Source is mostly talking to people who work with homeless charities, talking to homeless etc. You can even read subs like r/homeless to see many homeless straight up admit that most around them are homeless by choice because they don't want to abide by social or societies rules.
Can also tell you from talking to council workers who were friends, in this sort of department, they straight up told me, 100% of the homeless you saw in my city, were homeless by choice, they actually had excess public housing and support services for the demand. Not a single person in the city I was in back then, needed to be homeless.
I guess it depends on how much addiction is a choice, but the reality is, if most homeless stopped the drugs, they would be off the streets in a matter of weeks or a few months.
>>2405413Cluster B's always try to trauma bond immediately.
First they will be waaay too open for a normal person, they will tell you about things that are just weirdly personal, they always love playing the victim, "I'm an empath, I have too much empathy", they start mirroring, say you are talking to a 10/10 girl and you mention you like Warhammer, suddenly she is 100% into Warhammer except she's a total stacy and you know from looking at her she's never taken a step into a GW store in her life, usually they will try to pry trauma/hardship issues in your life to create a bond. Other also easy signs is most BPDs at least, generally dressed "alternative", wacky hair colour, tattoos out the ass etc. Another is any form of cutting.
For NPDs a good tell is they NEVER SHUT THE FUCK UP and always dominate the conversation and turn it back into themselves, also the constant bragging, brazen lying with things that are blatantly bullshit. The lying itself is a test, because they are testing if you are an easy mark. A person with a backbone will tell them they are full of shit, if you do not, they will start escallating with more and more lies and shit tests to see if you have a spine or not, then starting to employ the same oh woe me script as a BPD.
>>2405442Lumpenproles are a reactionary class and enemy of the working classes by every definition of Marxism. Marx and Engels quite literally call them dangerous social scum lmao.
>>2405411> cluster B disorders are treatable and are both environmental and geneticThey are in no way seriously treatable. In fact, according to research with NPD and ASPD, treatment tends to make them even more predatory and dangerous because it just teaches them how to mask their predatory sociopathic behaviour.
I'm highly suspicious BPD is "treatable" had a friend who was DBT "cured" and he was still a sociopathic, predatory gigacunt. Just no longer acted like a Emo crawling in my skin cringelord.
Yes, some people are GENETICALLY bad. I don't get why the leftists would ignore the material reality and just absolute, indisputable scientific fact that some mental disorders, can make into a sociopathic fuckhead.
>you're demonizing exactly all of the people most hurt by the society that supposedly you still understand is a problem. Lumpens literally choose to act outside of the system as a reactionary class who act predatory against the most vulnerable of the Proletariat. They are literal, extremely dangerous class enemies, failed petite bougiousie.
>>2404665Only BBC is real
>>2404953Pink 2 inch, black 20 inch
>>2404231After the fall of communism in Europe, social democratic parties took over and consistently degraded into standard liberals. So their idealism, their concept of liberal "progress" , "harm reduction" and identity politics became the norm. The lumpen are fetishized for the same reason migrants are, to obscure the material reasons for the phenomenon and make class analysis impossible.
You cannot say that migration and the consequences it may have on the local labor market is intrinsically liked to globalization, just another kind of capital flowing across borders of liberal states. Or how the migration flows complement other relations between places, imperialism.
You can only canonize the migrant or demonize them, because that's what is socially and economically rewarding, per the liberal superstructure. And the culture war is the engine of false consciousness that keeps it so. Being more radical means going harder at IDPOL.
>>2405790Needle exchange enables narcotic market and swell the lumpen class. Narcotic dealers and addicts must be reformed or eliminated like China
>>2405804They help capital aligned classes only therefore they are bad. Medicaid and food stamp qualification with full time job is practically impossible therefore proletarians are excluded therefore these are lumpen systems that torment proletarians by maximizing idleness and lowering wages
>>2405807same thing evidently
>>2405810>Medicaid and food stamp qualification with full time job is practically impossiblecap
I believe a lot of leftists have at the very least, unconscious contempt for the working class because they generally are not keeping up with the progressive causes they support. Not all, but probably a good proportion of the terminally online, ideology shopping people who use political theory as a way to feel unique.
I see this most of the time when leftists (Proudhonists) start valorizing the petty-bourgeois over everything, describing Chinese labor as not being "human" labor is a classic, but I also see it when they start to place themselves as the "protectors" of the underprivileged class. They don't actually spend time with them or organize them in any productive way; they keep them at a distance. Take CHAZ for example, they invited the homeless into the park not to be equals, but to squat on the property and do drugs to occupy the space and scare regular people away while they were gone to work or whatever. They were taking advantage of them, just in a more "caring" way. Mods always get into a tiffy about mentioning CHAZ but I think it was the purest example I can give that doesn't involve referencing an event 100 years ago the 13-year-olds here won't read.
As for opinions on the lumpen themselves, I hold firm to what Marx wrote about them because it's been historically proven with Napoleon III, Nazi Germany and Indonesia for example, that they get easily coerced into reactionary pogroms. The mistake people make though is that they label fucking everything as lumpen, and with no help from Marx's earlier works labeling everyone he is mad at as Lumpen with a clear bit of snarkiness that gets lost when autists cherry-pick his quotes. His mature work, like Capital, got rid of the term and instead there's a surplus population within the proletariat which stratified between people who get laid off often like when oil wells dry up, irregularly employed people like day laborers, people who simply can't find a job because there isn't enough and then at the bottom of all that are the criminals. It's absolute buffoonery to describe a guy laid off after his employer went under as the same as cartel hitmen, but people play dumb to be provocative. All the attempts at defending them I see is just idealism, like "we could get gangs to fight the cops" but they just want to BE cops like in Indonesia.
Not just leftists, but a good part of Western culture in general. In my country all young people listen to is latin music about raping, killing, drugs and all that shit.
Latin music has always been beautiful, talking about community, joy, or Catholic values. Now it's all trap, reggaeton, and pure trash. It has even influenced how young people dress, who look like gang members. I seriously think it's a CIA psyop, the same way they in the same way that they promoted evangelicalism because they thought Catholicism is too "socialist".
Now you have a good part of Latin boomers defending Israhell
>>2406665A pure psychopath is the person that becomes elite, because primary psychopathy is largely just a lack of empathy, which gets rewarded heavily in a Capitalist dog eat dog system. Lawyers, CEO's, Politicians, Surgeons are the groups with the highest levels of people who would be classed as Psychopaths on the PCL-R.
It's when your Psychopathy is pared with unstable personality disordered traits, does it become Borderline or ASPD because the lack of empathy plays into other disordered traits that fuck up your life.
If you are a psychopath, but it doesn't Disorder your life, then it's not actually a "disorder" thus isn't actually considered Cluster B or even a disorder at all, hence no categorization.
>>2407548> Now it's all trap, reggaeton, and pure trash. It has even influenced how young people dress, who look like gang members. I seriously think it's a CIA psyopSame thing happened in my community as well, now it's all gangbanging, killing eachother over postcodes and "respect". The influence of Modern African American garbage on our community has been a huge negative.
The reality is even huge portions of African American's realize this as well, I've heard numerous times Black Americans straight up say the culture was far, FAR better even under Jim Crow than the modern iteration. CIA I think plays a large part in why the culture became shit, it's the exact same as flooding black communities with meth and crack.
>>2408826You are the one equating lumpens with black people
You are the one denigrating latinogods and thirdworldchads
>>2408891That’s not what I said
The problem is that gang violence has become the culture
Culture evolves, it is not fixed. And lefties conveniently ignore how entertainment industry porkies have slowly but surely turned ‘black’ culture synonymous with gangbanging.
>>2408891That anon is right
Being a YN is fetishized in hood culture
And a lot of this is because of media that record labels profited from much like narcocorridos in Mexico
>>2408880What's wrong with acknowledging gang culture as a psyop meant to destroy poor people? american blacks were getting a bit too conscious and developing a real revolutionary potential, so the CIA went and made up gang culture and filled their streets with drugs, and also spread evangelical christianity to make sure there was no chance in hell they'd think of prosperity gospel.
This worked wonders so now you see the same in latam:hyperindividualistic greed worshipping gang culture EVERYWHERE, poor neighborhoods filled with drug dealers, evangelical churches spreading zionism and hatred. Funny thing is that this isn't necessarily spread by rap or by stuff made by black folks. For example here in Chile most gangbangers are obsessed with the fast and the furious and its a running joke in all of latam that they all imagine themselves as Toretto.
>>2408897You said that the negative influence of "modern black culture" (whatever that means) is "real". I.e. the culture is what produces gang violence or at least has a substantial impact on the continuation and expansion of gang violence, rather than the obvious truth that it is gang violence that influences the culture, which the culture will in turn reflect
Now you're talking about black culture just being gang violence like a racist lmao
I'm sorry bro, but you might be retarded
>>2408904I guess without rap music there'd be no gang violence then huh
Like I've said a dozen times before, this board lacks any kind of nuance, and a great degree of "analysis" here quickly exposes itself as simply being vulgar materialism, the kind that acts to justify already held beliefs. Don't like X music? X music is indicative of bourgeoisie degeneration. Don't like the Y part of a culture? The culture as a whole needs to be dealt with. OP is just randomly assorted ancedotes that offers no concrete data, analysis, or helpful solutions, just infantile twitter-brained raving, yet is somehow taken as a serious starting point for discussion. Practically nobody here has done any deeper research outside of recounting personal experiences, yet everyone thinks they are qualified to make definitive conclusions, and nearly nobody here has read Marx, yet will happily try to vaguely refer to concepts he discussed without any of the nuance he and later Marxists discussed them with. So many of you talk like children, and I have little doubt you do the same in real life as well, or rather people discover such and distance themselves accordingly, which is why so many of you can only speak of the equally noxious people who make company with you, and who you begrudgingly despise.
>>2408931>GANG CULTUREI would be interested to know what exactly you define as gang culture, as the vast majority of the so-called "left", especially on this site, has repeatedly demonstrated a massively racist understanding of this concept.
>LIKE SPREADING DRUGSFair. This is absolutely some bullshit the CIA was and is on. That being said I would be careful to maintain an understanding that internal factors, rather than external, are the key to the success or failure of revolution. Drugs absolutely decimated communities and the US govt did it intentionally, but why was this able to happen? Try not to be racist in answering that question.
>EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANITYIs by far a white, rather than Black, phenomenon. Are you sure you aren't simply thinking of the Black church more generally? Are you capable of discerning the shifting relations of the Black church with Black communities and accurately distinguish it from white fascist protestant conservatism? While that white fascism has managed to drag along some subjective number of Black people, it is still not a dominant religious force on an objective level.
>ISNT IT TOO MUCH OF A COINCIDENCE THAT THIS SHIT STARTS EXPLODING IN GROWTH ALMOST IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE BLACK PANTHERS GET SLAUGHTERED?The drugs? Verifiably not a coincidence for sure. We have direct evidence that happened. For so-called "gang culture", I would encourage you to study the degeneration of South American Marxist-Leninist revolutionary armies/parties such as the FARC to better understand how many modern gangs ended up emerging from Panther youth and community defense organizations.
>THE CIA SAW THE BLACKS BECOMING A LEGITIMATE THREAT TO THE MAMMON CULT THAT IS CAPITALISM AND DECIDED TO SHUT IT THE FUCK DOWNAgain, you are looking at this in an incomplete way. You say I "don't deserve to carry the name of Mao" and yet fail to apply even the most basic methods of analysis that Mao laid out. The CIA is not all powerful, nor any intelligence agency for that matter. If they were able to simply "shut it down" then we wouldn't have seen any revolution in the 60s period. Why didn't they flood Vietnam, China, Cuba, etc. with drugs, introduce religion, and create "gang culture" there? Are they stupid?
Black revolution for national self-determination was absolutely a threat, and produced key triumphs and the most advanced Communist Party the US has yet seen. However, the general confusion of the International Communist Movement at the time was also expressed in the Black liberation movement, and generated internal contradictions which the CIA could capitalize on to dismantle that movement in particular while it failed to dismantle other struggles (even when those revolutions themselves were later undone by their own internal factors).
>>2408969>the vast majority of the so-called "left", especially on this site, has repeatedly demonstrated a massively racist understanding of this concept.I'm south american and people associate gang culture with black people because they're the first people this psyop was thrown at, but in my life I've never seen a black person being involved in gang shit. In fact, blacks were straight up not a thing in my country until the haitians came and those mfs are the chillest in pretty much our entire population with a crime rate much lower than the locals per capita lol.
Gang culture is nothing but worshipping organized crime (in fact, the hollywood obsession with italian mafia is possibly the first instance of this rather than the ghetto gang stuff), rugged individualism, machismo, violence, materialism and might makes right. It's a lumpen coded right wing ideology.
As for the thing with evangelical christianity you're correct in saying that its more of a white phenomenom but imo its the same brand of psyop: meant to destroy potential growth of proletarian and revolutionary conscience among the poor.
>>2408974I don't think I'm smarter then anybody else, and nothing I've stated has anything to do with how "smart" anybody is. I'm pretty sure many people here are conventionally quite "smart", I just think quite a lot of them also have zero humility or nuance, things I value just as much.
>>2408980>nice chatgpt shitpostFunny thing, somebody once said I type like chatgpt. I have no idea how to take that, as I've never used chatgpt (or any AI for that matter), but if it's me sounding pretentious in some way, I'll acknowledge that lol.
>>2408987>I just think your whining is pointless beyond stroking your own egoTake it that way then, I can't convince you otherwise if you've made it certain to yourself that that is my motivation. It's an issue I called out and have called out because it's an issue I see, and it's largely out of frustration if anything else.
>>2408989>Humility and nuance is for faggots and no one buys your fake humble act.I'm not trying to be humble if that's how I come off, though I genuinely want to know why you think these things are improper or bad. Nuance should should be primary for any Marxist or somebody following in the Marxist tradition.
>>2408993>You haven't learned or investigated anything and you definitely haven't questioned your own biases. I haven't in this thread. I don't know where the jumping point for that would be, because there is little investigation happening here to begin with, just anecdotal rhetoric and people largely rationalizing their existent dislike of things.
>You literally entered this thread calling everyone else wrong and begging people to suck your dick for claiming to be correct over everyone else.Not everyone tbh, just a lot. If you think that asking people to suck my dick, or that I think I'm correct over everyone, thats on you. None of that is my point, my point is that the way we discuss, act out, and try to come to conclusions is flawed and childish. The very beginning of this thread was just an anecdotal strawman of leftists regarding lumpen fetishization.
>>2408886I want your mother to die
>>2408907>>2408887Not MLoids reposting the most lazy limpwristed “I don’t hate nighurs just nighur culture!” ass nonsense mid-00s neocons used to spew
>>2409046>Yes they provide something to the conversation because as retarded as they are they at the very least provide something to argue against and discuss. Twitter-brained thought process. Just saying shit is more valuable then what's being said for faggots like you.
>You on the other hand provide nothing but masterbatory self aggrandizement talking about how shit everyone's opinions are without contributing anything of interest yourselfA lot, not everyone. It's not even the opinions, it's how the opinions are formulated and how they are come to, and then how they are argued with the thinnest materialist veneer. You want a thread with discussion and genuine contribution that isn't debate-bro shitflinging? Then have a thread that requests discussion, and isn't a loaded paragraph built on a giant assumption.
>>2409059More meaningless self aggrandizement
No one cares dude, go to a different thread if you hate debate bro shit
>>2408913Stop putting words in my mouth anon.
I think a closer equivalent is like patriarchy and domestic abuse. Obv the main cause of domestic abuse is poverty causing people to be depressed and tripping on moonshine alcohol all the time but a huge factor is the already existing cultural problems of patriarchal mentality making men dismissive about female pain
What you are doing is the equivalent of "why are you making this about males instead of about economic conditions, are you an anti male sexist" if i say that patriarchy is a factor in domestic abuse.
Similarly hood culture is a factor in gang violence. Doesn't mean i blame violence on rap and not systemic exploitation lol
>>2409083Comparing the patriarchy with "hood culture" is even more retarded
Patriarchy is not just a culture, it's a whole system of societal structuring. So yes that does have obvious and direct influence on people's perceptions and actions, it's nothing like "hood culture" in that sense
>>2409107Alright this has got to be fucking bait or you're an actual twitter libshit obsessed with accusing everyone of being a heckin racist to make yourself look more moral in comparison or an amerishit so incapable of understanding that other countries do not have american brand racial tension that they straight up just create an imaginary world in their heads in which they do.
The entire point of my post wasn't "theres crime because black americans" it was "lumpens and gang culture are a product of capitalism and CIA destabilization tools and it has nothing to do with race" If anything I hope everyone in america gets killed and goes straight to hell except for the blacks, the only people in that cucked as fuck country that actually have a backbone and have managed to become real threats to capitalist establishment SEVERAL TIMES. I know for sure you're a white american moderately wealthy university student and therefore not an actual human being please kill yourself right this very instant.
>>2409273Ignoring your faggot ass would be the greatest contribution he could make to the thread
Slicing off your phallus should be the legal punishment for sophists
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