This is not an anti-Hamas post, this is not to discourage Palestinian resistance or to legitimise Israel. It is also well established that the violence, ethnic cleansing and land grabbing did not start on October 7th. My question is simple, what did Hamas expect to happen after October 7th? Like I cannot understand what this attack, even if everything went their way, would positively accomplish?
131 posts and 18 image replies omitted.>>2409390>Israel was going to be destroyed in his lifetime It will, if he got 50 years.
There are serious concerns if even the US itself will make it more than a couple decades.
I don't think this system has too much gas in the tank but we will have to see obviously.
>>2409031I didn't know you were expected to justify resisting genocide (note here, tactical disagreement is not "justify yourself")
In terms of justice it is very very simple
All action against NATO is defensive in nature, righteous and justified.
Not gonna argue this point. Thank you for your attention.
>>2412025 (me)
Ok to be slightly more precise but using excessive words it's NATO + their fellow gangsters (allegedly neutral westoids, Japan, Israel ofc)
>>2410805Of course they knew something was gonna happen. This is not debatable, it's in official investigations. The question is to what extent they approved of it and deliberately held back.
Such and such number of civ casualties
is useful when your dead are worth hundreds of times (limit unknown) the "barbarians" in the eyes of the populace and w*stern allies.
>>2409746 is right. The point is a desperate attempt to try to do anything to improve the situation.
To be honest, the October 7 uprising played into Israel's plans far more than it did for Hamas. You could be a conspiracist and say that it was ordered by Israel, or you could say that Israel made the attacks a far bigger deal than what Hamas expected it to be.
Bibi needed that war to last longer in government, but that is not the structural reason. The structural reason is American decline and the way Israel is trying to prepare for the day free American money and guns won't come in anymore. Demolishing Palestine, Syria, Hezbollah was required to try to make the situation more stable as Israel will have to rely on its own economy, which is tiny as is appropriate for such a tiny country. In no way can it sustain that kind of military activity under capitalism. It may prove impossible to actually stabilize the situation, as Palestine supporters clearly want, but only real events can prove that. Communists and radical liberals might just be far more supportive of that struggle than the vast majority of Arabs.
>>2411064Israelis
chose to be killers of Palestinian children. As in, a huge chunk of Israel's population was born abroad and migrated there from countries that weren't even trying to attack them. The largest group is Soviet people who decided to go there in the 90s for economic reasons. They weren't even disproportionately poor. Most of these people support eastern european liberalism, which was the reason these economic reasons arose in the first place. A secondary motivation was also that they wanted to become western and those backward slavs clearly weren't going to make the cut, so they learned a dead language and adopted a made-up nationality to be trve westerners. Millions of people who were just as Jewish as these Israelis remained where they were since they weren't psychopaths who couldn't care less about the world as long as they get their money. They self-selected for being the most vile people.
>>2411965>Shine on you crazy diamondI'm rolling a boulder uphill.
>>2411962>It will, if he got 50 years … I don't think this system has too much gas in the tank but we will have to see obviously.Hey, I'm not ruling it out.
>>2412236>In no way can [Israel] sustain that kind of military activity under capitalism. It may prove impossible to actually stabilize the situation, as Palestine supporters clearly want, but only real events can prove that.I don't know the answer to this (and might also be where Marxism comes in useful) is to what extent does Israeli capitalism run on war in the first place, and to what extent that is sustainable or not. This is the paradox of it. Because I don't get the sense that Israel seeks stability at all, rather it prefers this constant level of instability, because for whatever reason they feel like they can manage it better. In the West Bank for example, the Israelis are constantly trying to provoke the Palestinians into lashing out. David Graeber wrote about this:
<And you realize: you’re going to have to live like this forever. There is no “political process.” It will never end. Barring some kind of divine intervention, you can expect to be facing exactly this sort of terror and absurdity for the rest of your natural life. But when someone does snap under the pressure, and, say, stabs a soldier at a checkpoint, or joins a cell to shoot at settlers, there’s no one specific act one can point to that seems to justify what seems like an act of disproportionate madness … What sort of Palestinians, then, are the occupation authorities trying to create? Clearly not docile and obedient ones. There would be no reason to engineer a life of continual hardship, terror, and humiliation—to ensure, for instance that practically every Palestinian mother and father has to worry if their 12-year-old son or daughter will come home safely from school, or is already lying shackled and blindfolded in a concrete cell—if one were trying to pacify a former enemy. The only answer that makes sense is that the Israel forces want the Palestinians to seethe; they want there to be resistance; but the also want to ensure that political resistance is completely ineffective. They want a population that is compliant on a day-to-day basis, but that periodically explodes, individually or collectively, in a unstrategic and uncoordinated fashion that can represented to the outside world as irrational demonic madness.
<And why would they wish to do this? Almost every Arab political analyst I talked to considered the answer self- evident. Israel’s economy has become largely dependent on the high-tech arms trade, and the supply of complex electronic “security” systems. Israel is today the world’s fourth largest arms exporter, after the US, Russia, and UK (it has recently pushed back France to #5). This is actually quite a feat for such a tiny country. But as everyone also hastens to add: Israeli arms and security systems have an enormous advantage over their rivals, one Israeli firms never fail to emphasize in their promotional literature. They are extensively field-tested. This new type of shell that was used to destroy tunnels in Gaza! This new type of random-distribution tear gas dispenser was successfully used against protestors in the Balata refugee camp. This new type of laser-detection device has repeatedly foiled attacks on settlers. Arab resistance has become a key economic resource for Israeli capital, and were it to completely quiet down, the export economy would take an immediate hit.
<If bullying is to be defined as, in its essence, a form of aggression designed to produce a reaction that can then be used as retroactive justification for the initial act of aggression itself, then the Israeli Occupation has taken bullying and turned it into a principle of governance. Everything is designed to provoke. The provocations are daily. They are ugly and humiliating. But they are also designed to fly just under the point of flagrant, undeniable aggression, where you can claim they were not even, precisely, an “attack,” but like the schoolyard bully who’s constantly subtly poking and jabbing and kicking his victim, hoping for some outraged burst of ineffective rage that can get the victim hauled before the principal.https://davidgraeber.org/articles/hostile-intelligence-reflections-from-a-visit-to-the-west-bank/ >>2410136>How is this not a recipe for an endless insurgency that would mirror that of the Palestinians? Well if Palestinians dont treat Israelis the way Israelis treat Palestinians.
>How would this not compromise the viability of a Palestinian state?I think there would be a stay behind network that would do terrorisms so you would have a situation like Ukraine, but the new state(s) would also have history to learn from.
>>2414567Not even american. Here's the problem: BDS has existed for many decades now, so you are not saying anything new here, yes?
These things take time. The US, Israel and all the rest (also-ran, like evropa, who will get cannibalized bigly) are on a pretty steep downward trajectory.
We are gonna win in the end. Question is how long it will take and how much blood will be spilled.
>>2414572>Not even american. Here's the problem: BDS has existed for many decades now, so you are not saying anything new here, yes?What does the novelty of my argument have to do with anything?
>These things take time. The US, Israel and all the rest (also-ran, like evropa, who will get cannibalized bigly) are on a pretty steep downward trajectory.Ok, still not a counter-argument to anything I said. I would like to provide clarity, I don't think there is a strong basis for Zionism in the US, especially if people who are supposedly anti-Zionist would stop trying to always be "apologists" to put it most bluntly for Zionists. "I'm getting in the mind of Zionist!" To do what? Appease?
>>2414573Just vibes
>you all>hasbaraAnd what counter-argument? I generally don't argue.
Ok, I have no horse in this race really. But "why understand the enemy?" also seems naive on its face. I dunno, like Sun Tzu said, you need to understand yourself and the enemy, then everything will be breezy.
>>2414622Did I say otherwise?
I am all for BDS and would go further but it's not up to me.
As far as I am concerned, push them all into the sea. It's just not realistic, it's not political in a meaningful sense.
I don't know where this charge even comes from.
Now I allegedly sympathize with not Hamas (who I do sympathize with) but the exterminist regime known as Israel?
Normally, I am accused of being a Putin sympathizer and those dastardly Chinese.
>>2414629Opinions and political feasibility can change anon. Push your position as much as is feasible right now and think in decades not years. Your "not politically realistic" seems defeatist to me
Did not mean to accuse you of being a zio simp
>>2414629>Now I allegedly sympathize with not Hamas (who I do sympathize with) but the exterminist regime known as Israel?Why are you acting like we've all been having a long conversation with you where we all have names and whatever? I only know this post by you and the one before. Who accused you off sympathizing with Hamas? Why did you say that?
>As far as I am concerned, push them all into the sea. It's just not realistic, it's not political in a meaningful sense.No one said that either.
Anyways let's get back to the point besides whatever your personal bullshit on an anonymous messageboard. You guys are literally apologists. You aren't trying to "know your enemy." You don't try to give an accurate appraisal of Israelis, you like to give them a devil's advocate reading, because you always like to think you will be able to appeal to the Zionists humanity. That's all well and good, I wish they would see the light of day and stop being evil too, but I will not bend over backwards to spare their feelings because "you're really in the mind of the Zionist" and therefore we shouldn't kind them genocidal because of your insight from "inside the mind of a Zionist" that tells you they won't like that.
Anyways before you make another defensive ass post that doesn't respond to a single thing I said while trying to gish gallop all over the place. Tell me what has your internalization of Zionism and defense of them ITT done for you to help you combat Zionism?
>>2414780>why you acting like blabla>you guysetc. etc.
Yeah, yeah I am everything you hate. But again, I have not come to argue. I am beyond you. I have already said what I wanted to say. Now it is on you to parse it.
Run along, bubbala
>>2414795Yes, you can notice
words
I do think there is a strong projection coming off you.
Won't go into too much detail.
It's no good to give medical advice to strangers on the internet, after all
Nonetheless, sorry, look into lithium.
>>2408877According to Hamas themselves the civilian killings were a mistake.
It's one of those inconvenient truths that makes the 'decolonisation is not a metaphor, kill civilians' crowd look like idiots because they inadvertently paint Hamas to be more bloodthirsty than they actually are
>>2414646Ahhh
So Hamas copers in chat still telling themselves they’re winning because the world says the genocide is very not good while the genocide continues to happen eh?
Maybe Hamas will finally achieve victory when the last Palestinian in Gaza is murdered and the Western leftists lead their biggest protest yet (so America gives Israel a trillion dollars in response)
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