This is not an anti-Hamas post, this is not to discourage Palestinian resistance or to legitimise Israel. It is also well established that the violence, ethnic cleansing and land grabbing did not start on October 7th. My question is simple, what did Hamas expect to happen after October 7th? Like I cannot understand what this attack, even if everything went their way, would positively accomplish?
>>2408946sex with virgins aint even enjoyable man
maybe a couple of virgins out of the 72… but all of them? Hell no
>>2408996what damage did Israel incur exactly?
minimal damage which the American taxpayer will repair and even upgrade in no time
the damage of the Palestinian side, however… horrible.
>>2408877Apparently the original expectation is they would get like 4 or 5 hostages, and use them to get Palestinian hostages released.
Then the operation happened, and they realised the IDF was nowhere to be seen, so they headed towards their largely military targets, but then were floorded by other Jihadi and such gangs that came in afterwards and apparently the ones that committed most atrocities.
Music Festival was largely the result of the IDF being fucking RETARDED and funelling fleeing people into oncoming Hamas forces heading towards Re'im Military Base, then blasting them both with Helicopters and gunfire.
>>2408996A one off card were the counterbuff is open genocide seems not a great choice (but alas the other side was covert genocide in the last stage of the normalisation so who am I to judge)
Each soon to be opened embassy in the garden is weighted in a meat cube each.
>>2409118Sure
Why do MLoids feel like they owe anything to brown reactionaries?
>>2409123your question presents a fantasy of yours as reality
MLoids do not owe reactionaries shit. You have ML Derangement Syndrome.
>>2409109Hmmm interesting now that you put it that way. I tend to see only the uncritical pro-Hamas types here.
If I may ask you: is there an Israeli proletariat? If yes, what are your thoughts about them?
>>2408877>Why Al-Aqsa FloodMy opinion remains that: We will eventually find out the detes after the cold war.
Until then, I remain skeptical of narratives. IMHO the situation with MENA is akin to that of Europe. It was one of the critical points of the system where US hegemony was fraying. What level of "responsibility" comes from opportunist liberals seeking to further contest US hegemony for their own profit is irrelevant to me.
The base situation is US/"western" hegemony, and the results of the crises of that terrible system are always their fault as far as assigning responsibility goes. For the same reasons, for example, that Israel and Zionism, are to me, 100% to blame for 100% of the violence that occurs as a result of the settler colonial system they enforce, regardless of the details.
Similarly for Ukraine/Russia. But you get called a zigger these days for floating the idea that the world hegemon has agency.
>>2409155You're the one blowing their lid about it faggot, but sure I'm "hysterical" for using the word propagandize lmao
Kill yourself ziorat
>>2409124Necessity and last resort in what regard specifically?
Between 2021 and right now, to not be a dick, what has Hamas gained for Palestinians? Especially if I’m unwilling to count “dying in front of western cameras” as a gain?
>>2409132Lmao asking leftoids for non-moralist reasons they shill for reactionaries is making propaganda?
Why can’t you respond to me with a materialist class centered answer instead of some Star Wars capeshit tier rant about the resistance? Does it just make MLoids happy when Palestinians die or something? Are you just happy they’re dying with the dignity of Hamas militants killing like one IDF soldier every three months over the indignity of communism ending the genocidal violence and endless war in the region?
>>2409134>No don’t get in the way of my nationalist fantasies of the dignity of being genocided in the name of resistance rather than liberated in the name of communism>>2409140Every country has a proletariat, realistically the only way to end zionist settler colonialism is through communism, which requires proletarian internationalism in opposition to the bourgeoisie of all countries
Unfortunately MLoids hold to the nationalist fantasy that Hamas magically defeats the IDF and expels all Israelis and maintains a wholesome bourgeois theocratic national state; alternatively the fantasy is that China and Russia stop cutting weapons deals with Israel long enough to bomb them instead
>>2409245Then why does the thought of proletarian revolution anger you even when it’s more realistic than Hamas ethnically cleansing Israel?
Why do MLs think Hamas externally destroying the Israeli government and getting the population to leave is more realistic than Palestinians and Israelis destroying Israel in the name of communism? If both are equally unrealistic to you, why do you only imagine the outcome where the bourgeoisie is victorious?
>>2409259Hamas isn’t a synonym for Palestinians no matter how much the IDF, Hamas, and leftoids want it to be.
I’m asking why you shill for Hamas which is a choice ML moralists themselves made when they retardedly took at face value Israelo propaganda that supporting Palestinians means you uhhhh need to not criticize Hamas
Honestly I don’t give a shit about some Israelis that died on 10/7, I’m just perplexed that leftoids to this day have not a single criticism about the military strategy of religious nationalists whose only actual outcome has been Israel massively ramping up the genocide and successfully depopulating Gaza but uhhhhh at least the world is appalled?
And mate, reactionary doesn’t mean evil, it means reactionary. Hamas is a reaction against communism and against Israel colonialism. It stands in direct contradiction to still reactionary but at least secular Arab nationalism.
But I guess I’m too much of a heckin racist to accept that communism is a western secular distortion with no place in the MENA region
>>2409249It’s impossible for a liberal
to be fair, hamas military capacity was far greater than anyone expected. people tend to forget this now but prior to oct7 hamas was not at all considered a viable fighting force, the thinking was that their armed wing was hounded and constantly atrophied by infiltration. instead they actually held ground for a few days after capturing a large portion of southern israel and scaring the hell out of the zionists.
yes in hindsight it is easy to look and say all that has actually been accomplished is the total destruction of gaza and genocide of its people. but it was not a sure thing that hezbollah would lose in the north, that syria would fall, that iran would be so stingy and careful (tho ok maybe they shouldve expected this), or even that the US government would be so gleefully complicit in the total destruction. on the last point, just consider that the US under even the fucking bush admins at the very least tried to give the impression of pursuing a 2 state solution and staying israels hand from this level of destruction & slaughter, even as they were consistently and happily maintaining the overall viability of the zionist project. it was not a sure thing that the US, let alone the entire world, would sit by and support israel to the hilt through this level of unhinged retaliation.
there is a real success in a sense that israel and the zionist project has never in its history been more isolated and loathed than it is right now. is that worth the complete destruction of gaza and genocide of palestinians? i certainly dont think so. if anything its just a horrible irony that the cultural high regard held for jews in the west came out of being subject to genocide, and its likely to end with the so-called "jewish state" committing genocide (obviously the nakba and general process of settlement & on-and-off massacres and displacement in general also constitutes genocide, but the general circumstances, israeli complacency about soft power, and advancements in communication tech have lined up for it to be more blatant and transparent this time)
but tl;dr is that they took an opportunity and were much more militarily capable than anybody could have expected, and it was not unreasonable to expect hezbollah performing much better than they did, and arab populations in the region mobilizing more than they did. whether it was ultimately a bad idea strategically im not one to say, depends partly on the info they were working with.
>>2409276>Hamas isn’t a synonym for Palestinians no matter how much the IDFAre they not palestinian? Is the genocide in gaza not their genocide as well?
>reactionary doesn’t mean evil, it means reactionary. Hamas is a reaction against communism and against Israel colonialismIn palestine there exists a state that enforces a rigid apartheid regime built on historic genocidal racial supremacy. There are two military forces, the palestinians are represented militarily by hamas and their allies which includes the PFLP, israelis are represented by the idf and their main ally, maybe the most reactionary country in history, the US. In this conflict who do you think stands against the construction of communism? The people fighting to liberate the people in the territory from apartheid or the people fighting to exterminate people on the basis of their ethnicity?
Reactionary is not some sort of essential or innate characteristic based on people's ideology. It is conditional to the context of the class struggle as it plays out in the real world. In the real world Hamas is obviously the progressive force in contrast to Israel, who dominates and controls the entire territory defacto
>But I guess I’m too much of a heckin racistYou are
>>2409311>Are they not palestinian?Are the Bloods synonymous for black people because they’re a black gang also? Why is your brain so dysfunctional?
>In palestine there exists a state that enforces a rigid apartheid regime built on historic genocidal racial supremacyIt also has the massive upperhand
Before I continue, I genuinely do not give a fuck if you think it’s unfair for Israelis to have socialism and they all need to die; you, factually, will not save the Palestinian people unless the Israeli regime self-deletes or is destroyed by proletarian revolution
But I guess the outcome you want is a memorial in like 30 years for all the victims, and another 78 of resistance, if they’re not all destroyed by then
I actually do think moralist MLoids like you are perfect allies to Zionists, since, for all the empty bluster about “resistance” once you consider MLoids can actually do nothing to “materially support” Palestine and Hamas in anyway, literally all you’re doing is arguing against proletarian internationalism in favor of emotional investment in a fantasy about Hamas winning
Do MLs at least actively try to get Amerika to end its funding of Israel? That would be something.
>In palestine there exists a state that enforces a rigid apartheid regime built on historic genocidal racial supremacy. There are two military forces, the palestinians are represented militarily by hamas and their allies which includes the PFLP, israelis are represented by the idf and their main ally, maybe the most reactionary country in history, the US. In this conflict who do you think stands against the construction of communism?Communism is against the interests of both a national project for Palestine and the national project of Israel; hence why both sides are perfectly fine with sacrificing and killing proletarians, and neither side promotes proletarian internationalism, communism, or a material understanding of the situation rather than an essentialist and moral one
>The people fighting to liberate the people in the territory from apartheid or the people fighting to exterminate people on the basis of their ethnicity?Only revolutionary wars are fought to achieve liberation.
Can I ask you why it makes you so much more angry to consider communist revolution than the construction of a Palestinian bourgeois national state?
Why does it make you so angry to imagine the Palestinian proletariat being saved from extermination and liberated, rather than Hamas magically defeating its nuclear armed opponent and then ruling a bourgeois regime in Israel-Palestine? After all, is Hamas destroying the Israeli government any more realistic than a proletarian movement doing that?
Why is the one outcome you oppose even more than successful genocide a 21st Century bolshevik revolution?
>Reactionary is not some sort of essential or innate characteristic based on people's ideologyMovements with reactionary ideologies are simply reflecting their own class composition and the imperialist interests backing them.
>It is conditional to the context of the class struggle as it plays out in the real world. In the real world Hamas is obviously the progressive force in contrast to Israel, who dominates and controls the entire territory defactoSimply being less powerful doesn’t make one a “progressive force”. You say it is conditional to the class struggle as it plays out in the real world. This is muddle headed word salad. The “condition” you are noticing is the domination of the movement and Hamas by bourgeois interests, as is the case for all national movements, most of which MLs tend to support anyway.
>>2408930>This. Also, they didn't expect the Gaza envelope to collapse that completely, and were planning on just abducting/ransoming a couple soldiersNot sure about that. Nobody going into battle is certain how it's going to go. There's almost always a lot of uncertainty. But they massed a lot of guys in a major operation, and surely would've studied the border outposts in depth, movement of troops, etc. and looked at their own forces, and figured they had an opening to do a lot of damage. Then they prayed.
>>2408877>My question is simple, what did Hamas expect to happen after October 7th? I think the rational part of the plan was to derail Israel-Arab normalization. But Western-minded people don't understand that these are religious people, and they are true believers who believe in their faith and their honor. People will call you Orientalist for saying this, but this has consequences. Religion permeates this part of the world and it's not just a LARP. That Israel is going to be destroyed in their lifetimes is considered a matter of faith.
When you're a true believer, it's your duty to take the initiative, to wake up and act in this world to help generate a divine awakening in the world above. It's YOLO-ing it a bit but the idea is that something great will emerge beyond your control that will lead you to your goal. It's not an exclusively Muslim thing, there are Americans who are like this too (maybe more common in the South with very religious people). It also exists in Jewish Kabbalistic teachings. If a person is on a boat facing a tsunami, even if you're only armed with a bucket, you have the duty to start filling that bucket and tossing the water overboard in the belief that those actions will contribute to your salvation.
So if this war results in a situation where international pressure forces Israel to come to heel, then Sinwar will go down in history as victorious. Like you see France recognizing a Palestinian state. Now, that doesn't matter as much as American pressure, and now Trump is in office and is thick as thieves with Netanyahu.
>>2409109>MLoids genuinely need to take steps not to offend Hamas dickriders on the interwebz bc they have a completely moralistic, essentializing noble savage view of indigenous people that compels them to shill for reactionary movementsHave you considered just basic human-to-human contact and diplomacy here? I think the whole thing is a disaster and there are some serious flaws in the strategy, but I don't disrespect these people. I was talking to a Palestinian guy from Hebron before this started (I'm not talking about the internet but irl) and he was 100% convinced that Israel was going to be destroyed in his lifetime (as a matter of faith, this was evident), and was also saying that the different factions were uniting. Little did I know what was about to happen. I wasn't going to argue with him, instead I told him that I thought Palestinians are a brave people who have a fighting spirit. He seemed somewhat surprised that I said that, but he seemed to take a liking to me. These people have an honor culture and respect matters a great deal.
>>2409390>Have you considered just basic human-to-human contact and diplomacy here? I think the whole thing is a disaster and there are some serious flaws in the strategy, but I don't disrespect these people. I was talking to a Palestinian guy from Hebron before this started (I'm not talking about the internet but irl) and he was 100% convinced that Israel was going to be destroyed in his lifetime (as a matter of faith, this was evident), and was also saying that the different factions were uniting. Little did I know what was about to happen. I wasn't going to argue with him, instead I told him that I thought Palestinians are a brave people who have a fighting spirit. He seemed somewhat surprised that I said that, but he seemed to take a liking to me. These people have an honor culture and respect matters a great deal.Bro, why are contemporary communists such fucking pussies? Like, real, genuine question. Marx and Engels had no shame shitting on fellow socialists, all forms of liberals, nationalists, etc; but modern MLs require teary eyed respect for every manner of theocrat, nationalist, liberal, etc so long as they find themselves militarily engaged with the West and its puppets, why? Far beyond abandoning a ruthless criticism of everything that exists, MLs have abandoned meaningful criticism of almost ANYTHING that exists!
Like, here you are conflating some dude from Hebron, with Hamas, and Hamas with all militant Palestinian nationalist orgs in general, and those orgs with the Palestinian proletariat as such, effectively arguing they are spiritually communist, why? Why does what that men felt mattered, if, odds are, his life has been destroyed by the genocidal war triggered by the “great act of resistance” he idealistically believed would destroy Israel? Can you tell me how he feels now that Gaza has been obliterated, the world watched a genocide occur for an entire year, and the only actual outcome was that Iranian influence in the interest was weakened? China didn’t even cut off its fucking trade with Israel. The world already knew America and Israel are vile and that the G7 are effectively enemies of humanity; through two years of genocide there hasn’t even been new revelations about the evils of Zionism, and people were protesting AGAINST Israel as early as 10/8 because public opinion shifted to the side of Palestinians YEARS ago. Literally none of the adventurism MLs find so inspiring and fascinating made a difference other than triggering (or accelerating) the genocide in 2023 instead of 2024 or 25 or 26 or any other year. Why, after everything you people witness, do you still refuse to accept the necessity of proletarian revolution?
Is there any limit to the amount of proles that get butchered that finally turns an ML into an internationalist?
>>2409037Doesnt matter because all zionist assets will be palestinian soon enough
>>2409081>A one off cardWrong. Oct 7 was not singular gamble, but brilliant opening move transitioning to higher phase of people's war
>counterbuff is open genocide seems not a great choice (but alas the other side was covert genocide in the last stage of the normalisation The zionist genocide was always open. Attacking zionists is the only good choice.
>so who am I to judge)You are judging now, you cowardly zionist. Your faux neutrality is zionist
>Each soon to be opened embassy in the garden is weighted in a meat cube each.Zionist embassy will be burned. Your defeatism is zionist
>>2409418>>2409381>>2409276>>2409221You are not a proletarian internationalist if you oppose national liberation struggles. You claim to support proletarian revolution, but decry all action that actually makes that possible. You accuse real communists of being moralists but only see class as a moral category. Marxism-Leninism *is* communism, and to oppose it is anticommunist.
Put an iron in your mouth and pull the trigger, bourgeois lickspittle.
>>2409418>modern MLs require teary eyed respect It's not about being teary eyed, it's about acting like an adult in the world around people who believe in different things than you do.
>Far beyond abandoning a ruthless criticism of everything that exists, MLs have abandoned meaningful criticism of almost ANYTHING that exists! I can be ruthlessly critical of Palestinian militant strategy if you want me to be. I also didn't say I was an ML.
>effectively arguing they are spiritually communist, why? I didn't say that. I didn't really get "communist" vibes from that guy. More theocratic, right-wing vibes albeit coupled within a Palestinian resistance framework. It was almost like talking to that Baal Swizz guy (look him up).
>Why does what that men felt mattered, if, odds are, his life has been destroyed by the genocidal war triggered by the “great act of resistance” he idealistically believed would destroy Israel? I think it matters a great deal if it shapes how people act especially the leadership of these organizations. I'm not saying it will lead to any particular outcome.
>Can you tell me how he feels now that Gaza has been obliterated, the world watched a genocide occur for an entire year, and the only actual outcome was that Iranian influence in the interest was weakened? China didn’t even cut off its fucking trade with Israel.No, I can't tell you how he feels now. Maybe he'd be thrilled when seeing the latest batch of IDF combat engineers get blown up. I don't know. But he wasn't some Axis of Resistance or pro-China guy. In fact, there was another guy there (American) who was into Assad (he was one of these ML-oid Axis of Resistance types) and the Palestinian guy didn't seem to react well to that. He didn't say anything and just stared at him, but I have my intuitions. I know this is anecdotal, but I think if you do more research you'll find that there wasn't a lot of love for Assad among Palestinians. Iran… I dunno. There are people online who may have illusions, but Palestinians have been used and betrayed by so many people (including the Assads), that I don't think there are many illusions about that. They may have illusions about other things.
>Why, after everything you people witness, do you still refuse to accept the necessity of proletarian revolution? Is there any limit to the amount of proles that get butchered that finally turns an ML into an internationalist?There's no substitute for an independent Palestinian movement. Ultimately, they must decide what will best further their struggle and how to organize, and I'm not Palestinian. They might get it wrong and they lose, but I'm not going to get angry and disrespect a Palestinian guy on the street because he has a different viewpoint and isn't a communist.
>>2409470>You aren’t a proletarian internationalist if you don’t support the political aspirations of the bourgeoisieStopped reading there 😂
>>2409455Just call it Jew nonsense and call it a day mate, at this point MLs are a few months from writing off Marx as a Jew and promoting Stalin and Hitler as the true fathers of communism anyway
>You accuse real communists of being moralists but only see class as a moral category. Nah I just don’t get off to proles being led to the slaughter by the bourgeoisie in the name of “what’s right”
>>2409480>It's not about being teary eyed, it's about acting like an adult in the world around people who believe in different things than you do.So Marx and Engels were less mature than random internet leftoids in 2025 desperate for acceptance from Christians and other theists? Why do you people even use the movement of a pair you would have despised for their horrible and problematic rejection of nationalism, racialism, tradition, and the like?
>I can be ruthlessly critical of Palestinian militant strategy if you want me to be. I also didn't say I was an ML.Based on not being an ML
I think the problem is, like MLs, you’re more or less pretending like class does not actually exist in the context of Israel and Palestine, so you treat Israelis and Palestinians like automatons puppeted by their ruling classes and basically refuse any class analysis of those societies and their conflict; the issue of colonialism is expertly used to argue that class doesn’t exist in either countries so basically commies face the wall for being racists, race traitors, etc
>I didn't say that. I didn't really get "communist" vibes from that guy. More theocratic, right-wing vibes albeit coupled within a Palestinian resistance framework. It was almost like talking to that Baal Swizz guy (look him up). So his willingness to sacrifice tens of thousands to own Israel for a single day is a line leftoids ourselves should adopt while we continue to reject communism as racist, zionist, and white?
>No, I can't tell you how he feels now. Maybe he'd be thrilled when seeing the latest batch of IDF combat engineers get blown up. I don't know. But he wasn't some Axis of Resistance or pro-China guy. In fact, there was another guy there (American) who was into Assad (he was one of these ML-oid Axis of Resistance types) and the Palestinian guy didn't seem to react well to that. He didn't say anything and just stared at him, but I have my intuitions. I know this is anecdotal, but I think if you do more research you'll find that there wasn't a lot of love for Assad among Palestinians. Iran… I dunno. There are people online who may have illusions, but Palestinians have been used and betrayed by so many people (including the Assads), that I don't think there are many illusions about that. They may have illusions about other things.At least you and I are on the same page about the much beloved (by MLs) Arab nationalist projects
>There's no substitute for an independent Palestinian movement. Ultimately, they must decide what will best further their struggle and how to organize, and I'm not Palestinian. They might get it wrong and they lose, but I'm not going to get angry and disrespect a Palestinian guy on the street because he has a different viewpoint and isn't a communist.Refusing to accept someone’s outlook as correct isn’t disrespectful. Would you also start cursing out negroes (am black myself) if he did? Why should there be an independent Palestinian movement exactly, rather than an international communist one?
This is what I mean
Modern leftoids will call you CIA, a jew, a Nazi, a zionist, a fucking reptilian, purely for promoting a Marxist, internationalist line, that’s it
Why the fuck do you people want Hitler to win so fucking bad? As in, why is your general tendency aggressively AGAINST proletarian, communist internationalism? Why is your emphasis always TOWARDS completely fractious national oriented movements that logically will only ever exist to, at best, achieve power and protect their own national context at the expense of all else rather than an actually COMMUNIST MOVEMENT subordinated to an international COMMUNIST party??????
Why the fuck can’t you people scrub the Americanism out of your brains? The MLoid and general leftoid desire to divide the world into smaller and smaller ethnic hamlets is quite literally ideologically American lmao
Also not all of this is directed at you specifically
>>2409381>Are the Bloods synonymous for black people because they’re a black gang also?It's not about them being synonymous you disingenuous retard. Hamas is composed of palestinians. In the context of the palestinian genocide in gaza, they fight against that, they are literally on the front line against Israeli genocidal ethnosupremacy.
If we were talking 20, even 10 years ago I could maybe agree we could say they were a reactionary force, but even then the alternative at the time was what turned into the collaborationist regime in the West Bank, which, while less overtly violent, solidifies occupation even more.
>Before I continue, I genuinely do not give a fuck if you think it’s unfair for Israelis to have socialism and they all need to die; you, factually, will not save the Palestinian people unless the Israeli regime self-deletes or is destroyed by proletarian revolution It's not a matter of whether it's "unfair" or not, Israelis cannot have socialism because they are a colonial, genocidal apartheid state that serves as one of the main bulwarks for the american western imperialist hegemony.
>But I guess the outcome you want is a memorial in like 30 years for all the victims, and another 78 of resistance, if they’re not all destroyed by then>I actually do think moralist MLoids like you are perfect allies to Zionists, since, for all the empty bluster about “resistance” once you consider MLoids can actually do nothing to “materially support” Palestine and Hamas in anyway, literally all you’re doing is arguing against proletarian internationalism in favor of emotional investment in a fantasy about Hamas winning Fuck off with your sanctimonious bullshit, talk about empty blustering lmfao
>Communism is against the interests of both a national project for Palestine and the national project of Israel; hence why both sides are perfectly fine with sacrificing and killing proletarians, and neither side promotes proletarian internationalism, communism, or a material understanding of the situation rather than an essentialist and moral oneLiterally muh both sides argument
It's not about what either side promotes dumbass, it's where they objectively stand in the imperialist world order, in the actual class struggle. Israel's existence as an apartheid state and a bulwark for american imperialism is infinitely more damaging to the construction of communism than literally the main organization that actually materially resists and opposes that state. How you cannot see that and sit here and posture about how much better you are than your oh so despised "MLs" is beyond me
>Only revolutionary wars are fought to achieve liberation.Empty sloganeering
>Can I ask you why it makes you so much more angry to consider communist revolution than the construction of a Palestinian bourgeois national state?The construction of a Palestinian state, "bourgeois" or not, is progressive compared to the current situation.
>Why does it make you so angry to imagine the Palestinian proletariat being saved from extermination and liberated, rather than Hamas magically defeating its nuclear armed opponent and then ruling a bourgeois regime in Israel-Palestine?Your imagination means dick compared to the real world
>After all, is Hamas destroying the Israeli government any more realistic than a proletarian movement doing that? They are doing infinitely more against the entity than any of us. Get some perspective and show some solidarity asshole
>Movements with reactionary ideologies are simply reflecting their own class composition and the imperialist interests backing themThe "ideology" of hamas is not a static object divorced from the context of global imperialism. To say it's inherently reactionary because it is theological or "bourgeois" in basis seems reductionist and idealist in my opinion. Hamas is a diverse and decentralized organization, political and ideological thinking within its members is not static and neither is it's class character. Obviously it's not a socialist or even a secular organization, but that doesn't make it inherently reactionary depending on the context. I would prefer the PFLP were more popular and successful too, but we don't live in that world, Israel made sure of that.
>Simply being less powerful doesn’t make one a “progressive force”.It's not about them being less powerful, it's about their objective antagonistic position towards israel
>You say it is conditional to the class struggle as it plays out in the real world. This is muddle headed word salad. The “condition” you are noticing is the domination of the movement and Hamas by bourgeois interests, as is the case for all national movements, most of which MLs tend to support anyway.You play with the cards your dealt. the "condition" is it's positionality in opposition to Israel and its genocide. You are basically saying support nobody, which comes down to support israel
<inb4 I support le real palestinian proletarian international blah blah blahLike it or not the palestinians (this includes palestinian proles btw) are militarily represented in their struggle against genocide by hamas. If you don't consider military opposition to genocide to be progressive idk what to tell you other than to kill yourself ziorat
>>2409495>It's not about them being synonymous you disingenuous retard. Hamas is composed of palestinians.And the Bloods are composed of black people. Would you have preferred Nation of Islam as an alternative group of bourgeois anti-communists we should waste our lives shilling for? Don’t you think Hamas already gets the support it needs from other armed theists? Will westoid leftoids licking its cock make the substantial difference for them?
>In the context of the palestinian genocide in gaza, they fight against that, they are literally on the front line against Israeli genocidal ethnosupremacy.Mate, they literally started the current hostilities only to lose
That’s what I mean when I say, MLs are actually happy that the genocide is occurring. This is evident from the fact that MLs will never not shout from the rooftops their support for Hamas beginning the current hostilities. MLs will happily kill 10,000 Palestinians in exchange for a single IDF soldier, it’s genuinely pretty sick. This is evident since, if you ask an ML what Hamas has achieved for Palestinians, they will admit essentially nothing but they did kill a few IDF soldiers or something. This is a state of affairs MLs are happy with. If every single Palestinian were executed, but Israel suffered thousands of casualties, MLs would support such an outcome. It’s beyond deranged and a way of thinking that stems from Hollywood movies and moralism; since Hollywood constantly promotes suicidal but moral last stands.
Why does the idea of proletarian revolution anger you? Why would you be a communist if proletarian internationalism is a jewish scheme in your mind? You realize nobody is stopping you from being a liberal, a fascist, an islamist, or anything else? Nobody is telling you not to be a nationalist. Well, I am, but more don’t be a communist and then give moral reasons for why Hitler talking points (about nations rather than jews lol) are correct.
<WELL WHAT WILL YOUR FILTHY PROLETARIAN INTERNATIONALISM DO ABOUT GENOCIDE ANON!?!?!?It would be the end of the states guilty of perpetuating it
>If we were talking 20, even 10 years ago I could maybe agree we could say they were a reactionary force, but even then the alternative at the time was what turned into the collaborationist regime in the West Bank, which, while less overtly violent, solidifies occupation even more. That only means that the proletariat has been completely at the mercy of bourgeois interests. You are a coward if this means you therefore support a bourgeois faction that obviously cannot and will not liberate a damned soul.
>It's not a matter of whether it's "unfair" or not, Israelis cannot have socialism because they are a colonial, genocidal apartheid state that serves as one of the main bulwarks for the american western imperialist hegemony.No shit a bourgeois state cannot create communism
You understand the proletariat in every single country is already enlisted in suppressing their own class both domestically and internationally?
Capitalists aren’t the ones staffing their own armies and police forces. Proletariat is not a moral designation. Communism is not a moral movement. When I say anti-communist, nationalist forces cannot see a way out of the horrors, that isn’t a moral assessment. Hamas’s best chance was imperial sponsorship by Iran, with Iran defeated their national movement likely has no realistic prospects for victory in terms of creating a national state.
>Fuck off with your sanctimonious bullshit, talk about empty blustering lmfaoHow will Hamas achieve victory considering you have written off proletarian internationalism?
>Literally muh both sides argumentIt's not about what either side promotes dumbass, it's where they objectively stand in the imperialist world order, in the actual class struggle.
Do you even know where they objectively stand? Why does you keep using vaguely communist phrasing to defend an obvious moral and sentimental position? Was Hamas not willingly sacrificing the population of Palestine when they attacked Israel on 10/7? They clearly didn’t have a strategy beyond the initial attack and basically attempting a guerrilla strategy, they had no plan for if Israel just straight up exterminated the population of Gaza, assuming they didn’t accept such an outcome as worth it.
>Israel's existence as an apartheid state and a bulwark for american imperialism is infinitely more damaging to the construction of communism than literally the main organization that actually materially resists and opposes that stateMLs that can’t help but shill for the Nation, State, God, and the People do even more to prevent communism than Israel does but who’s counting, eh?
How can communism stand any chance if the vast majority of communists’ main purpose in life seems to be obfuscating the existence and model of international class struggle?
At any rate, again, how is Hamas meaningfully close to seeing the collapse of the Israeli state, presumably before they kill every last Palestinian?
>How you cannot see that and sit here and posture about how much better you are than your oh so despised "MLs" is beyond meThe difference between you and I is that I don’t think my own orientation toward a foreign conflict I can’t prevent or feelings of sympathy or lack thereof for foreign reactoids meaningfully affects anything but my own coherent or incoherent understanding of Marxism
>The construction of a Palestinian state, "bourgeois" or not, is progressive compared to the current situation.Progressive doesn’t mean good or bad lmao
>Your imagination means dick compared to the real world This is exactly why the most desperate ML fantasies of Hamas destroying the Israeli government and expelling the settlers seemingly haven’t weakened Israel by an ounce. Two years after the most effective action Hamas has ever taken, Gaza is in ruins, the colonization of the West Bank has accelerated significantly, Iran’s influence has been substantially weakened, the UN is more frayed than ever, and Israelis are protesting over the government failing to do the genocide correctly.
Was the victory that most proles don’t like Israel and the international community (the actual one, not the G7) sees Israel as bloodthirsty ghouls? They already did before this decade even began.
>They are doing infinitely more against the entity than any of us. Get some perspective and show some solidarity assholeReally? More? I didn’t personally engage in any actions that triggered a genocidal invasion. Sometimes doing nothing is actually more substantial than adventurism, but I guess MLs get too much entertainment from watching proles die to actually reject adventurism anymore.
>The "ideology" of hamas is not a static object divorced from the context of global imperialism. To say it's inherently reactionary because it is theological or "bourgeois" in basis seems reductionist and idealist in my opinion.“Bourgeois” isn’t an ideology. A movement’s class character reflects its ideology. Hamas isn’t a nationalist theocratic movement because the heckin material conditions prevented this obviously proletarian revolutionary org from having a revolutionary line, they have an outlook that reflects the class character of their bourgeois national movement. Or do you think proletarian mutual aid orgs and not links with Iran and business owning Palestinian expats are where they get arms, funds, and equipment from?
>Hamas is a diverse and decentralized organization, political and ideological thinking within its members is not static and neither is it's class character. All bourgeois movements are “diverse” because the bourgeoisie are not the ones taking up arms and risking death. This means nothing at all.
>Obviously not socialist or secular<Doesn’t mean it’s reactionary Lmao
Glad you revealed you think reactionary means “bad guy” just as you think progressive means “good guy”
>It's not about them being less powerful, it's about their objective antagonistic position towards israelAll capitalist nations and movements stand in a position of objective antagonism against each other based on their competitive interests. Capitalist states are all enemies of each other by default, if you do not understand this you likely have an essentialist and idealist understanding of nationalities and states. I would expect a nationalist movement to be in conflict with the government preventing their national sovereignty. Does Hamas lead a way out of the status quo of bourgeois society, or does it just set up another imperially sponsored micro-state to enter the world market?
>You play with the cards your dealt. the "condition" is it's positionality in opposition to Israel and its genocide. You are basically saying support nobody, which comes down to support israel What if I’m actually critiquing MLs and leftoids and don’t give half a fuck what Hamas should or shouldn’t do? Clearly they thought they SHOULD sacrifice 50-200,000 Palestinians, I don’t much care for the strategic considerations of the bourgeoisie for this reason.
>Like it or not the palestinians (this includes palestinian proles btw) are militarily represented in their struggle against genocide by hamas. If you don't consider military opposition to genocide to be progressive idk what to tell you other than to kill yourself ziorat<<Palestinians are militarily represented by a reactionary militia that cannot even win the war it took up, now stfu and be proud of the brave last stand of the Palestinians, you dirty fucking k!ķ3 >>2409543>And the Bloods are composed of black people. Would you have preferred Nation of Islam as an alternative group of bourgeois anti-communists we should waste our lives shilling for? Don’t you think Hamas already gets the support it needs from other armed theists? Will westoid leftoids licking its cock make the substantial difference for them?Are the bloods a revolutionary resistance movement engaged in a military struggle against the genocide of black people in america?
No?
Then stfu with this dumbass comparison
>Mate, they literally started the current hostilities only to loseDude, how much more of a ziorat can you be? The hostilities in palestine have been ongoing for 75 years you fucking retard
>That’s what I mean when I say, MLs are actually happy that the genocide is occurring. This is evident from the fact that MLs will never not shout from the rooftops their support for Hamas beginning the current hostilities. MLs will happily kill 10,000 Palestinians in exchange for a single IDF soldier, it’s genuinely pretty sick. This is evident since, if you ask an ML what Hamas has achieved for Palestinians, they will admit essentially nothing but they did kill a few IDF soldiers or something. This is a state of affairs MLs are happy with. If every single Palestinian were executed, but Israel suffered thousands of casualties, MLs would support such an outcome. It’s beyond deranged and a way of thinking that stems from Hollywood movies and moralism; since Hollywood constantly promotes suicidal but moral last stands.
>Why does the idea of proletarian revolution anger you? Why would you be a communist if proletarian internationalism is a jewish scheme in your mind? You realize nobody is stopping you from being a liberal, a fascist, an islamist, or anything else? Nobody is telling you not to be a nationalist. Well, I am, but more don’t be a communist and then give moral reasons for why Hitler talking points (about nations rather than jews lol) are correct. Blah blah blah do you have anything to offer other than moralistic grandstanding?
>It would be the end of the states guilty of perpetuating itWhere? In your imagination? Because currently, in the real world outside of your utopian fantasies, the only factions materially resisting the genocidal israeli ethnostate are Hamas and its allies
>Do you even know where they objectively stand?Objectively they stand against genocidal israeli ethnosupremacism
>Why does you keep using vaguely communist phrasing to defend an obvious moral and sentimental position? Was Hamas not willingly sacrificing the population of Palestine when they attacked Israel on 10/7? They clearly didn’t have a strategy beyond the initial attack and basically attempting a guerrilla strategy, they had no plan for if Israel just straight up exterminated the population of Gaza, assuming they didn’t accept such an outcome as worth it.Why are you faulting them for Israel's genocide? "they should have known israel would monstrously slaughter them in retaliation, going so far as to bomb or actually gun down their own hostage taken citizens in genocidal bloodlust, their strategy was le bad" mister arm chair military strategist over here, give me a fucking break you pretentious pseud
>MLs that can’t help but shill for the Nation, State, God, and the People do even more to prevent communism than Israel does but who’s counting, eh? You might actually have a learning disability, im not sure, I feel kinda bad for calling you a retard now
>At any rate, again, how is Hamas meaningfully close to seeing the collapse of the Israeli state, presumably before they kill every last Palestinian?They are doing more than anybody else you idealist
>The difference between you and I is that I don’t think my own orientation toward a foreign conflict I can’t prevent or feelings of sympathy or lack thereof for foreign reactoids meaningfully affects anything but my own coherent or incoherent understanding of MarxismAre you actually retarded? Why are you making up imaginary arguments for yourself to win lmao?
>Progressive doesn’t mean good or bad lmaoYeah I know you disingenuous retard, we've been going over it
>This is exactly why the most desperate ML fantasies of Hamas destroying the Israeli government and expelling the settlers seemingly haven’t weakened Israel by an ounce. Two years after the most effective action Hamas has ever taken, Gaza is in ruins, the colonization of the West Bank has accelerated significantly, Iran’s influence has been substantially weakened, the UN is more frayed than ever, and Israelis are protesting over the government failing to do the genocide correctly.
>Was the victory that most proles don’t like Israel and the international community (the actual one, not the G7) sees Israel as bloodthirsty ghouls? They already did before this decade even began.Yeah the situation has been incredibly bleak for decades, at it's worst point yet currently, this is not because of hamas you disgusting israel apologist freak
>Really? More? I didn’t personally engage in any actions that triggered a genocidal invasion. Sometimes doing nothing is actually more substantial than adventurism, but I guess MLs get too much entertainment from watching proles die to actually reject adventurism anymore. You really love blaming palestinian resistance for israeli retaliation don't you? Just like the israelis themselves
>“Bourgeois” isn’t an ideology. Im obviously talking about the class character of the organization
>A movement’s class character reflects its ideology. Hamas isn’t a nationalist theocratic movement because the heckin material conditions prevented this obviously proletarian revolutionary org from having a revolutionary line, they have an outlook that reflects the class character of their bourgeois national movement. Or do you think proletarian mutual aid orgs and not links with Iran and business owning Palestinian expats are where they get arms, funds, and equipment from?Your outlook is based on ideological misgivings first and the objective struggle second. The primary contradiction in palestine is the colonial apartheid system, nothing can possibly be achieved there in terms of socialism while this is in place. In this it is inherently reactionary, it stands in direct opposition to the abolition of the exploitation of man by man. Hamas, for all its faults is the only one left standing in actual opposition to this. Therefore, in the struggle in palestine they count as progressive as they represent a far more progressive force than anybody else in terms of actually being able to resist against israel
>Glad you revealed you think reactionary means “bad guy” just as you think progressive means “good guy”Yeah alright man, the position that reaction is dependent on the conditions of the class struggle in the material world can be reduced to me thinking it just means "good" or "bad". You are such a pretentious disingenuous faggot man I swear
>All capitalist nations and movements stand in a position of objective antagonism against each other based on their competitive interests. Capitalist states are all enemies of each other by default, if you do not understand this you likely have an essentialist and idealist understanding of nationalities and states. I would expect a nationalist movement to be in conflict with the government preventing their national sovereignty. Does Hamas lead a way out of the status quo of bourgeois society, or does it just set up another imperially sponsored micro-state to enter the world market?Yeah I know, there is no differences between anything, it's just like any rando capitalist conflict, resistance to genocide is actually just as bad as said genocide. It's so trite this leftcom bullshit, Ive heard it all before. The palestinians are a stateless people, don't know if you heard? So, y'know, there is actually a massive difference between this and regular interstate conflicts
>What if I’m actually critiquing MLs and leftoids and don’t give half a fuck what Hamas should or shouldn’t do? Clearly they thought they SHOULD sacrifice 50-200,000 Palestinians, I don’t much care for the strategic considerations of the bourgeoisie for this reason.Critique from a ziorat equivocator like you is meaningless
><you dirty fucking k!ķ3There it is, isn't it? Jewish supremacist scum outted himself fully
>>2409494>So Marx and Engels were less mature than random internet leftoids in 2025 desperate for acceptance from Christians and other theists? I dunno. I'm thinking of Marx writing about the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom or something. He was supportive of it as a harbinger of revolutionary change but also disapproved of it because they were religious schizos who destroyed things and weren't capable of doing anything else. I think I understand why people support Hamas, but it doesn't necessarily follow that I uncritically support them.
>I think the problem is, like MLs, you’re more or less pretending like class does not actually exist in the context of Israel and PalestineI don't see how that follows.
>So his willingness to sacrifice tens of thousands to own Israel for a single day is a line leftoids ourselves should adopt while we continue to reject communism as racist, zionist, and white?I don't think people should adopt any "line." I think people should think for themselves.
>At least you and I are on the same page about the much beloved (by MLs) Arab nationalist projectsYeah probably.
>Refusing to accept someone’s outlook as correct isn’t disrespectful. Would you also start cursing out negroes (am black myself) if he did? No, of course not. That's ridiculous. For one, I didn't say I shared his religion or faith in Israel's destruction. Call me crazy, but I believe in a basic common-sense morality. Call it bourgeois. There's a difference between people having a different outlook on life and being disrespectful, calling people racial slurs, or that sort of thing. Also he's not going to listen to me if I tell him he's incorrect. Maybe I'm right, and he's wrong, but people are not really rational, and they also learn through their experiences, not yelling at them or "commanding" them.
>Why should there be an independent Palestinian movement exactly, rather than an international communist one?It's not a question of "should" really. Palestinians will generally be drawn to Palestinian organizations because they prefer Palestinian leadership. They're not going to follow my orders. But they might relate to me if I relate to their struggle or at least treat them with respect. As human beings. Palestinians in my experience mainly care if you rock with Palestine or not. If you don't, then they're not really going to like you very much, especially if you condescend to them.
>As in, why is your general tendency aggressively AGAINST proletarian, communist internationalism?Because that's really abstract and up in the clouds? That was an element of the Bolshevik revolution for intellectuals, but a lot of people were fighting for "peace, land, and bread." Concrete demands that your party could mobilize people to win. People fight for what they don't have.
>>2409506>Communism is science, not book club.Then treat it like a science and approach like a scientist or a detective would.
>>2409686>I dunno. I'm thinking of Marx writing about the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom or something. He was supportive of it as a harbinger of revolutionary change but also disapproved of it because they were religious schizos who destroyed things and weren't capable of doing anything else. I think I understand why people support Hamas, but it doesn't necessarily follow that I uncritically support them.Fair, but the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom was arguably one of the first truly anti-colonial uprisings in a world dominated by colonial capitalist states beset by semi-feudal and tribal societies; whereas the 21st Century is one wherein “national liberation”, now completely dependent on imperial sponsorship to achieve fruition, has long ceased being progressive; for the simple fact of feudalism’s historical abolition and the inability of imperialist powers to maintain actual colonies after the Second World War
>I don't see how that follows.Basically, the vast majority of leftists essentially believe the material interests of Palestinian and Israeli proletarians stand with their own ruling classes rather than their own class of proletarians; namely then, most leftists essentially believe Israel and Palestine should fight to the death until one side eradicates the other, and all things considered, Israeli would likely win
Ergo, most leftists would accept the dignity of Palestinians being exterminated in the name of a national project than even entertain the possibility of Palestinian and Israeli proles joining hands to destroy Israel, a government that uses its entire population as human shields
You can say that proletarian revolution is unrealistic, but Hamas collapsing the Israeli government and all Israelis fleeing to Europe and North America is also unrealistic and doesn’t even lead us out of the horrors; yet MLs will happily entertain the latter idea over the former. “No you don’t understand, the militias are already there to fight to the death so this is realistic actually!” It’s sickening to me, most leftoids are happy wifh the thought of every Palestinian dying solely because it’s easier to entertain the fantasy of a Palestinian army destroying the IDF than the indignity of ending warfare, genocide, and domination (since the shoe needs to be on the other foot first!)
>No, of course not. That's ridiculous. For one, I didn't say I shared his religion or faith in Israel's destruction. Call me crazy, but I believe in a basic common-sense morality. Call it bourgeois. There's a difference between people having a different outlook on life and being disrespectful, calling people racial slurs, or that sort of thing. Also he's not going to listen to me if I tell him he's incorrect. Maybe I'm right, and he's wrong, but people are not really rational, and they also learn through their experiences, not yelling at them or "commanding" them.You don’t believe in challenging people? We aren’t politicians, spinelessly nodding and agreeing with every word said by a poor person or person from a poor or oppressed country. You can challenge someone without being an asshole. Like asking questions to get them to question their own assumptions without making it obvious that’s what you’re doing.
>It's not a question of "should" really. Palestinians will generally be drawn to Palestinian organizations because they prefer Palestinian leadership.There are Palestinian proletarians; maybe the problem is that leftoids think people are nationalities first and class positions second?
>If you don't, then they're not really going to like you very much, especially if you condescend to them.But here’s the thing
I think shilling for or giving your “support” to Hamas because you think every Palestinian is on board with their project is both condescending and also generalizing to a dehumanizing degree
>Because that's really abstract and up in the clouds? That was an element of the Bolshevik revolution for intellectuals, but a lot of people were fighting for "peace, land, and bread." Concrete demands that your party could mobilize people to win. People fight for what they don't have.Is it up in the clouds, or is it just hard, and thus ignored by leftoids who, mostly, want to achieve reforms on the ground, selling out the working class, and doing nothing more? People here mention the 75 years of Israeli colonialism, but what about the context of 500 years of colonialism pursuing value around the world? The entire constellation of relationships constructed around this singular context that define the context, a context determined by Capital as a control system? Genuinely, what do leftoids really have other than kind words in this regard? No army, no strategy, not even fucking analysis, just kind words, prayers, and showing Palestinians how much we “respect” them by accepting Hamas as their sole representatives and taking pride in that they died “resisting”? Is there a proletariat? Is it a class whose existence is defined by universal conditions? Is it not an international class?
>>2409781>most leftists essentially believe Israel and Palestine should fight to the death until one side eradicates the other, and all things considered, Israeli would likely winProbably yeah.
>Ergo, most leftists would accept the dignity of Palestinians being exterminated in the name of a national project than even entertain the possibility of Palestinian and Israeli proles joining hands to destroy Israel, a government that uses its entire population as human shieldsThis is also my criticism of this strategy. I think you need to divide your enemy or at least try to do that, but a lot of pro-Palestinian stuff I've seen (at least online, which might not be a good way of looking at it) has been to basically rule that out. They have this theory of settler-colonialism and they want the Jews to GTFO. I do think that can describe what's going on in the West Bank. But Israel isn't like France in Algeria or Vietnam, or British colonists in Kenya. Israeli nationalism is very strong, and they have their own language (very important). Also the notion that they're Western settlers doesn't really work because most of the Jews there are Russian/Ukrainian and Middle Eastern. Like a basic sociological analysis of the Jews there would complicate this picture greatly. Among them are many who speak of their experiences as refugees (something they have in common with Palestinians) who arrived in Israel with nothing and lived in shacks, but you'll just hear something about how Mossad did false-flag bombings that drove them out of Iraq, Yemen (and a dozen other Arab countries… this starts to stretch credulity) and that the Hebrew language isn't real.
There are Jewish American religious fanatics though who move to the West Bank who are basically lumpen criminals who couldn't hack it in Brooklyn.
>You don’t believe in challenging people? We aren’t politicians, spinelessly nodding and agreeing with every word said by a poor person or person from a poor or oppressed country. You can challenge someone without being an asshole. Like asking questions to get them to question their own assumptions without making it obvious that’s what you’re doing.Yeah, sure, that's one approach. There's a time and place for it.
>There are Palestinian proletarians; maybe the problem is that leftoids think people are nationalities first and class positions second?Well, one way to think about nationalism is that it's always "false" in some sense. But you can't make it go away by trying to repress it. I don't really care about these leftoids though. The bigger problem for you is expecting Palestinians to give up their national aspirations. I don't think that's realistic. Like whatever you think about Hamas, that is very strong.
>I think shilling for or giving your “support” to Hamas because you think every Palestinian is on board with their project is both condescending and also generalizing to a dehumanizing degreeYou won't find me shilling for Hamas though. But I think the general principle of resistance to Israel and backing up other Palestinians is very strong among Palestinians. But put yourself in their shoes. And there are certain qualities among the Hamas fighters that makes their project appealing to people. One is precisely the failure of the PLO (you mentioned how "national liberation" movements became completely dependent on imperial sponsorship, well the PLO has set themselves up as Israeli collaborators). They're also disciplined. They brush their teeth and go to bed early.
>>2409952I think I understand why a Gazan kid would see the Israelis as monsters. His only experience is this big army showing up like the Empire in Star Wars or whatever and massacring his family members, destroying his city, and/or blowing his arm off. But I don't think it's really that analagous to the Rhodesians, because the Rhodesians saw
themselves as colonial settlers. The Israelis don't really feel that they
are that, and no matter how much you say they are will you convince them they're something they don't believe in about themselves. That shapes how they will react to certain strategies. It's much more existential for them and they will fight attempts to drive them out of there by force. Now, maybe, it might also come down to that, ultimately. But it's not a question of sympathy or not. It's trying to understand how they
think and how they
act without endorsing or excusing what they do.
>>2409969>I think I understand why a Gazan kid would see the Israelis as monsters.Is it really hard? I do too.
>His only experience is this big army showing up like the Empire in Star Wars or whatever and massacring his family members, destroying his city, and/or blowing his arm off. But I don't think it's really that analogous to the Rhodesians, because the Rhodesians saw themselves as colonial settlers. >The Israelis don't really feel that they are that, and no matter how much you say they are will you convince them they're something they don't believe in about themselves.Why is how they see themselves relevant? Yes, America is guilty of genocide, and I don't think it's right to say, "well the Americans saw themselves as entitled to all the lands of the Americas through 'Manifest Destiny'" but it is what it is. We can still call out the exterminationist settler-colonials philosophy without respect to the self-image of the perpetrators. We don't need to discuss that in respect to Nazis right? We don't have to go on about the kind gentle side of Hitler and the Reich's love of animals and children and etc. do we? It's irrelevant to the evil they commit to other humans.
>That shapes how they will react to certain strategies.Why is their reaction important? The important thing is the world's reaction. They are
.02% of the world population. Why is there opinion on anything important?
>>2409986>Why is how they see themselves relevant? I think I already explained that: how they see themselves will shape how they will react to attempts to drive them out of there by force. I don't understand why there's this seeming disinterest – among people who are dedicated to fighting Israel – in how their enemy thinks. How you can defeat your enemy if you don't understand them as something other than two-dimensional cartoon characters is not something I can easily answer. I can understand why a kid would think that, but at any rate, I don't think they're like the French where you can scare them back across the Mediterranean with some cafe bombings. I know you're not saying that, but these people are way more stubborn and ruthless than the French. The French wouldn't stick around and fight. But we know that.
>We can still call out the exterminationist settler-colonials philosophy without respect to the self-image of the perpetrators. It's not about making them feel good or "did you know the Israelis love their children too." I don't give a shit about that. Like this whole safe-space thing. That's very un-Israeli too. They're a very blunt and brutal people incapable of filtering anything (often to their detriment).
>Why is their reaction important? The important thing is the world's reaction. They are .02% of the world population. Why is there opinion on anything important?They're 50% of the population of Palestine. Give or take. But at the very least, I want to know how they will react because I want to be able to make reasonably accurate predictions of what they might do in reality, not just whatever I want to believe. People here called me a Zionist when the Al-Aqsa Flood operation started because, as impressive as it was, I was very pessimistic and believed that Israel was going to destroy Gaza. But people didn't want to hear that because they believe the Israelis wouldn't fight and just flee. It's not the case.
>>2410001>"we need to delve into the hearts of finance imperialist bourgeoisie to understand their deeper psychology" this is literally 99% of all Zionist Hollywood media propaganda. You are not radical at all, not even a radlib. You are the NPC programming meme with a brain full of liberal psyops, who somehow believes you can imagine revolutionary tactics by being a more astute indoor slave who is better at empathy with your white master
>>2410010>calling them a settler 3000000 times might be true but it does nothing,Socialists do nothing but somehow that's everyone else's fault for not doing enough homework to please the PMC redditor class 🙄
> the sooner people realize that the sooner we can do something better, something that might even workdegenerate Contrapoints nazis: "I'm a mature and rational adult in the room among children who foolishly reject my heroic debates and discussions about my slaves who I will never, ever deign to speak to"
>>2409969>I think I understand why a Gazan kid would see the Israelis as monsters.Yeah hmm real thinker that one, I guess you could maybe understand if you think about it really hard
>But I don't think it's really that analagous to the Rhodesians, because the Rhodesians saw themselves as colonial settlersSo did Zionists, at least in the beginning when settler colonialism wasnt so frowned upon. But times change and they adapt their rhetoric to the times. Some of the liberal ones might have deluded themselves into thinking they're not what they are, but they're gonna do what racist colonial settlers are gonna do. The idea that their self identification makes a meaningful difference between them and the colonial regime of Rhodesia reeks of idealism. You really think Rhodesians didn't fight tooth and nail to maintain their state? That it wasn't existential to them?
Now Israelis might be more fanatical or more deluded than the Rhodesians with their "the land was promised to us 3000 years ago and that means any rando Jew anywhere in the world is native to Palestine" thing, but it doesn't really make a material difference to combatting zionism imo
>>2410118>Their level of commitment matters What matters is Israel's position as an American imperial vassal. Their own subjective opinions don't really matter to the survivability of the state. As long as they are useful for American imperialism they will be supported by the most powerful military force in history. That is the deciding factor
>Many Israelis only speak Hebrew
>English is known as a foreign language by a significant proportion of the Israeli population as English is used widely in official logos and road signs alongside Hebrew and Arabic. It is estimated that over 85% of Israelis can speak English to some extent.[2] Russian is spoken by about 20% of the Israeli population, mainly due to the large immigrant population from the former Soviet Union. In addition, the 19th edition of Ethnologue lists 36 languages and dialects spoken through Israel.[3]
>According to a 2011 Government Social Survey of Israelis over 20 years of age, 49% report Hebrew as their native language, Arabic 18%, Russian 15%, Yiddish 2%, French 2%, English 2%, Spanish 1.6%, and 10% other languages (including Romanian, and Amharic, which were not offered as answers by the survey). >>2410121>Their own subjective opinions don't really matter to the survivability of the state.Yes they do, because if their resolve is strong they will need to be defeated more completely on the battlefield before they agree to a settlement that dissolves the Israeli state. Honestly just compare Germany in WW1 to WW2. In the first war they gave up without Germany itself being invaded or occupied. This experience had such an effect on them as a nation that their entire army and government had to be physically annihilated before they gave up in the second war. Its not idealism to suggest that ideas and psychology can have a significant impact on world events. Marxist materialism is dialectical, ideas and material factors influence each other, even though the latter predominates.
>>English is known as a foreign language by a significant proportion of the Israeli population As a second language. Most Germans speak English too but that doesn't mean they'd be willing to just pack up and move to Britain or have an easy time integrating there.
>>2410125It's just not the deciding factor how Israelis feel about it. If they didn't have the support of the US, they'd be gone in a few years no matter how much they fought tooth and nail for their ethnostate, its survivability would be untenable
In the end they are cowards man, they have no real resolve and can only do what they do because they have an overwhelming material advantage. Put any Israeli soldier one on one in a room with a resistance fighter and he's immediately shitting his pants and surrendering I guarantee it. All this bravado they have about Israel being the only place for them would evaporate immediately if they were actually feeling the heat and they'd fuck right off, probably mostly to America as that is their imperial motherland anyway
>As a second languageWell you said most Israelis speak only Hebrew didn't you? Doesn't matter if it's their first or second language, the point is they could easily integrate into any western nation they want to, they don't want to not because they only speak Hebrew, but because they want to colonize Palestine and build an ethnostate there instead
>>2410132>If they didn't have the support of the US, they'd be gone in a few years no matter how much they fought tooth and nail for their ethnostate, its survivability would be untenable Say that happens, and it happens somehow without any Israeli nukes going off. What then? You've got millions of Israelis who feel that they've just lost their country, they are convinced that they are the indigenous people of this land, that they are not safe anywhere else. How is this not a recipe for an endless insurgency that would mirror that of the Palestinians? How would this not compromise the viability of a Palestinian state?
>In the end they are cowards man, they have no real resolveI don't think that's true in the slightest. If it were they never would have been able to establish and maintain Israel in the first place when the odds were actually against them. It's wishful thinking to posit that they'll just give up when they haven't shown any indication of this.
>inb4 a lot of them left after October 7thI guarantee you that if they had been allowed huge numbers of Gazans would have run away too.
>Well you said most Israelis speak only Hebrew didn't you? Doesn't matter if it's their first or second language, the point is they could easily integrate into any western nation they want toI was mistaken about the first part, but again simply knowing English doesn't mean they can easily integrate into any Western country. There are still huge cultural differences. If millions of Germans suddenly appeared in England the mere fact that they speak English wouldn't prevent them from being seen as foreigners by the locals and themselves. That's not even getting into the millions of Israelis that have no European origins at all but are descended from MENA Jews.
>>2410136>Say that happens, and it happens somehow without any Israeli nukes going off. What then? You've got millions of Israelis who feel that they've just lost their country, they are convinced that they are the indigenous people of this land, that they are not safe anywhere else. How is this not a recipe for an endless insurgency that would mirror that of the Palestinians? How would this not compromise the viability of a Palestinian state?We're going off too far into abstract hypothetical. There's no point fantasizing about potentialities that are at least several decades away. The process of deziofication would take many many years and will obviously be a violent process because zionists will try resist any form of a Palestinian state being constructed, that is inescapable. But it's not really a question of israelis and their personal feelings about the matter.
>In the end they are cowards man, they have no real resolveI don't think that's true in the slightest. If it were they never would have been able to establish and maintain Israel in the first place when the odds were actually against them. It's wishful thinking to posit that they'll just give up when they haven't shown any indication of this.
Israelis are not some sort of monolith essential group that never changes. The original zios that founded the state through terrorism and genocide were a different breed than current israelis. But even then the idea that the cards were stacked against them is ridiculous, zionists paramilitaries were trained by the british, their equipment and violent capacity greatly exceeded that of their arab opponents. It's the arabs and specifically the Palestinians who were always on the backfoot
I say they are cowards because they are, they cannot fight Palestinians on an even ground and can only fight them through the insane material disparity they have imposed on them. You will never ever in a million years see an Israeli dog do something as brave and fearless as Palestinian resistance fighters do on the daily
>I guarantee you that if they had been allowed huge numbers of Gazans would have run away tooYeah because they're actually being genocided dog, Israelis started to run away when they were faced with a couple hundred deaths lol. Let alone if Palestinians actually started winning, you can't imagine. They know bro, they know what they're doing to those people and if they thought they could receive even a fraction of relatiation or inversion or revenge for what they've been subjecting them to, they will piss their pants immediately
>I was mistaken about the first part, but again simply knowing English doesn't mean they can easily integrate into any Western country. People who don't even speak English do it in the millions on the daily
>There are still huge cultural differencesHave you ever met an Israeli? They're just westerners bro, easiest assimilation ever
> If millions of Germans suddenly appeared in England the mere fact that they speak English wouldn't prevent them from being seen as foreigners by the locals and themselves. That's not even getting into the millions of Israelis that have no European origins at all but are descended from MENA JewsYou're overblowing the issue, millions of euroids live in each others countries, the entire west coast of france is inhabited by English people who don't speak french. These cultural differences are all non issues
>>2410117>The idea that their self identification makes a meaningful difference between them and the colonial regime of Rhodesia reeks of idealism … it doesn't really make a material difference to combatting zionism imoI want to push back on the vulgar materialism here that says an enemy's consciousness is irrelevant. It's like saying the enemy's morale is irrelevant. It shapes whether people are willing to recruit soldiers or sacrifice for something. Once ideas seize people, they become a material force. Nations which don't understand this always pay. An extreme example of this is Robert McNamara who reduced everything down to quantifiable (economic / technical) inputs into a computer. Like we dropped X tonnage of bombs and killed Y number of people = we're winning. It's not irrelevant but Vietnamese resolve and morale and self-identity were all very important factors which the "whiz kids" in the Pentagon didn't understand.
>You really think Rhodesians didn't fight tooth and nail to maintain their state? That it wasn't existential to them? The Rhodesians? Meh. Nah. You think the Rhodesians were that tough?
>>2410152>But even then the idea that the cards were stacked against them is ridiculous, zionists paramilitaries were trained by the british, their equipment and violent capacity greatly exceeded that of their arab opponents. That's true. The Israelis might have had more men in the field as well by absolute numbers even though they had a significantly smaller population because they recruited a large percentage of their population. That said, around 1% of the Jewish population died in the war, which is a lot.
>Have you ever met an Israeli? They're just westerners bro, easiest assimilation everI've met a few. One of them was an older guy who was more mysterious, another was a fat liberal gay guy who I thought was kind of pathetic because he was trying to convince the rest of the class (in college) that Israel wasn't the belligerent warmongering country that it is, and the one I spent the most amount of time with was a right-wing Russian who reminded me of this guy (he's playing a character but you get the idea), and very much the complete opposite of the previous guy. That ended up happening mostly by accident.
>>2410132>>2410136>languageMost of them understand and can speak English. I think the main thing is they speak to each other in Hebrew. They live their own lives in a mostly Hebrew-centric universe. They have a common culture and language.
>>2410648>I want to push back on the vulgar materialism here that says an enemy's consciousness is irrelevant.I'm not claiming that the enemy's consciousness is entirely irrelevant. It just doesn't weigh up to the overwhelming material support israel receives from the US. It doesn't really matter how convinced they are that it's their homeland when that is not the reason they are able to do what they do and get away with it. Without American aid they would have been crushed a while ago
>The Rhodesians? Meh. Nah. You think the Rhodesians were that tough?It's not their toughness that matters, it's that they have practically the same mentality and fought to preserve their respective ethnostates. It's just that Rhodesia was not that geopolitically important and thus nobody had a reason to prop it up
>I've met a few. One of them was an older guy who was more mysterious, another was a fat liberal gay guy who I thought was kind of pathetic because he was trying to convince the rest of the class (in college) that Israel wasn't the belligerent warmongering country that it is, and the one I spent the most amount of time with was a right-wing Russian who reminded me of this guy (he's playing a character but you get the idea), and very much the complete opposite of the previous guy. That ended up happening mostly by accident.Exactly, they fit right in
>Most of them understand and can speak English. I think the main thing is they speak to each other in Hebrew. They live their own lives in a mostly Hebrew-centric universe. They have a common culture and language.Sure, the point is that barely any of them speak just Hebrew and Hebrew alone tho
>>2410686>Without American aid they would have been crushed a while agoI don't think it's decisive. It's certainly important and a factor but there have been other cases of regimes which received a lot of American aid failing totally because their army didn't want to fight. This view that an external cause is the motive force in the movement of the "thing" derives from vulgar mechanical materialism rather than internally within Israeli society. This is not the ANA or South Vietnamese army.
>It's not their toughness that matters, it's that they have practically the same mentality and fought to preserve their respective ethnostates.I think the Israelis are tougher and smarter. The Israelis recruit most of the population into the military and socialize them in the army and bind them to this nationalist project. It's like some Robert Heinlein society. The Rhodesians were a bunch of bums by comparison.
>Exactly, they fit right in Well the fat gay guy would fit in around here. Can't argue with you there. I'd say the Russian guy was built a bit differently.
>Sure, the point is that barely any of them speak just Hebrew and Hebrew alone thoYeah. But my point is that Hebrew is their language. They have a language. A lot of people in the world are conversant in more than one language.
>>2410744>I don't think it's decisiveIm sorry but this is a bit crazy to me. The connection between Israel and the US is so so pervasive to the conflict. The billions of dollars that are spent on Israel every year, the weapons, the diplomatic stuff. The scale of it is insane, it's certainly a decisive factor, moreso than the psychology of the Israelis themselves in my opinion.
But you are right that america's involvement is not the motive force behind the zionist political project. They only really started showing interest in it post 67 anyway. It's moreso that since then the primary factor in enabling Israel to do what it wants to do, without repercussion, has been the US and that's without even going into all the other things that America has done in the region that benefit Israel. think about how different the situation would be if Sadam or Gaddafi were still around for instance.
>I think the Israelis are tougher and smarter. The Israelis recruit most of the population into the military and socialize them in the army and bind them to this nationalist project. It's like some Robert Heinlein society. The Rhodesians were a bunch of bums by comparison. Yeah the Rhodesians weren't much to gawk at sure, but had their political project been more beneficial or important to US imperialism, I would not consider it unlikely for it to have lasted quite a while longer
>Yeah. But my point is that Hebrew is their language. They have a language. A lot of people in the world are conversant in more than one language.Ehh it's a made up language, there's a reason only 50% of them speak it as their first language. It's not the same like other countries where the native language is spoken as a first language by pretty much over 95% of people
>>2410769>BTW, if you take what I'm saying as dooming or demoralizing, that's not my intention. Yeah im not taking it as such, we're just having a minor disagreement.
>I think they can be defeated, but they're a tough nut to crack by military means, although they were once driven out of Lebanon via guerrilla warfare. The IDF had a real problem with morale during that war, and also during the First Intifada, which was mostly a non-military uprising that emerged from the bottom-up in Palestinian society. Well I think their reaction to such events. Or even their reaction to oct 7th is indicative of a deep-seated fear and insecurity in their society. They only know how to respond to it with overwhelming force, because that's all they have really, force. But it's not real toughness, it's not bravery. It's easy to be "tough" in advanced armored tanks and fighter jets courtesy of daddy america, but it's something hollow, without that I really don't think they'd have much fighting spirit left other than the crazy lunatic ones.
>It'd be interesting to trace the origin and frequency of "IDF soldiers speaking out" type groups and when those began to occur. I'd take a guess but suspect it started becoming more frequent around then.From what I know it's mostly something that appeared after the second intifada with orgs like breaking the silence n shit
>>2411064This is what most palestinian activism and organizing in the west is about dumbfuck
>Muh Mlismobsessed
>>2411178 (me)
Man I even forgot to mention the iron dome, such a decisive advantage for israel to conduct its genocide and all the other shit they do. Purely sponsored by the US
>>2411178>Im sorry but this is a bit crazy to me. The connection between Israel and the US is so so pervasive to the conflict. The billions of dollars that are spent on Israel every year, the weapons, the diplomatic stuff. The scale of it is insane, it's certainly a decisive factor, moreso than the psychology of the Israelis themselves in my opinion. You're not wrong that it's insane, but America blowing a trillion dollars on a war and it being a total wash is not unprecedented.
>Ehh it's a made up language, there's a reason only 50% of them speak it as their first language. It's not the same like other countries where the native language is spoken as a first language by pretty much over 95% of peopleThere have been many immigrants from the Jewish diaspora who spoke other languages. But there's evidently an attraction to it among Jews who have emigrated to it. Like this is a country where the road signs are in several languages but one of them is a Jewish language, which is the main language of the country. The national holidays are Jewish holidays.
>Or even their reaction to oct 7th is indicative of a deep-seated fear and insecurity in their society. I absolutely agree with that.
>t's easy to be "tough" in advanced armored tanks and fighter jets courtesy of daddy america, but it's something hollow, without that I really don't think they'd have much fighting spirit left other than the crazy lunatic ones.Well the tanks are Israeli. They make a lot of weapons and made it a point to try (airplanes are more difficult) to manufacture at least one weapon in each category themselves. Like they have their own shoulder-fired missile. Things of that nature. And then they'd sell these weapons to all kinds of crazy governments around the world.
>>2411394>I think the biggest issue in the long term would be governing Israelis in a state where Jews and Palestinians have equal rights. I think a contradictory aspect of guerrilla war is that a very strong power can be defeated by ostensibly "weak" people. There's something about being strong, while fighting the weak, that one becomes weak during that process. Soldiers often want to prove themselves, but they can't do that against weak opponents, so over time there is a decline in military effectiveness. They get "rusty." And on the opposite side of the dialectic, the ostensibly weaker side can become strong by fighting a strong opponent.
I wonder if this is happening to the IDF now. From what I can tell, there's really not much fighting going on in Gaza. They rarely see Hamas except occasionally through drones, and then every few days an Israeli soldier is picked off or blown up. Hamas are doing very precise, targeted hit-and-run attacks. Meanwhile, the Israelis are just bulldozing everything in areas where they're operating, and starving the civilian population. Morally it's appalling, but there are also anecdotal reports from Israeli media that the soldiers are burned out. I was watching a report from one of their channels interviewing Israeli soldiers in the strip and they looked exhausted. Around the middle here. I don't think it was like that in the beginning. The country balled up into a fist.
>>2411064>"When you get genocided you shouldn't kill your oppressors or ur nationalist, especially when you are brown and hecking ayrab and they are white n uruopeon."brought to you by your local gusano, iraqileftcom
ALERT ALERT iraqileftcom has a major hitler penis withdrawal
>>2411948I'm starting to think nationality/background/imagination does not validate trash like that either.
Xi, liberate them with your Dongfeng missiles and Chengdu stealth superiority fighters
>>2409148Everyone with half a brain and some connection to reality will eventually be called a zigger, same with tankie
Lmao good
We can easily know our own
>>2409390>Israel was going to be destroyed in his lifetime It will, if he got 50 years.
There are serious concerns if even the US itself will make it more than a couple decades.
I don't think this system has too much gas in the tank but we will have to see obviously.
>>2409031I didn't know you were expected to justify resisting genocide (note here, tactical disagreement is not "justify yourself")
In terms of justice it is very very simple
All action against NATO is defensive in nature, righteous and justified.
Not gonna argue this point. Thank you for your attention.
>>2412025 (me)
Ok to be slightly more precise but using excessive words it's NATO + their fellow gangsters (allegedly neutral westoids, Japan, Israel ofc)
>>2410805Of course they knew something was gonna happen. This is not debatable, it's in official investigations. The question is to what extent they approved of it and deliberately held back.
Such and such number of civ casualties
is useful when your dead are worth hundreds of times (limit unknown) the "barbarians" in the eyes of the populace and w*stern allies.
>>2409746 is right. The point is a desperate attempt to try to do anything to improve the situation.
To be honest, the October 7 uprising played into Israel's plans far more than it did for Hamas. You could be a conspiracist and say that it was ordered by Israel, or you could say that Israel made the attacks a far bigger deal than what Hamas expected it to be.
Bibi needed that war to last longer in government, but that is not the structural reason. The structural reason is American decline and the way Israel is trying to prepare for the day free American money and guns won't come in anymore. Demolishing Palestine, Syria, Hezbollah was required to try to make the situation more stable as Israel will have to rely on its own economy, which is tiny as is appropriate for such a tiny country. In no way can it sustain that kind of military activity under capitalism. It may prove impossible to actually stabilize the situation, as Palestine supporters clearly want, but only real events can prove that. Communists and radical liberals might just be far more supportive of that struggle than the vast majority of Arabs.
>>2411064Israelis
chose to be killers of Palestinian children. As in, a huge chunk of Israel's population was born abroad and migrated there from countries that weren't even trying to attack them. The largest group is Soviet people who decided to go there in the 90s for economic reasons. They weren't even disproportionately poor. Most of these people support eastern european liberalism, which was the reason these economic reasons arose in the first place. A secondary motivation was also that they wanted to become western and those backward slavs clearly weren't going to make the cut, so they learned a dead language and adopted a made-up nationality to be trve westerners. Millions of people who were just as Jewish as these Israelis remained where they were since they weren't psychopaths who couldn't care less about the world as long as they get their money. They self-selected for being the most vile people.
>>2411965>Shine on you crazy diamondI'm rolling a boulder uphill.
>>2411962>It will, if he got 50 years … I don't think this system has too much gas in the tank but we will have to see obviously.Hey, I'm not ruling it out.
>>2412236>In no way can [Israel] sustain that kind of military activity under capitalism. It may prove impossible to actually stabilize the situation, as Palestine supporters clearly want, but only real events can prove that.I don't know the answer to this (and might also be where Marxism comes in useful) is to what extent does Israeli capitalism run on war in the first place, and to what extent that is sustainable or not. This is the paradox of it. Because I don't get the sense that Israel seeks stability at all, rather it prefers this constant level of instability, because for whatever reason they feel like they can manage it better. In the West Bank for example, the Israelis are constantly trying to provoke the Palestinians into lashing out. David Graeber wrote about this:
<And you realize: you’re going to have to live like this forever. There is no “political process.” It will never end. Barring some kind of divine intervention, you can expect to be facing exactly this sort of terror and absurdity for the rest of your natural life. But when someone does snap under the pressure, and, say, stabs a soldier at a checkpoint, or joins a cell to shoot at settlers, there’s no one specific act one can point to that seems to justify what seems like an act of disproportionate madness … What sort of Palestinians, then, are the occupation authorities trying to create? Clearly not docile and obedient ones. There would be no reason to engineer a life of continual hardship, terror, and humiliation—to ensure, for instance that practically every Palestinian mother and father has to worry if their 12-year-old son or daughter will come home safely from school, or is already lying shackled and blindfolded in a concrete cell—if one were trying to pacify a former enemy. The only answer that makes sense is that the Israel forces want the Palestinians to seethe; they want there to be resistance; but the also want to ensure that political resistance is completely ineffective. They want a population that is compliant on a day-to-day basis, but that periodically explodes, individually or collectively, in a unstrategic and uncoordinated fashion that can represented to the outside world as irrational demonic madness.
<And why would they wish to do this? Almost every Arab political analyst I talked to considered the answer self- evident. Israel’s economy has become largely dependent on the high-tech arms trade, and the supply of complex electronic “security” systems. Israel is today the world’s fourth largest arms exporter, after the US, Russia, and UK (it has recently pushed back France to #5). This is actually quite a feat for such a tiny country. But as everyone also hastens to add: Israeli arms and security systems have an enormous advantage over their rivals, one Israeli firms never fail to emphasize in their promotional literature. They are extensively field-tested. This new type of shell that was used to destroy tunnels in Gaza! This new type of random-distribution tear gas dispenser was successfully used against protestors in the Balata refugee camp. This new type of laser-detection device has repeatedly foiled attacks on settlers. Arab resistance has become a key economic resource for Israeli capital, and were it to completely quiet down, the export economy would take an immediate hit.
<If bullying is to be defined as, in its essence, a form of aggression designed to produce a reaction that can then be used as retroactive justification for the initial act of aggression itself, then the Israeli Occupation has taken bullying and turned it into a principle of governance. Everything is designed to provoke. The provocations are daily. They are ugly and humiliating. But they are also designed to fly just under the point of flagrant, undeniable aggression, where you can claim they were not even, precisely, an “attack,” but like the schoolyard bully who’s constantly subtly poking and jabbing and kicking his victim, hoping for some outraged burst of ineffective rage that can get the victim hauled before the principal.https://davidgraeber.org/articles/hostile-intelligence-reflections-from-a-visit-to-the-west-bank/ >>2410136>How is this not a recipe for an endless insurgency that would mirror that of the Palestinians? Well if Palestinians dont treat Israelis the way Israelis treat Palestinians.
>How would this not compromise the viability of a Palestinian state?I think there would be a stay behind network that would do terrorisms so you would have a situation like Ukraine, but the new state(s) would also have history to learn from.
>>2414567Not even american. Here's the problem: BDS has existed for many decades now, so you are not saying anything new here, yes?
These things take time. The US, Israel and all the rest (also-ran, like evropa, who will get cannibalized bigly) are on a pretty steep downward trajectory.
We are gonna win in the end. Question is how long it will take and how much blood will be spilled.
>>2414572>Not even american. Here's the problem: BDS has existed for many decades now, so you are not saying anything new here, yes?What does the novelty of my argument have to do with anything?
>These things take time. The US, Israel and all the rest (also-ran, like evropa, who will get cannibalized bigly) are on a pretty steep downward trajectory.Ok, still not a counter-argument to anything I said. I would like to provide clarity, I don't think there is a strong basis for Zionism in the US, especially if people who are supposedly anti-Zionist would stop trying to always be "apologists" to put it most bluntly for Zionists. "I'm getting in the mind of Zionist!" To do what? Appease?
>>2414573Just vibes
>you all>hasbaraAnd what counter-argument? I generally don't argue.
Ok, I have no horse in this race really. But "why understand the enemy?" also seems naive on its face. I dunno, like Sun Tzu said, you need to understand yourself and the enemy, then everything will be breezy.
>>2414622Did I say otherwise?
I am all for BDS and would go further but it's not up to me.
As far as I am concerned, push them all into the sea. It's just not realistic, it's not political in a meaningful sense.
I don't know where this charge even comes from.
Now I allegedly sympathize with not Hamas (who I do sympathize with) but the exterminist regime known as Israel?
Normally, I am accused of being a Putin sympathizer and those dastardly Chinese.
>>2414629Opinions and political feasibility can change anon. Push your position as much as is feasible right now and think in decades not years. Your "not politically realistic" seems defeatist to me
Did not mean to accuse you of being a zio simp
>>2414629>Now I allegedly sympathize with not Hamas (who I do sympathize with) but the exterminist regime known as Israel?Why are you acting like we've all been having a long conversation with you where we all have names and whatever? I only know this post by you and the one before. Who accused you off sympathizing with Hamas? Why did you say that?
>As far as I am concerned, push them all into the sea. It's just not realistic, it's not political in a meaningful sense.No one said that either.
Anyways let's get back to the point besides whatever your personal bullshit on an anonymous messageboard. You guys are literally apologists. You aren't trying to "know your enemy." You don't try to give an accurate appraisal of Israelis, you like to give them a devil's advocate reading, because you always like to think you will be able to appeal to the Zionists humanity. That's all well and good, I wish they would see the light of day and stop being evil too, but I will not bend over backwards to spare their feelings because "you're really in the mind of the Zionist" and therefore we shouldn't kind them genocidal because of your insight from "inside the mind of a Zionist" that tells you they won't like that.
Anyways before you make another defensive ass post that doesn't respond to a single thing I said while trying to gish gallop all over the place. Tell me what has your internalization of Zionism and defense of them ITT done for you to help you combat Zionism?
>>2414780>why you acting like blabla>you guysetc. etc.
Yeah, yeah I am everything you hate. But again, I have not come to argue. I am beyond you. I have already said what I wanted to say. Now it is on you to parse it.
Run along, bubbala
>>2414795Yes, you can notice
words
I do think there is a strong projection coming off you.
Won't go into too much detail.
It's no good to give medical advice to strangers on the internet, after all
Nonetheless, sorry, look into lithium.
>>2408877According to Hamas themselves the civilian killings were a mistake.
It's one of those inconvenient truths that makes the 'decolonisation is not a metaphor, kill civilians' crowd look like idiots because they inadvertently paint Hamas to be more bloodthirsty than they actually are
>>2414646Ahhh
So Hamas copers in chat still telling themselves they’re winning because the world says the genocide is very not good while the genocide continues to happen eh?
Maybe Hamas will finally achieve victory when the last Palestinian in Gaza is murdered and the Western leftists lead their biggest protest yet (so America gives Israel a trillion dollars in response)
Unique IPs: 75