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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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Not reporting is bourgeois


File: 1754990682553.jpeg (287.63 KB, 1440x993, 2558.jpeg)

 

I'm going to write a bit about the trend known broadly as left communism. It seems to me that left communism has now basically become this newest trend in opportunism. Back in the day, there were barely any left communists - there still aren’t many - but every now and then you see one. I’ve seen lots of opportunists retreat from their previous positions (whether they were anarchists, Trotskyists, or what-have-you) and switch to left communism. I suppose it is appealing to some people.

It’s basically an anti-Leninist trend and against any historical form of socialism - any kind that has ever existed. So what exactly is left communism? It is an anti-Marxist, revisionist trend that capitulates under the pressure of anti-communist propaganda. It’s not the only trend that does this, but that is its most characteristic feature.

Left communism likes to present itself as theoretically genuine Marxism. People who aren’t well-read theoretically or lack a firm grasp of Marxism’s core principles seem to fall for it. In reality, though, it’s just revisionism and a vulgar distortion of Marxist ideas - especially Marx’s message and the essence of Marxism. In particular, left communism is the most extreme defeatist trend in revisionism and opportunism. It sees literally all socialist revolutions and socialist countries as “not real socialism.” This includes all Marxist-Leninist countries, other socialist experiments, and even anarchism.

Left communism has never had major historical or theoretical relevance. It is entirely isolated from real political action and only appeals to petty-bourgeois-minded opportunists. Some people - and by this, I mean left communists - might find that insulting, but it happens to be the case on purely theoretical grounds. These seemingly negative traits are actually left communism’s strength. Why? Because left communism is on a crusade against reality. It crusades against any socialism that has ever existed or will exist. Since left communists themselves have never had (and never will have) political relevance, their ideas will never become reality.

Left communism relies on abstract theoretical arguments out of touch with reality - meaning none of its conclusions ever need to be proven. If left communism did become reality, it would implode. Left communists would attack it as “stalinoid.” Left communism doesn’t exist on its own terms; it only exists as a parasitical opposition to actual socialism. That’s the only role it has ever played, even historically - see, for a particular example, the Brest-Litovsk days.

You might ask: If left communism is so irrelevant, why talk about it? Precisely because it doesn’t exist as a movement in itself. It exists solely as opposition to actual socialism - a stance more parasitical than any other movement. Trotskyism may oppose Marxism-Leninism; anarchism may oppose state socialism. But at least they have independent substance. Left communism is nothing except opposition to existing socialism. Left communism and its variants constitute a revisionist trend characterized by capitulation to anti-communist propaganda and a total lack of real political activity. Its defining features are distrust of the masses, isolation, pessimism, and defeatism - demonstrating its thoroughly petty-bourgeois nature. It is the ideology of the petty-bourgeois opponent of really existing socialism

File: 1754992029664.png (97.84 KB, 1721x305, I don't need a program.png)

I am not fully convinced of the necessity of another one of these.
Indeed. I agree in total, completely.
I especially liked, but really it's all hilarious once you see the trick, when one of them insisted (or they all do, implicitly, as I asked quite a number of times now for anything concrete whatsoever that goes beyond sloganeering) they do not need a program whatsoever to be "correct".
It is not a political disagreement at this point. There is nothing political about it, it is pure anti-politics.
And as to "immanent critique" or "ruthless crit", all there is to say about that: You are no Marx, you are not even Adorno.

Exactly, tired of the ultras criticizing France although they plan the economy and have free healthcare

Well written and on point critique anon. Basically says all there is to say about these people. Though I agree with the other anon that it's perhaps not necessary

Something I found of note is that they basically cannot independently come to their own arguments or word things in their own way and when cornered will default to thought terminating cliches, regurgitated memes and dogmatic phraseology. Very cult like and absurd


File: 1754993403251.png (260.44 KB, 1789x714, imp decline.png)

>France is NK
>ignorance is strength
>NATO defends democracy
If only that was what was actually happening and you'd immanently critique your own dying, self-cannibalizing empire. Now, that is not what is happening and we all know that is not what is happening.
Anyway I wish every w*sterner a very nice death of empire.
I did not btw expect to get to recycle this quite so soon

I just don't like nationalists

>>2429295
You think nationalism just means having a country lol

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>>2429259
>It’s basically an anti-Leninist trend
This is not true, but that's really the the only issue I have here.
Leftcoms generally don't think these countries are socialist because they see them as lacking in required necessities (abolishing wage labour, commodity production, private property, etc.)
In particular, they dislike the fact that the socialist countries and movements failed to emancipate the proletariat, which is the point of communism. This is all well and good but leftcoms generally lack a systematic critique of why these countries failed in the first place.
Essentially, it's criticism without solutions.

>buzzwordbuzzwordbuzzword
The point of materialist analysis is that you are supposed to connect it to concrete world.

>>2429296
It's on the edge, yes

>>2429340
Exactly so why should anyone take anything you say seriously when you're basically just an anarchist

>>2429324
they do give systematic critiques, in fact they actually give plenty of them, this is not simply "criticism without solutions" what you are doing is simply representing them inaccurately, but the solutions that you might want are impractical when such solutions are based on relative factors in one location, and not some international conditions

>>2429378
I just know the consequences of nationalism and don't wanna repeat mistakes.

>>2429407
You don't know anything about the consequences because you think just having a country is already nationalism

>>2429324
> In particular, they dislike the fact that the socialist countries and movements failed to emancipate the proletariat, which is the point of communism. This is all well and good but leftcoms generally lack a systematic critique of why these countries failed in the first place.
Essentially, it's criticism without solutions
As long as the imperial core dominates geopolitics, I don't know how we can even transition into ideal communism. Honestly, it might take a combination of ML policies and a grassroots anti-consumerist and anti-materialistic mindset in order to rid the world of capitalism once and for all. If we can convince the people that life isn't all about status and shiny possessions, maybe we can weaken the imperial core from the inside.

>>2429408
Does Tibet need to be a country to have socialism?

>>2429511
There is no socialism without nationalism.

>>2429511
is that supposed to be an argument?

We can't avoid the issue that Leninism of the 20th century needs some serious scrutiny for though. You cannot simultaneously hold that it was experimental being the first but also that it had no issues to resolve.

>>2429634
It has already undergone scrutiny and Marxism Leninism has adapted accordingly, see China

China is probably the only communist force in the world right now. It is a country ruled by a truly communist party after all.

>>2429638
We'll check back on China in a decade or two. Lots of things are invincible and flawless on the way up.

>>2429259
>I'm going to write a bit about the trend known broadly as left communism. It seems to me that left communism has now basically become this newest trend in opportunism. Back in the day, there were barely any left communists - there still aren’t many - but every now and then you see one. I’ve seen lots of opportunists retreat from their previous positions (whether they were anarchists, Trotskyists, or what-have-you) and switch to left communism. I suppose it is appealing to some people.

Firstly you fail to define who you are targeting at all. Are you refering to the Italian Left? Dutch-German Left? Latter movements inspired by Left Communism - the groups that grew out of '68, etc?
You use the term "broadly" but the fact is these groups work off of entirely different models, they are entirely seperate currents. A criticism of one Left current need not be applicable to another, yet I understand why for a detractor of Marxism it would be convinient to paint them all with a single brushstroke.
For the sake of avoiding excessive confusion I'll presume you primarily refer to the most significant Left current, that is the Italian current, since you could have easily made a thread criticising Council Communists specifically if that is who you intended to critique.

Secondly you the proceed to accuse the Left Communists of being former members of other non-ML currents, as if Left Communism is by any means a new trend, and as if people hop from one ideology to the next depending on the direction of the winds.
You present the case as if ML-ism is the sole or predominant Marxist authority, and everyone else on the left has interchangeable ideologies that exist only to prevent MLs from achieving success, only to detract from you. This is just a subtly phrased, passive-aggresive and entirely baseless insult.
This opening is nothing more than an attempt to pre-empt the less intellegent readers to subconsciously accept the position that all non-MLs are all splitters, detractors of some supposed real socialism which only the Staliniods supposedly uphold.

>It’s basically an anti-Leninist trend and against any historical form of socialism - any kind that has ever existed. So what exactly is left communism? It is an anti-Marxist, revisionist trend that capitulates under the pressure of anti-communist propaganda. It’s not the only trend that does this, but that is its most characteristic feature.


An anti-Leninist trend? Immediately, in the first line of real criticism you show you have not got the slightest clue as to what you refer to or as to what Left Communism is.

Left Communism is Leninist. The International Communist Party is Leninist. Bordiga was Leninist. To quote the man himself, he was "More Leninist than Lenin".
To call Left Communists anti-Leninsts proves you have not understood a single word of Left Commnunist theory, if you have read a single line of it.

To anyone reading this critically, not simply to nod and agree with the ML position without conscious thought - this is an immediate red flag that should show the rest of this post will be comedically full of falsehoods and lack of even the most rudementary understanding of the Left Communist position. It is akin to saying that the Nazis were anti-Hitler.
The fact that anyone, having read this, congratulated this critique shows the utter lack of thought so many on this site come with - "as long as I think someone agrees with me, I need not care if what they write nonsense or falsehoods" - please, stop acting like this! Think, damn it!

The OP claims the Communist Left opposes socialism. How so? where is the evidence? Of course, this is just another baseless insult from the ML.
Another baseless claim presented without evidence for mindless philosphical zombie Stalinists to lick up. This isn't a critique if you cannot defend your accusations, it is nothing but slander, but seemingly some people here are too dull witted to even consider requesting any evidence for your claims.
That presented without evidence can be rejected thusly. Indeed if your point is valid, why not present evidence?
The truth is in fact the opposite, that the MLs rejected Marxism as it was presented by Marx and Engels. The modern ML rejects socialism as Lenin attempted to implement it.
That sounds harsh to you? Well, unlike the OP there is clear evidence that what I say is true. The truth of this can be found in regards to two key tenets of Marxism which the MLs have thoroughly rejected, spat on, and burnt to the ground.

Firstly, in regards to the notion of commodity production and wage labour, or in more broad terms the Capitalist system of economic production.
The very opening lines to Capital, the beginning paragraphs are an explenation of the capitalist mode of production. In addition to Capital, Anti-Duhring also explains capitalist production.
I suggest you read both books, since clearly you have grasped little of the theory presented in either.
What happened with the NEP, and with Stalin's scrapping of the plans to end commodity production and wage labour? The end of the hope of the implementation of a socialist economy - Stalin ensured that the USSR would be a capitalist state with a capitalist model of production.
The USSR and other so-called socialist states operate what is definitionally a capitalist economy, as according to Capital, Wage Labour and Capital, etc.

Secondly, in regards to Internationalism. Marx was a firm internationalist. He spoke of this in his speech at the inaugural address of the First International. He wrote of internationalism in the Manifesto. This isn't just Trotskyism, this is the Marxist position, which Trotsky also correctly held to, as do all Left Communists.
The invention of SIOC is therefore against Marx, against communist theory, against communist practice. It is a modernisation and falsification of Marx, a smearing of shit over Marxist theory in order to justy Stalin's personal policy choices.

To reject the socialist mode of economic production and to reject internationalism is no less than to reject Marxism and socialism.
Therefore any state that holds to a capitalistic mode of production and wage labour, without intent to abolish these things, and which holds to SIOC can be said to be anti-Marxist and anti-socialist.
Therefore the only possible conclusion to reach is that the USSR abandoned socialism after the first 4 years of it's existence, and that states such as China and Vietnam are also capitalist states.
What the Left Communist does is to call out and reject the capitalist state that claims to be Marxist. The socialism you claim we oppose was never socialism at all, it was capitalist production, capitalist wage labour with no plans or intent to transition to a socialist economy.
You rape the notion of socialism every time you present the deceased corpse of your capitalist states and proclaim it to be what Marx and Lenin aspired to establish.
And indeed, the fact that the USSR died a death, and the ongoing economic direction of other MList states, proves the Left Communist right all the moreso. You vision not only abandons Marxism, the scarecrow it builds in its stead fails again and again.

Having understood the above, the fact you call us the ones who are revisionists and anti-Marxist is proven a sick inversion of the facts. An inversion you had no evidence for. Your ideology revised Marx until you achieved both capitalism and abject failure.

>Left communism likes to present itself as theoretically genuine Marxism. People who aren’t well-read theoretically or lack a firm grasp of Marxism’s core principles seem to fall for it. In reality, though, it’s just revisionism and a vulgar distortion of Marxist ideas - especially Marx’s message and the essence of Marxism. In particular, left communism is the most extreme defeatist trend in revisionism and opportunism. It sees literally all socialist revolutions and socialist countries as “not real socialism.” This includes all Marxist-Leninist countries, other socialist experiments, and even anarchism.


Again this opens up with more baseless ad-hominen attacks, clearly a specialist of the Stalinist since he lacks the support of evidence to present for his accusations.
In this case it is particularly stupid since if there is one thing Left Communists are noted for, it is reading theory.

You begin by repeating your earlier point, that somehow Left Communists are revisionists, I have just addressed this inversion of the truth, in which you desecrate Marxism by claiming the revisionist ideas of support for commodity production, wage labour and SIOC is actually real Marxism.

The second part of this paragraph claims that Left Communists are theoretically incorrect on the basis that they don't hand you a sticker or a trophy calling all adventurist and capitalist projects Real Socialism(TM).
Sorry, but the criteria for achieving socialism isn't based on your emotions or what would make you feel good. It isn't waving a flag that happens to be red. It is adhering to socialist theory. Indeed there have been attempts at socialism, but no, your eternal commodity production and capitalist markets are still not socialism, by definition.
Playing along with this game of delusions presented by MLs and agreeing anything that calls itself socialist is so without examining their policies doesn't help the cause of the communist movement. It waters down the notion of what communism is about until it can be anything at all, which exactly what the OP and those of his position want.

And here we get to the very crux of the problem with Marxist-Leninists. to a great many them today socialism is not about theory inasmuch but about the aesthetic and emotional attatchment to certain progressive or anti-establishment causes. So long as they emotionally support a cause it then transforms into and becomes just and real socialism. And they get very abusive when you point this out this incredibly infantile outlook.
Indeed, when any bourgeois force against the current thing is clasifiable as Real Socialism(TM) and deserves (un)critical support, it's a wonder they don't consider ISIS to be socialists. Theory is irrelevant after all, just oppose the people we oppose and you're a socialist, because MLs are so revisionist that anything goes, even a fully capitalist state can be called socialist!

>Left communism has never had major historical or theoretical relevance. It is entirely isolated from real political action and only appeals to petty-bourgeois-minded opportunists. Some people - and by this, I mean left communists - might find that insulting, but it happens to be the case on purely theoretical grounds. These seemingly negative traits are actually left communism’s strength. Why? Because left communism is on a crusade against reality. It crusades against any socialism that has ever existed or will exist. Since left communists themselves have never had (and never will have) political relevance, their ideas will never become reality.


Again this entirely false, the notion that Left Communist traditions are irrelevant, despite how much their theory is discussed, despite the fact you made this thread about them? You wouldn't need to make this point if there was any truth to it. Indeed there has never been a Left Communist state. Indeed many ideologies have not been put into practice. That is not a measure of relevence. Is Anarchism also irrelevant? Is Trotskyism?
You yourself admitted ours is a current growing, growing rapidly. There is good reason for that.

We then on your next point see another classical ML failing - the mixing up of the concepts of popularity and truth.
If something is popular it must be true, if it is unpopular it must be false. Ergo, if Left Communism is irrelevant it must be false. - This is clearly a totally infantile fallacy, the degree to which something is true has no correlation with how popular the idea is.
For many centuries mankind believed the Sun orbited the Earth. That did not make it so. And likewise, if a particular theoretical current is unpopular, that doesn't mean its claims are any more or less valid. The merit is on whether they are theoretically sound.
ML-ism, as a revisionist doctrine that supports a capitalistic economy and SIOC has been proven in reality to be unsuccessful, even though Left Communists correctly pointed out how far it had deviated from Marxism and socialism and that it was doomed to failured many decades earlier.

Your next point - this idea that we "crusade against reality" is a metaphor that we aren't given any explenation to, and is just a baseless insult so again can be dismissed.
From your post we can only learn that Stalinoids love throwing around random pointless insults it seems, which in my humble opinion is NOT a good substitute to theory.
You then repeat the point declaring Left Communists oppose existing socialism, to which I can only so many times repeat this Real Socialism(TM) doesn't exist. For the 100th time, if you have a capitalist economic system you are definitionally anti-socialist and anti-Marxist. We are opposed to capitalists pretending they are socialists and revising Marxism into supporting capitalist economics. That is the correct position to hold.

>Left communism relies on abstract theoretical arguments out of touch with reality - meaning none of its conclusions ever need to be proven. If left communism did become reality, it would implode. Left communists would attack it as “stalinoid.” Left communism doesn’t exist on its own terms; it only exists as a parasitical opposition to actual socialism. That’s the only role it has ever played, even historically - see, for a particular example, the Brest-Litovsk days.


So the criticism here is that Left Communists understand and use theory. Which is apparently at odds with Marxism-Leninism. Here we both agree. The difference is that the conclusion I reach is that based on this, Left Communism is the more logical and coherent ideological approach.
To you apparently, theory is a disease, an abstraction to be disregarded. Which really explains a lot. - Recall how I stated that ML-ism is based on emotional desire to (un)critically support all revolutions and so-called progressivism regardless of whether such revolutions are entirely bourgeois, because to the Stalinoid all that matters is aesthetics and emotion, since they butchered Marxism into the inverse of itself? Exactly. Thanks for proving me right.

The next point is yet another ad-hominem attack, calling Left Communism parasitic. The fact that half this Stalinoid's points are just insults really should tell you a lot about the lack of theoretical support their position holds in the current era.

>You might ask: If left communism is so irrelevant, why talk about it? Precisely because it doesn’t exist as a movement in itself. It exists solely as opposition to actual socialism - a stance more parasitical than any other movement. Trotskyism may oppose Marxism-Leninism; anarchism may oppose state socialism. But at least they have independent substance. Left communism is nothing except opposition to existing socialism. Left communism and its variants constitute a revisionist trend characterized by capitulation to anti-communist propaganda and a total lack of real political activity. Its defining features are distrust of the masses, isolation, pessimism, and defeatism - demonstrating its thoroughly petty-bourgeois nature. It is the ideology of the petty-bourgeois opponent of really existing socialism


Left Communism is the current of the international proletariat. We adhere to Marx and to Lenin. It is not our fault if others deviate from the cause, falsify, modernise, reject Marx and embrace capitalism dressed in a red flag.
The real movement can never be destroyed because it is based in the immortal science of dialectical materialism, and regardless of how much you attempt to torture and twist the soul of communism, no matter how much damage you did to the cause with your projects of Soviet capitalism, in time the cause will recover.
A return to the correct theoretical framework was the only possibility after the disaster Stalinism put the real movement through. You have fooled the majority of self identifying socialists into believing wage labour and capitalism and anti-internationalism is all in fact a form of socialism. Theory be damned it seems.
But Marx's works are available to all today, and so it is only logical that in time the theory he put out would grow again.

If you care at all for achieving communism, then stand out of the way.
It's time to stop the infighting, the endless name calling, the defense of why such and such capitalist concept needed to be implemented under a ML state yet again and again, how billionaires are really communist, etc, admit you were wrong, and return to understanding what a socialist economy entails for a start.
Please start with reading basic theory. Not more Reddit, no more sloptubers. Read theory. You will thank me for it one day.

>>2429744
>Firstly you fail to define who you are targeting at all
Stopped reading there, he's targetting you dumbass.

>>2429744
Holy effortpost and an actual leftcommunist

>>2429746
Thank you for proving my point

>>2429748
A whole ass paragraph dedicated to asking which specific strain of leftcom OPs talking about, as if we don't all know exactly what retards we're talking about here. Then you go on this pointless tirade masqueraded as critique, that everyone here's heard before and had already dismissed. You're the one proving OPs point with your pedantic long winded tirade filled to the brim with irrelevant disingenuous nonsense that every leftcom repeats ad nauseam.

You have no point, your movement represents nothing but anti communism. "More Leninist than Lenin", he fucking hated your infantile ass, what a joke

>>2429786
>he fucking hated your infantile ass, what a joke
Again the ML proves he doesn't know anything about basic theory
Lenin's critique of Left Communism was aimed at Pannekoek and the Dutch-German Council Communists

>>2429798
Lenin's critique in infantile disorder was multi faceted and broadly applicable to all leftcom retards you disingenuous fuck. He had a strong distain specifically for your inflexibility, purist, dogmatist, unpractical nonsense, which is exactly what you and all other bordigacucks still rep to this day

>>2429810
If wanting to abolish capitalism makes me a dogmatic puritan then so be it

File: 1755023433895.jpg (42.31 KB, 681x450, images(22).jpg)

one thing you need to distinguish is that youre referring to the dogmatic, Bordiga-thumping reddit r/LeftCom "left-communists." there are also the "communizer" crowd (endnotes, phil a neel, etc) that is broadly speaking also "left-communist" but are not as dogmatic, not as hostile to drawing widely from historical socialist experience (whereas the people youre describing outright reject it), and most importantly whatever else you think of them they do actually have a presence in organizing and do present new analysis according to existing circumstances. even if you hate them they at least have an actual relevant presence compared to the ICP crowd

>>2429798
And he was blessedly unaware of Bordigga's existence. From this we can see, going early has its upsides.
Interaction with so-called leftcoms is definitely one of those things that make you wish for a nuclear winter. Like, it's not one of the main things but it's a thing.

WE WILL ALL GO TOGETHER WHEN WE GO
HEY
EVERYBODY NOW

>>2429815
I accept your surrender faggot. Didn't need to read shit from your dumbass post for it either

>>2429744
>Firstly you fail to define who you are targeting at all.
You. Your tendency. You again show your detachment from reality when you think our critics of leftcoms are against historic leftcoms and not currently existing ones - the one thinking themselves more Catholic than the pope. None of those tendencies you listed are in any way concrete political options today. Today's left-coms are ecclectic mishmashes of any kind of ultra-critical anti-"stalinist" tendency that exists only on the world web, and nowhere else. Trotskyites can group around the IMT/RCI, anarchists have their squats and orgs, leftcoms have - nothing. Everything written is about currently existing and self-declared leftcoms i.e. (You)
>Left Communism is Leninist. The International Communist Party is Leninist. Bordiga was Leninist. To quote the man himself, he was "More Leninist than Lenin".
>To call Left Communists anti-Leninsts proves you have not understood a single word of Left Commnunist theory, if you have read a single line of it.
You can declare yourself to be more Leninist than Lenin - and yet it means nothing. Leninism is a dirty Jewish idea, you cannot be a 'theoretically pure' Leninist as all leftcoms try to be. That's a contradictio in adjecto.
>The OP claims the Communist Left opposes socialism. How so? where is the evidence?
You capitulate to every anti-communist slander and legitimize anti-communist positions. You are not criticizing from a positive position i.e. to further organization and theory. You criticize to destroy and to never have to get your hands dirty with real life, practical organization and theory. You want historical opposition to socialism? I gave you an example - the Brest-Litovsk days, when the leftcoms wanted the war to continue despite the soviet state being in no position to continue revolutionary war and needed time to organize a red army. Is that not anti-communist practice?

Here's the kernel of every leftcom critique: wage labor, commodity production and internationalism.

Let's address the first two: you fall into the same swamp Engels warned the anti-authoritarians, but just in reverse. You don't think calling the same with different names changes the thing, but you do think that things called the same have the same social content behind them. Wage work is in regards to labor power being a commodity. The wage is the price of the labor power on the market. Now - in the USSR, there was no unemployment, there was no labor market and you could not put labor power as a commdity on the market. Money in the USSR also had a different social content than from the rest of capitalist economies being that the economy was planned and money was just a signifier of value. It was not a commodity as it is with capitalist economies - you cannot speculate with a soviet ruble as you can with and American dollar. How then is 'wage work' in soviet Russia 'the same' as in capitalist economies elsewhere - this is never explained. It is just declared to be so. This is dogma.

Next, commodity production. Again, the same thing. Production was organized according to a plan and the general anarchy of the market which dictates commodity production (and here we also include labor power being that it is generalized commodity production you assume existed in the USSR) did not exist. Neither labor power reproduces as commodites, neither were commodities produced at the will of individual producers which weaved into social production. That it was organized seemingly around commodity production is just a contradiction of a new society being birthed. Remnants of the old world coexist during the transitional period. This is one thing all leftcoms forget. You cannot get rid of all contradictions immediately, which is something leftcoms continously think could've happened in the pre-WW2 USSR. How this could've been done otherwise is never explained.

Internationalism is also a non-sequiter. Marx never had a worker's state that had to deal with the contradictions of realpolitiks. The internationalism Marx practiced and argued for is of a different nature than one you can practically organize when you have state power. Besides - exporting socialist revolution to Eastern Europe, Asia and elsewhere after the second war - is this not practical internationalism? Of course, you'll cry, that was not real socialism! To which I just spit in your face.

>Left Communism is the more logical and coherent ideological approach.

What is reasonable is what is true, what is true is what is reasonable. Leftcoms do not fulfil either side of this implication. You have to actually get your hands dirty, make your ideas this-worldly and Jewish and then you might have a leg to stand on.

>Left Communism is the current of the international proletariat.

There is no international proletariat. That would require having a sizeable part of the working class realizing itself as a class, organized around a vanguard party, having its transitional and revolutionary class programme. Here's your crusade against reality. You argue about the nature of a non-existant thing.

>Please start with reading basic theory.

You are just like ancaps screaming about basic economics. Sorry, but politics is different from your play pretend games of building socialism in one head.

>>2429591
National socialism

>>2429259
>newest stage
We've been opportunists for decades now keep up

The glowies' favorite leftist subversion ideology

>>2429839
>leftcoms have - nothing
Socialists want saintly martyrs, not actual working class people struggling with contradictions
https://redsails.org/western-marxism-and-christianity/
>Another factor that is very common in the western left is to treat suffering and extreme poverty as elements of superiority. It is very common in Western leftist culture to support martyrs and suffering. Everyone today likes Salvador Allende. Why? Salvador Allende is a victim, a martyr. He was assassinated in Pinochet’s coup d’ etat. When Hugo Chávez was alive, many sectors of the left turned their nose up at him. If he had been killed, for example, in the 2002 Coup attempt, he would be adored by the immense majority of the western left today, as a symbol of suffering and martyrdom. Since he continued exercising power as leader of a political process which, by necessity, had various contradictions, he was increasingly abandoned, as time passed — I don’t even have to mention what has happened to Maduro here. These same sectors which celebrate and support the idea of Allende because he defended democratic socialism do not see or do not want to see that Allende governed almost entirely through decrees.

>Together, the three elements that I just described create a kind of narcissistic orgasm of defeat and purity. The subject takes pride in not having any relationship with the entire historic concrete movement of the working class socialist and liberation revolutions. They take pride in not having any theoretical or political connection to the revolutions in China, Russia, Korea, Vietnam, Algeria, Mozambique and Angola. They are, instead, proud of the supposed purity that their theory is not contaminated by the hardship of exercising power, by the contradictions of historical processes. Being pure is what provokes this narcissistic orgasm. This purity is what makes them feel superior. It makes them feel that they have a privileged moral and ethical standpoint compared to the other leftists who, for example, recognize the Chinese or Cuban or Korean revolutions and, therefore, accept “authoritarianism” and accept an economy that is not based on the total realization of self-management. This kind of Marxism has no critical power. It can produce and does produce a lot of good analysis of reality but it is incapable of producing a movement that is strategic and revolutionary that aims to take political power. Therefore, the process of rebuilding a revolutionary Marxism in the West has to recognize these symbolic elements, which have become ingrained in Western Marxism, that were smuggled in as contraband from Christianity. These elements have to be submitted to radical criticism and surpassed.

>"not real socialism"
>on a crusade against reality. It crusades against any socialism that has ever existed or will exist
(Baudrillard laser eyes)
>nothing except opposition
Negative dialectics 💀

File: 1755060221838.jpg (99.97 KB, 401x401, disdain.jpg)

>Left communism, the newest stage of opportunism
>newest
leftcoms are a bane on the struggle but they are hardly new, everything else you are completely correct about OP

Still have no idea what a leftcom is but if they know you can skip lenin then I'm sure they'll be alright when they finish wearing ideas as hats.

might be the most retarded thread right now, all the falsifiers are exposing themselves for what they are, vultures to the corpse
>>2429744
trvthQverlQad
>>2430208
>They take pride in not having any theoretical or political connections to the revolutions in… Korea, Algeria, Mozambique and Angola
HAHAHAHA, and also you worship martyrs, you are emotionally connected to the irrational cause of stalinism, despite it being obliterated over and over, you sing the praises of stalinist martyrs, the horrors or krushchev, the glory days of True Socialism™ and all that, in reality you are the neo-mensheviks this article talks about, because you have no real attachment to communism, what you want is a martyred movement of capitalist domination painted red, and frankly you have many examples listed there for you to masturbate to, but let us actually oppose your nonsense without crying about how we are devils

>>2430234
>Le falsifiers
>Le emotional attachment to le Stalin
>More projection

Lmao retard

I don’t like them either but is it really accurate to call them opportunists? They don’t actively seek power ever. I thought opportunism would be more like social democrats, conservatives, and liberals jumping on things like welfare, wage increases, and pensions.

>>2430246
You're right anon, but how do you call someone who steers the movement away from its long term goals, but not even for short term gains like welfare or whatever, just for the love of the game?

>>2430246
because the thread is a bunch of insults without any coherent argument based in evidence being made, it's designed to appeal to your existing dislike
>>2430243
not even just to stalin, your various Gods too, you are nothing but a christian LARPing as a communist

>>2430246
Opportunism means doing what's opportune at the moment ignoring the historical duty the working classes have. And currently, it is very opportune politically to go on a crusade against ML

>>2430262
>And currently, it is very opportune politically to go on a crusade against ML
no it isn't lol, you are a bunch of failures who simply falsify in order to preserve their capitalist domination of the workers, and the "long-term duty of the working class" is communism, which MLs have yet to achieve and are yet to achieve


>>2430265
we will bury you

>>2429839
I find it telling that the leftcoms ignored this post. Mostly because it tears apart all their positions in a couple of sentences without the long winded pseudo intellectual tirades 😄

>>2430258
The only thing you have is being against MLism, it's quite sad really

>>2430269
That would require them to actually engage with their interlocutors instead of listing off their standard script of repeating phrases and thought terminators

>>2430208
Whatever happened to redsails anyway?

>>2430256
wrecker

And pseuds in every sense

>>2430382
That's a better term yeah

>>2430275
https://redsails.org/critica-sterile-negativa/
that is exactly what is happening, no exaggeration.
>The position of this “Left” is purely negative
That's really the red thread or defining feature of all "leftcom".

Just stumbled on this looking for something else

The "puerile-sterile" tendency.
You can say what you want, Gramsci had a way with words.

File: 1755086188828.png (2.84 MB, 1200x900, ClipboardImage.png)

We are against Leninism because we are with Lenin. We uphold Marxism (the doctrine of Lenin) and save its legacy from Leninists (liberals)

>Lenin must be read, and his greatness appreciated, in this light: not as the founder of «leninism», a word that Stalin invented to betray and counterfeit word by word the teachings of the maestro, but as a powerful scholar of marxism: it was his lifelong theoretical work to enable him to «make» the revolution, and not the opposite. Which higher lesson can be drawn from the October, than that the revolution can take place and be victorious only if led by a really marxist party, which in the decades before has devoted a great deal of energies to the strengthening and sharpening of its theoretical weapons?


>Lenin's «'Left-wing' communism» weighed the achievements of that experience, and laid the foundations of the revolutionary work to come, according to his style: before uniting, let us set out clearly our positions; those of the Left were in order, and Lenin acknowledged it. But those who were then branded as traitors are nowadays still pretending to be champions of the working class, and «'Left-wing' communism» was written against them. That's why in 1960 it had to be thrown in the face of the 81 swines of Moscow, and in 1984 we still vindicate it as a text of ours, today more topical than ever.

>>2430530
I'd sooner gnaw off my finger than engage in seriousness someone of such caliber
So all you get is meta commentary.
Is he saying first, they are not against the real movement Lenin initiated?
Also the text (infantile disorder) does not (somehow) disagree with them. This is an absurd position. The misinterpretation of Lenin will come first off all from his "high-priests", like them (and that is all they are or rather pretend at)
This is not the usual liberal: fight Stalin with Lenin and Lenin with Marx. This is "Lenin against Lenin", a travesty as they would say

The fundamental question of course was and will remain unanswered (in perpetuity). How are you part of any movement (good, bad, or otherwise) if you do not actually do anything?

>opportunism
Aren't they the opposite of opportunists? Iirc Lenin used the term to refer to people who sacrificed long term revolutionary goals in pursuit of short term political gains, e.g. the SPD voting for war credits or Kerensky opting to continue the war. Leftcoms are the opposite, they refuse all pragmatic compromise or tactical retreat in favour of dogmatic adherence to communist principles and ideals.

This thread is nothing but MLs patting each other on the back over how smart they are and throwing petty insults and accusations without evidence at anyone who is opposed to the capitalist commodity production Stalin and Mao couldn't get enough of

>we demand to be taken seriously
Sorry no, there is no objective condition (material, superstructural) that would evoke such a change in the masses. It's not gonna happen for you.
You're not that guy. What more is there to discuss?
Actually existing reality reigns supreme.
Unreality is already in the dustbin of non-history.

Stalinism isn't taken seriously in 90% of the world either, idiot
Difference is your ideology was just capitalist social democracy and failed already
Stop trying to revive your dead capitalist project and join the real movement that actually adheres to Marxism rather than seeing it as an aesthetic

If you want to expand or broaden your horizon (such as it is, I have serious doubts with any contemporary so-called left oppo), or move away from orthodoxy (now I'm just mocking you) start with Gramsci
Luxemburg
not whatever this shit is

I'm bored of you now

It's hilarious of Stalinoids call everyone else revisionists and lacking in theory, up until they come across a leftcom
Then suddenly reading and applying theory makes you a puritan wrecker, ohh can't you just see revisionism and commodities are so necessary, we just had to abandon internationalism because it was inconvenient, etc

>>2429744
>What happened with the NEP, and with Stalin's scrapping of the plans to end commodity production and wage labour?
They did end them, or at least marginalize them. Commodity production only existed in very limited forms in the USSR, mainly in the agricultural sector. However the large scale replacement of collective farms with state farms in the 50s and 60s marginalized it further. Communism strives for the total abolition of commodity production, however the marginal existence of it doesn't render a whole society capitalist any more than its marginal existence in the middle ages negated feudalism. This is exactly the point Stalin makes in the USSR and he draws on quotes from Engels to support it. Wage labour did not exist in the USSR. The compensation for workers in state industries followed the model described by Marx in Critique of the Gotha Program: deductions made for the maintenance and expansion of the means of production and support for those who could or did not work in productive industry (children, the elderly, soldiers, etc). There was no capitalist class to pocket surplus value as their private property, and no internal competition driving an endless M-C-M cycle of accumulation. The primary features of capitalist production (private property, wage labour, generalized commodity production, market anarchy) were either abolished entirely or thoroughly marginalized in the Soviet Union and other ML states.
>The invention of SIOC is therefore against Marx, against communist theory, against communist practice.
Socialism in one country never rejected internationalism. It was a tactical retreat designed to fortify the consolidate communist rule in the USSR because failure to do this would mean the defeat of the only proletariat state in the world, and thus a major setback for international socialism. Even during this phase however the USSR provided aid to socialist causes around the world via the Comintern, and after WW2 the USSR installed numerous socialist governments and provided vital support to socialist forces globally. The Soviet Union never abandoned internationalism.

File: 1755092737128.gif (885.15 KB, 1865x1969, bordigga.gif)

Reading cannot be proven lol
>applying
Do you expect any refutation to such a silly claim?
Have I not been asking what it is you actually do (forget that, what you think you could conceivably accomplish; if you cannot do it, start by imagining) for months?
Madness!

>>2430618
>me doesn't know how many people in the global south, Russia, China etc etc are respecters of Lenin Stalin, Mao

I was wondering where I put that
>>2429268
Simply refer back to the start of the thread lol
fpbp

>>2430629
>he LITERALLY thinks the global South worships statues of Mao and Stalin

You never been to (rural) China
I can tell
laughable
What's next.
Also mighty projection, you have no concept of other people, probably on a fundamental level

>>2430629
Stalin maybe but Mao and Lenin nah tf you are smoking. Lenin is radioactive to nationalists and Mao is just a Chinese statesman.

>>2430639
If you’ve watched a Panzai vlog you’ve visited rural china

>>2430626
Would love to see an ultroid sincerely respond to this

>>2430608
>Also the text (infantile disorder) does not (somehow) disagree with them
Thanks for admitting you have never read the text past its title.

>>2430629
Hello I'm a brown third worlder and i think white third worldist should stfu about us

ML tendency is synonymous with old fucks nationalist romantic electoral servants of the status quo. The only people who seek to establish a dotp here are what you libs would call leftcoms especially considering must hate the USSR who arming their national bourgeoisie in its genocide of commies in the past

ussr armed our regimes in its genocide of communists

Oh yeah
I can sense a bluff from a caliber like that from a mile away
I admit only that I know far more than you and am in all aspects a superior marxist (leninist, whatever you wanna call it) to a leftoid.
As I said, meta commentary. To take seriously such left-deviation is already losing.
>This text explicitly against left-deviation is actually pro "my super special tendency"
Ok m8 have a nice life

I don't read theory but every left communist I've met has been a petty bourgeois kkkracker

>>2430726
Always will be
Excuse my cribbing from this particular guy but
Exterminate petty booj crakkkers and left-deviation will disappear

>>2430726
>I don't read theory
Based

Didn't read the rest

Kill all lumpen/petty bourgeois westoids and the brown worker will hang the last capitalist by the intestines of the last imam

>>2430509
Crazy how nothing has changed, how anyone is convinced by the guy or any leftcom bullshit is beyond me

>>2430708
They can't respond to anything that doesn't let them regurgitate the same meme talking points they always bring up

>>2430717
This retard thinks infantile disorder doesn't generally apply to all leftcoms including the armchair lord lmao 😂

>>2430777
>Implying Lenin criticized his own vanguard model

Ah yes the vanguard, invention of Bordiga
By some leftcom time magic this came after the Russian Rev
Truly we are in the presence of marxist-leninist time wizards.

>>2430780
>Bbb bbut we're more Leninist than Lenin?! !
>Le party form, infantile disorder is about le party form
Its always like talking to a bot with you guys, retarded bots

fucking hell
do you even read what you are replying to?
Are you a malfunctioning AI? Legally you have to tell me Mr FBIcom
I am starting to (truthfully, I had an inkling much earlier, to say the least) be convinced this "we leftcom read" is cover not for moderate but advanced illiteracy. Provided we are dealing here with a malfunctioning bio-intelligence, not a machine. Can never be sure these days.

>>2430789
Googoogaga

>>2430780
Organic centralism is infantile, sorry.

File: 1755106318630.png (1.52 MB, 1142x761, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2430810
Googoogaga

>>2430809
>>2430819
The funny thing is that in terms of content this might as well be all leftcom theory amounts to. Meaningless gibber

>>2430830
Falsifier, denier, googoogaga

>>2430832
Bot brain 😂

The MLs are having a meltdown ITT, amazing

>>2430866
Lmao giga cope

>>2430780
Lenin literally criticizes Bordiga's anti-electoralism in the book you didn't read

>>2430819
Rojava is actually existing leninism

>>2430876
no it's not - read the minutae of the second congress in the rsdlp in particular the yuzhniy rabochiy drama

>>2429259
>Opportunism is when you refuse to embrace opportunism, which you’re supposed to do if you’re a white person, but no not to get welfare but actually so random african bourgeois make industry or something
<Also how the western left shifts will be determined by insular internet forums therefore not masturbating to the corpse of the Soviet Union or the idol of China gets in the way of Communism
Nice
Kys op

>>2430509
*ahem*
It's not the "opponents" of the left-puerile-sterile tendency that introduce this "confusion"

>>2429324
>Leftcoms are just mad that MLs completely failed at achieving a single goal ever articulated by Marxists and only ever achieved the goals set by Benito ᴉuᴉlossnW in the 20s, but they’re actually stupid cucks that need to reconfigure their brains to conform to idealism and voluntarist nonsense and pretend our failures and fascist sympathies stand beyond reproach
Why can’t MLs articulate why murdering you isn’t a retort when these are the nonsensical grounds you set? Wouldn’t we achieve more if you were all shot and stopped convincing workers socialism = the Third Reich or American capitalism but shittier (unless you’re homeless)

>muh lenin and stalin!
Kys you fucking larper.

>>2430800
*ahem*

>>2429638
MLs accepting they were vile liberals all along and running a fairly conventional bourgeois regime immediately afterwards is certainly their greatest contribution by far
Now you know for a fact if someone is an MLoid they are almost 100% a
market liberal that unironically thinks “socialism” is when the government intervenes in the economy


>>2429268
let's try one more time then (yet again)
*taps*

>>2430866
I mean the vast majority of modern MLs are literal illiterate teenagers that mock the idea of reading theory as “nerdy” and basically worship whatever tiktok faggot half regurgitates for them 1950s soviet propaganda literally made for children

>>2430925
Yeah that's the post I was replying to retard 😂😂😂

>>2430930
this is the state of most communists anon, leftcoms are just hipsters that want to brand themselves as an exotic niche ideology yet have no answers to what they critisize, and critisism for itself is useless.

Burger hours has been going on for a while now, the discussion is sub clanker level, and the ultraleftists are complaining about Lenin when the key to their liberation is his theory

>>2430930
Overwhelming majority of internet MLs I've had the misfortune of communicating with had never read anymore than the Communist Manifesto and got all their theory from watching the Deprogram

>>2430708
Sabocat redefined commodity production and wage labor so that they cease to exist under a monopolized economy, the Soviet Union paid out money wages and produced for the purpose of exchange, for which laborers received money which they utilized to sustain their existence, this money re-entered circulation which therefore set off the cycle of production and enlargement again; sabocat is an actual retard that could have easily ended up a lolbert arguing the US economy is also socialist due to how heavily monopolized it is

>>2430937
It always gets like this around this time of day doesn't it?

>>2430940
Aaaand that's a wrap folks, we're back on the Deprogram, which lives permanently, rent free and has a monument built in it's honor in leftcoms' heads. This is when you know you've reached bedrock with these retards

>>2430934
MLs just don’t like the answers leftcoms give, since they tend to be tied to materialist analysis; MLs are, however, extreme moralists, idealists, and tied to humanism; they’re so stupid they call themselves Marxists but mock academic analysis, as though Marx was himself an illiterate warlord like the people they tend to worship most. They don’t like that leftcoms do not give a fuck about the moral valence of the USSR or whatever the fuck and what existed in the leaders’ hearts. They hate that Leftcoms, holding to Marx state it doesn’t matter what the fuck the leadership of the USSR did because after a critical juncture socialism was simply beyond the horizon. They don’t need to provide a special model for them to have transcended that model because one doesn’t exist, material analysis isn’t meant to soothe the cowardly hearts of internet teenagers just barely developing political consciousness.

>>2430944
Yeah I disagree with that anon, four dudes farting into the mic for two hours is more theory than in MLs average lifespan.

>>2430626
So, why all the focus on only commodity production yet capitalism has other systemic points such as expropriation of collective wealth for private hands and private property as the central whims of the capitalist state, is it because marx says once how capitalism can be resumed to production of commodities even thought his entire's bibliogragy reflects dialetical relation of capitalism that can't exist without the other parts because it's a system.


>>2430946
Bro actually thinks leftcoms do "academic analysis" 😂😂😂

Also >googoogaga fascismo autismo

Got something for that.
I am vindicated. This is not vanity, no.
Pure practicality. I knew this would pay off and pay off fast and repeatedly.
See, now I don't have to actually read your drivel.
Yes, you are the bestest leftest
Can you now please play quietly over there now and leave these nice people alone, sweetie?
>>2430944
Isn't that a podcast? What is there to watch? Or is that classic leftoid misdirection?
I sometimes play podcast or similar but it's about the SCP foundation and such things.

>>2430944
People keep bringing up that shitty podcast because the vast majority of MLs actually did read and weren’t retarded enough to shill for Chinese capitalism before the spread of propaganda outlets aimed at stupid college kids like Greyzone, Deprogram, and Geopolitical Economy Report; before that shit enough self-proclaimed MLs actually did read enough that dengism was understood as a reactionary, pro-capitalist tendency and China was recognized for what it is, another rising imperial power competing with the falling American imperial power; self-loathing western teens enraged that capitalism in the West is crumbling and therefore becoming “socialists” and growing enamored with Chinese capitalism is an entirely internet enabled phenomenon

Remember Breakthrough News
It's where the cool kids get their news and such

>>2430946
that is alot of busswords, for a guy that screams about moralism.
what are the answers then, you will effectively attain power and realise every single one of the points marx said was nessesary at the claimed pace ?.

File: 1755111416867.jpeg (3.67 MB, 5712x4284, IMG_2320.jpeg)

>>2430956
Get on my level before I give your mom some more pipe, bitch
Or kys idc
>>2430961
>buzzwords
Theorylet confirmed

>>2430937
>Thirdoid admitting the thirdies from the most backward, underdeveloped countries in the world are still the staunchest advocates for the progressive value of nationalism, racial separatism, and capitalist development
TRVKE

File: 1755111540816-0.png (143.25 KB, 1869x649, lenin con kipling.png)

File: 1755111540816-1.png (210.9 KB, 1766x892, lenin 2 on liberals.png)

File: 1755111540816-2.png (74.87 KB, 1073x626, orwell on kipling.png)

Now play nice and preferably quietly over there or I will get out the Kipling/Orwell
and Zizek on Lenin

>>2430970
Interesting that not one of those writers is a leftcom
Do you think a “leftcom” is just anyone that ever criticized the USSR? 😂😂😂

Lmao this is genuinely the stupidest generation of MLoids by far, half of you probably would have talked your way into an NKVD assassination by accident

>>2430965
Any retard can write a bunch of overly wordy pedantic bullshit and pretend it's acedemic theory, as evidenced by Armchairlord himself and every retarded leftcuck itt. If it's anything like what other leftcoms produce, that paper would be worth more as toilet paper than as theory

>>2430965
>no argument just calling le theorylet
so you have no answers, got it, good to know it's all empty air.

>>2430965
>not ICP
bruh who reads this shit

>>2430977
As it always is with these guys

File: 1755111728550.png (23.56 KB, 1671x229, gramsci addenda.png)

Why would anyone listen to "leftcom" whatsoever? That's like the whole point. They are useless and beyond pointless.

>>2430969
so what marx and engels wanted ?.

>>2430958
I would just like to gently remind Americans that Marxist Leninism works, it worked in imperial Russia, it worked in the 1930's when Stalin lead an anticorruption charge at the corruption of middle manager types leading to the development of the mass line; it worked in China and created a new China

It worked for the Trotsky's entryists who went on to form the core of the neocons after planning a Leninist takeover of the republican party, the platform itself is probably still available

Leninism works, the burgers are dementedly dancing into fascism; which is great because fascism is incompetent and therefore acts like indiscriminate firebombing on the best citizens, except for all the suffering Americans

Perhaps you should take a page from Marxist Leninism and Bolshevik Leninism and do something about instead of indiscriminately destroying civilian neighbourhoods for well over half a century non-stop now?
三Q

File: 1755112111927.png (61.42 KB, 1683x410, purism annil.png)

This isn't even mine. We're in uncharted waters now, folks.
I am bringing back the anarchism to this board (or this thread) by proxy as a "tankie/ML/evil-impure/dark side of the force/real socialist"
It will be good again

>>2430958
Dengism is on the rise because of china's unprecedented economic growth and success in the last two decades you retard, not because of some college kids listening to a podcast that gets less than a million views on average lmao💀💀💀

But sure keep coping, you guys are definitely not obsessed 😂


>>2430990
I have no beef with them cause they generally leave me alone
Now, why can you not ever take a page from their book, leftcom-kun

>>2430991
He's too activist, he wants adventurism, he wants to boom and think later. He wants to live in the moment. This won't work. He needs to sit, read and have a good think.

Another version from /prc/ iirc
Now one may compare my take on the "leftcom's" take on (anti-)fascism (you following me here) with my other take on the same topic >>2430957 (first pic)

Man, that's kinda eh
See if I made any mistakes, inconsistencies. I am not gonna do that myself. I am already perfect.

Then there was also the brief interlude where they went full moralism and started blabbering about dead proles. So they dropped their position again. Whatever, does it matter?
Remember that brief time? Not one of the classics of the board, for sure.

Now you may tell me to go outside, my preemptive answer: it is far too hot (and already did so today, honest!)

>>2430969
>thirdoid
>thirdies
You're a liberal
t. avthentic marxist

>>2430965
>watch out guys a real marx understander has joined the chat
>links a book that isn't by Marx
Can't make this up

>commodity production
>Wage labor
>Money
>You hecking LOVE Stalin he is your hecking GOD
>We're le international TM, not like u Stalinoids
>Blabla Falsifiers blablabla
>"Left communism" an infantile disorder was actually only about councilcoms and not about us too
>Googoogaga
>The deprogam aaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh 😫😫😫
Did I miss anything?

>>2431022
>>commodity production
>>Wage labor
>>Money
True Marx should've wrote a scathing critique of mr. beast skibbdy lubobo instead

>>2431007
I remember this. They had that whole "waiter, waiter more dead proles" meme that they kept repeating ad nauseam. Seems like they moved on from that thought terminator since then, tho one called me a butcher or something the other day as well so they're still holding onto it to some extent

And here's where they get neatly folded into standard liberalism (etc., whatever the establishment of the day needs, you know the drill)
Any contact with reality reverts them to the liberal form [note: insert some analog chemical process later]
Quite a phenomenon.

>>2431024
Comparing yourself to marx or lenin does not validate your meme arguments leftcom. You are not Karl Marx and your "critique" is laughable.

>>2431031
>MLib thinks because he modernise Marx and pulls theory out his ass that means everyone does

lole

>>2431035
You literally compared yourself to Marx retard 😂 completely baselessly

>>2431022
Oh yeah!
>MLism is national socialism
>China is fascist
Some more leftcom retardation gems

>>2431036
Liberals like you think they can supplant Marx's critique with trash like this >>2430965

The common ML slur against us is "Marx worshippers"

Nice projection

And that's all folks
You may continue playing with "leftcom" but I wouldn't recommend it. He is very grumpy and irate today.

>>2431041
Literally nobody calls you that retard 😂😂😂
You just think you're like Marx, you believe yourself to be on his level (as evidenced by your continued referal to his method of critique when cornered "well if I'm a retard I guess Marx' ruthless criticism was retarded then too" type shit) because you are arrogant and childish, one might even call you infantile

File: 1755115227096.jpeg (238.62 KB, 1920x1080, gu.jpeg)


>>2431053 (me)
Also just another point on the absurd "marx worshiper" claim. It is actually leftcoms who call other people worshippers. Particularly worshippers of Stalin ofc, but also other so called butchers of the proletariat. It's pure unadulterated projection

>>2430954
>yet capitalism has other systemic points such as expropriation of collective wealth for private hands and private property as the central whims of the capitalist state
That didn't exist in the USSR either.

When did socialism become the dictatorship of the armchair?

>>2431017
>Wtf treating Marxism like godless science read the holy text bro and nothing else literally books creating solely to expand on Capital shouldn’t be written Marx said explicitly do not read anyone seeking to develop my analysis unless they’re like chinese or something
>>2431014
>avthentic marxist
<somehow offended i didnt respect his national background
>>2430988
>Dengism is on the rise because of China’s unprecedented growth
Yes my very first comment was pointing out modern mloids are 90% unreconstructed liberals, are you following?

>>2431105
true,it always was dictatorship of the ("representatives" of the) proletariat

>>2430984
>Marxism-Leninism works
Where is the Soviet Union and any of our allies? Where is the socialism? Is it with America’s biggest trading partner?
> It worked for the Trotsky's entryists who went on to form the core of the neocons after planning a Leninist takeover of the republican party, the platform itself is probably still available
Trots are barely distinguishable from MLoids, their shared commitment to the liberal reich is noted
> Leninism works, the burgers are dementedly dancing into fascism; which is great because fascism is incompetent and therefore acts like indiscriminate firebombing on the best citizens, except for all the suffering Americans
MLism is such a catastrophic error the average MLoid will try appealing to the average American by telling them their life will be mostly identical but they’ll have better welfare and can’t listen to rap music anymore and will probably be poorer if they’re any kind of professional (“but you deserve it!” lmao)
> Perhaps you should take a page from Marxist Leninism and Bolshevik Leninism and do something about instead of indiscriminately destroying civilian neighbourhoods for well over half a century non-stop now?
But I thought ethnically cleansing proletarians is ML praxis from the father and pathfinder Stalin himself? Don’t MLs already believe in ethnically cleansing reactionary ethnicities and bombing proletarian neighborhoods from the wrong national background to begin with?
>>2430977
Thus far nobody, from Marx to Lenin, has completed a successfully implemented theory of transition, if MLs read Marx, which they largely despise, they would start to understand Marx recognized immense challenges in creating a theory of transition when history is fundamentally open by nature, much of his critiques were of contemporary attempts at or theories of transition; what we can do are analyze the various failures and why they failed; MLs are among those failures, so far among those the extreme cynical absurdity of ML historical and contemporary rhetoric, namely, MLs have to justify why the most brutal impositions on proletarians, domination of their labor-power, and domination of their political life, was in fact towards the construction of a future diametrically opposed to such things that also failed to materialize due specifically to the ultimate actions of the party-states themselves (self-abolition to resolve the contradiction of maintaining “socialism” when it’s actually the opposite of socialism that is being maintained and it is globally opposed by the more normal and already dominant manifestations of the capital system)

It’s so absurd MLs of the contemporary age, totally awash in so much cynicism I think MLs generally hold both proletarians and communism in dual hateful contempt, they actually have to frame China’s success at maintaining and developing a capitalist economy, as itself the development of socialism (this is where MLoids actually do become virtually indistinguishable from hitlerites at least in how they define “socialism”)

>>2429259
The Russian and Chinese revolutions were bourgeois revolutions wrapped in red paint. Lenin and Mao were basically biff from back to the future using Das Capital to speed run 100 years of industrialization in the span of a couple decades.

And to make it perfectly clear, I believe Lenin and Mao were communists and the USSR and PRC are great achievements that show communist absolute do capitalism better. I “critical support” (talk good about them online) both of them.

>>2431213
No you said MLs stan china because of "propaganda outlets" like the deprogam and whatever other outlets that you threw in there to safe face lol. You literally said that's why they stopped reading theory you disingenuous retard 😂

>>2431225
>Socialism is when no trade
The absolute state of leftcoms

>>2431054
source for marx quote please?

>>2431225
>Thus far nobody, from Marx to Lenin, has completed a successfully implemented theory of transition.
you still didn't answer what must be done, all you did, and seemly all you can do is critics of what was NOT done, and empty platitutes of how they are wrong, yet that is not an anwser to nothing they did wrong.
again, what is the answer, if marx and lenin were so truthful and is only MLs that were wrong tell the truth in their theory.

Feudalism->Capitalism->Socialism->Communism

Please press the gommunism button or something waahwaah

>>2431251
There are some brave souls who actually pressed the communism button

>>2431256
That was palace economy communism though

>>2431242
> you still didn't answer what must be done
There is nothing you as an individual, nor a party you personally like, nor a hypothetical government you would wish to see installed, can do to “create socialism”
If you were a literate Marxist you would be close to getting this, but you’re committed to defending your own sentimental attachment to failure

The leftcommunist critique of the USSR and equivalent states has nothing to do with what they “should” or “should not” have done, anymore than Marx’s critique of capital was about what the bourgeoisie “should” or “shouldn’t” do
>>2431240
>Socialism is the abolition of commodity exchange
That would be the Marxist stance, yes, market socialism was actually the position of Proudhon most famously
>>2431237
Damn you’re actually right, saying it was just propaganda from Greyzone would imply the average MLoid has serious convictions, principles, or more than a vibes based concept of socialism, the “failed PMC liberal finding out China is rich and controlled by a ‘communist party’” to “devoted Dengoid promoting the victory of Chinese national-market-socialism in one country” is the real pipeline with a single pit stop

>>2431240
Within the co-operative society based on common ownership of the means of production, the producers do not exchange their products; just as little does the labor employed on the products appear here as the value of these products, as a material quality possessed by them, since now, in contrast to capitalist society, individual labor no longer exists in an indirect fashion but directly as a component part of total labor.

Are you implying the MOP isn't even owned under socialism?

>>2431259
>There is nothing you as an individual, nor a party you personally like, nor a hypothetical government you would wish to see installed, can do to “create socialism”
so it's all useless idealism, correct ?.
you can't do anything other than empty critiques with no answers.
>anymore than Marx’s critique of capital was about what the bourgeoisie “should” or “shouldn’t” do
yet marx supported, participated and gave answers to what he thought was to be done in organization and the development into communism many times, support for the Chartists to ending secret societies into parties where some, his theories about what needed to be abolished were too such answers.
yet again, you have none even when claiming the theories of marx and lenin was all that was needed, so they had the answers, which where ?.

File: 1755128263515.jpeg (7.43 KB, 284x177, leftcom theory.jpeg)

Leftcoms' idea of a political program

>>2431259
>Damn you’re actually right
Duhdoi I've been right about everything and you've been a retarded faggot 😂😂😂

But thanks I accept your concession to defeat and I will expect your apology in the form of ritual suicide by self disembowelment aka harakiri

>>2431241
Just put any part of it in google with quote marks it will show you

Its from the manuscripts

>>2431213
Holy ideology store shopper

I thought this uygha was an ultra for a sec

Those who claim Marx alone isn't sufficient for the modern day have to prove that we no longer live under the same social order and mode of production of Marx when he wrote capital :)

File: 1755155035423.jpg (51.46 KB, 637x669, driver.jpg)

>>2431824
What the fuck does that mean? Really, what is being argued?
Marx was not sufficient back in his own day, hence all the political struggle.
He did not get far politically. Marx as politician is anything but a success.
As a theoretician, he was and remains the GOAT. Quirked up white boy GOATed with the sauce.
Chew on that. I can't understand you (people) and I don't think I really want to.
"Marx alone" also is strongly reminiscent of "sola scriptura", I don't think that's an accident.

>>2431824
This is metaphysics


>>2431835
>>2431839
>word salad
Nice
>white
He was mena, stick to your own kin kkkrakkker.

Well that's the last time I ask one of yous for clarification. What did I expect etc.
Have this anyway
As Karl is generally regarded as white (european, german) and race has no real independent reality, that makes him white for (almost) all intents and purposes. Except for shitposting, which is fine.

MENA also is no ethnicity or skin color. It's a region. A rather vast region.

>>2431824
>I bear witness that there is no god but Marx the most dialectical the most critical and Lenin [pbuh] is his prophet

>>2430965
>Socdem Mészáros
Epig


Thanks allah for making Marx mena which makes western liberals eternally butthurt their great man isn't ewropoorean

>>2431910
Yeah that's me bitch I'm calling you an evangelical retard when you're being one itt. Doesn't mean that's the "common" "slur" against you, and it doesn't take away that it was you guys out here saying we think Stalin is an infallible god first. Lmfao you are so fucking dumb

>>2431916
ty for conceding

File: 1755167651530.png (246.77 KB, 309x469, ClipboardImage.png)


>>2431917
Didn't concede to anything other than you being a faggot retard

File: 1755168695983-0.png (192.77 KB, 500x680, 1473024455493.png)

File: 1755168695983-1.jpg (106.33 KB, 500x500, 1436636408218.jpg)

File: 1755168695983-2.png (249.84 KB, 663x666, 1677435290931.png)

File: 1755168695983-3.jpg (16.01 KB, 532x766, 1676224004178.jpg)

I still, coming back to this hours later, do not know what he even thinks he is arguing.
I have a strong suspicion we are dealing with an american here but it is not yet fully american hours.

https://blackagendareport.com/western-marxism-loves-purity-and-martyrdom-not-real-revolution

>Being asked questions regarding this or that, he resorts to verbal contortions, to eel-wriggling: ‘I don’t think so. I don’t think in that way. I don’t think otherwise. I don’t think not. I don’t think not not.’

-Buddha

>Nowadays many people are calling for a transformation to a national, scientific and mass style. That is very good. But "transformation" means thorough change, from top to bottom and inside out. Yet some people who have not made even a slight change are calling for a transformation. I would therefore advise these comrades to begin by making just a little change before they go on to "transform", or else they will remain entangled in dogmatism and stereotyped Party writing. This can be described as having grandiose aims but puny abilities, great ambition but little talent, and it will accomplish nothing. So whoever talks glibly about "transformation to a mass style" while in fact he is stuck fast in his own small circle had better watch out, or some day one of the masses may bump into him along the road and say, "What about all this 'transformation', sir? Can I see a bit of it, please?" and he will be in a fix. If he is not just prating but sincerely wants to transform to a mass style, he must really go among the common people and learn from them, otherwise his "transformation" will remain up in the air. There are some who keep clamouring for transformation to a mass style but cannot speak three sentences in the language of the common people. It shows they are not really determined to learn from the masses. Their minds are still confined to their own small circles.

https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-3/mswv3_07.htm

He doesn't think he's arguing anything at all, he has no position to argue lol

>>2431256
I cannot imagine how they came up with their policies. No one ever went
>We can either do this right or we can do it fast
?
>Fuck it
>Year Zero

>>2431928
Cambodia was in a pretty rough spot at that time

>>2431926
That seems to be proven beyond reasonable doubt.
I just fundamentally can't understand what the purpose of it is (or could conceivably be). I am a reasonable guy and I assume others have a reason to behave the way they behave as well.
I dunno, there's worse irrationality out in the world, in real life. So I suppose it fundamentally doesn't matter. People sure are a strange species.

>>2431932
Yeah I don't understand how anyone can sincerely hold their "positions" either, it's hard to tell if they're just trolling or if they're actually trying to say something. I guess what it comes down to is that in their case that's basically the same thing, there's no real point to any of it other than anti communism. At first I tried to at least somewhat engage with them as they seemed decently well read and I was interested but it became clear that that's first of all not true and secondly that it's a dead end and a huge waste of time. Really nothing left but to mock them on sight imo, they're not worth actual consideration because they present nothing to consider. Even with trots and anarchists you can at least have a discussion about something

i swear guys we're going to hit the communism button just as soon as x

File: 1755175022160.webm (7.8 MB, 720x480, the great debate.webm)

>>2431942
Yes, I am in total agreement and have been for some time. This is notable as I oftentimes do not even agree with myself perfectly.
As to the last part, I think it shows in a most striking manner the importance of holding a position (I see the so-called leftcom as a fringe position but there are other less extreme, stubborn or demented forms of this, like baby marxists).


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