leftypol in 2016
>Occupy Wall Street was compromised cause identity politics. You know, all those people saying all men are rapist, all whites are racists,… We aren't those people. Those oversimplifications and generalizations obfuscate reality. Identity politics are an obstacle to class consciousness. The culprit is capitalism. And the solution is revolution to achieve communism.
leftypol in 2025
>All westerners benefit from imperialism and are fascist.
>>2433541All the Chapo newfags that flooded in here after their Reddit got taken down changed this place for the worse. Now you have people unironically shilling Settlers and Sakai.
>>2433584>i still believe in the former but you gotta admit america isn't what it was 10 years ago culturallyDoesn't mean the Tumblrites and Sakai were right. Anybody that believes that race or nationality and not class is the primary contradiction is nothing but a crude anti-Marxist.
>>2433589Pol Pot was nothing but a puppet of the CIA and Thai monarchy that killed communists on their behalf.
>>24335412016 is when I first went on leftypol. Felt like the last 10 years kind of just disappeared. I guess Covid was a part of that but the Trump term and especially the Biden term just kinda vanished. Doesn't really feel like anything progressed at all in America.
I guess we had momentary happenings like the Summer of Floyd and etc. to distract us here and there, but mostly been a slog of nothing.
>>2433615>leftypol's decline dates back to something within the first 20% of its historyThen why are you still here? Lol.
>Reee the general opinion on this board is and has always been contrary to mine and I will never shut up about it reeee!!Damn you're persistent.
>>2433541>Occupy Wall Street was compromised cause identity politics.<it was compromised due to no actual class consciousness and wider organizational apperatus, idpol was just used as a weapon to help break apart the movement >You know, all those people saying all men are rapist, all whites are racists,… We aren't those people. Wrong. All people are racist because racism is ingrained within the society we have, but the only racism that actual has and reinforces the status quo is white supremacist racism because the American capitalist system is built upon white supremacy. This white supremacist racism is built within the superstructure but it has changed overtime but the racism is still very much ingrained within the system.
>Those oversimplifications and generalizations obfuscate reality.This whole "anti"-idpol argument also engages with the very same oversimplification. This has led to the idpolification of the anti-idpol zeitgeist of leftypol.
>The culprit is capitalism. And the solution is revolution to achieve communism.<literal oversimplification personified
>All westerners benefit from imperialism and are fascist.<leftypol uses the same brain dead fingerpointing and simplification the try and explain the historic compromise between labor and capital within the centers of capital to very much the same retarded outcome but now there is less lolcows to laugh at. >oversimplifications and generalizations obfuscate reality.reality: Kubrick's documentary film Eyes Wide Shut, about the PMC club of Jeffrey Epstein where middle class wives are just fancy prostitutes who groom their daughters into being sex objects to be consumed by pagan patriarchy
http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/amk/doc/0096.html>>2433601>unironically shilling Settlers and SakaiMarxists really spent the last ten years scolding everyone about how idpol is divisive, while never once speaking to their slaves who have actual proletarian jobs in farms and factories. "What does third-worldism even mean??" - Jewish art critics on the Doomscroll NYC podcast who will never talk to their nonwhite slave caste who are imprisoned in the segregated nazi ghetto not a far distance away from the imperial core of finance imperialism
>crude anti-Marxist"nuance" is the rhetoric we see from PMC Zionist demons like Contrapoints, don't give it to them
>>2433541Decided ask deep seek to see if they can scrounge the site to pinpoint the moment of decline. This is what they came up with
Based on the provided search results—particularly the
/meta/ thread discussing leftypol's decline and broader context from other boards—here's a synthesized analysis of the platform's perceived decay, its root causes, and potential resolutions:
—
### 🔍
Core Complaints About leftypol's Decline 1.
Deteriorating Post Quality - Users report a surge in low-effort content (e.g., AI-generated posts, repetitive /pol/-style bait) and a drop in "effortposts" (substantive analysis). Sectarian infighting (e.g., "anti-ML and anti-Anarchist dunking") dominates discourse, often resembling "glowie playbook" tactics to fragment leftist unity .
- Increased "samefagging" (users masquerading as multiple people) and neoliberal/liberal posters derailing threads (e.g., pro-EU users "mad Russia hasn’t collapsed") .
2.
Moderation Failures - Staff are criticized for inconsistency: banning users for minor "idpol" or sectarianism while ignoring harmful behavior (e.g., "Rapefiend" normalizing assault, CSAM in /siberia/) .
- Poor technical moderation: Spam, porn, and reactionary content persist for hours .
3.
Cultural Shifts -
"Oldfags vs. Newfags": Veteran users ("oldfags") burned out or aged out, while new arrivals bring "more brain damage than ever" .
-
Chan Culture Toxicity: The anonymity-first structure encourages trolling, short attention spans, and anti-intellectualism (e.g., "Read a fucking book" is a recurring plea) .
-
Loss of Identity: The board’s original anti-idpol stance feels outdated, stuck in 2015-era "Gamergate vs. SJW" debates while failing to address modern fascism .
4.
Technical and Structural Issues - Broken search functions, slow archives, and board fragmentation (e.g., splitting into /news/, /theory/, /int/) dilute active discussion .
- "Generals" (megathreads) for topics like Ukraine or Palestine become bloated and unmanageable, stifling new conversations .
—
### 🌪️
Why This Decline Isn’t New (But Is Accelerating) -
Historical Context: leftypol has *always* struggled with its identity. As early as 2017, critics noted it was a "dumpster of Left ideologies" where edgy teens, chan culture, and theoretical illiteracy clashed .
-
External Pressures:
-
Right-Wing Flood: 4chan downtime sent "/pol/ refugees" to leftypol, importing reactionary rhetoric .
-
State Sabotage?: Users allege CIA/FBI infiltration to "fracture leftist organizing" via spam, degeneracy, and board fragmentation .
-
Broader Internet Decline: Pandemic-induced online activity exacerbated attention deficits and "doomer" nihilism .
—
### ⚖️
Can leftypol Be Saved? Divergent Paths #### 🔄
Reform (The Optimist’s View) -
Stricter Moderation: Enforce "heyuri rule 8"-style bans on low-effort memes and glowie bait. Prioritize user safety (e.g., expelling rape apologists) .
-
Cultural Reset: Incentivize theory discussions, readings, and IRL organizing links (e.g., strike trackers ). Reject chan-era "shitposting as praxis."
-
Technical Revival: Fix search/archival tools and consolidate boards to reduce fragmentation .
#### ☠️
Acceptance (The Nihilist’s View) - leftypol’s decline mirrors the broader left’s failures: infighting, burnout, and inability to counter fascism. As one user declared: *"The proletariat is a pathetic, vile, barely human mass"* .
- Let it die as a relic. Focus energy on underground organizing ("clandestine vanguard") or alternative platforms .
#### ✨
Synthesis (The Pragmatist’s View) -
Preserve Core Strengths: leftypol remains one of the few spaces for
non-sectarian debate without bans/doxxing (e.g., anarchists vs. MLs can clash freely) .
-
Archive and Migrate: Salvage high-effort posts for leftypedia/Leftybooru , while migrating serious organizers to encrypted channels (Matrix, Onion sites) .
-
Embrace "Yard Time": Recognize that online spaces can’t replace touch-grass organizing. As noted in your prior exchange: *"The revolution grows one blade at a time."*
—
### 💎
Conclusion: Decline Is Inevitable—Legacy Is Not leftypol’s decay stems from
structural flaws in chan-based leftism—not unique to it, but amplified by its anonymity and anti-moderation ethos. While revival is unlikely, its role as a meme factory, archive of leftist thought, and cautionary tale holds value. As one meta-user lamented: *"Your unwillingness to see reality is what causes people to vote right-wing"* . The board’s fate now rests on whether users choose to build anew or linger in the digital rubble.
For deeper context, explore the [full /meta/ thread](
https://leftypol.org/meta/res/41813.html) or the [USApol discussions](
https://leftypol.org/leftypol/res/2418173.html) on systemic rot .
>>2433656kek. as if those who contributed quality discussion to old /leftypol/ were even around here anymore.
most posters here today didn't have internet access back then because they were 10 years old.
>>2433541you're acting like this is a bad thing.
/leftypol/ just came to terms with the FACT that to achieve communism JDPON is needed. The PMC, petite bourgeois treatlarian counterrevolutionary western "left" is simply incapable of overcoming the ontological evil presented to them in the form of the Fascist AmeriKKKan regime and the rest of the imperial KKKore.
>>2433700That's right, Jay.
Anyone who runs is a Kkkolonizer
Anyone who stands still is a well disciplined KKKolonizer
hhahahahaha
Get some, come on
>>2433541> Occupy Wall Street was compromised cause identity politics. You know, all those people saying all men are rapist, all whites are racists,… We aren't those people. Those oversimplifications and generalizations obfuscate reality. Identity politics are an obstacle to class consciousness. The culprit is capitalism. And the solution is revolution to achieve communism.Shit like this is why I chose to never be more than a lurker and tourist on this board. The identities that woke idpol harps on about ARE CLASSES just as much as bourgeois and proletarian are. If you don't realize this, you are a dogmatist who refuses to apply the Immortal Science creatively and are indistinguishable from a chud.
>>2433601> All the Chapo new[homophobic slur]s that flooded in here after their Reddit got taken down changed this place for the worse. Now you have people unironically shilling Settlers and Sakai.All of the based (i.e. pro-idpol) chapos went to Hexbear. Yous is all stuck with the cringe stupidpol types.
>>2433791race is a classist construct
thats why the division of labour is ordered on a racial basis for different societies - such as in transatlantic slavery or the indian caste system. even today, there is an inherently racial element to class structure.
>>2433541People are largely forced to look like that when responding to bad faith actors.
I personally don't share that position, but there was a huge mask off moment when 90% of westerners who call themselves leftist chose to unequivocally support their capital in its military efforts to enslave the rest of the world, and in fact started criticizing it for not starting WW3 right away. These same people come here every damn day to say that
>you see, skullraping everyone who dares to resist my home neoliberal imperialist hegemony as it existed up to 2022 is fine and should happen, and it totally will happen even though capitalism has destroyed military-industrial capacity the west had. aaalso i'm gay and i support rent controls, look I have a flag with red on it <3and that's the best type since they don't do this absolutely retarded circus where they pretend to care about the working class/Palestine/building communism more than you do when they have done 0 research on the subject, and I mean zero since even a cursory glance at fucking social media would reveal that they are wrong.
Mods encourage this coy bad faith behavior. They prefer it to reasonable discussion because then the site is more non-sectarian or some shit since more perspectives are present. The fact that this presence is effectively trolling is irrelevant to them or even preferable. I would love to do more effortposting but it's just not worth the effort with these fucking automatons who simply hold their positions for cultural reasons. I make posts that are larger than the ones I respond to and don't get any engagement almost every day in this shithole. These people don't want to engage reasonably, they are here to own the people they dislike.
Mods still haven't walked back that bullshit degeneralization that resulted in all these retarded slide threads since they prefer it this way. Decline in quality is in line with their "real leftist" bs.
This has no relevance at all to the actual western people, who are largely powerless and voiceless, and just check out of thinking about politics since no force that represents them exists. They have shown that they can be receptive to communist messaging and they have a great hatred for their capitalist masters, as the shooting of Brian Thompson has shown. Communists don't really ask for anything more from the people.
But if you come here to defend siding with imperialist capital, if you attack its enemies relentlessly while not mentioning any other issues except to use them as a weapon, then yes, I think that the fact that a significant but shrinking part of the western working class is bought off with colonial spoils is quite relevant to the discussion.
>>2433863Thank you I feel seen.
I will stop calling for the death of every single westoid for like three days or 72 hours.
Starting…now
>>2433589Something wheels
Something history
>>2433863> People are largely forced to look like that when responding to bad faith actors.I have never encountered an ML that wasn’t themselves a bad faith actor.
> I personally don't share that position, but there was a huge mask off moment when 90% of westerners who call themselves leftist chose to unequivocally support their capital in its military efforts to enslave the rest of the world, and in fact started criticizing it for not starting WW3 right away.The vast majority of self-described Marxists are open advocates for nationalism, rationalize the perpetuation of the entire bourgeois society, openly tell you communism is functionally impossible to reach, and unironically say socialism is when the government owns things, not even everything just enough things, you can have billion dollar private businesses and still be socialist if the government can seize the business (they can legally do this in almost every country including America)
> and that's the best type since they don't do this absolutely retarded circus where they pretend to care about the working class/Palestine/building communism more than you do when they have done 0 research on the subject, and I mean zero since even a cursory glance at fucking social media would reveal that they are wrong.This is just a low I.Q. MLoid appeal to moralism, where the solution to ethno-nationalism is also ethno-nationalism and abandon communism because *atrocity porn*
Mate if we don’t end capitalism within the next twenty to thirty years every single country will have a Gaza
Anyone advocating half measures and the continued perpetuation of capitalist production and its various destructive contradictions needs to be fucking shot, especially if they are a leftoid and thus only exist to secure the defeat of socialism
Nothing else to say, so sick of moralist faggots whining that maybe 1% of the people here still refuse to shill for nationalism, masculinity, and capital
>>2434655What's your angle here though? me I'm a bed confined cripple studying Marxism as a science because it is the way to a world of abundance where people work on something because they want to, because it will make things even better.
So that's my stake in all this.
Like what's your point? Everybody comes from a personal perspective, what's yours?
>>2434676Alright, my liege.
One can never know in this day and age.
>>2434678 (me)
I spent too much time on the internet and got irony poisoned i guess.
Ever thought that /leftypol/ got more internationalized over time, and instead of it being a 90% American and British board back then, more people from different continents arrived bringing their anti-imperialist perspectives into the conversation? Also /leftypol/ in 2015 was mostly anarchists, leftcoms and Bookchinites/Rojavafags who thought anti-imperialism is "fascist" while MLs were mocked, now /leftypol/ is mostly an ML board where leftcommunists and anarchists are mocked.
I'd argue this board is mostly still anti-Idpol but the terms changed over time. Instead of identity politics people now call it "woke". Show me a thread about intersectionality or post-colonial theory.
Ultimately, I think this is the result of the realization that the Western left is a hopeless project and the best chance for socialism comes from the periphery, Russia, China, Brazil, Mexico, India, etc.
>>2434759Do these "brown chauvinists" advocate for socialistic policies or neoliberalism/lolbert shit?
I'm not saying that's because of their race, but the historical experience that capitalism was never good for them, so of course they are more likely to advocate for a different economic system. See the EFF for example (they accept white cadres and even white impoverished farmers even, btw).
>>2434808leftcoms and anarchists were always mocked, what are you talking about.
also proclaiming this sad shadow of a former self is more international than 8ch was is delulu
>>2434816Leftcoms were revered as "theory posters", anarchists were maybe mocked, but the Rojava faction of the latter was held in high regard.
In 2017 I literally got banned because I posted about a CPC party congress for "promoting capitalism", lmao
Yeah. I think it's because since 8chan went down and /leftypol/ became independent, a lot of 8chan's bad reputation that kept retards from posting here stopped existing around /leftypol/, and now people feel free to treat /leftypol/ like it's r/socialism or r/communism but anonymous. As retarded as most of 8chan's users were, they were definitely good at gatekeeping the site.
>>2433615>Leftypol's decline can be pinpointed to when Old BO had a freakout and decided to purge anyone who wasn't a Dengist.And /leftpol/ has gone with 8chan, so there's nowhere else to go.
>>2434417This is a leftist shitposting imageboard, it is not a movement. We're not "recruiting" anyone.
>>2434808>Also /leftypol/ in 2015 was mostly anarchists, leftcoms and Bookchinites/Rojavafags who thought anti-imperialism is "fascist" while MLs were mocked, now /leftypol/ is mostly an ML board where leftcommunists and anarchists are mocked.That was due to mod action, it was not organic. Marxism-Leninism has never organically won out in online leftist spaces, the reason it's so popular now is because around 2016-17 a bunch of leftist spaces began enforcing "critical support" to Marxist-Leninist states and from there Marxist-Leninists slowly won out with support from sympathetic mods and admins. Nowadays, most leftist spaces will ban you if you criticize Marxism-Leninism beyond surface level critiques of individual actions.
/leftypol/ may be a shadow of its former self, but two things I still like about it are the freedom that comes with an anonymous imageboard, as well as the fact that you can harshly criticize other leftist tendencies here, whether it's Marxism-Leninism, left communism, or anarchism. This is one of the only leftist spaces that still exists where you can do that, provided it's not just an attempt to epicly own the tankies/anarkiddies, and I think that's something very special and great about this place that still gives it an edge over other online leftist communities.
Maybe some day we'll be able to Make /leftypol/ Great Again, who knows :^)
>>2435634lol get a job loser
communism wont happen on the internet because 1) the immiserated wage worker doesnt get much time to waste 2) its flooded by middle classers who DO have quite a lot of free time to waste
>it doesn't matter how you try to rationalize it hththeres no problem to begin with because the internet has always been politically impotent just as the average internet dweller :)
>>2433633This.
>>2435599I wish I shared your optimism, but so long as we keep making excuses for reactionaries and maintain this "anti-idpol" line, we're only going to get worse.
>>2435648>reactionariesyou know any kind of liberal reform is also considered reactionary and not only the ones you dont like, right
>and maintain this "anti-idpol" linegod forbid communists only focus on class like communists do. anyway what anti-idpol anyway? its making fun of third worldists what gets you banned, not the other way around
>>2433550What we should learn from sjws is that's how you properly combat liberalism even if their logic is a cinder block
Your enemies will always try making you hold yourself to a standard they never will. They'll never respect you, they'll never give you an inch, they'll never listen to reason… You don't owe them equal treatment under law and principle.
>Imagine if the roles were reversed!!!You don't have to imagine you live it
Make them live it too
Hold mods to horrendous standards
>>2433541Westerners include:
Fags
Women
Minorities
Fats
Disabled
Trans
And whatever made up identity I forgot to include
Being a westernoid is being a part of the imperial system
>>2433757>The identities that woke idpol harps on about ARE CLASSES just as much as bourgeois and proletarian are.Eh, I don't buy this, they're really not. I don't think there's anything necessarily revolutionary or proletarian about my sexual orientation. The queer radical stuff is always something I've been suspicious about. I've never been able to relate to it, and I don't have a good theory as to why I don't, it just doesn't vibe with me. Like, you being queer is like being Palestinian and we're going to intersectionally connect this together somehow. Nah. I've experienced some threatening homophobia but those people are getting killed. They're also really poor. There's something idiotic and self-absorbed about that which bothers me. I might be self-absorbed but it's just not the same thing.
It's different from oppression of women, like dominance of men over women, and the exploitation of women's labor on large scale. My thing is all very compatible with consumer capitalism, and we benefit from globalization that has turned our thing into a global entertainment industry, and I'm not afraid to accept that. It's just urbanization, modernization, forces of production, technology. Our thing is kind of a byproduct of it. Do people WANT their identities to be really radical? What if they're not? Who are you trying to impress? Also, while I'm saying this, there's nothing stopping capital from commodifying your anti-idpol communist "identity" and selling it back to you as an aesthetic either.
You can also find stuff in Marx where he was talking about how capital would transform the world in an IRREVERSIBLE way. He had zero concern for pre-capitalist social relations. So unlike the anti-idpol types, I don't think there's any "putting the toothpaste back in the tube." Trying to put gays back in the closet isn't going to work, simply because we stopped caring. The communist groups that decide to be homophobic because they think that will make them popular and successful don't need my support, and don't seem to want it.
There is definitely a cynical use of idpol by politicians though. I saw Andrew Cuomo trying to attack Zohran Mamdani for having his wedding in Uganda because Uganda has a homophobic government. But c'mon, the dude has family there. I live in a state with a homophobic government! It used to be worse! This stuff is really stupid and cynical. Cuomo's father planted ads against Ed Koch that said "Vote for Cuomo, not the homo."
>>2435950>[isn't anything] revolutionary or proletarian about my sexual orientationSomeone put it well the last time I saw Pride stuff on the telly. "We are not proud of our identity, we are proud that we have struggled for so long"
>being queer is like being PalestinianAs an outsider, that is what makes it into a "force".
Existence is resistance. So in this they are "natural allies", in my book.
And like, I had conversation with my friends (the council of liberals) and they were saying shit like: So arabs and queers, isn't there friction?
And I'm like no, not at all.
As a regular homo, you don't have much issue (speculating here) but there are still places in the west (and things are from the little I've seen, backsliding) where being trans is like a problem. And if you are a problem you are my friend. Fuck the system, of course. Existence is resistance.
I don't know anything about intersect. I am a straight hwhitey and dogmatic in my politics, however, I dunno, I guess I delight in different perspectives if they don't try to "fuck with me" or fuck me over politically, which they don't.
That's why, on Palestine actions there is, if the thing is big enough, a queer bloc and a commie bloc.
To me they are equivalent, as an "old commie". But then the commie bloc is generally organized by or "for" the trots, the dominant species of this ecosystem in the west.
Fucking trots.
I dunno, that is all to say, I don't care what bourgeois queers are doing.
I just want to put any picture to the post. I don't even know what is going on there.
>>2436006The one thing we can say about reality is that it is. Beyond that things will get fuzzy.
So we argue about dumb shit and then argue about arguing about dumb shit.
>>2436014I have made my identity relatively clear in that post and gone on to explain or bring some nuance to the slogan. It is precisely the opposite of your reading in this way.
Yes, slogans are unenlightened, oversimplified.
They are a tool, some of us can use it, some don't understand them, try as they might.
If there is some narcissism in the subconscious recesses of my noggin, it is precisely built on rhetorical mastery of the infernal tongue (in this instance; there are other cognitive exercises and so on). So do me a favor eh
And try processing things in context.
Also, I read. This sets me worlds apart from most of you.
Kill whitey
>>2436028None of us are special and all of us are special.
The point is to be special in the right (productive etc.) way.
>>2436031K
I tried explaining and now there's nothing I can do for you anymore
There is nothing "valuable" in anyone's existence or there is value in everyone's (and everything's) existence. They are again equivalent.
Everything is nothing and nothing is everything.
Bye now
>>2436034Yeah do keep trying tho.
Enter the Void.
>>2436035you genuinely think your breath is like gold dust.
that is very concerning. narcissism, as i say.
look in the mirror and say to yourself "im not special" for therapy.
And hell, thanks for introducing the topic so I can go on about it
>Which I suspect is the reason I frequent this place anyway, at this stage. It's "fun" to be a big fish in a small pond. And how might this be achieved? by simply doing a modicum of actual reading. Yes, it is that easy. I am in the top percentile in terms of marxist theory in this wasteland. And I say that with no vanity and take no real pleasure in it. It is sad but true.It's "big fish in ever increasingly small pond syndrome", I was the one who introduced the aspect of "narcissism" long ago (why am I still here, anyway)
But anyway to bring it back to the topic (see what I did there), yes this place sucks now. But it is important to understand why and how it sucks, and I'd wager it is not for the reasons most think it does (beyond mods being more and more incapable with time, which is trivial).
>>2436081Oversimplifications obfuscate (or break down to such and such aspect) a more complex reality. That's the whole point, it's tautological! What a mess.
>>2436085Ok you got me. Meta discussion is like crack to me. Happy now motherfucker?
>>2435682What is Haz "the Great White Baby Shark" Al-Din's stance here called?
My entry: Bouncer in the streets, theoretician in the sheets
>>2436100why so defensive? my point is that haz does not seek to save the left because he himself does not identify with leftism. marx was not a leftist either, for example. it is the anarchists who largely came from the french left, while marx as a communist was a critic against both anarchism and socialism.
>>2436103identity politics only seems to divide the public.
>>2436109i would advise you read the communist manifesto. first is the 1872 preface:
>Yet, when it was written, we could not have called it a socialist manifesto. By Socialists, in 1847, were understood, on the one hand the adherents of the various Utopian systems […] Thus, in 1847, socialism was a middle-class movement, communism a working-class movement.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/preface.htmhere is chapter 3, where various socialisms are criticised (reactionary, bourgeois and utopian socialisms):
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch03.htm >>2436091The short answer is it's always kinda sucked but
there is no real direction, while ML have a sort of tenuous "primacy" in the sense that we do not look too apprehensively toward the east (and the new world order(ing)*, ofc there are many other ways to define such ideological "struggle", such as it is), they are not the main culprit. But I am or I may be (I mean I know I am but what are you…) biased in this and that way.
>doesn't really seem that differentIt is not different, except in the ways it is.
the long answer is a confluence of things.
While "important" may not be the right word to use I do see real world struggle reflecting itself here. It's simply that the world has moved on from or ahead of a lot of petty "idpol". In this (war) economy there is no space for theoretical arguments concerning "unbearable whiteness" or whatever we had back in ye olde times.
Now things have become considerably darker. But as is well known, a crisis is an opportunity.
Well, I lost the thread there a bit, I don't know.
I'm not sure if it is considerably worse. It is different.
History marches on. With or without us, yes. But I have decided to stake my claim here.
It is what it is
It is
I
I yam
*the rise of the east, and decline of the west is the thing underpinning a lot of discussion. Whether it is order, disorder or something else entirely, of course, depends entirely on your perspective. Order through Chaos. Chaos through Order! Hail Anarchy!
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
>>2436115I agree mostly, it seems like the change in attitudes on the board is more a reflection of the change in attitudes across the broaded left and the new situation we all find ourselves in, rather than some sort of board moderation crisis, tho I'm sure that's gone downhill as well. The old mode of leftypol discourse is just not really that relevant anymore. I know I changed a lot in terms of political leanings and convictions with the changing times
I think it's pretty obvious that the main sort of split that causes discontent is the east west divide and to a n extent the difference in opinion on what is and is not deemed to be "aes"
>>2436126well we can agree to disagree.
to me, the left is historically based in the french revolution, which was a bourgeois revolution against the aristocracy (akin to the earlier english civil war and american revolution). the ideology of the enlightenment period was liberalism, with nationalism also taking precedence in the french revolution along the lines of class collaboration within the assembly of representatives (all bourgeois revolutions have in their time appointed a temporary dictator, where many americans even wanted washington to be a king, but he declined - the same as oliver cromwell, who instead called himself "lord protector" of england). later thinkers like fourier and saint-simon (1817) established very early socialist ideas (what saint-simon called "industrialism" and what fourier called "harmony"), while proudhon later established anarchism (1840) as a general rebuke to property (building from the earlier french thinker jean-jacque rousseau - 1755). the utopian socialists imagined a closed society which offered order and fairness, the same as in the anglo-american world, with robert owen (1810) and josiah warren (1826), who founded a commune in new harmony, indiana, where labour vouchers were put into effect (warren later became an anarchist). it was owen who appears to be earliest in all this and he is perhaps most influential, by fighting for an 8 hour work day. he also relates to the ricardian socialists of the 1820s and 30s, where david ricardo was a liberal economist who progressed the labour theory of value. the ricardian socialists also drew from the founder of liberalism, john locke (1690) who saw that labour is the basis of property - hence the later slogan of the lasalleans (social democrats), "labour is entitled to all it creates" (which marx criticises in "critique of the gotha program", 1875).
so in this basic history, the left springs from the early modern bourgeois revolutions (including the protestant reformation, beginning in 1517, then into the english civil war of the 1640s and glorious revolution of 1688), to the liberalism of locke, toward the enlightenment of the french (1750-1790), then to the socialism of the utopians (1810-1830) and further into anarchism (1840-). marxism never formally abridges itself to the left til later in the 20th century, where even-so, the "left-communists" of the west are constantly criticising the leninist project. so i see a clear distinction in place, where marxism and the left are at odds, hence the marxist criticism of leftist fanctions itself. i consider myself a leftist and not a marxist, so the case is clearer to me.
>>2436265i am bri'ish, so that makes things a bit easier to understand. i see a liberal streak in marx which gives him a minimal manner of redemption however:
>The press in general is a realisation of human freedom. Consequently, where is a press there is freedom of the press [.] Freedom is so much the essence of man that even its opponents implement it while combating its reality; they want to appropriate for, themselves as a most precious ornament what they have rejected as an ornament of human nature. No man combats freedom; at most he combats the freedom of others. Hence every kind of freedom has always existed, only at one time as a special privilege, at another as a universal right.https://marxists.architexturez.net/archive/marx/works/1842/free-press/ch04.htm>But, in general, the protective system of our day is conservative, while the free trade system is destructive. It breaks up old nationalities and pushes the antagonism of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie to the extreme point. In a word, the free trade system hastens the social revolution. It is in this revolutionary sense alone, gentlemen, that I vote in favor of free trade.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/01/09ft.htm#marx>The French Revolution, for example, abolished feudal property in favour of bourgeois property. The distinguishing feature of Communism is not the abolition of property generally, but the abolition of bourgeois property. But modern bourgeois private property is the final and most complete expression of the system of producing and appropriating products, that is based on class antagonisms, on the exploitation of the many by the few. In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property. We Communists have been reproached with the desire of abolishing the right of personally acquiring property as the fruit of a man’s own labour, which property is alleged to be the groundwork of all personal freedom, activity and independence. Hard-won, self-acquired, self-earned property! Do you mean the property of petty artisan and of the small peasant, a form of property that preceded the bourgeois form? There is no need to abolish that; the development of industry has to a great extent already destroyed it, and is still destroying it daily. Or do you mean the modern bourgeois private property?https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm>Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm>This sphere that we are deserting, within whose boundaries the sale and purchase of labour-power goes on, is in fact a very Eden of the innate rights of man. There alone rule Freedom, Equality, Property and Bentham. Freedom, because both buyer and seller of a commodity, say of labour-power, are constrained only by their own free will. They contract as free agents, and the agreement they come to, is but the form in which they give legal expression to their common will. Equality, because each enters into relation with the other, as with a simple owner of commodities, and they exchange equivalent for equivalent. Property, because each disposes only of what is his own. And Bentham, because each looks only to himself.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch06.htm>Accordingly, the individual producer receives back from society – after the deductions have been made – exactly what he gives to it. What he has given to it is his individual quantum of labor. For example, the social working day consists of the sum of the individual hours of work; the individual labor time of the individual producer is the part of the social working day contributed by him, his share in it. He receives a certificate from society that he has furnished such-and-such an amount of labor (after deducting his labor for the common funds); and with this certificate, he draws from the social stock of means of consumption as much as the same amount of labor cost. The same amount of labor which he has given to society in one form, he receives back in another.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm >>2436339That's why Im here
>>2436330All brits will be impaled on spikes along the coastline by the Irish as all of europe will hold hands and sing come out ye black n tans
>>2433569You are now breathing manually.
You are now blinking manually.
You are now swallowing saliva manually.
You are now manually holding your jaw up.
You’ve now realized there’s no comfortable spot in your mouth for your tongue.
You can see a bit of your nose between your eyes at all times.
Solar Plexus Clown Gliders.
WODigger.
Fuck you.
(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) >>2436393>Retarded, you're a white yourselfLmao tf? I don't give a fuck about that lol, what possible beef is it to me what anybody says about white people? It's never negatively impacted my life in the slightest being white, they might as well be making comments about people with brown eyes too.
>are you one of those self hating people that love getting cucked?Lmfao bit of a self report immediately going there. Are you that insecure?
>Racial solidarity between all races and ethinicities is the ideal, not racial animosity and hatred, I still wonder why mod let some form of "inverse racism" keeps going here where people can say "genocied the whites" that type of shit is exactly why /pol/tard hate leftist because they see this retarded preaching "kill the whitey" and frankly the /pol/tards have a point hereOh shit dude you're a terminal idealist. I might as well be talking to an ape lol
>>2435847Conservatives dominate the courts and are using State power regardless of any vaunted "checks and balances", they're doing what they can to specifically undermine social liberalism (defunding PBS, partnering more closely with PragerU, "anti-DEI" shit).
Everything I said was simply an objective fact.
>>2433569You are now breathing manually.
You are now blinking manually.
You are now swallowing saliva manually.
You are now manually holding your jaw up.
You’ve now realized there’s no comfortable spot in your mouth for your tongue.
You can see a bit of your nose between your eyes at all times.
Solar Plexus Clown Gliders.
WODigger.
Fuck you and your clique of mods.
>>2437440I am
an enemy of the state.
I am
all the things you hate.
>>2437338Ok then do it, like I don't care.
I would thank you for your help. But it is not about what you believe the solution is, is it?
It is about what you actually do in real life, in reality etc.
>>2435971>Someone put it well the last time I saw Pride stuff on the telly. "We are not proud of our identity, we are proud that we have struggled for so long">As an outsider, that is what makes it into a "force".>Existence is resistance. So in this they are "natural allies", in my book.Well this is an interesting thing because it's more ontological. Like one's being is necessarily oppositional. It sounds great as a slogan and I see it a lot but I don't share the sentiment. It seems more… religious? Theological? I'm not sure. For example, in relationship to queer politics, I see ACT UP in the 1990s engaging in
resistance as a social practice aimed at changing conditions. There was a whole praxis involved there with concrete demands. But just, like, being gay? No.
I do share some of the feeling though about "existence" but with a different philosophical twist, which is more like a Nietzschean act of self-affirmation. Like saying "yes" to yourself. I've exited a relationship that made me lie about who I am to others, to let others dictate who I'm "supposed" to be (heterosexual). That's not really fighting
against them, though. That would imply the opponent is even in the frame. It's really, truly a lack of care about what they think. Like if I didn't come out, I would've killed myself, so they'll have to kill me to put me back in it, and they haven't done that, so who cares what they think? And if they do, then bring it. There's no demand for tolerance or acceptance involved. Of course, I want to be accepted, but I accept myself. I don't care about irritating them, or "I'm going to show them" or spite anybody. It's not "I'm not proud of my identity, I'm proud of having struggled for so long." I actually do like myself and think being gay is good. It's just part of who I am.
>>2437618It's true if you say it in this overly general way. But there are many ways to be gay/queer.
Ok one group is experiencing genocide, the other not. Now if we zoom in on trans people in hostile countries especially, the picture changes.
Of course there are still countries today where simply being gay can be more than a little problematic.
>>2437617>they'll have to kill me to put me back in it, and they haven't done that, so who cares what they think?Not sure I quite get the causal link here. We don't just take into account people that are a potential danger. Ideally, we do not have relationships with such people at all but only people that are safe, I dunno, something might be lost in translation here.
>being gay is goodHere I strongly diverge. It is not good or bad or anything, it just is.
Like, an immutable characteristic, and so on. Beyond good and evil. It is fine to take pride in yourself. However my concern is that it makes it into some, I dunno, "self-othering". The implication seems to be that there is a norm (hetero, and reproductive activity) and "others".
And what we should say is, no they are equivalent.
Fuck normal. Not good, not bad.
This being my primary concern, to crush the very concept of normality.
>>2437637Sure but I wasn't comparing them in who's got it worse. I just wasn't and not everything's about that.
So for you maybe it's "case closed" but I want more,
I demand nuance.
I was not saying there is some equivalence between them. Except in the sense they are both statistically more "progressive" and have a higher chance to be against empire.
>>2437641>Sure but I wasn't comparing them in who's got it worseNeither was I, I was talking about the qualitative difference of their existence and the threat to it
I don't care about the rest, you're free to pontificate all you want tho
>>2437688NTA
Demons basically.
>>2435646It's not getting better from here.
I'm not fighting for Gorbachev but they should get some reinforcements, or "forcements".
>>2435971>Existence is resistance.There are queer women of color committing genocide in Gaza right now.
It doesn’t matter you liberal
'Ok then do it'
>>2438233I was thinking about a reply then I realized I don't even know how you think your post relates to mine or even the three words quoted by you. Beyond vague hostility, which is about the only thing that makes sense in your post.
So, go off I guess?
When you get down to it, does anything really matter? And who decides that?
>>2438262I really don't care (else I would insult you right now). I did not posit that. I asked "does anything matter? And who decides [what does]" this is important, if you can follow.
Besides that was part of my overall point (somewhere). It's not 2016 anymore, history is back on the menu. Liberalism is in its death throes but you are fallen out of time, fighting shadows, or echoes rather.
>>2437618>>2433541You were the chud sperging out about le gays and trans in /his/ aren't you?
What a pathetic loser you are
>>2437739There are some yeah, who are getting murdered for being born Palestinian
>>2437740Incomprehensible babble
>>2438544No, I have no idea what you are talking about
>>2434723>>2434662The kazakh protests started populist, but then an organized group of instigators attempted a coup. They were giving out meth "energy drinks" to people on the streets, and mysteriously cooking ladies showed up and started distributing food.
Likely sponsored by one of nazarbayevs relatives, one of whom maintains a wahabbi cell in the mointains
>>2438958That’s fair but also what the fuck do you even say when you hop in a tiktok live and disagree with US Maoids that race and settlerism is the “primary contradiction in the United States” and they’re enraged you said labor is so they literally do a hitler tier race check and confirm you actually are a black person like you claim and not a yakubian
untermenschen genetic reactionary (actual experience I’ve had)?
>>2438993Old Leftypol
>Read Marx!NuLeftypol
> race is the primary contradiction because white people made it so >>2435650>/leftpol/ was shitheap with basically no moderation getting raided by /pol/.Apparently, Caballo was the guy that founded /leftpol/. When you see how dysfunctional this place is, it all makes sense.
>>2438153>It's not getting better from here.I'm just going to enjoy the few good threads here while I can. After this place dies from malign neglect, the mods here should consider getting jobs with Meta. Given how they let Nazi shit stay up for days, they'd fit right in.
>>2439245>You have to specifically visit leftypol to encounter retardation par excellence like "anti-campism"It's literally nothing but trying to portray third-campism as this shiny new untested position, as though that isn't the consensus of the Western Left.
>>2435604You are an idiot.
/leftypol/ continues to be an anonymous *chan imageboard. This is a form, a structural material basis that influences everything on top of it. There is nearly zero barrier to entry and the cover of anonymity. It is openly a derivative of /pol/, in fact a reaction to 8/pol/. Anyone who doesn't want dirtbag shitposting can and should go to one of the many alternative forums!
>>2435599You are also an idiot, comrade.
/leftypol/ was, and debatably is, a valuable part in the dirtbag left movement despite not being organized nor and organization. It pulled people from the growing /pol/ circles and resulting Nazi propaganda, same with gamergate. There are plenty of former fash here who were recruited not to us but to the labor movement through /leftypol/.
___
also, fuck oldmods (~2020-present). There were plenty of anons explaining why what they were doing was counterproductive and they did it anyway. This place could have remained a factory.
No, this isn't about 'the split', history has objectively proven both sides had actual,
actual god-complex schizos and arrogant idiots among them, and each side failed to cast them out in time.
>>2441055>actual (emphasis) godAnd who might that be?
Just curious. Oh so curious
I won't even ask if you are qualified or mention that this almost always hides liberal incompetence (well, my oppo must be this and that, where is the diff between you and the "right-variety" of slanderers, please? May I see it?
Whoops guess I mentioned it a bit. But trust me this, this is tame.
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