Too many self-proclaimed communists in the West clutch their copies of The Communist Manifesto while hurling criticism at China, oblivious to what communism actually demands in practice. They romanticize a pure, abstract revolution—classless, stateless, perfect—yet fail to grapple with the messy reality of building socialism in a world dominated by imperialist capital. China’s path, with its state-led development and strategic market integration, isn’t a betrayal of communism but a pragmatic response to global capitalism’s chokehold. These armchair Marxists ignore how China lifted millions from poverty while navigating a hostile world order, instead whining about “authoritarianism” through a lens tinted by Western propaganda. True communism isn’t dogmatic purity; it’s dialectical, adapting to material conditions. Criticizing China without understanding its historical and geopolitical context isn’t revolutionary—it’s just posturing that serves the status quo.
>>2447703>>2447701Honest question.
What is commodity production?
Please don't give me a book, just give me the definition.
>>2447889>Please don't give me a bookStop being illiterate uygha
Commodity production generally refers to society-wide production processes of goods and services that take human labor as input and output a marketable good/service. This is not a strict definition as material observations are not mathematical properties so I hope you don't use this as a gotcha in some language game
>>2447910Jesus Christ.
So many word.s
I have to read all that?
>>2447911It's just an excerpt from Capital Volume I, alternatively you can read the simplified version made by Carlos Cafiero (anarchist-communist) approved by Marx himself with a letter of thanks.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/cafiero/1879/summary-of-capital.htmAnd alternatively even to that - you don't need to read anything straightforward, but continue internet arguments until the entire contents are spoon-fed to you by strangers bit by bit. Eventually you might reach a breaking point in this place and end up a disgruntled "not-a-Marxist" Marxist who still ends up butchering Marx whilst claiming to defend his legacy, despite there being some apparent inconsistencies in thought.
An award goes for whoever can reconcile the split of the Ist international and it could be yours if you think really hard and read a lot.
>>2447660This is, yet again, dengoid cope raging at anyone holding the slightest standard.
You keep repeating that they're advancing towards communism, we say that they obviously aren't by looking at their economy and their society (which is going anywhere but towards communism) then you get mad and start throwing random shit at the wall that is completely unrelated to the question at hand.
They lifted millions out of poverty? A billion? Who the fuck cares, might as well be a trillion while we're at it. The path towards communism is made by the abolition of the relations that fuel the capitalist system, and none of the point you (or 99% of the dengoids) raise are even slightly related to that.
It's also funny that you say that "they had to do it! they had to do it!" while the reforms were started when the USSR and the communist block was still around; and they actively helped the west destroy it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone (this is but one example, I just had the link at hand)
> Criticizing China without understanding its historical and geopolitical context isn’t revolutionaryThis is just recycled japanese posturing from the Meji restoration onwards. Deflecting any criticism with vague notions of "misunderstanding" and supposed uniqueness incomprehensible from anyone who (casually) doesn't agree with them.
Garbage
>>2447924I just want a simple answer.
Why is it so hard to explain a concept I see so much being used by commies. Bordiga fans have even shit up 4chan.
>Stalin was wrong because he promoted commodity production<No Stalin was promoting socialist commodity production which is goodMe: What the hell is commodity production in the context of communism?
The best I could do:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Marxism/comments/fq5bu7/what_is_commodity_production_and_why_is_it_bad/ >>2447942>Bordiga fans have even shit up 4chan.Lol good on them, they're the bastions of the real movement, always in the belly of the beast (picrel).
>Me: What the hell is commodity production in the context of communism?In the context of communism it's a characteristic of capitalism. Stalin was a bourgeoisie bastard anti-communist who killed all the good old bolsheviks and was ultimately the gravedigger of the revolution.
OP is a fag and only wants chinese sex robots
fpbp
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>>2447942Don't take Bordiga as gospel, his contributions are highly controversial and in no way representative of most Marxists. The real answer is that commodity production is a feature of capitalism, but when the international revolution failed, the so-called socialist states retreated into national-developmentist countries. They were kinda forced to do commodity production since these socialist states started out technologically backwards in comparison to Europe and communism requires developed means of production. The original idea was to weather the storm until other nations had their own revolutions.
This is ultimately a question of what socialism means. If it's a dictatorship of the proletariat (position held by most Marxist-Leninists today and of old), if it's a transient stage of development towards communism, or something else. Leftcoms (i.e. Bordigists) don't consider socialism as something distinct from international communism afaik so to them calling these states with capitalistic characteristics "socialism" is akin to blasphemy
>Will it be possible for private property to be abolished at one stroke? No, no more than existing forces of production can at one stroke be multiplied to the extent necessary for the creation of a communal society. In all probability, the proletarian revolution will transform existing society gradually and will be able to abolish private property only when the means of production are available in sufficient quantity.
<Friedrich Engels, Principles of Communism, 1847
>To my mind, the so-called “socialist society” is not anything immutable. Like all other social formations, it should be conceived in a state of constant flux and change. Its crucial difference from the present order consists naturally in production organized on the basis of common ownership by the nation of all means of production. To begin this reorganization tomorrow, but performing it gradually, seems to me quite feasible. That our workers are capable of it is borne out by their many producer and consumer cooperatives which, whenever they're not deliberately ruined by the police, are equally well and far more honestly run than the bourgeois stock companies.
<Engels, Letter to Otto Von Boenigk In Breslau, August 21, 1890
>Philosophers have hitherto only interpreted the world in various ways; the point is to change it.
<Karl Marx, Theses on Feuerbach, 1845
>[…] it is only possible to achieve real liberation in the real world by employing real means, that slavery cannot be abolished without the steam-engine and the mule and spinning-jenny, serfdom cannot be abolished without improved agriculture, and that, in general, people cannot be liberated as long as they are unable to obtain food and drink, housing and clothing in adequate quality and quantity. “Liberation” is an historical and not a mental act, and it is brought about by historical conditions, the development of industry, commerce, agriculture, the conditions of intercourse.
<Karl Marx, The German Ideology, 1845-1846
>Between capitalist and communist society there lies the period of the revolutionary transformation of the one into the other. Corresponding to this is also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat.
<Karl Marx, Critique of the Gotha Programme, 1875
>“No social order is ever destroyed before all the productive forces for which it is sufficient have been developed, and new superior relations of production never replace older ones before the material conditions for their existence have matured within the framework of the old society."
<Karl Marx, from the preface to A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy (1859)
>The pure socialists' ideological anticipations remain untainted by existing practice. They do not explain how the manifold functions of a revolutionary society would be organized, how external attack and internal sabotage would be thwarted, how bureaucracy would be avoided, scarce resources allocated, policy differences settled, priorities set, and production and distribution conducted. Instead, they offer vague statements about how the workers themselves will directly own and control the means of production and will arrive at their own solutions through creative struggle. No surprise then that the pure socialists support every revolution except the ones that succeed.
<Michael Parenti, Blackshirts and Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism, 1997
>Socialism means the abolition of classes. The dictatorship of the proletariat has done all it could to abolish classes. But classes cannot be abolished at one stroke. And classes still remain and will remain in the era of the dictatorship of the proletariat. The dictatorship will become unnecessary when classes disappear. Without the dictatorship of the proletariat they will not disappear. Classes have remained, but in the era of the dictatorship of the proletariat every class has undergone a change, and the relations between the classes have also changed. The class struggle does not disappear under the dictatorship of the proletariat; it merely assumes different forms. Under capitalism the proletariat was an oppressed class, a class which had been deprived of the means of production, the only class which stood directly and completely opposed to the bourgeoisie, and therefore the only one capable of being revolutionary to the very end. Having overthrown the bourgeoisie and conquered political power, the proletariat has become the ruling class; it wields state power, it exercises control over means of production already socialized; it guides the wavering and intermediary elements and classes; it crushes the increasingly stubborn resistance of the exploiters. All these are specific tasks of the class struggle, tasks which the proletariat formerly did not and could not have set itself. The class of exploiters, the landowners and capitalists, has not disappeared and cannot disappear all at once under the dictatorship of the proletariat. The exploiters have been smashed, but not destroyed. They still have an inter national base in the form of international capital, of which they are a branch. They still retain certain means of production in part, they still have money, they still have vast social connections. Because they have been defeated, the energy of their resistance has increased a hundred and a thousandfold. The “art” of state, military and economic administration gives them a superiority, and a very great superiority, so that their importance is incomparably greater than their numerical proportion of the population. The class struggle waged by the overthrown exploiters against the victorious vanguard of the exploited, i.e., the proletariat, has become incomparably more bitter. And it cannot be otherwise in the case of a revolution, unless this concept is replaced (as it is by all the heroes of the Second International) by reformist illusions.
<Lenin, Economics And Politics In The Era Of The Dictatorship Of The Proletariat, 30 October, 1919
>We made the mistake of deciding to go over directly to communist production and distribution. We thought that under the surplus-food appropriation system the peasants would provide us with the required quantity of grain, which we could distribute among the factories and thus achieve communist production and distribution […] brief experience convinced us that that line was wrong, that it ran counter to what we had previously written about the transition from capitalism to socialism, namely, that it would be impossible to bypass the period of socialist accounting and control in approaching even the lower stage of communism […] our theoretical literature has been definitely stressing the necessity for a prolonged, complex transition through socialist accounting and control from capitalist society (and the less developed it is the longer the transition will take) to even one of the approaches to communist society. […] Get down to business, all of you! You will have capitalists beside you, including foreign capitalists, concessionaires and leaseholders. They will squeeze profits out of you amounting to hundreds per cent; they will enrich themselves, operating alongside of you. Let them. Meanwhile you will learn from them the business of running the economy, and only when you do that will you be able to build up a communist republic. Since we must necessarily learn quickly, any slackness in this respect is a serious crime. And we must undergo this training, this severe, stern and sometimes even cruel training, because we have no other way out.
<Lenin, The New Economic Policy, 1921
>To make things even clearer, let us first of all take the most concrete example of state capitalism. Everybody knows what this example is. It is Germany. Here we have “the last word” in modern large-scale capitalist engineering and planned organization, subordinated to Junker-bourgeois imperialism. Cross out the words in italics, and in place of the militarist, Junker, bourgeois, imperialist state put also a state, but of a different social type, of a different class content; a Soviet state, that is, a proletarian state, and you will have the sum total of the conditions necessary for socialism. Socialism is inconceivable without large-scale capitalist engineering based on the latest discoveries of modern science. It is inconceivable without planned state organization, which keeps tens of millions of people to the strictest observance of a unified standard in production and distribution. We Marxists have always spoken of this, and it is not worth while wasting two seconds talking to people who do not understand even this (anarchists and a good half of the Left Socialist-Revolutionaries). At the same time socialism is inconceivable unless the proletariat is the ruler of the state. This also is ABC. And history (which nobody, except Menshevik blockheads of the first order, ever expected to bring about “complete” socialism smoothly, gently, easily and simply) has taken such a peculiar course that it has given birth in 1918 to two unconnected halves of socialism existing side by side like two future chickens in the single shell of international imperialism.
<Lenin, “Left-Wing” Childishness, 1918
>For socialism is merely the next step forward from state-capitalist monopoly. Or, in other words, socialism is merely state-capitalist monopoly which is made to serve the interests of the whole people and has to that extent ceased to be capitalist monopoly.
<Lenin, The Impending Catastrophe and How to Combat It, Section Titled: Can We Go Forward If We Fear To Advance Towards Socialism?, 1917
>The state capitalism, which is one of the principal aspects of the New Economic Policy, is, under Soviet power, a form of capitalism that is deliberately permitted and restricted by the working class. Our state capitalism differs essentially from the state capitalism in countries that have bourgeois governments in that the state with us is represented not by the bourgeoisie, but by the proletariat, who has succeeded in winning the full confidence of the peasantry.
<Lenin, To the Russian Colony in North America, 14th November, 1922
>So, to build socialism it is necessary to develop the productive forces. Poverty is not socialism. To uphold socialism, a socialism that is to be superior to capitalism, it is imperative first and foremost to eliminate poverty. True, we are building socialism, but that doesn’t mean that what we have achieved so far is up to the socialist standard. Not until the middle of the next century, when we have reached the level of the moderately developed countries, shall we be able to say that we have really built socialism and to declare convincingly that it is superior to capitalism. We are advancing towards that goal.
<Deng Xiaoping, To Uphold Socialism We Must Eliminate Poverty, 26th April, 1987
>A house may be large or small; as long as the neighboring houses are likewise small, it satisfies all social requirement for a residence. But let there arise next to the little house a palace, and the little house shrinks to a hut. The little house now makes it clear that its inmate has no social position at all to maintain, or but a very insignificant one; and however high it may shoot up in the course of civilization, if the neighboring palace rises in equal or even in greater measure, the occupant of the relatively little house will always find himself more uncomfortable, more dissatisfied, more cramped within his four walls. An appreciable rise in wages presupposes a rapid growth of productive capital. Rapid growth of productive capital calls forth just as rapid a growth of wealth, of luxury, of social needs and social pleasures. Therefore, although the pleasures of the labourer have increased, the social gratification which they afford has fallen in comparison with the increased pleasures of the capitalist, which are inaccessible to the worker, in comparison with the stage of development of society in general. Our wants and pleasures have their origin in society; we therefore measure them in relation to society; we do not measure them in relation to the objects which serve for their gratification. Since they are of a social nature, they are of a relative nature.
<Karl Marx, Wage Labour and Capital (1847), Chapter 6
>The thoughts of every piece of private property as such are at least turned against richer private property in the form of envy and the desire to level everything down; hence these feelings in fact constitute the essence of competition. The crude communist is merely the culmination of this envy and desire to level down on the basis of a preconceived minimum. It has a definite, limited measure. How little this abolition of private property is a true appropriation is shown by the abstract negation of the entire world of culture and civilization, and the return to the unnatural simplicity of the poor, unrefined man who has no needs and who has not yet even reached the stage of private property, let along gone beyond it. (For crude communism) the community is simply a community of labor and equality of wages, which are paid out by the communal capital, the community as universal capitalist. Both sides of the relation are raised to an unimaginary universality – labor as the condition in which everyone is placed and capital as the acknowledged universality and power of the community. […] The first positive abolition of private property – crude communism – is therefore only a manifestation of the vileness of private property trying to establish itself as the positive community. […] By reducing the worker's needs to the paltriest minimum necessary to maintain his physical existence and by reducing his activity to the most abstract mechanical movement. In so doing, the political economist declares that man has no other needs, either in the sphere of activity or in that of consumption. For even this life he calls human life and human existence. By taking as his standard – his universal standard, in the sense that it applies to the mass of men – the worst possible state of privation which life (existence) can know. He turns the worker into a being with neither needs nor senses and turn the worker's activity into a pure abstraction from all activity. Hence any luxury that the worker might enjoy is reprehensible, and anything that goes beyond the most abstract need – either in the form of passive enjoyment or active expression – appears to him as a luxury.
<Karl Marx, Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts, Third Manuscript, Private Property and Labor (1844)
>>2448054What more is there to say (to them)?
If they haven't learned by now, statistically, they never will. A phenomena in no way hidden or difficult to discern.
>>2448629Always has.
I can find more insight in the "apolitical", however defined. I am only still here bc I have become too good at "ideological critique". It is child's play to deal with these "left(oid) critics".
It is also, let me tell you, a fundamentally simple thing. One merely has to follow the Way.
>>2448634I am not doing that. I don't care. It's your spiritual health, I really don't give a fuck. In these terms I have built a wall, metaphorically. I want soldiers, fighters for a better world, whether you are in good spirits, in good health or not. One might say, I understand the need for brutal practicality. It was simply what popped up when looking for "ideal attained in the future". Point being
Eh doesn't matter.
Obscurantism it is not. Spirituality(-related), yes. It is all put in simple terms, etc.
>>2448636Fine. What metaphor?
Oh, it really doesn't matter.
>>2448639I mean, like half-half.
Point is do what you want.
>>2448665That's because the OP doesn't make sense and isn't really valid
>>2448659Futurism is stupid, it's like a cherry on top, new York looks futuristic too if futurism = lights and shitty steel towers
>>2447660Leftcoms and other anticommunists tend to forget that there is commodity production and commodity production. Commodity production under capitalism refers to
generalized commodity prodcution. It is generalized, because labor-power also reproduces and is produced as a commodity i.e. the reproduction/production of labor-power is informed by market dynamics. This is possible because there is a reserve army of labor, because there is not full employment, because workers have to compete between themselves to able to work to be able to live.
On the other hand, historic commodity production under socialist states is
not generalized. Labor-power does not reproduce and produce itself as a commodity because there is no labor market, because there is no unemployment, because there is no reserve army of labor. In the case of real-socialist states (not market socialist states) there is also no (or a very limited) market, and production is organized according to a plan. There was no for-profit production under real-socialism. Even under historic and existing market socialism there is a large state-sector which operates according to plan for more necessary goods. The PRC still has five-year plans, though a bit different from the usual pyatiletka. Even money under a socialist state loses its commodity nature, it just becomes a book-keeping signifier. You can't speculate with the Chinese yuan and you could not speculate on the Soviet ruble.
To paraphrase Engels, calling the same thing different names does not change the thing. Equivalently, calling different things the same does not make them equal. You have to look at the social relations hidden behind social phenomena.
>>2448698Let me also add this, because I see many people throwing around the word 'state-capitalism' around without actually understanding what it referse to.
>The two most important processes of capitalist development are concentration and centralisation of capital; they are often confused but must be clearly distinguished. … By concentration we understand the increase of capital that is due to the capitalisation of the surplus value produced by that capital; under centralisation we understand the joining together of various individual capital units which thus form a new larger unit. … both processes, concentration and centralisation, influence one another. A great concentration of capital accelerates the absorption of small-scale enterprises by large-scale ones; conversely, centralisation aids the increase of individual capital units and so accelerates the process of concentration.
>The primary form in the process of concentration is concentration of capital in an individual enterprise. This form predominated up to the last quarter of the nineteenth century. The accumulation of social capital is here expressed in the accumulation of the capital of individual entrepreneurs who oppose one another as competitors. The development of joint stock companies, which made it possible to use the capital of a considerable number of individual entrepreneurs, and which radically undermined the principle of individual ownership of enterprises, created the prerequisites for large monopolistic associations of entrepreneurs. Concentration of capital assumed a new form here, namely, the form of concentration in trusts. Capital accumulation no more increased the capital of individual producers; it turned into a means of increasing the capital of entrepreneurs' organisations. The tempo of accumulation increased to an extraordinary degree. Huge masses of surplus value, far exceeding the needs of an insignificant group of capitalists, are converted into capital to begin a new cycle. But even here the development does not stop. The individual production branches are in various ways knit together into one collective body, organised on a large scale. Finance capital seizes the entire country in an iron grip. "National economy" turns into one gigantic combined trust whose partners are the financial groups and the state. Such formations we call state capitalist trusts. (n.b. italics mine)
>When competition has finally reached its highest stage, when it has become competition between state capitalist trusts, then the use of state power, and the possibilities connected with it, begin to play a very large part. The state apparatus has always served as a tool in the hands of the ruling classes of its country, and it has always acted as their "defender and protector" in the world market; at no time, however, did it have the colossal importance that it has in the epoch of finance capital and imperialist politics. With the formation of state capitalist trusts, competition is being almost entirely shifted to foreign countries; obviously, the organs of the struggle that is to be waged abroad, primarily state power, must therefore grow tremendously. The significance for capitalism of high tariffs, which increase the fighting capacity of the state capitalist trust in the world market, must increase still more; the various forms of "protecting national industry" become more pronounced; state orders are placed only with "national" firms; income is guaranteed to all sorts of enterprises, which present great risks but are "useful" from a social point of view; the activities of "foreigners" are hampered in various ways.
>With the growth of the importance of state power, its inner structure also changes. The state becomes more than ever before an "executive committee of the ruling classes." It is true that state power always reflected the interests of the "upper strata," 7) but inasmuch as the top layer itself was a more or less amorphous mass, the organised state apparatus faced an unorganised class (or classes) whose interests it embodied. Matters are totally different now. The state apparatus not only embodies the interests of the ruling classes in general, but also their collectively expressed will. It faces no more atomised members of the ruling classes, but their organisations. Thus the government is de facto transformed into a "committee" elected by the representatives of entrepreneurs' organisations, and it becomes the highest guiding force of the state capitalist trust. This is one of the main causes of the so-called crises of parliamentarism. In former times parliament served as an arena for the struggle among various factions of the ruling groups (bourgeoisie and landowners, various strata of the bourgeoisie among themselves, etc.). Finance capital has consolidated almost all of their varieties into one "solid reactionary mass" united in many centralised organisations.https://www.marxists.org/archive/bukharin/works/1917/imperial/ch. 10, 11
Does this describe China? No. 'State-capitalism' as Lenin used it to refer to the NEP, is incorrect. State-socialism is the correct description of the NEP, and of the Reform and Opening Up.
>>2448680At what point do I argue for primitivism? Futurism.is retarded as an idea because it's built on aesthetics and current-day fantasies about the future. The goal shouldn't be futurism, it should be an egalitarian society without classes or money, whether that is with or without shiny tall buildings with led gamer lights is completely besides the point.
You can call me ultra all you want but at least I do not base my worldview upon fantasies with a complete and utter disregard for the global working class.
Nobody on this entire website is arguing that cities in China or the DPRK are fake, having cities that are better then Detroit isn't a high bar to cross. But ofcourse every critique will be disregarded as western liberal nonsense because you don't actually want to do anything, you want a new world to drop out of the sky without doing anything.
>>2448743Where are their socialist states?
Why should anyone listen to failures, also?
>>2448744>Where are their socialist states?<waaah I want my socialism naaaowwwwThis is the very same westoid logic OP claims to be against.
>Why should anyone listen to failures, also?This is straight up an anti-communist argument and highlights an idealist view of history.
>>2448747>a bunch of redwashed narachists who failed as much as regular anarchists have opinions on china, sit down and listenYou call me an idealist while upholding ideas with no demonstrable real world success.
There's already socialism naaaaooooow, it's in china.
>>2448722The visual evidence of China's development is reduced to just aesthetic considerations by two sides of the same western coin, one argues that it's all fake and mocked up to pretend like China is surpassing the west in terms of development which is impossible for a less wealthy nation without fakery, the other argues that it's all real but clearly indicative of China's hyper-capitalism since it didn't happen in the 1960s under Mao and only after Dengism and thus there's nothing to learn from sell-outs pretending to be socialist.
Both are united by a hissy fit being thrown over the aesthetics of China, that ultimately the futuristic landscapes are solely intended to obscure some kind of truth that either it's not real capitalism or it's not socialist, so we just need to bury our heads in the sand and try to ignore the obvious reality that socialist construction in China is producing results unthinkable to either dogmas.
I accuse ultras of arguing for primitivism because they seemingly want a clean break, by which Communism is achieved in an under-developed rebel village and thus every step between that point and the opening of their first fusion reactor can be entirely attributed to orthodoxy. That supporting any development not made in the conditions of pure Communism is an "utter disregard for the global working class", when that isn't supported by any historical development (i.e Capitalism wasn't fully established
before the industrialisation it was built from started under Feudalism) and comes across as insane.
If Moffin' does his
>Billions raised out of poverty in a single lifetime, but at what cost if it can't all be attributed to orthodoxy?thing in the real world, people will think he is insane. If you see hospitals, schools, homes in China be created at rates never hitherto seen in history, but you tell people there's nothing to see here and it's just capitalism and fuck you for being interested about that over othordoxy apologise to the world's working class NOW, people are just going to hear you saying "true" socialism could never achieve any of this and only capitalism could.
China's development is socialist development, "nooooo it's authoritarian communism producing hollow buildings with slave labour" and "noooo it's authoritarian capitalism producing lies and leading socialists astray with its glitz" are equally retarded attempts but all westerners to avoid looking at what they're seeing.
>>2448762The revolution is already happening, retard.
You either join it, or die on the other side of the barricades, hoping to build your own parallel "real" revolution with idealism and white man's burden.
>>2448761I think the wage-labor relationship is enough to show that capital (and capitalism) exists in China. Or a type of it. But that doesn't
necessarily imply much of an argument against it. After all, China had been a highly undeveloped country, it's still a developing country, and there are probably certain conditions that forced the revolutionaries there to aim for something more realistic. Which is okay. There are certain things I like about their government from what I've seen. They seem overall more rational. I don't think there's any master plan, but at least there is some kind of a plan. It's not just impulses. My government just bullies its way around and either causes damage or nothing worthwhile happens.
But I don't think the situation for working people is that different from the average. People are dealing with a lot of the same issues as we are in my country. People going "I'm in the revolution…" like in that meme have been appearing more and more bizarre to me. But at some point, whichever road China chooses ultimately has to be up to the Chinese. That's just the way you have to slice it.
>>2448789The west is going to war with china, dumbass.
How did germany become briefly socialist immediately after being nazi? They attacked the USSR.
If you don't want socialism to come like it did to germany, destroy your bourgeoisie from the inside.
>>2448795> Any revolution here is going to mean war with ChinaPure essense of western leftism.
Westoids have been saying shit like that for a century, "the real revolution is going to war against the USSR", etc.
Worst thing is, the are succeeding. Why? Because they ARE the western bourgeoisie, and their lackeys.
>>2448845And that is exactly what they would do if politically expedient, as insane as it is.
Don't you just love war propaganda?
>>2448846the idf's been using DJI drones to patrol settlements and do drone strikes since 2018 lol
>>2448851>>2448845what's the point of blind support for a supposably socialist superpower that's also one of the richest countries in the world if they're not even capable of stopping one of their corporations from aiding a genocide? i thought capital was supposed to work for the state not the other way around lmao
>>2448905>Implying israel needs to "stoke fear" like this to get more weapons from daddy america Lmao it's to dissuade China from further supporting hamas through Iran, basically a "we're onto you, you better back off" kind of message to the Chinese
>Le telegraph I just looked for the headline, imagine paying a subscription to the telegraph. Here's another rando article about it
https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2024/02/06/chinese-weapons-with-the-qassam-brigades-facing-israel/ >>2448944Why must you lie and project like this anon? The article clearly states that the weapons are likely from multiple sources. Assad isn't even mentioned at all lol
< Many videos were seen of the Al-Qassam Brigades using a Chinese M99 rifle, which is a 12.7 mm anti-materiel rifle. Its length is one and a half meters, and it weighs 12 kilograms. Its magazine can hold five rounds, and its range reaches 1,700 metres within two seconds. The China Arabic account published on the “it was re-exported via Iran”.
<Hamas obtained quantities of it from several different sources, along with thousands of Russian, Chinese, and even North Korean assault rifles, whether from Syria, Iraq, or Libya. The weapons flowed into Gaza after the fall of the Gaddafi regime in Libya through smuggling networks, according to previous press reports.
<Hamas has also used Russian-made Kornet anti-tank missiles, and laser-guided missiles have proven effective against Israeli Merkava tanks, as well as an anti-tank missile system called the “BULSAE”, which is so effective in confronting Israeli vehicles and armored vehicles >>2448892Seething at China for not using its claimed omnipresent superpower status to benevolently change the world to how they, you, or I would like, will never make them comparable to the states that are actively spending tax money on buying not just weapons for Israel to use in Gaza, but also to run endless campaigns to manufacture consent for the genocide and passing laws outlawing criticism for Israel for those who continue to at least verbally express they're non-consenting.
I'm reasonably sure shitspasm that you live in such a nation, while I woudn't charge you with singlehandedly creating a movement to overthrow your own genocide supporting government, nor even risk prison by not paying your taxes in protest, I will say spending your time here trying to claim that China's inaction (as anons have pointed out, is not exclusive to Israel) is even notable compared to the West's actual actions in regards to Gaza is why you're a bad person.
>>2448986>This is a thread about China so this is what we're talking about. And that really twisted his arm to make such a point?
>opportunismIt's the prime directive essentially. You might not like that China tries not to play god, but even with its recent attainment of superpower status in the western psyche, China shouldn't expected to be a panacea for the western left's complete lack of power.
That's just arrogance to expect all that China has done to build "Socialism with Chinese Characteristics" was to just be commandeered by the most impotent western leftist movements in history to fix their problems and it is our problem that there is a genocide going on in Gaza and it's our fault it's still continuing. Saying
>ah my tax money is going to fund genocide and my government won't listen to me… but neither will the Chinese government! So, they're both bad as each other, I will rage against both online in equal measureis a frankly pathetic attitude that absolutely explains the situation we're in.
>>2447660I took a break from the site, and as soon as I come back, I get a big fat ugly reminder of why I left. We've had like 200 different iterations of this thread, and they all go the exact same way: everyone talks past eachother, the thread reaches bump limit, and then some faggot starts the cycle over again somewhere between a few hours and a few days later.
The kind of people that post in these threads aren't going to be convinced of anything; they already have their minds made up, and are seeking to propagandize. The kind of people that are both genuinely open to having their minds changed and are serious enough about the cause to take meaningful action are also not going to have their minds changed by a thread like this because, again, there's no meaningful arguments being made ITT, and they're going to be smart enough and serious enough to recognize that fact.
I had a paragraph here detailing where I stand on the issue, but I deleted it, because I don't want to further perpetuate this giant hatefuck circlejerk. This is all an enormous waste of time, and there's more pleasent ways to waste ones time than arguing with stubborn retards on the internet.
>>2449064>China shouldn't expected to be a panacea for the western left's complete lack of powerStrawman argument. This isn't about the Western left, it's about whether you believe in the concept of internationalism and whether communists (especially communist governments) have a duty to it. If you don't believe in internationalism then just say so, but then don't complain if socialists in other countries don't go to bat for China, the third world, or anywhere outside of their own borders. If you do believe in nationalism then you should at least recognize China's total failure to adhere to it. This is what I'm talking about when I say that defences of Chinese foreign policy are usually just deflection. Your argument essentially boils down to "the Western left sucks therefore China has no internationalist duty". Its a total non-sequitur.
>So, they're both bad as each otherNot what I said and not what I believe. China is bt far the most progressive of the major world powers, and I think their rise and growth into superpower status is unquestionably a good thing. I would much rather see them take a leading role than the US. That doesn't mean they are flawless and beyond criticism.
>>2449004>Because the western leftist’s “opposition” to Zionism is purely performative and purposefully ineffectual and always has beenWhat kind of nonsense accusation is that? The Western left is impotent because the entire Western state and ideological apparatus is against them, they have no resources, and their governments are not responsive to popular pressure of any kind. Accusing them of being "purposefully" impotent is based on nothing and something you're just saying to dismiss criticism. Tell me, why does the impotence of the Western left justify Chinese condemnation of the Al Aqsa Flood operation? Why does it justify the sale of military drones to the IDF by Chinese companies, or the continued maintenance of diplomatic and trade ties between China and Israel? Once again, nobody can ever defend these policies on their own terms. Are you capable of defending them without bringing up the Western left, but simply telling me why these policies are good for the socialist movement, the Palestinian cause, or humanity in general?
>>2448775How's that relevant? The key for both cases is the need of capital to expand the markets. Right now China has no need for violent expansion and is simply following the standard capitalist practice of outcompeting others.
>>2448784> The revolution is already happening, retard.picrel
>>2448046Well I suppose yankeland, the uk and the entirety of europe have been socialist for the past 200 years or so then!
>>2448629Oh I'm so so terribly sorry for putting the bare minimum of scrutiny into what they're doing! Should have shoved my head in the sand and trusted the plan, that has never not worked before!
>>2449170>Strawman argument.So was
<Nobody ever seems to be able to come up with a reason why China's relationship with Israel is positive or why we should approve of it,>This isn't about the Western leftOf course it is when Israel itself, let alone the genocide it is committing, is a creation of the west.
>it's about whether you believe in the concept of internationalism and whether communists (especially communist governments) have a duty to it. Internationalism is not being the world police but good this time.
>but then don't complain if socialists in other countries don't go to bat for China, the third world, or anywhere outside of their own bordersYou're on to hypotheticals now?
>Your argument essentially boils down to "the Western left sucks therefore China has no internationalist duty". Its a total non-sequitur.Is it though? I thought I was making the point that it's a problem of western creation and thus it's the responsibility of western leftists above all else to solve, acting as though it's more China's duty to solve because that's being "internationalist" is a cop out.
>Not what I said and not what I believeYou said
<Go to the US or Palestine threads and you'll see the same people attacking the West for its support of Israel.As though that has any relevance at all.
<That doesn't mean they are flawless and beyond criticism. Another strawman argument, because I haven't actually said that I wouldn't support China getting involved nor that I agree with economic and diplomatic neutrality, just that I can understand its ambitions for building Socialism with *Chinese* Characteristics doesn't include using its current position to replace the west as the world police to solve global problems that are created by the west.
Ultimately "internationalism" as you and others have described is just passing the buck, counting China as one of the nations in some way responsible for the genocide, that equally it could have been you or Xi to intervene but since China has more power… well logic would dictate that's more on them than yourself, wouldn't it? So it's inaction and neutrality is anything but, right?
When history one day paints me as a passive standby-er to genocide and fascism as so many Germans of the 1930s and 40s rightly are, I like to think I will at least be brave enough to accept that without whimperingly saying
>B-but China didn't do anything either! They had a duty to stop what my taxes pay for! >>2449170>The Western left is impotent because the entire Western state and ideological apparatus is against themas opposed to all the countries that had revolutions with no opposition or problems
oh wait, those weren't real socialism anyway, so I guess there's nothing left to do but to watch the genocide while demanding that other people do something about it
this whole discourse is actually covertly zionist because it is premised on the notion that "israel" is a standalone entity and not just an extension of the US
the answer to "why doesn't china do something in relation to [israel]" is the same as to "why doesn't china do something in relation to [usa]"
it's a manifestation of the westoid's desire to distance themselves from what israel is doing by pretending it's an actual, separate country, and not just an outpost for the westoid's empire. china is just collateral damage
>>2449180> following the standard capitalist practice of outcompeting others.Absolute retards on this site believe the bourgeoisie conception of how capitalism works, and not that of marx's
THERE HAS NEVER BEEN CAPITALISM WITHOUT VIOLENT EXPANSION
the imagine of "normal" capitalism you have in your head, of le peaceful market competition, NEVER EXISTED IT'S A BOURGEOIS LIE CAPITALISM HAS NEVER WORKED THAT WAY
READ MARX
>>2449229It's covertly pro-western in general, imagine thinking "internationalism" as a concept means you can reasonably think
>although it may have been my politicians that created the issue and my taxes that are funding its continuance, I don't see why that means it's any more my problem to solve than China's or the Ivory Coast'swith a pathetic, barely-veiled yet entirely hypothetical threat that when China faces "issues" someday, they'll surely come to regret the following inaction in kind by western leftists.
>>2449250>THERE HAS NEVER BEEN CAPITALISM WITHOUT VIOLENT EXPANSIONwhat about the NEP?
don't you think things change when the state leads the market? when there's state socialism and not state capitalism?
>>2449267Yes, things substantially change in that we can no longer call that "capitalism". Hence, why it bwhaves differently
Avoid thinking in abstract terms, always historicise phenomena. There has only ever been western capitalism, because it's a living process that has continuity and origin, there's no abstract capitalism, there's just the one historical event and process of capitalism
>>2449302>when Canada gets invaded by Trump >whenNot gonna happen. Or it will when the empire has already dwindled to ash and will be worthless. It would, should it happen, however instantly catapult us into the based timeline.
I have canadian (american) acquaintances/friends but it'd be so worth it. Sorry, eh.
Also reminder you can tell someone's realness by how they act when there are actual stakes.
>>2449302Wanting muslims exterminated because they're not socialist enough, and hating china for not collapsing by intervening against the extermination of muslims
Now that's what I call double dipping on westoidism, masterful maneuver
>>2449204Lmao, then why where the pushing so much to export capital?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_Out_policy and the B&R initiative, plus another bazillion investments.
But I'll tell you why: because their (capitalist) economy relies on profit to work and grow, and to do that they need bigger markets to sell their stuff to.
>>2449210> Nobody has still explained to me what aid that iran and palestine requested from china, that china denied.> westoids want china to start intervening in other countries affairs without even being asked toWe were just expecting them to do literally anything about the genocide, you know instead of sending money to israel and collaborating with the zionist project
https://web.archive.org/web/20241202094656/https://truthout.org/articles/chinas-ties-with-israel-are-hindering-the-palestinian-struggle-for-freedom/https://english.www.gov.cn/news/internationalexchanges/202203/07/content_WS6225601ec6d09c94e48a6238.htmlhttps://web.archive.org/web/20250513111305/https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/china-quietly-aiding-israels-settlement-enterprise-howetc
> and then accuse others of "social imperialism"Nobody is talking about "social" imperialism
> They don't actually want the genocide to stop, otherwise they'd be doing something about it.As we are
https://www.italiachecambia.org/news/genova-portuali-armi-israele/https://www.ildiariodellavoro.it/genova-i-camalli-bloccano-un-carico-di-armi-diretto-in-medio-oriente-poggi-filt-cgil-il-governo-e-la-politica-trovino-gli-strumenti-per-tutelare-lavoratori-e-cittadini/https://left.it/2025/07/14/portuali-bloccano-armi-destinate-a-israele-non-saremo-complici-di-un-genocidio/Too bad our governments are capitalist so it requires a lot of pressure to get them to do anything
>>2449250Absolutely illiterate.
The initial violent expansion was to force the entire world in the world market, it's a qualitatively different thing from the standard capitalist market competition that operates on a day to day basis, the thing I was actually talking about.
>>2449271Unmarxian nonsense
>>2449292picrel
>>2449339Because italy as of now is capitalist nation; we had our history which lead us here, with our small successes and our many failures.
Given the current state of things, we can't pull great impressive feats, of course; and obviously nobody expects that.
And you're using this to defend the inaction of the country with the highest GDP, highest population, highest industrial production of the world, which also likes to pander itself as socialist? Come on be serious
>>2449344I know it's bad.
I also know that China ain't helping either; and I will hold this against those who like to pander them as the second coming of the USSR who does no wrong.
>>2449344Also regarding the Deng speech bubble: they're selling drones that israel uses as a base to create military drones
https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-idf-procurement-of-chinese-drones-raises-concerns-1001477502And also assisted their colonial project in other occasions
>>2449331>Unmarxian nonsensenot at all, see
>>2448710 and
>>2448698 >>2449356>>2448698 is interesting because it addresses the question of commodity production without deflecting with random unrelated bullshit at least.
The problem is that it's just wrong in the context of present china (which is what the poster is replying to)
>>2447660I will NEVER, EVER accept that capitalism under a red flag is communism no matter how hard MLs and Maoists push it
Put down your McDonald's burger and read the opening line of Capital
>>2449351> sources inform "Globes.">no sources>Published by Globes, Israel business news - en.globes.co.il - on April 25, 2024.ok retard
found an article by an actual journalist, and it literally just describes westoids crowdfunding for iof soldiers to buy 150 commercial drones, that are then modified
https://www.972mag.com/drones-grenades-gaza-chinese-autel/retards like you though would want people to believe that the IOF is directly ordering from shenzhen drone manufacturers through b2b channels.
>>2449380Based, the people want their only possessions to be a copy of the little red book and either an AK or an M16 looted 50 years ago from Vietnam
Economic development? Don't make me sick.
>>2449387You can develop and improve society with socialism. In fact it's the only sustainable way to do so.
If you don't even understand that then you are just another liberal capitalist, so why are you here?
>>2449390The realities of global trade and capitalist commodity production by China are "sinophobic"?
Are you really so deranged as to call reality itself sinophobic when it doesn't align with your Dengist propaganda, or are you just troll posting?
>>2449362For starters most of the population is employed in the private sector
https://www.statista.com/chart/25194/private-sector-contribution-to-economy-in-china/Secondly even chinese outlets cite workers struggling to find employment, as seen here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wawwwU6Iv1EMeaning that labor is a commodity. Even the poster agrees with me here.
Secondly yes you can invest with the Yuan, just google the Shangai Stock Exchange
Thirdly Xi agrees with me that they aren't a planned economy, and aim to maximize market mechanisms
https://web.archive.org/web/20210304231224/http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-05/23/c_139082022.htmThey even did a lot of reforms to increase the market influence on the state sector
https://web.archive.org/web/20210304231224/http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-05/23/c_139082022.htm >>2449398the past leads to the present
they did do something wrong at the beginning, for the ussr to rot from the inside later
>>2449400 u wot
Oh poor you
That is exactly what we mean
And you aren't infiltrated either (repressed lol), no one cares.
>>2449364> Italy represents the former and China the latterLolno
We discussed this to death many times already, but the fact of the matter is that the only reason for such a long persistence of capitalist economy is because the chinese state, as is, serves their developing capitalist class.
Sure you point out the many benefits that the working class is getting right now, but it's not like the world has never seen keynesian welfare states.
>>2449376>>uh colonialism and imperialism are totally separate processes and unrelated to the function of capitalismAbsolutely illiterate: again not what I wrote.
>>2449387As we all know we hate development, not capitalism; please ignore the actual criticisms being given in favour of shit nobody wrote
>>2449390This is just radlibbery. Come on even I know what's obviously wrong with the statement he gave, yet you resolve to radlib pear-clutching and calling people racist, What a joke.
>>2449400Because they aren't communists, they're liberals who want to jump ship to the winning team; which is why they fallback to racialist nonsense a method of analysis and critique.
>>2449418Even if it is some big brained move to utilise capitalist for rapid development, how to do you then shift to a socialist economy?
By what mechanism, when do you judge the time is right? You're going to have a lot of corrupt officials, a lot of capitalists, a lot of capitalism loving citizens to contend with.
I can only see 2 options: you never abandon capitalism or you require a second revolution, neither is ideal.
>>2449427>figure out an alternate history for humanity Well, you may have a point However
consider
blam blam blam!
Year Zero motherfucker
>>2449437wait for what?
china already routinely takes control away from CEOs
sometimes they even shoot em
>>2449424Yet you purposfully went out of your way to misconstrue what I was talking about, how curious
< Right now China has no need for violent expansion and is simply following the standard capitalist practice of outcompeting others.>>2449427> in a way that's unrecognisable to that of all other developed nations?Because those are capitalist nations which perpetuate the system and I get a lot of people holding them on a pedestal telling me they're something they are not.
> Why are the capitalists allowed to cheat and use socialism-lite when it suits them for as long as it suits them, but there's the moral onus on Vietnam to figure out an alternate history for humanity by which you still reach modern levels of development without markets?They aren't "allowed" so to say: the people who call the nordics etc socialist are obviously wrong and must be corrected, likewise we cannot have the social democrats try to limit what we can aim for by confusing other people words.
There's also the fact that generalized commodity production is like, most of the point?
The USSR demonstrated on a practical level that you can develop with a planned economy, and ironically it's economy got worse and stagnated as they introduced market elements.
>>2449447I already have, I said it's like the prime directive. You said fuck that it's their duty to be the world police but better this time.
Now go away.
>>2449447Look I ain't that anon and I replied to it before but if you continue to insist
>>2449229>this whole discourse is actually covertly zionist because it is premised on the notion that "israel" is a standalone entity and not just an extension of the US>the answer to "why doesn't china do something in relation to [israel]" is the same as to "why doesn't china do something in relation to [usa]"Succinct, correct. Something no ultra leftoid ever achieved
As to the second question, same as the first question, well you have to figure that one out by yourself, far as I am concerned. I won't explain you the basics of your continents politics etc. That would be rude, now wouldn't it?
>>2449433I'm sure that will work well after your entire economy has become dependent on them.
And that's the best case scenario where they haven't also taken control of culture and politics
>>2449434Oh sweat summer child…
>>2449439So did the US, nazi germany and others at certain points in time: you confuse class discipline with a system shift.
>>2449441> that's how it transformed from sub-sahara level poor in the 90s to global economic superpowerWell I suppose the USSR never fucking existed then
> The disappearing of Jack Ma is just a classic example of thatSee above
>>2449443To be a liberal is to belive you don't have to do that and instead just reform your way into communism
>>2449444So capitalism was never just a stage of human development, it was a system that came into existence for no reason and it will continue on forever for no reason? There's nothing for a rather recently agricultural nation looking to develop to be industrialised to learn from or utilise from it, like a market economy and commodity production to participate in global capitalist trade, for example?
You do hate development, or at least don't think it's very important if you think it can be that cut and dry where markets = selling out.
>They aren't "allowed" so to say: the people who call the nordics etc socialist are obviously wrong and must be corrected, likewise we cannot have the social democrats try to limit what we can aim for by confusing other people words.But it worked for them in staving off revolution for the entire Cold War.
>>2449459> So capitalism was never just a stage of human development, it was a system that came into existence for no reason and it will continue on forever for no reason?Dude wtf are you talking about
> There's nothing for a rather recently agricultural nation looking to develop to be industrialised to learn from or utilise from it, like a market economy and commodity production to participate in global capitalist trade, for example?> You do hate development, or at least don't think it's very important if you think it can be that cut and dry where markets = selling out.Markets (generalized commodity production)
IS selling out from socialism.
I wouldn't have near the same level of issue with so called "AES" and the discourse around them if they just dropped the S from their official marketing since they clearly aren't; and personally I am even more pissed that I get people who aren't even born in these places holding them on a pedestal for something they clearly are not.
Put them in the same regard as Kenya, Brazil, Indonesia or other developing countries: they say they're capitalist, we say they are, everybody knows and agree on what they are and are not, and holds them to such standard.
>>2449469>Markets (generalized commodity production) IS selling out from socialism.In this world that exists entirely in your mind where it's a choice to opt out of global trade that is comprised of almost entirely capitalist economies.
You hate development if you really, really cannot tolerate playing the development game in a world dominated by capital, because the only alternative then is that you simply just don't develop.
>>2449458What part of "they are the same entity" do you not understand? It's pointless to do anything ylto israel without also doing it to the us.
Stopping trade with israel but not the usa would change nothing and amount to empty virtue signalling, while also permanently crossing the non interference red line and destroying China's credibility on the world stage
>>2449478> The Soviet Union literally fucking bankrupted itself carrying the national liberation struggles of all of AfricaThis is ahistorical nonsense
>>2449479> It's pointless to do anything ylto israel without also doing it to the us.You have to be genuinely retarded to believe this. After years of struggle we're finally getting our european goverments to at least not give as much money to israel, and here you are pretending that China
=HAS= to give them investments and products that they immediately turn into weapons
>>2449472Shitspasm said
>arming resistance groups fighting a genocidal fascist state<inb4 but that's not MY opinion on itYou chose to go to bat for him like some kind of internationalist, you jump in to his defence then that was the opinion you were defending.
>>2449483>It would prove that China is not an island of stability for other nations to trust with their Shanghai Cooperation BankYou mean joining in going against the genocidal state that
EVERYONE else is against?! Have you seen or not seen the ONU votes?! Have you seen or not seen South Africa leading the charge at the International Court of Justice.
What the fuck are you talking about?!
>>2449476It would destroy the trustworthiness that china's been building up on the international stage in an instant, while accomplishing nothing.
you forgot the crucial part, namely how it would affect the israeli economy, namely that it wouldn't because they'd just trade by proxy through the US or any other country. this omission is funny to me, because it reveals that you're not concerned with israel's ability to commit genocide, but with china proving its socialism to you. do you think the global market is just countries shipping goods directly to each other back and forth?
are actual results or lack thereof irrelevant to you, and only gestures matter?
>>2449469Read Critique of the Gotha Program because I know you haven't. Marx would undoubtedly call China's system socialist by this measure
>"What we have to deal with here is a communist society, not as it has developed on its own foundations, but, on the contrary, just as it emerges from capitalist society; which is thus in every respect, economically, morally, and intellectually, still stamped with the birthmarks of the old society from whose womb it emerges."
<"Hence, equal right here is still in principle—bourgeois right, although principle and practice are no longer at loggerheads… This equal right is still constantly stigmatized by a bourgeois limitation. The right of the producers is proportional to the labor they supply; the equality consists in the fact that measurement is made with an equal standard, labor."
>"But one man is superior to another physically or mentally and so supplies more labor in the same time, or can labor for a longer time; and labor, to serve as a measure, must be defined by its duration or intensity, otherwise it ceases to be a standard of measurement. This equal right is an unequal right for unequal labor. It recognizes no class differences, because everyone is only a worker like everyone else; but it tacitly recognizes unequal individual endowment and thus productive capacity as natural privileges. It is, therefore, a right of inequality, in its content, like every right." >>2449472>What does internationalism mean if not taking the side of the oppressed against the oppressor wherever possible? It sounds like you just reject the principle of internationalism as a communist obligation.Well Wikipedia defines it as
>Internationalism is a political principle that advocates greater political or economic cooperation among states and nations. So it's about cooperation more than acting like the world police against all oppressors wherever possible, according to Wikipedia.
>>2449494> It would destroy the trustworthiness that china's been building up on the international stage in an instantno it fucking wouldn't
>>2449491>>2449495And not helping a fucking genocide state doesn't affect that in any way shape or form since everyone else is already on board that israel fucking sucks
>>2449491>>2449497 >>2449484>we're finally getting our european goverments to at least not give as much money to israelif you believe this, you are retarded.
and yes, there's some things you can't do unless you're the world hegemon. such as throwing your weight around in the world economy.
China can't "stop trading" with israel because it can't force half the world to also stop trading, like the US can.
you're blaming the passenger for not exercising sufficient control over the car that they're the passenger of
>>2449508>China can't "stop trading" with israel because it can't force half the world to also stop trading, like the US can.How the fuck does that matter at all?
China is the biggest industrial power of the planet with a growing network of aligned states, of fucking course they can stop a lot of help fueling Israel.
>>2449507you might actually be retarded if literally any western country seriously even considers doing anything to israel, instead of just empty condemnations to fool retards like you
you seem to have a totally naive image of how the empire actually works. a dog won't bite its own tail.
if china did what you suggested, all those heccing wholesome western governments you're glazing for wagging their fingers at israel would instantly retaliate and propagandize against china for disrupting global trade
>>2449490It's "Workers of the World" not "Worker's of my specific ethnic/nation group".
There's a name for that second thing and it is National Socialism. If you are against internationalism you are a National Socialist.
Marx spoke on the necessity of internationalism in his opening speech at the First International.
SIOC is revisionism. It is Nazism. It is anti-Marxist and anti-Communist.
>>2449483>>2449494>trust with their Shanghai Cooperation Bank. Do you want BRICS to challenge USD dominance or not?The USSR funded communist rebels globally and yet they still maintained friendly relations with national bourgeois governments all around the world. There is no evidence to suggest that an embargo against Israel would harm China's trade relations with the vast bulk of their partners. That's just speaking generally. When it comes to Israel specifically there is even less of an excuse since they're hated pretty much everywhere and cutting trade with them would likely improve global opinion on China.
>you forgot the crucial part, namely how it would affect the israeli economyChina is one of their largest trading partners. Losing that could be significant, and it would add additional strain to the US empire as America would have to pick up the slack with further subsidies. You people always talk so tough about how China will displace and break US imperialism, but you leap to defend passivity and appeasement when far more pressure could be put on them.
>>2449504Lmao sure Anon use some retarded liberal definition. From the constitution of the Comintern:
<The Communist International-the International Workers’ Association-is a union of Communist Parties in various countries; it is a World Communist Party. As the leader and organiser of the world revolutionary movement of the proletariat and the upholder of the principles and aims of Communism, the Communist International strives to win over the majority of the working class and the broad strata of the property-less peasantry, and fights for the establishment of the world dictatorship of the proletariat.Internationalism means rendering aid to progressive forces wherever possible to bring about the aims of the communist movement. This doesn't mean being a world police and getting involved in every fight everywhere. But it does mean rendering aid where practical to progressive forces, or at an absolute minimum refusing to deal with the reactionary forces against which they fight.
>>2449515can china tell russia, or any of its allied states, to stop trading with all countries that also trade with israel, including the US?
no they can't do that. if they can't do that, any ban on trading with israel is complete nonsense.
>>2449519>if china did what you suggested, all those heccing wholesome western governments you're glazing for wagging their fingers at israel would instantly retaliate and propagandize against china for disrupting global tradeYou mean as they're doing anyway? Oh what a genious idea, let's help a genocide state in exchange of absolutely nothing if not more profit for our companies.
Kinda incredible that until a while ago everyone was onboard on how much china is doing for israel; and right now everyone's pearl clutching
>>2449529Nobody's "helping" anyone idiot, china doesn't control global trade.
Send your complaints to the country that actually controls global trade and has the power to do the things you're suggesting: the USA
>>2449522>When it comes to Israel specifically there is even less of an excuse since they're hated pretty much everywhereMaybe if everyone is "Yemen and Iran". Everyone else wants a 2SS.
And the Soviet Union suffered a lot from international isolation. I have no idea why you pretend that, aside from WWII, bourgeois governments liked the USSR. China isn't even just trying to have trade, they have an ambition far beyond that that can't afford to be tarnished for your nonsense.
>>2449530< T. the people's bourgeous bootlickerSure fag
>>2449533But you know what they control? The factories in their own fucking country
>>2449536> for absolutely 0 benefit to palestiniansThey're selling israel the materials they use for weapons and finance them, of course that would help them by destabilizing israel
at bare minimum.
>Then in 1966 came the “cultural revolution”, which lasted a whole decade, a real disaster for China. During that period many veteran cadres suffered persecution, including me. I was labelled the "No. 2 Capitalist Roader" after Liu Shaoqi. Liu was called "commander-in-chief of the bourgeois headquarters" and I "deputy commander-in-chief". Many strange things happened in those days. For instance, people were told that they should be content with poverty and backwardness and that it was better to be poor under socialism and communism than to be rich under capitalism. That was the sort of rubbish peddled by the Gang of Four. There is no such thing as socialism and communism with poverty. The ideal of Marxists is to realize communism. According to Marx, communist society is a society in which the principle of from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs is applied. What is the principle of to each according to his needs? How can we apply this principle without highly developed productive forces and vast material wealth? According to Marxism, communist society is a society in which there is overwhelming material abundance. Socialism is the first stage of communism; it means expanding the productive forces, and it represents a long historical period. Only if we constantly expand the productive forces can we finally achieve communism. The Gang of Four's absurd theory of socialism and communism led only to poverty and stagnation. […] Certain individuals, pretending to support the reform and the open policy, call for wholesale Westernization of China in an attempt to lead the country towards capitalism. These people don't really support our policies; they are only trying vainly to change the nature of our society. If China were totally Westernized and went capitalist, it would be absolutely impossible for us to modernize. The problem we have to solve is how to enable our one billion people to cast off poverty and become prosperous. If we adopted the capitalist system in China, probably a small number of people would be enriched, while the overwhelming majority would remain in a permanent state of poverty. If that happened, there would be a revolution in China. China's modernization can be achieved only through socialism, not capitalism. There have been people who have tried to introduce capitalism into China, and they have always failed.
<Deng Xiaoping, We shall draw on historical experience and guard against wrong tendencies, April 30, 1987
>Taken together, these accounts tell a pretty compelling and straightforward story: a worker state led by a vanguard party has placed the productive forces developed by capitalism under human control once again, for the benefit of the many rather than the few, and so definitively begun the complex and difficult transition away from capitalism and into communism that we call socialism. Capitalists, sheltered and insular in their dealings with fellow human beings, don’t understand that they are not sympathetic characters, so they shamelessly self-victimize in the press in the hopes of winning sympathy from the masses, in a futile effort to rally the necessary fervor for military intervention. The situation looks grim for the forces of reaction… And then the Western Left bursts onto the scene with a litany of harsh recriminations, determined to build up China into a villain worthy of war: “China has billionaires.” “China still has inequality.” “China still has wage labor.” “There’s no free speech there.” “Suicide nets.” “Free Tibet.” “Xinjiang is East Turkestan.” “Liberate Hong Kong.” “Neither Washington Nor Beijing.” Their indulgence in atrocity propaganda is unparalleled, and they’ll often outdo original sources and even the most vicious reactionaries in their preening paraphrases of Chinese horror.
<Roderic Day, China Has Billionaires, 5th of April, 2021
>If private property, money, abstract value production, class society, and the state, are abolished prematurely, when the oppressive logic and power of capital still controls the entire world, China would become vulnerable to both external imperialist violence and internal reactionary sabotage (no doubt under the banner of “democracy”). The Communist Party would be immediately compromised by foreign backed elements; the country might be torn apart once again by civil war, and once again subjected to imperialist domination. The Chinese revolution, what so many millions fought, worked tirelessly, and sacrificed their lives for, will have been for nothing. Marxism is anything but rigid and dogmatic, and has always been about adapting to the ever changing objective conditions of each era, using what ever is available toward revolutionary goals. The opinion of those baizuo who think that China should have chosen the disastrous course of action described above, or at least remained underdeveloped, poor, and weak, in order to satisfy their fundamentalist interpretation of Marxism, should not be indulged. These myopic and short-sighted “left com”, “ultra-left”, or modern “Maoist” types love to denounce modern China as a betrayal of socialism, without considering that it is the failure of the Western left to do successful revolutions in their countries which made it necessary for existing socialist states to adapt to the global conditions of entrenched neo-liberal capitalism. Those who think that 1.4 billion people, who for 200 years suffered so immensely under vicious colonial rule and brutal capitalist domination, will so quickly forget what their true enemy is, don’t know much about capitalism, colonialism, or people.
<He Zhao, The Long Game and Its Contradictions, 27th October, 2018
>So, to build socialism it is necessary to develop the productive forces. Poverty is not socialism. To uphold socialism, a socialism that is to be superior to capitalism, it is imperative first and foremost to eliminate poverty. True, we are building socialism, but that doesn’t mean that what we have achieved so far is up to the socialist standard. Not until the middle of the next century, when we have reached the level of the moderately developed countries, shall we be able to say that we have really built socialism and to declare convincingly that it is superior to capitalism. We are advancing towards that goal.
<Deng Xiaoping, To Uphold Socialism We Must Eliminate Poverty, 26th April, 1987
>“I am convinced that more and more people will come to believe in Marxism, because it is a science. Using historical materialism, it has uncovered the laws governing the development of human society. Feudal society replaced slave society, capitalism supplanted feudalism, and, after a long time, socialism will necessarily supersede capitalism. This is an irreversible general trend of historical development, but the road has many twists and turns. Over the several centuries that it took for capitalism to replace feudalism, how many times were monarchies restored! So, in a sense, temporary restorations are usual and can hardly be avoided. Some countries have suffered major setbacks, and socialism appears to have been weakened. But the people have been tempered by the setbacks and have drawn lessons from them, and that will make socialism develop in a healthier direction. So don't panic, don't think that Marxism has disappeared, that it's not useful any more and that it has been defeated. Nothing of the sort!”
<Deng Xiaoping, Excerpts From Talks Given In Wuchang, Shenzhen, Zhuhai And Shanghai, 1992
>I think China is a socialist country, and Vietnam is a socialist nation as well. And they insist that they have introduced all the necessary reforms in order to motivate national development and to continue seeking the objectives of socialism. There are no fully pure regimes or systems. In Cuba, for instance, we have many forms of private property. We have hundreds of thousands of farm owners. In some cases they own up to 110 acres (some 150 hectares). In Europe they would be considered large landholders. Practically all Cubans own their own home and, what is more, we welcome foreign investment. But that does not mean that Cuba has stopped being socialist.
<Fidel Castro, Interview with La Stampa reporter Jas Gawronski, published 2nd of January, 1994
>"The modern factories that defeated the Germans in World War II had their origin in the many technical agreements signed with foreign firms […] By March 1930 the [USSR] had signed 104 contracts. Of the 104, 81 were with American or German companies […] Over 400 American engineers made the architectural drawings for the Magnitogorosk plant, the largest project in the First Five-Year Plan. […] In May 1930, McKee waws hired to supervise the construction as well. By 1931, 250 American engineers were working on the project […] McKee brought in engineers from General Electric to work on the huge electrical installation. New open-hearth furnaces were designed by the Freyn Company […] the American Morgan Engineering Company […] and the German Demag A-G.”
<Walter Dunn Jr., The Soviet Economy and the Red Army 1930-1945, 1995
>In speaking of the capitalists who strive only for profit, only to get rich, I do not want to say that these are the most worthless people, capable of nothing else. Many of them undoubtedly possess great organizing talent, which I do not dream of denying. We Soviet people learn a great deal from the capitalists.
<Stalin, Marxism Versus Liberalism, An Interview With H.G. Wells, 1934
>Get down to business, all of you! You will have capitalists beside you, including foreign capitalists, concessionaires and leaseholders. They will squeeze profits out of you amounting to hundreds per cent; they will enrich themselves, operating alongside of you. Let them. Meanwhile you will learn from them the business of running the economy, and only when you do that will you be able to build up a communist republic. Since we must necessarily learn quickly, any slackness in this respect is a serious crime. And we must undergo this training, this severe, stern and sometimes even cruel training, because we have no other way out.
<Lenin, The New Economic Policy, 1921
>The mainland will maintain the socialist system and not turn off onto the wrong road, the road to capitalism. One of the features distinguishing socialism from capitalism is that socialism means common prosperity, not polarization of income. The wealth created belongs first to the state and second to the people; it is therefore impossible for a new bourgeoisie to emerge. The amount that goes to the state will be spent for the benefit of the people, a small portion being used to strengthen national defence and the rest to develop the economy, education and science and to raise the people’s living standards and cultural level.
Since the downfall of the Gang of Four an ideological trend has appeared that we call bourgeois liberalization. Its proponents worship the “democracy” and “freedom” of the Western capitalist countries and reject socialism. This cannot be allowed. China must modernize; it must absolutely not liberalize or take the capitalist road, as countries of the West have done. Those proponents of bourgeois liberalization who have violated state law must be dealt with severely.
<Deng Xiaoping, Bourgeois Liberalization Means Taking The Capitalist Road, 1985
>China is not a free market economy. We tried. We let them into the World Trade Organization. We sent businesses over there. We made trade deals. They are a controlled top-down economy. You will never compete and win against them, unless you take back the means of production.
<Hillary Clinton, interview with Chatham House [now deleted from Youtube] (2021)
>China has found a way to use capitalism against us, and what I mean by that is the ability to attract investment into entities that are deeply linked to the state.
<Marco Rubio, interview with Face the Nation on Jan. 29, 2023
>Will it be possible for private property to be abolished at one stroke? No, no more than existing forces of production can at one stroke be multiplied to the extent necessary for the creation of a communal society. In all probability, the proletarian revolution will transform existing society gradually and will be able to abolish private property only when the means of production are available in sufficient quantity.
<Friedrich Engels, Principles of Communism, 1847
>Between capitalist and communist society there lies the period of the revolutionary transformation of the one into the other. Corresponding to this is also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat.
<Karl Marx, Critique of the Gotha Programme, 1875
I have a different question than the same old reheated discussion, such as it is. If China is not the real deal, why are western leftoids so damn interested in it? Why not spend your cultural, human capital (your free time, unless you are actually paid) on other, productive pursuits? I mean, I don't care much what you do but there seems a glaring contradiction here, at the very least. That is also why I say to get some perspective, prioritize and most of all start with yourself. Talk, as any child knows, is cheap.
>>2449536So it seems, so it seems
>>2449542You can't be honest for your life.
How complicated is to not ask them to not sell israel drones that they use to bomb civilians? And the drones are but an example.
>>2449535>Everyone else wants a 2SSThat's a separate issue. A one or two state solution is the question of the ultimate resolution of the conflict. Economic pressure such as an embargo is the means to achieve a resolution.
>I have no idea why you pretend that, aside from WWII, bourgeois governments liked the USSRBecause many of them did? India, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan (before 1979), Indonesia under Sukarno, Finland, Sweden, etc. Just off the top of my head these are a few bourgeois governments that had friendly relations with the USSR. Most of the third world and any openly non-aligned state essentially. The only ones that didn't were either imperialist countries themselves or were so firmly in the US orbit that they were barely independent states, and these are the same sorts of governments that are hostile to China today.
>>2449545No it fuckign wouldn't: you have no proof; and if anything everyone is hating israel right now.
> Literally so that Palestinians and Israelis buy Chinese umbrellas all the same but from Egypt. IfThey're selling them base materials for weapons and financing their economy; but you already knew that, it's just that deflecting is simpler.
>>2449547Great, they can import lots of raw materials. China is trying to allow their billion people to climb the value chain and that requires ample trade with developed economies.
And the 2SS is not just a trifling issue, it's a statement that means, "We support Israel's right to exist even in its current form and think it's government still deserves a sovereign existence despite its actions".
>>2449600If they did intervene in Ukraine, but sided with Russia, well how does "internationalist duty" play out here? Are they correct for siding with Russia on the basis that both are opposed to NATO expansion and are members of the same trading bloc that seeks to weaken the dollar's stranglehold on global commerce? Or should they go completely against their own interests and support Ukraine against its oppressor and bolster the western imperialists as well as Ukraine's reactionary and anti-communist government?
I don't think either is the preference for anti-campists, but then as westerners they're not held responsible for Russia's invasion of Ukraine the same way they
might definitely are for Israel's genocide against Palestine, yet "Communist Duty" becomes a thing in the latter but not the former.
>>2449656>Best Korean is a vassal state of the PRCLmao
>and sent their soldiers to Ukraine though?They sent them to Russia actually
>>2449402The pattern I recognize is people goomba fallacy-ing libs that hate China because it doesn't respect liberal Human Rights, ultras that critically support but ultimately dislike China because they think it's actually capitalist, and MLs that support China but dislike that they're trading with Israel, all into a singular hypocritical retard that takes all three positions at once.
Another pattern I see is nationalistic hatred of Westerners as people, which is a supremely un-Marxist way of looking at the world.
>>2449411>And you aren't infiltrated either (repressed lol)It is common knowledge that, at the very least, the CIA infiltrated and subverted the leftist groups of the 1960s. I'm on mobile, so I don't have anything on hand, but I can assume you that concrete proof of it exists, as I've gone through it myself. I remember that they saw anarchist groups as a priority, as the lack of formal organization made them easier targets.
And even if we assume that this stopped happening in the 70s (which I strongly doubt), you must admit that there's something strange about the supposed face of the American left in popular culture, Hasan Piker, being butt buddies with the goddamn Democratic party.
The rest of your post is incomprehensible to me, I'm afraid.
>>2449660>Another pattern I see is nationalistic hatred of Westerners as people, which is a supremely un-Marxist way of looking at the world.Well it's warranted when they're unironically disowning the actions of their own governments in favour of complaining that another foreign government isn't doing what they want, to absolve themselves of any responsibility.
But like, how could you even start to rally the people against genocide when your starting point is arguing "it's not my duty anymore than it is China's and they're doing fuck all" on leftypol, what kind of passionate outrage are you going to summon from fellow westerners when your starting point is washing your hands of the genocide.
>>2449677Usi un traduttore come tutte le persone normali allora
>>2449678T. making shit up in your head again.
>>2450113More actually.. hurr learn history fool
Hyperborea *mutter mutter* fucking Koreans
hate em, HATE
>>2449649That is perfectly fine. Well, from my side, I ain't chinese, or I would not fuck around with the people in this wasteland, naturally. Anyway, critique should do one of two things (or both if you can manage)
1) be concrete, actionable, ideally with some suggestions for, again, real steps to take etc.
2) at least come from a place "to the left" and not simply (barely) rewrite racist, westoid conception of bugmen, 'no one outside the blessed west can ever achieve even a single step towards "progress" (however defined)' etc. (etc. etc.), which is the majority of "talking points" that I witness here
Basically don't be an annoying, less than useless ultra-lib
>>2449678It is known
This is what it sounds like:
They are just as bad, they mirror the aggressor, even if it is things you have to do, existentially, to avoid getting wiped off the face of the earth
Every action taken against NATO+ is defensive, justified and ultimately good in nature. Yet, I can see how governments would not go the "full mile" against the imperialists. Patience. There will come a day, not to far in the future when you all are counter-occupied.
>>2450204Yes
They (the liberal west-chauvinist at large) live in a total fantasy of their own creation. They get (supremely, irrationally) mad at any "incursion" into this fantasy. Well, strap in lol
You will not like the next several decades (and beyond).
>>2450209War, conflict, crisis. The time when the rubber hits the road. When even the privileged and comfortable are feeling the stakes and the turning of history. Reality might invade the garden.
It's sink or swim as in, liberals as a political force of any kind are being, more or less slowly, fully eradicated.
New Tricon, relevant to this thread.
https://thetricontinental.org/newsletterissue/far-right-neoliberalism/They will just close ranks, as is the norm in war time. And some of them, an ever vanishingly small minority, will go over to our side.
>>2450250>after the 1960saka Mao: the retarded years
>>2450204ultroidism can only really exist in countries with no real movement, because the moment talk gets concrete and you have to talk about real things happening in the real world, their babble wouldn't just sound retarded like it does now, it would simply be beside the point
>mr general secretary, we must shut down the toy drone factories because iof soldiers bought some with their own pocket money >>2448837> >trade is exactly the same as imperialism and genocideThat had to have been the assumption you were making considering Scandinavia has never held a colonial empire and was a very latecomer to the game of capitalist development
Except I don’t know if the Scandinavian countries are facilitating wage slave mining projects in Congo, where the surplus value of brutally worked laborers, including children and women subject to sexual assault, is extracted, while the Chinese transnational firm Huawei does
>>2448801All westoids are (proto)fascist vermin until proven otherwise, so yes
"Oh but me and me mum we are anti-racist activists"
Statistics laddie
>>2450288Sorry but “hitlerism” has nothing to do with your nationality, race, or genetics, believing it does is the essence of hitlerism
Third worldism is just fascism for the weak
>>2450839I've come to despise people who are not careful with their words, who will just say anything for "effect".
I hope your mother dies
>>2450207>>2450204>>2450194>"it's just some israelis buying some drones for personal use on aliexpress"<DJI is a private Chinese company and the world’s top UAV seller, controlling two thirds of the global market. The company specializes in civilian UAVs and aerial imaging technology.
<DJI is most known for its ‘Phantom’ – an unmanned mini quadrotor helicopter, which has become popular amongst aerial photographers. DJI’s Phantom drone is the world’s most common civilian drone.
<DJI UAVs are used by the Israeli military, police and private Israeli companies for surveillance and crowd control in the occupied East Jerusalem, West Bank and Gaza.
<In 2018, Israeli media reported that the Israeli company Ispra developed the Cyclone riot control system to fit on DJI drones. The Cyclone system is a specifically designed system installed on UAVs to unleash tear gas on protesters. On 30 March 2018, identical technology was used by the Israeli military against protesters in Gaza taking part in the Great March of Return marking the 42 anniversary of Land Day.
<Photo evidence obtained by the campaigning group, Hamushim, shows that DJI’s Matrice 600 drone was used by the Israeli military to drop tear gas on protesters in Gaza taking part in the Great March of Return activities, stretching between March and June 2018. The system installed on DJI’s UAV unleashing the gas on protesters was manufactured by the Canadian company, Actuonix Motion Devices.
<By the end of 2017, every commander in the Israeli military’s Infantry, Border Defence and combat Intelligence Units had a DJI drone at his disposal to use during crackdowns against Palestinians and intelligence gathering operations.
<Four out of the five battalions of the Combat Intelligence Units have received the DJI Matrice drone. The Matrice weighs around 2.4 kg and has a battery life that lasts for around 35 minutes, and has an advanced camera that can film in the day and night.
<The Israeli army’s five infantry brigades – Givati, Nahal, Paratroopers, Kfir and Golani – as well as the newly formed Border Defense Corps, use DJI’s Mavic drone. The Mavic weighs around 700 grams and has a single battery life of up to 20 minutes at a speed of 65 km/hr and is so small it can fold into a pouch.
<In each Unit, the drones are operated by a team of three soldiers who act as controller, spotter and back-up who, along with the Unit’s commanders have undergone weeks of training.
<In July and August 2014, Bladeworx – an Israeli company specialized in UAV aerial photography, was contracted by the Jerusalem municipality to provide aerial patrols along the route of the Jerusalem light rail.For an entire month 24/7, Bladeworx operated a unit of 6 Phantoms above the Palestinian neighborhoods of Shuafat and Beit Hanina, which transmitted HD video and images to the headquarters of the municipality, the Israeli police and the light rail.
<In 2014, DJI’s Phantom quadcopters were used by the Israeli army during the repression of demonstrations in the Palestinian village of Nabi Saleh in the occupied West Bank.
<Company UAVs were also used by the National Media Response Unit of the Israeli police. The Videos produced by the unit are used by the Israeli government for pro-Israeli propaganda (Hasbara).
<The Israeli Defence Ministry cannot buy DJI drones directly from the company (as it’s a Chinese company), but through local Israeli distributors. The company’s official representative and distributor in Israel is Hobbiz Ltd. Hobbiz Ltd’s lab employees undergo training by DJI.
<In addition, there are three other registered distributors of DJI products in Israel: LOOL TV, Bug Multisystem Ltd., Benda Magnetic.also if japan can cut economic ties to the us for economic schizophrenia china can easily do the same for a state committing a genocide, even if israelis were just buying some offbrand dollar store funkopops from china they shouldn't ship em >>2451191Do you think this article proves anything other than the claim that Israel are modifying off-the-shelf, civilian market drones as bombs to be true?
>"it's just some israelis buying some drones for personal use on aliexpress"Oh I'm sorry, you were making a strawman argument.
You also need to look up shell companies.
>>2451202>Do you think this article proves anything other than the claim that Israel are modifying off-the-shelf, civilian market drones as bombs to be true?it also proves that israel is using those "off-the-shelf" civilian market drones for mass surveillance and to drop gas on gatherings of people and further proves that israel's government is using goods traded with china to help enforce their apartheid state and carry out their genocide something which china could easily block if capital was actually subservient to the PRC's government at all in the slightest
>>2451249they're selling em despite that lol DJI has their own branch in israel still
>>2450842I actually am a black person and poor too unlike 90% of third worldists ya retard pigskin
>>2451236Then why would I shill for chinese neocolonialism then, hitlerite retard?
My political outlook isn’t “I hate yt people-ism”
>>2451337>Please distinguish communism from capitalism in any way<No seriously eternal wage slavery and immediately imprisoning proles for going on strike is just a detour, honest!>>2451339Tell that to those slaves in the Congo
I’m sorry
Guess that’s just the Yellow Man’s burden
>>2451340because it puts a strain on the pariah state's already overburdened economy, it would demonstrate to the arab people that china is a benevolent force and it would be a propaganda win to the general population that is pretty fuckin disgusted with what israel is doing at this point
china still won't do this because like i said before their state is subservient to capital above anything else like any other state in the world :^)>>2451356explain it how it comes into play instead of telling me to google a basic money laundering concept lol
>>2451356The difference is that, like most MLoids (anti-dialectical Marx warping scum) you have a profound talent at ignoring cognitive dissonance
China could send PLA troops to murder Palestinians alongside the IDF and you would somehow find a justification, we both know that
>>2451360>explainUS is the only supplier of interceptors. if they cut off funding israel doesn't have an alternative. they cant buy interceptors through third parties.
its the fundamental difference, why the US can unilaterally sanction countries and it has an effect, and why random non hegemonic countries sanctioning the US is just sanctioning themselves
you cant just abstract reality and pretend two countries are the same when the material conditions are drastically different
>>2451368we're not talking about china sanctioning the us we're talking about china cutting off their corporations from doing business with israel something which should be easily done if SWCC actually had any merit
>>2451369DJI's still got a branch there
>>2451373>>2451378good let them pay black market prices and let them eat the cost for it, it'll end up fucking over their economy or jack up the financial aid sent to israel by the us which would in turn burden the american economy further.
>>2451379>>2451381autisic seething is not an argument.
>>2451385Why are Toyota allowed to sell pickups on the civilian market if they're famous for getting machine guns strapped to the bed?
>good let them pay black market pricesThis is uneducated seething, the black market isn't about inflating the cost of weapons, it's about making the sale in the first place by expanding the market. You think the AKs that Islamic insurgents in Africa are holding cost a million dollars per unit?
>>2451391>Why are Toyota allowed to sell pickups on the civilian market if they're famous for getting machine guns strapped to the bed? why should israel have access to any of the chinese markets especially especially one that allows you to more easily commit a genocide? if the eu started selling the same sort of drones to the us would you make this same sort of jump to defend it?
>this is uneducated seething, the black market isn't about inflating the cost of weapons, it's about making the sale in the first place by expanding the market. You think the AKs that Islamic insurgents in Africa are holding cost a million dollars per unit? it's basic capitalism higher risk, less supply equal demand also the cost of moving the product through different regions to avoid the authorities and whatever shit you gotta forge to ensure that your tear-gas dropping drones are on paper going to the people of gaza for "food aid" and not to the same place that's been ordering them in bulk for the last 10 years would for certain inflate the costs of these things and would strain the current ongoing war-effort even if it isn't raising the cost to a million dollars a unit it still does quite a bit and would have a negative impact on the israeli state and their current genocide campaign
we will not get that because the chinese like money too much and if they do they will probably only do so after europe starts doing it or when israel starts nuking iran :^) >>2451516Yes they do. China is a Communist proletarian dictatorship.
>>2451469>why should israel have access to any of the chinese marketshttp://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-03/23/c_137058111.htmChinese goods make life easier for palestinians. To restrict these goods from entering occupied palestine would starve palestinians of necessities.
>>2451541>Chinese goods make life easier for palestinians. To restrict these goods from entering occupied palestine would starve palestinians of necessities. considering how strict those blockades are now that shit is not getting in anymore lmao the drones used to spy on, bomb and gas the arabs are all still getting there tho
>>2451544more like the americans
also it's really nice that you guys all morph into chuck schumer when this subject is brought up(USER WAS WARNED FOR THIS POST) >>2451469>why should israel have access to any of the chinese marketsYou can't keep asking this as though it's the fault of the Chinese that something they produce for the civilian market is being repurposed by the Israelis and there is literally no other purpose for civilian drones than to be used by the IDF.
>if the eu started selling the same sort of drones to the us would you make this same sort of jump to defend it? But they don't though, I've pointed out that Toyota sells a civilian product commonly repurposed for war and that's your retort?
>it's basic capitalism higher riskBut there isn't any when it comes to running a shell company that buys some civilian product off of AliExpress and then redirecting it to Israel, the black market for illegal weapons was raised as an example for how you can't control weapons that were weapons out of the factory, the idea that the Chinese can make it so that Israel has to pay 10%, 20%, 50%, etc for drones because I pointed out the black market exists for real weapons is stupid.
>>2451565>You can't keep asking this as though it's the fault of the Chinese that something they produce for the civilian market is being repurposed by the Israelis and there is literally no other purpose for civilian drones than to be used by the IDF.so were the the ussr and china idiotic for refusing trade with south africa during apartheid ? i mean they were gonna get some of those goods no matter what.
>But there isn't any when it comes to running a shell company that buys some civilian product off of AliExpress and then redirecting it to Israelyeah shipping 10,000 drones to one country on aliexpress and then needing to ship them to another would increase the cost regardless you dumb monkey fuel and labor costs don't just magically go away the first time you place an order.
>>2451580>so were the the ussr and china idiotic for refusing trade with south africa during apartheid ? i mean they were gonna get some of those goods no matter what.The world was a lot more economically divided back then, that was much more a choice of opt-in than opt-out, perhaps you've forgotten there was the cold war going on at the time.
>yeah shipping 10,000 drones to one country on aliexpress and then needing to ship them to another would increase the cost regardless you dumb monkey fuel and labor costs don't just magically go away the first time you place an order.The fact you think that's a bankrupting expense for modern logistics proves you're a retard grasping at straws.
>>2451585>The world was a lot more economically divided back then, that was much more a choice of opt-in than opt-out, perhaps you've forgotten there was the cold war going on at the time.<translation: "if the PRC doesn't sell drones to israel someone else will" >The fact you think that's a bankrupting expense for modern logistics proves you're a retard grasping at straws.never said this on it's own would bankrupt israel but it would make logistics more of a nightmare to bring in these drones in and would boost the cost of the orders which can strain their economy if you have to keep constantly shipping drones to one country only to have them shipped to a completely different country
>>2451594rope
>>2449666>Well it's warranted when they're unironically disowning the actions of their own governments in favour of complaining that another foreign government isn't doing what they want, to absolve themselves of any responsibility.I'm not sure I agree with this interpretation.
From what I've seen, most Western leftists are upset about China because they expect better from it. They aren't letting themselves off the hook, they're simply aware that their own governments are, objectively, not going to do anything about this.
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