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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internet about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
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Not reporting is bourgeois


File: 1757808250341.png (232.7 KB, 908x624, ClipboardImage.png)

 

are you kidding me I thought he came up with this

In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly – only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!

I have dealt more at length with the "undiminished" proceeds of labor, on the one hand, and with "equal right" and "fair distribution", on the other, in order to show what a crime it is to attempt, on the one hand, to force on our Party again, as dogmas, ideas which in a certain period had some meaning but have now become obsolete verbal rubbish, while again perverting, on the other, the realistic outlook, which it cost so much effort to instill into the Party but which has now taken root in it, by means of ideological nonsense about right and other trash so common among the democrats and French socialists.

Quite apart from the analysis so far given, it was in general a mistake to make a fuss about so-called distribution and put the principal stress on it.

Any distribution whatever of the means of consumption is only a consequence of the distribution of the conditions of production themselves. The latter distribution, however, is a feature of the mode of production itself. The capitalist mode of production, for example, rests on the fact that the material conditions of production are in the hands of nonworkers in the form of property in capital and land, while the masses are only owners of the personal condition of production, of labor power. If the elements of production are so distributed, then the present-day distribution of the means of consumption results automatically. If the material conditions of production are the co-operative property of the workers themselves, then there likewise results a distribution of the means of consumption different from the present one. Vulgar socialism (and from it in turn a section of the democrats) has taken over from the bourgeois economists the consideration and treatment of distribution as independent of the mode of production and hence the presentation of socialism as turning principally on distribution. After the real relation has long been made clear, why retrogress again?

nobody reads anymore. the entire internet is bots, alcoholics, drug addicts, and mindless borderline illiterate people. even chat gpt is smarter and a better conversationalist than the average online retard.

>>2478781
I'm trying to figure out the rest of this shit he wrote about the means of consumption changing

>>2478786
lol fuck off drug addicts (alchoholics are drug addicts too) have the smartest and most self aware people alive when they can handle their stuff

See, I always thought something sounded fishy about that quote from what I DO know about marx, but I'm too much of a lazy ass to actually read that shit for myself.

>>2478792
I'm looking at the full text and cant figure what was the point of all that shit he wrote like just get to the point bruh

>>2478794
>Marx argues that true communist society can only emerge by transforming the mode of production, not by focusing on distribution, and criticizes outdated socialist ideas that ignore this fundamental principle.
Yea thats what I've been saying all this time

>>2478786
Deepseek says your text is false so that contradicts you, YOU ARE A CONTRADICTION

>>2478786
YOU ARE A CONTRADICTION, CORRECT YOURSELF

>>2478790
>still believes the joe rogan psychonaut meme about le ebin drug users being smart from drug use in current year

File: 1757840117304.jpg (546.01 KB, 3264x2733, yw677adwbuq11.jpg)

>>2478788
to marx, the mode of consumption is transformed from an indirect form of exchange by money into a direct form of distribution by certificates (coupons). i speak more on this here: >>2478134
we may read this quotation also:
<On this point I will only say further, that Owen’s “labour-money,” for instance, is no more “money” than a ticket for the theatre. Owen pre-supposes directly associated labour, a form of production that is entirely inconsistent with the production of commodities. The certificate of labour is merely evidence of the part taken by the individual in the common labour, and of his right to a certain portion of the common produce destined for consumption.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch03.htm
value to marx only exists as a social relation between commodities (objects of use produced for sale), but without exchange, there is only production for use, directly distributed according to one's input. the insubstantial nature of owen's "money" must then be in its limited abilities, rather than social transference. a ticket is for a particular use, while money is universal.
>>2478794
>I'm looking at the full text and cant figure what was the point of all that shit he wrote like just get to the point bruh
that could describe most of marx's work lol.

>>2479385
>to marx, the mode of consumption is transformed from an indirect form of exchange by money into a direct form of distribution by certificates
thats not even remotely close to what the text says.

>If the elements of production are so distributed, then the present-day distribution of the means of consumption results automatically. If the material conditions of production are the co-operative property of the workers themselves, then there likewise results a distribution of the means of consumption different from the present one.

<material conditions of production

File: 1757842726051.jpeg (77.96 KB, 1024x471, LaborNote-lg-lg.jpeg)

>>2479440
read:
>Within the co-operative society based on common ownership of the means of production, the producers do not exchange their products; just as little does the labor employed on the products appear here as the value of these products, as a material quality possessed by them, since now, in contrast to capitalist society, individual labor no longer exists in an indirect fashion but directly as a component part of total labor […] Any distribution whatever of the means of consumption is only a consequence of the distribution of the conditions of production themselves. The latter distribution, however, is a feature of the mode of production itself. 
<He receives a certificate from society that he has furnished such-and-such an amount of labor (after deducting his labor for the common funds); and WITH HIS CERTIFICATE, HE DRAWS FROM THE SOCIAL STOCK OF THE MEANS OF CONSUMPTION AS MUCH AS THE SAME AMOUNT OF LABOR COST.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm

>>2479445
in english text is read left to right then top to bottom. so when someone describes the process of one thing turning into another, the things at the top happen first, and then the things at the bottom happen later. hope that helps

here is the text in the order it is written

>What we have to deal with here is a communist society, not as it has developed on its own foundations, but, on the contrary, just as it emerges from capitalist society;

>which is thus in every respect, economically, morally, and intellectually, still stamped with the birthmarks of the old society from whose womb it emerges.
>Accordingly, the individual producer receives back from society – after the deductions have been made – exactly what he gives to it[…]

>He receives a certificate from society that he has furnished such-and-such an amount of labor (after deducting his labor for the common funds);

>and with this certificate, he draws from the social stock of means of consumption as much as the same amount of labor cost.
>The same amount of labor which he has given to society in one form, he receives back in another.'
>Here, obviously, the same principle prevails as that which regulates the exchange of commodities[…]

>In spite of this advance, this equal right is still constantly stigmatized by a bourgeois limitation.

>But these defects are inevitable in the first phase of communist society as it is when it has just emerged after prolonged birth pangs from capitalist society.
>Right can never be higher than the economic structure of society and its cultural development conditioned thereby.
>In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want;
>after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly
>only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners:
>From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs[…]

>Any distribution whatever of the means of consumption is only a consequence of the distribution of the conditions of production themselves.

>The latter distribution, however, is a feature of the mode of production itself[…]

as we can see the change in consumption marx is talking about is results in a change from the social relations that control production and from the material constraints of production itself. its not magic tickets that make communism but sufficient productive capacity combined with new social relations, namely public ownership of productive property. what marx refers to as

>the material conditions of production


if communism is a moneyless classless society why would marx suggest that changing the name of money is the goal? he does not. labor vouchers are not a prescriptive demand of an idealized society it is merely a suggestion for a hypothetical method of accounting in the first phase of communism, just as it emerges from capitalist society, because right can be no higher than the economic structure of society''.

this is abundantly clear. if you are having trouble learning to read there are free resources available online

>>2478786
> the entire internet is bots, alcoholics, drug addicts, and mindless borderline illiterate people.
always was

>even chat gpt is smarter and a better conversationalist than the average online retard.

try talking with real people, fag

>>2479461
>as we can see the change in consumption marx is talking about is results in a change from the social relations that control production and from the material constraints of production itself.
which no one disputed.

>>2479470
>which no one disputed.
>>2479385
>To marx, the mode of consumption is transformed from an indirect form of exchange by money into a direct form of distribution by certificates (coupons)

the mode of consumption is not transformed by changing from money to certificates

you are doing precisely what marx criticizes in the very text you are quoting

>Any distribution whatever of the means of consumption is only a consequence of the distribution of the conditions of production themselves.


>Vulgar socialism (and from it in turn a section of the democrats) has taken over from the bourgeois economists the consideration and treatment of distribution as independent of the mode of production and hence the presentation of socialism as turning principally on distribution.

>>2479473
>To marx, the mode of consumption is transformed from an indirect form of exchange by money into a direct form of distribution by certificates (coupons)
but this is still an entirely correct statement in the marxian context.

File: 1757846656932.png (100.38 KB, 349x642, lad4zqz9rt91.png)

>>2479474
it is not. the mode of consumption does not change.

>>2479477
>the mode of consumption does not change
…?
the mode of production changes how the consumer receives the social product. to marx, labour certificates replace money.

>>2479481
>labour certificates replace money
Do you think that changes the mode of production?

>>2479487
to marx, labour certificates come from the co-operative mode of production, since to him, commodities will no longer be created.

>>2479489
How does the mode of production change "according to marx" according to you?

>>2479385
Don't welfare services employ workers?

I think social democratic reforms like a postal service or medical care should be sought out not because public services change how people use these services but because public services change how these services are produced.

I think a similar logic applies to labour vouchers, UBI and other reforms. These sorts of reforms call into service a whole host of capitalists to defraud/bilk the consumer, let them. The point is to consider the workers employed by said capitalists. The landlords raise the rent. The landlords hire property management services. The workers of the property management service unionize. The workers seize the tenement hall.

This sort of trade reductionism just tends to reinforce a consumerist perspective.

>>2478790
Every druggie thinks 'they can handle their stuff' until they can't.

>>2478794
>Communism is true, because it just is ok!

>>2478790
>>2479500
People get on drugs because they are depressed proles who are close to class consciousness. So they realize depressing truths of this world bourgeois society denies. This doesn't mean drugs are good, it means class consciousness is good. The drugs are good narrative confuses cause and effect. The drugs are bad narrative is just classism shitting on traumatized proles.

>>2478781
I didn't really read your post because you wrote too much and if you are making a thread about slogans you probably don't have anything useful to say
nor did I read the seubsequent replies, mostly for the same reason

but that pic is only half accurate, he criticized that phrase not only in the context of capitalism but also under any subsequent society before the utopian, end of history, undefined communist society of a far away future, which was marx's way of telling you to shut up and stop being an idiot

>>2479385
>marx quote
>says the opposite of what he's trying to argue was marx's position
he's calling the labor voucher thing nonsense, for the same reasons he did when proudhon resurfaced the discussion some years prior

this is a point Paul Cockshott brings up in this debate with Francis Spufford: https://archive.org/details/debatecockshottspufford
TL;DL: in gommunism needs are politically determined. only needs are decommodified. there is no contradiction between communism and commodity production

>>2479575
that's not cockshott's point at all
wtf is this consensus cracking cointelpro bullshit

>>2479578
if you listen to it you'll find he says there are things that are needs and things that are not needs

>>2479581
So everyone’s needs are determined by those in political office? By the party? Just gathering that data is a monstrous undertaking that leaves you no time to govern if you’re a party member and starved and dead if you’re an ordinary person

>>2479586
and that's beyond the point because that's not what cockshott says. his life work has literally been about how socialism should structure production around the demands of a free market for consumers

>>2479575
cockshott is a retard? big surprise!

>>2479586
>So everyone’s needs are determined by those in political office?
I didn't say that. I said they are determined politically. politics is more than just The Party or whatever
>>2479629
IIRC Cockshott explicitly uses healthcare as an example of something for which payment is not to be demanded. in other words, healthcare is deemed politically to be need
>his life work has literally been about how socialism should structure production around the demands of a free market for consumers
and what do we call things that are made for exchange? we call them commodities. and because we are here talking about a communist society, these are communist commodities

>>2479575
Wrong.Socialist commodities differ from other historical commodities. They possess three characteristics: (l) They are based on a public ownership system of the means of production and are primarily an expression of the exchange relations between the worker and the peasant. (2)In contrast to the unorganized and unplanned capitalist commodity production, a great majority of socialist commodities are produced in a planned manner under the guidance of state planning. (3)Compared with the capitalist society, the scope of commodities is greatly reduced in the socialist society. Labor power is no longer a commodity. Land, mineral resources, and other natural resources are no longer commodities either. The means of production circulating within the socialist state ownership system have also undergone significant changes and have lost certain properties of commodities.

To negate the commodity aspects of socialist direct social products and to attempt to abolish commodity production prematurely is obviously erroneous. Ch’en Po-ta, a renegade and Trotskyite, clamored for the abolition of commodity production and exchange during the period of the rapid development of China’s rural people’s commune movement in a vain attempt to lead revolution and construction astray. Chairman Mao saw through this conspiracy in time and engaged him in a resolute struggle. In the resolutions of the Sixth Plenum of the Eighth Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party personally convened and chaired by Chairman Mao, this was pointed out: “This way of thinking which attempts to prematurely abolish commodity production and exchange, prematurely negate the constructive role of commodities, value, money, and price is detrimental to developing socialist construction and is therefore in correct.” (4) Socialist commodity production must not only be retained, but must also be developed to consolidate the economic link between China’s industry and agriculture and between urban and rural areas in order to promote the development of socialist construction.

Under capitalism, the purpose of commodity production by the capitalist is to exploit the surplus value of the worker. Through the production and sale of commodities, the capitalist gets back the value of the means of production expended in the production process. At the same time, the new value created by the labor of the worker not only compensates for the variable capital used by the capitalist to purchase labor power, but also creates a surplus. This surplus is the surplus value extracted by the capitalist. Marx called this value-formation process in capitalist production the value augmenting process. This category of the value-augmenting process reflects the exploitative relations between capital and hired labor.

In the socialist production process, the labor of the laborer, as concrete labor, transfers and preserves the value of the means of production expended in the production process. As abstract labor, it creates new value. Should this new value created by the producer belong totally to the producer himself? No. To realize socialist expanded reproduction and to satisfy the various common needs of the laborers, society must control various social funds. These social funds can only come from the new value created by the producer. If the newly created value belongs entirely to the producer himself, then the socialist economy will not be able to carry on expanded reproduction. It can only maintain simple reproduction. The common needs of the laborers cannot be satisfied either. Therefore, in the socialist society, the new value created by the producer must be divided into two parts. One part is at the disposal of the producer himself. It constitutes the labor remuneration fund for the producer and is used to satisfy personal livelihood needs of the producer. Another part is at the disposal of society. It constitutes various social funds, namely, social net income, and is used to further develop socialist production and satisfy the various common needs of the whole laboring people. Consequently, as a producer, a part of the new value created by him has to be deducted for the disposal of society as social funds. As a member of the laboring people, he is fully entitled to enjoy, with the other laboring people, the welfare brought about by the social funds. Therefore, the distribution of the new value created by the producer into the labor remuneration fund and the social fund under the socialist system is fundamentally different from the distribution of the new value created by the worker into wages and surplus value under the capitalist system. Under the capitalist system, labor is a commodity and is subject to the law of value. Wage means the price of labor power. No matter how large the newly created value is, the part that belongs to the worker himself is only equal to the value of those means of livelihood necessary for the reproduction of labor power. The rest, namely, the surplus value, is not only possessed by the capitalist, but is used as a means to increase the exploitation of the worker. Under the socialist system, labor power is no longer a commodity. The laborer is no longer exploited. All of the value created by the producer is at the service of the laboring class. The distribution of the labor remuneration fund of the producer and the social fund is regulated by an overall consideration of common and individual interests and the long-term and short-term interests of the laboring people.

>>2479498
You are a fascist. In China, renegades like Lin Piao also strove to peddle phony communism. They proclaimed that communism was “public propertyism,” that “‘property’ is the word to be stressed on the banner,” and that communism was to make “everyone rich.” The renegade clique never talked about eliminating the landlord and the bourgeoisie; all they cared about were the words “public” and “property.” What class’s “public” was it? What class’s “property” was it? It is obvious. Their so-called “public” was what Confucius and his kind advocated: “When the great Tao prevails in the world, a public spirit will rule all under Heaven.” Hence, it was the slave owner’s “public,” the landlord’s “public,” and the bourgeoisie’s “public”! The so-called “property” was the slave owner’s “property,” the landlord’s “property,” and the bourgeoisie’s “property.” Getting rich could only mean that this handful from the exploiting classes would become millionaires. Had the renegades succeeded in carrying out their conspiracies, the proletariat and the broad masses of laborers would have once again lost all the means of production and would once again have been reduced to slaves in the abyss of hardship and suffering.

>>2479651
this reads like ChatGPT wrote it
nothing I've said contradicts your first paragraph so I'm not going to read the rest of it

>>2479653
Read the maoist textbook now.


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