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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internet about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
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Both /pol/ and /leftypol/ are the same exact fucking thing, same bullshit, both of you people are clearly manifestations of yaldabaothic energies and it’s clear that neither of you really give a shit about anyone
152 posts and 25 image replies omitted.

>>2514327

I don't really know if they are fundamental or if they are even a thing, I'm just speaking to what I vaguely know about one particular popular theory that gets talked about a lot. I don't really have strong opinions one way or the other about any of these metaphysical cosmological theories, they're just fun to read/discuss.

>>2514333
>I'm just speaking to what I vaguely know about one particular popular theory that gets talked about a lot.
that has essentially been the subject of the last however many posts, that copenhagen is a bourgeois psyop that smuggles in capitalist propaganda about the privileged status of the observer that justifies the status quo as human nature by denying the interrelated reciprocal relationship between objects and in doing so it holds back scientific advancement by mystifying reality. insisting that its assumptions are ontological truths is no different than saying things happen because it is gods will

>>2514334
>insisting that its assumptions are ontological truths is no different than saying things happen because it is gods will

Reality emerging from random incomprehensible chaos is about as far from "god's will" as it gets.

>>2514362
you can think that if you want but it doesn't make it proven science . you are just positing a prime mover on the basis of faith, thats dogma not science.

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>why do things happen?
<they just do because of reasons, we cant know stop asking questions!
yes very scientific and nothing like religion

>>2483873
>200 post thread about le esoteric XD retardation
cool


>>2514372
i remember this movie
hated it and loved it at the same time

>>2489366
Every allchans chan is an extension of 4chin. Taking any of them seriously is the ultimate waste of time, but so goes the internet.. in the hands of a few, the ultimate mind control tool. It's so successful in that regard that those who are dependent on it no longer believe in freedom, though they don't fully realize it. I would say "yet" but the captive audiences seem unwilling to look outside. Anyway, it's nice outside and I've got things to do so have a good one.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsrqKE1iqqo

>>2491249
Based Legend of Queen Opala Poster

Better the head of a chicken than the butt of a phoenix.

>>2514272
>the moon doesn't disappear when you look away
the other anon was not suggesting that

le both sides are le wrong

>>2528602
solipsism is a logical consequence of denying a knowable objective external world

>>2528724
the other anon wasn't denying the existence of an objective external world, just saying that all knowledge of it was bound to be incomplete and approximate since observation is a form of computation (whether done by a brain or a computer) and is fundamentally limited by local resource scarcity.

>>2528733
>yes but that is different again from absolute knowledge.
>that doesn't say anything about the composition of reality.
>denying a knowable objective external world

1) Premise 1 (The Claim): Objective reality is fundamentally unknowable. All we have access to are our own perceptions, ideas, and sense data.

2) Implication: We are trapped behind a "veil of perception." We cannot compare our ideas to the "world-in-itself" to check their accuracy. The external world becomes a hypothetical cause for our internal experiences.

3) Logical Extension: If we cannot know the external world, we also cannot know that other minds exist. Other people are part of the external world; we only perceive their bodies and behaviors, not their consciousness.

4) Conclusion (Solipsism): The only thing one can truly know to exist is one's own mind. The external world, other people, the past, and the future could all be illusions or constructs of one's own consciousness.

From this perspective, any philosophy that denies direct or reliable access to objective reality is on a slippery slope to this intellectually barren and practically unlivable position.

The response isn't to claim we have infallible access to reality, but that the "unknowability" thesis is itself flawed because it relies on an impossible standard of knowledge. The core Marxist rebuttal, drawn from Marx's Theses on Feuerbach, is that we don't just think about reality; we interact with it and change it. Human practice is the proof of objectivity.

>The chief defect of all hitherto existing materialism – that of Feuerbach included – is that the thing, reality, sensuousness, is conceived only in the form of the object or of contemplation, but not as sensuous human activity, practice, not subjectively. Hence, in contradistinction to materialism, the active side was developed abstractly by idealism – which, of course, does not know real, sensuous activity as such[…]


>The question whether objective truth can be attributed to human thinking is not a question of theory but is a practical question. Man must prove the truth — i.e. the reality and power, the this-sidedness of his thinking in practice. The dispute over the reality or non-reality of thinking that is isolated from practice is a purely scholastic question[…]


>The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point is to change it.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/theses/theses.htm

If I have a theory of aerodynamics and build an airplane that flies, my theory has been validated not by its correspondence to an inaccessible "thing-in-itself," but by its successful application in the real, material world. The plane's flight is a practical, material test.

Dialectical Materialism rejects the rigid subject-object dichotomy that creates the problem. Consciousness is not a sealed room looking out at a world it cannot touch. It is a product of the material world (the brain) that actively engages with that world. Knowledge is not a mirror of nature but a process of increasingly accurate reflection through practice.

>In the social production of their existence, men inevitably enter into definite relations, which are independent of their will, namely relations of production appropriate to a given stage in the development of their material forces of production[…] The mode of production of material life conditions the general process of social, political and intellectual life. It is not the consciousness of men that determines their existence, but their social existence that determines their consciousness.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1859/critique-pol-economy/preface.htm

Marxism does not arrive at "Complete Knowledge" in the traditional, philosophical sense of a final and perfect system of truth that ends all inquiry. In fact, the demand for "Complete Knowledge" is precisely the kind of metaphysical, ahistorical thinking that dialectics sets out to overcome. Knowledge is about a material world that is in constant flux. Since the object of knowledge (reality) is itself processual and unfinished, our knowledge of it must also be processual and unfinished. History and nature develop through contradictions and negations. There is no final, harmonious end-state of knowledge because the material world itself has no such final state. New contradictions and new phenomena constantly arise.

>The sovereignty of thought is realised in a number of extremely unsovereignly-thinking human beings; the knowledge which has an unconditional claim to truth is realised in a number of relative errors; neither the one nor the other [i.e., neither absolutely true knowledge, nor sovereign thought] can be fully realised except through an endless eternity of human existence.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1908/mec/two5.htm

A theory is "objectively true" not because it perfectly mirrors the noumenal world, but because it allows us to accurately predict outcomes and successfully manipulate the material world. A social theory is "true" if it correctly identifies the contradictions within a society and provides a guide for action that successfully leads to its revolutionary transformation. The success of the practice validates the theory.

>The standpoint of life, of practice, should be first and fundamental in the theory of knowledge.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1908/mec/two6.htm

Marxism claims a kind of "absolute" knowledge, but it is structural and historical, not factual and complete. The core argument is that the proletariat, by virtue of its objective position within the capitalist mode of production, is the one social class capable of achieving a "total" or "absolute" understanding of society as a whole. The bourgeoisie has an interest in understanding the parts (markets, profits) but must mystify the whole (exploitation, crisis), because understanding the whole would mean understanding its own historical transience. The proletariat, as the "universal class" whose emancipation requires the emancipation of all, has an interest in understanding the total system of its own exploitation. Its perspective is not partial but totalizing.

This is the "absolute" knowledge of the laws of motion of capitalism and its place in human history. It is the knowledge of the fundamental social totality, which Marx aimed to provide in Capital.

>The Marxist doctrine is omnipotent because it is true. It is comprehensive and harmonious, and provides men with an integral world outlook irreconcilable with any form of superstition, reaction, or defence of bourgeois oppression.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1913/mar/x01.htm

>>2529110
>1) Premise 1 (The Claim): Objective reality is fundamentally unknowable. All we have access to are our own perceptions, ideas, and sense data.
<2) Implication: We are trapped behind a "veil of perception." We cannot compare our ideas to the "world-in-itself" to check their accuracy. The external world becomes a hypothetical cause for our internal experiences.
Reality can be fundamentally unknowable, yet one perception may be more correct at least within a certain context or defined parameters.

>>2528724

solipsism is a logical consequence of having your head inside of your ass

>>2529114
>Reality can be fundamentally unknowable, yet one perception may be more correct at least within a certain context or defined parameters.
if reality is fundamentally unknowable a perception cant be "more correct" if there is no objective grounding for "defined parameters" you are advocating a relativistic subjective idealism. if your "defined parameters" are objectively grounded then reality isn't fundamentally uknowable.

this is just the error of mainstream philosophy and the rejection of hegel leaving people to think kant is "common sense" when he has been overcome for centuries

>>2529131
>if reality is fundamentally unknowable a perception cant be "more correct" if there is no objective grounding for "defined parameters" you are advocating a relativistic subjective idealism. if your "defined parameters" are objectively grounded then reality isn't fundamentally uknowable.
Things are always correct only within defined parameters. This sentence can only be grammatically correct within defined parameters. Newtonian physics can be correct in its way without considering relativity within certain parameters. But just as you can make Newtonian descriptions that are more correct than others, it still doesn't "know" reality not considering underlying factors, and whatever underling factors we may never get to the true substrate of substrates. So reality can in fact be unknowable but one description can be more correct than others within defined parameters.

>>2529139
this type of correctness is arbitrary and subjective so has no claim to truth. if reality is fundamentally unknowable then truth is incoherent. i cant stop you from being a bourgeois idealist if thats what you want but that doesn't make you correct. capitalism is human nature within certain "defined parameters".

>>2529110
this is a mischaracterization of any serious idealist philosophy. there is no real debate about whether there is an external world, but rather about what that external world is 'made of'. whether the external world is 'made of' matter or 'made of' mind, it behaves in the same way and its properties can be studied empirically. your assertion that

>[consciousness] is a product of the material world (the brain)


is simply not logically founded in a rigorous way. there is indeed much known and studied about the correlations between consciousness and the brain, however there is not a single causal explanation to explain how internal subjective experience arises from physical matter. there is nothing about matter that would suggest subjectivity, there is nothing in information theory that explains experiential awareness of information processing, there is no causal explanation for consciousness whatsoever under physicalism, other than to deny that it exists at all.

again, the disagreement is not about what empirical observations can be made about reality, but about how to interpret them in an ontological sense. people, minds and bodies both, are obviously affected by their environment at least as much as they effect it in turn.

whether my empirical observations can be relied on or not in an epistemological sense, it is all i have to go on, and i must assume that it correlates to some kind of external reality, whether that reality is 'made of' mind or matter or something else we haven't thought of yet.

>>2529165
thats fine if you are not a communist/marxist but cant be a materialist revolutionary and also agnostic in this way, at least not while remaining philosophically consistent. again, i cant stop you from holding mutually exclusive contradiction positions

if you want to say science proves marx wrong then just say that instead of trying to dispute what marx's position is

>>2484000
>But still nature is an evil place
Moralism. You’re projecting abstract human categories of good and evil onto an objective process. Nature simply exists and develops according to its own laws, independent of moral judgment. It isn’t “evil” or “good”, it’s dialectical, containing contradictions: creation and destruction, life and death, growth and decay. These are natural processes, not moral questions.

also i would like to see the supposed "evidence" for reality being fundamentally uknowable

>>2529157
>this type of correctness is arbitrary and subjective so has no claim to truth.
Huh? You're missing the point entirely. We were discussing with how the reality always remains a subjective experience, and any objective descriptions or perceptions fundamentally remain subjective. I gave you examples to illustrate that point. Can you not follow a simple argument?
> i cant stop you from being a bourgeois idealist if thats what you want but that doesn't make you correct.
Dumb response that fails to understand followed by canned response. I swear the LLMs are outpacing you.

>>2529183
>You're missing the point entirely.
I really think you are and have been for many replies.
>any objective descriptions or perceptions fundamentally remain subjective
This is precisely what dialectics overcomes.

>>2529182
>also i would like to see the supposed "evidence" for reality being fundamentally uknowable
I'll put it in the most simple way but it might be too esoteric for you to understand:
>How can you say can objectively say what reality is unless you were outside of reality itself?
<Can you perceive the exterior of a building from inside it?

>>2529185
>I really think you are and have been for many replies.
I replied to you once. I even restated for you to make it easier for you to comprehend but you still fail to.

>>2529188
Well you are making the same mistake as the other anon

>>2529186
Again this is exactly where Hegel starts

>>2529189
Now you're just onto playing dumb. It's ok anon, just think of a non-retarded response and come back and post it when you have it. I'll forget all the retarded replies.

>>2529191
Wrong.

>>2529193
His entire project is a direct response to Kant saying we cannot know

>>2529197
Incorrect.

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>>2528724
>>2528742
It's not the same thing as solipsism since solipsism is the view that the self is the only reality, while claiming that there is an objective external world that is only approximately knowable is a much more nuanced claim.

>>2529203
>only approximately knowable
this is very different from "fundamentally unknowable"

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people on leftypol actually read doe and arent pedophiles

>>2529210
Here's what was said
> The universe doesn't even have to be fundamentally composed of probabilistic or chaotic phenomena for it to be fundamentally unknowable because "knowledge" itself is a simulacrum, or model, or representation, or oversimplification of the object the "knowledge" is trying to "understand."
This is not a claim that it is fundamentally unknowable

>>2529216
This defines knowledge as a collection of facts about objects that retains the subject-object distinction that dialectics overcomes.

I'm not disputing that there are material limits to particular knowledge as a complete set of facts about all existing objects, I'm saying that you can objectively know fundamental relations between objects that constitute absolute knowledge of truths that applies to all things.

A map cant be the territory, because to create such a map you would have to use ever piece of matter in existence to recreate itself, but this arrives at the real conclusion: the territory is the map.

Knowledge as representation is exactly contemplative aspect of philosophy that Marx critiques: the point is to change it.

>>2529225
>I'm not disputing that there are material limits to particular knowledge as a complete set of facts about all existing objects, I'm saying that you can objectively know fundamental relations between objects that constitute absolute knowledge of truths that applies to all things.
So then you are now agreeing that reality is unknowable? What was your definition of reality? A completely imaginary thing can be reality and have objectively correct or incorrect descriptions about it. That doesn't make it "reality" in any real sense. The imaginary always exist within the bounds of reality but are not equal to reality.

>A map cant be the territory, because to create such a map you would have to use ever piece of matter in existence to recreate itself, but this arrives at the real conclusion: the territory is the map.

That doesn't follow at all. The description is not the thing neither is the thing the descriptor, they both exist independently of each other. The descriptor may bare some similarities within a well defined set of parameters.

>>2529228
>So then you are now agreeing that reality is unknowable?
No
What was your definition of reality?
a better question would be what is knowledge. maybe read the thread before posting
>they both exist independently of each other
no they dont. this is what i mean by missing the point. ive already said just today:
>>2529225
>that retains the subject-object distinction that dialectics overcomes.
>>2529197
>[Hegels] entire project is a direct response to Kant saying we cannot know
>>2529191
>[How can you say can objectively say what reality is unless you were outside of reality itself?] is exactly where Hegel starts
>>2529185
>This is precisely what dialectics overcomes.

>>2529233
>What was your definition of reality?
>a better question would be what is knowledge. maybe read the thread before posting
Why don't you define them?
>no they dont. this is what i mean by missing the point. ive already said just today:
You quoted half a dozen posts where you said nothing.

>>2529249
>Why don't you define them?
read the thread
>You quoted half a dozen posts where you said nothing.
If you reject dialectical materialism just say so instead of restating things that dont address it.

Fuck off tumblrite

>muh eschaton

>>2490791
wanting a father figure is not the same as unconsciously producing material policies that adhere to a need of a father

>>2491120
this is a schizo post - I did not say that marx invented socialism nor implied that marxism is the only socialism out there - what socialism IS however - is a self consciousness about the world - when you are self conscious about the world, then you cannot succumb to the opiate of Gnosticism

go suck my dick bitch


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