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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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Not reporting is bourgeois


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Why are democratic socialists and non-ML types like Bernie Sanders, Hasan Piker (yes, I'm putting him alongside Bernie for laughs), Zohran Mamdani, AOC, non-commie Breadtubers, etc. looked down on as libs who enable the liberal establishment, despite constantly being critical of said establishment and voicing their hatred, frustration and opposition towards them? What do they do exactly?

Well, tbh I can see it with politicians like Bernie, AOC, etc., but what about the left wing influencer commentator types like Hasan or (I guess) Chapo Trap House? The former always says he hates the Dems and that we'll never get change with them, and that Bernie's too unwilling to not be a Dem Party guy, but he gets slammed as a lib who's a useful idiot for the Democrats. Why is that? I know he can be an arrogant douchebag, but I never fully understood when people online criticized such figures from the left.

keep that shit in /isg/

>>2493158
IS-huh? Oh, that's a thing. OK, I'll check it out

This is why.

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>>2493151
Sounds like a (YOU) problem.

>>2493151
There are two types of leftists, ones people complain about and ones who get nothing done

>>2493151
Every other day I am reminded by the newscasts that my country has so called "socialist" (socdem) parties, which used to call themselves communists (but democratic), in opposition to the USSR. Now the USSR is dead, they have gone from liberals to neoliberals. At least MLs and lefcoms tried to move towards communism.

>>2493151
Those criticizing Bernie Sanders and AOC from the left know that they exist to co-opt US workers and youth into supporting the status quo of US capitalist imperialism against the rest of the world, not to organize workers as a force independent of the bourgeoisie, which is the opposite of what Marx, Engels, and Lenin said to do in a bourgeois election. Don't forget that the Democratic and Republican Parties are bourgeois political parties, and there's no possible way to reform them into a workers' party.

The Marxist position for bourgeois elections is not abstentionism, but rather organizing into a distinct revolutionary party of the working class for proletarian class domination that is independent of the bourgeoisie. Using the election to count forces and demonstrate its program to the masses, even if its candidates have no chance of winning. Voting for communist candidates is a duty if you call yourself a communist, to develop experience in the class struggle and spread propaganda to the masses.

Let's start with a link demonstrating my point about Bernie Sanders and AOC as an example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOoTEDB7l18

Now let's begin with three quotes from Marx and Engels on how communists should act in a bourgeois democratic election:

<Even where there is no prospect of achieving their election the workers must put up their own candidates to preserve their independence, to gauge their own strength and to bring their revolutionary position and party standpoint to public attention. They must not be led astray by the empty phrases of the democrats, who will maintain that the workers’ candidates will split the democratic party and offer the forces of reaction the chance of victory. All such talk means, in the final analysis, that the proletariat is to be swindled. The progress which the proletarian party will make by operating independently in this way is infinitely more important than the disadvantages resulting from the presence of a few reactionaries in the representative body.


<Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, 1850, "Address of the Central Committee to the Communist League"


https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm

<The first great step of importance for every country newly entering into the movement is always the organisation of the workers as an independent political party, no matter how, so long as it is a distinct workers' party. And this step has been taken, far more rapidly than we had a right to hope, and that is the main thing. That the first programme of this party is still confused and highly deficient, that it has set up the banner of Henry George, these are inevitable evils but also only transitory ones. The masses must have time and opportunity to develop and they can only have the opportunity when they have their own movement–no matter in what form so long as it is only their own movement–in which they are driven further by their own mistakes and learn wisdom by hurting themselves.


<Frederick Engels, “Letters: Marx-Engels Correspondence 1886”, Engels to Friedrich Adolph Sorge In Hoboken


ttps://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1886/letters/86_11_29.htm

<Complete abstention from political action is impossible. The abstentionist press participates in politics every day. It is only a question of how one does it, and of what politics one engages in. For the rest, to us abstention is impossible. The working-class party functions as a political party in most countries by now, and it is not for us to ruin it by preaching abstention. Living experience, the political oppression of the existing governments compels the workers to occupy themselves with politics whether they like it or not, be it for political or for social goals. To preach abstention to them is to throw them into the embrace of bourgeois politics. The morning after the Paris Commune, which has made proletarian political action an order of the day, abstention is entirely out of the question.


<We want the abolition of classes. What is the means of achieving it? The only means is political domination of the proletariat. For all this, now that it is acknowledged by one and all, we are told not to meddle with politics. The abstentionists say they are revolutionaries, even revolutionaries par excellence. Yet revolution is a supreme political act and those who want revolution must also want the means of achieving it, that is, political action, which prepares the ground for revolution and provides the workers with the revolutionary training without which they are sure to become the dupes of the Favres and Pyats the morning after the battle. However, our politics must be working-class politics. The workers' party must never be the tagtail of any bourgeois party; it must be independent and have its goal and its own policy.


<The political freedoms, the right of assembly and association, and the freedom of the press — those are our weapons. Are we to sit back and abstain while somebody tries to rob us of them? It is said that a political act on our part implies that we accept the exiting state of affairs. On the contrary, so long as this state of affairs offers us the means of protesting against it, our use of these means does not signify that we recognise the prevailing order.


<Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, "Apropos Of Working-Class Political Action".


https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1871/09/21.htm

Lenin also agrees with me if you read the text “Left-Wing” Communism: an Infantile Disorder in the section written "Should We Participate in Bourgeois Parliaments?", so I will leave the link to the page if you want to read it:

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/lwc/ch07.htm

>>2495777
The issue is you cannot get a third party off the ground no matter what because of first past the post, all our unions are tied to the Democratic party and are inseparable from it

>>2495785
Completely irrelevant, bourgeois parties that support imperialism are enemies and will be opposed to prevent workers from being co-opted. Furthermore, communists do not participate in elections with the interest of winning, but rather to spread revolutionary propaganda to the masses and workers' organizations, independent of the bourgeoisie, to advance the class struggle so that dual power can be formed and the bourgeois state can be pushed to its limits in crisis. Eventually, the workers and the revolutionary vanguard are prepared for the revolutionary situation. Therefore, the Democratic Party must be completely destroyed, and the entire bourgeoisie must give its full support to the Republicans and join them, without the ability to co-opt workers to support imperialist finance capital. The various labor parties of the past ran independently, even in first-past-the-post elections in Europe, against competing liberals and conservatives, and this changed nothing about the Marxist position.

bernie sanders is just a social democrat, it just that the US has become insane

What exactly is the issue with Mamdani though?

>>2495888
He's capitulating to the party by retreating from his more radical positions and allowing the same huckster that sabotaged Bernie's 2020 run to head his campaign. The signs are there for it to be AOC all over again.

>>2495819
When you do that the government comes and kills you

>>2496220
Also irrelevant, if the capitalist government wishes to create some martyrs in the class struggle, then you prepare other workers and revolutionaries to continue the class struggle and the independence of the working class from the bourgeoisie. Eventually, all of this will be useful as propaganda to dismantle the bourgeois state and build the Workers' Self-Defense Committee to serve the interests of the proletarian class without the control of the bourgeoisie, in solidarity with the workers of the world.

This talk of yours is merely the opportunistic cowardice of a traitor seeking to co-opt workers to serve finance capital, fearing chaos and sacrifices that will prepare for the revolutionary situation to establish a dictatorship of the proletariat in the future that will spread revolutionary terror.

We can elect any Bernie/AOC type, but the contradiction of what this economy functions on (imperialism) and the limits of what they can reform will make them a failure hated from all sides. First, they or any Democrat will put back up any guardrails Trump knocks down which is another way of saying they will make themselves impotent. They will accept limits from congress and the judiciary, tools of the ruling class to besiege any such administration to try to make them a lame duck on day 1. They will try to bargain and sell out core left wing positions and probably keep the bombs and wars going after the press universally screams at them. And therefore they will be known as the president who didn't even achieve single payer whose failure all future socialists will be associated with. It's a waste of time!

Anyone trying to take on that crucible would have to be way more cynical, well read, and iron spined than AOC, she has already shown a capacity to be bullied and made a fool of by the same fucking establishment that Trump himself has run circles around. Anyone qualified to be better than AOC is immediately hated by the AOC/breadtube sphere, they chain themselves and everyone else with their programmed response to anything that can be cast as "tankie" policy, so they are at a dead end before they ever got started.


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