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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internet about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
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Not reporting is bourgeois


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What's the best way to convince anarchists that power and hierarchy aren't inherently bad?

Anarkids act like they understand theory and sociology better than Marxists do. They love getting on their moral high horse by calling everything "oppression". Yet when you actually pick apart their arguments you'll see that they're full of hot air 95% of the time. They talk a good deal about intersectionality and anti-oppression, but when pressed on how to abolish those oppressive structures in society they have no clue.

Marxism, OTOH, is scientific. We understand that political power is necessary to reshape society. We also understand that hierarchies need to exist until we reach the stage of communism, and even then you will still see things like hierarchies of intelligence, talent, beauty, strength, and so on that can't simply be abolished through idealist methods.

But how do you explain this without looking like you're making apologia for oppression? I've tried the Hegelian way of simply saying "the real is rational" but that doesn't get through anarkids' heads very well.

Ask these anarchists if they would be okay with a retarded kid running a nuclear power plant.

>>2493213
I'm convinced ᴉuᴉlossnW had it right

>>2493215
That's clearances, not heirarchy.

>>2493217
Hes gonna start asking about every little thing - "BUT WHO MAKES AND APPROVED THE CLEARANCES?" "WHO LETS THAT PERSON DO IT" "WHO LETS THAT PERSON LET THAT OTHER PERSON DO IT" and such questions, there is no point answering to a dishonest bolshevik larper they are all negroes that must be raped and executed in public and may UNIT 731 come back one day to show them how anarchy can have responsible people in positions of power without the state instrument.

Unironically, Plato’s Republic.

Without hierarchies the stupid people have as much say in a situation as the smart people. You can’t have an egalitarian society unless everyone is of equal intellect and education, and is competent enough to understand how to work together.

Or, look at the influx of brain rot content on the internet. That’s largely a result of content creation being democratized and stupid people inflating the views of stupid videos.

Power and hierarchy are inherently unstabilising forces, all we wanna do is to build networks outside their reach, so we can clean up after the tower collapses yet again.

>>2493219
ISIS's current decentralized structure is good enough for a model, let them take over a region with a powerplant and you'll have the answer.

>>2493219
>Or, look at the influx of brain rot content on the internet
centralized social media and search engines*, but yeah when you outsource your personal curation out to statistical averages you don't necessarily get something coherent.

Another example being centrists. People represent politics on sliders as a rather unuseful abstraction, someone insists the trick is to set that slider to the middle, and then explaining what that even means or tryning to convert that slider position into actual worldviews results in complete incoherent babbling about extradimensional hypertoruses and the abstract concept of nuanced-ness.

>>2493225
Utopian and idealist. Why has anarchism never lasted for more than five years in the modern age? Your "anarchist networks" are also highly dependent on the existing society and exist within it. You can't have an island of anarchism in a sea of capitalism.

>>2493236
Correct. Normies assume the so-called middle path is always the moral choice and look at where that gets them.

>>2493225
>You can't have an island of anarchism in a sea of capitalism.
Its impressive a retarded stalinist flag can say this without realizing this is the exact same critique Bordiga gave to your "AES" "socialism in one state" ilk. You retarded market economst faggot, all your states are capitalist, you are the children of perestroika.

>>2493213
I'd be interested in asking an anarchist this question: in a situation of total anarchy, what's to prevent the strong from dominating the weak? I mean physically stronger people dominating weak people, such as disabled people who must rely on wheelchairs to maneuver. There's good reason to believe anarchism would do a bad job of this, and this kind of total freedom can end up turning to its opposite by (ironically, paradoxically) removing structures that restrain domination, so people are just crushed by the strongest and most ruthless.

There needs to be some kind of authority that can intervene to protect those people from being trampled underfoot, because there are "natural" inequalities between people. The fact is, I have two working legs so I'm faster than someone who doesn't have legs, or can't use them because of a disability. But there have been a lot of strides made by disability activists to pass laws that mandate wheelchair accesibility and things like that.

>>2493239
To play devil's advocate, too much of anything can turn into its opposite.

This can be critique of communism as well. OP says that communism allows for a certain amount of inequality, but his goal is to abolish it for a classless society in which there's no economic exploitation, political domination or ideological intimidation at all, but there's a real danger with concentrating basically a theoretically unlimited amount of power in the hands of the state, or a revolutionary vanguard party that controls the state as a path to get there. For example, what is actually stopping this revolutionary state from liquidating people for being enemies of the revolutionary state? That doesn't sound bad, but who defines who is / isn't a communist? It's whoever is at the top, so in practice you have a government that can kill ANYBODY and it doesn't matter if you think you're a communist because Mecha-Stalin of the Future decided that you're not, and you can plead your case, but there's nothing to really stop him. But you believe you need to do this in order to get to a place where there's total equality and freedom.

>>2493241
What makes you assume I support AES?

>>2493241
Not to deny it, all autonomists are liberals and natlibs in disguise. Anarchism can only be the movement like ISIS that seeks to spread worldwide or be there none at all. All commody producers all you jewish nigger social conservative succdem communist larpers who believe communist states exist now in under the global capitalist mode of production - you retarded negroes of the world should be lynched.
>>2493244
On this site your flag is stood for by "marxist-leninists" (stalinists) and their counterparts.

>>2493243
>There's good reason to believe anarchism would do a bad job of this, and this kind of total freedom can end up turning to its opposite by (ironically, paradoxically) removing structures that restrain domination, so people are just crushed by the strongest and most ruthless.

That, and in a world made up entirely of decentralized communities the richer and more advanced communities could just dominate the weaker ones.

>>2493247
>Anarchism can only be the movement like ISIS that seeks to spread worldwide or be there none at all.
Why are you using a hierarchical group of jihadis as your model?

>>2493248
Not under a planned economy with the abolition of the value form and resource management. I will not take the time to explain decentralized planning but I suggest you imagine try to do haram things under ISIS and sharia law and see how it goes - that's exactly how trade and other elements will be done away with, they will be "haram" and the movement will be "ISIS".

>>2493249
Have you been living under a rock? ISIS cells no longer have to be approved to exist, ISIS Has become a brand, it is a clandestine cell system now. As for "hierarchies" nobody cares if there will be a captain of a ship - there will be, every element takes responsibility for their role and if it is the role to manage it comes with its own limits. Hierarchies are only a problem on a ladder form - an appointer of an appointer of an appointer that governs the whole of X, not a decisive direct role. The problem is not with the boss or the factory, its the productive forces that are not shedding enough blood for the right cause.

>>2493238
You have a twisted mindset. It's not about lasting in modern age, since modern age won't itself last. We just build networks, wherever capital can disturb them it will, but there's always spaces it cannot reach. Where capital cedes space, we advance, where it advances we dissappear, it's unsymmetrical warfare, guerilla tactics. Point isn't to take it head on, but on all fronts at the same time, since capitalism, as every top down system, have a hard time paying attention to multiple problems at once and can be overwhelmed.

A ruler can only be of a broad assignment, a negro does not rule the field he works, a ruler is the guberment, the ministers, the politicans, the agencies, the party. In the anarchist movement we are mob lynching blackshirts that abtain from voting, if you want to see anarchism look at the fascist movement before ᴉuᴉlossnW decided to engage in elections - imagine it worldwide. Imagine the anti-theism of ᴉuᴉlossnW but worldwide, imagine the futurism, the technophilia and the anti-capitalism outlined in the ICP without ever seizing state power, that is anarchism, it is global terrorism and might makes right, it is futurism, fascism, transhumanism, it is 100% soviet power and 100% bolshevik murdering, it is not the dictatorship of the proletariat it is the abolition of class by the declassed with the forced assignment of destroying all cultures and relics of the past and focusing all of mankind's efforts into one element - the development of the productive forces towards immortality, drugs will aid the minds of the exhausted, creative and aspiring.

>>2493250
>>2493254
I wouldn't expect anything more from an anarkid, but the romanticization of a brutal jihadi group like ISIS makes me think you have no real principles and are just in it for the spectacle of violence.

>that's exactly how trade and other elements will be done away with, they will be "haram" and the movement will be "ISIS".

So, anarchist police. Got it.

>>2493256
>It's not about lasting in modern age, since modern age won't itself last.
Pessimism much?

>>2493260
>So, anarchist police. Got it.
Why not? A cop that serves the movement, no contradiction.
Also did you read the rest of the reply? I mean murder every religious person to exist - there is no romanticizing ISIS. ISIS is given as an example since you all wish for an example of anarchism without an example existing, so I give you a clandestine cell system that lives off the name spreading alone.
>anarkid
And should I call you infantile or baby?
>spectacle
ISG or Debord reader? Either way a worthless word that can only be a display of liberalism. Red army commander Trotsky said it best - it is a problem that can only be resolved by blood and iron, and Tukhachevsky obeys, we have to do it to you harder, and as long as it takes to exterminate.

>>2493265
>Why not? A cop that serves the movement, no contradiction.
And just like that, the anarkid proved my point about hierarchy not being inherently evil or oppressive. Good job!

>>2493271
A cop is as much as a "hierarchy" as a terrorist, you have no idea what a hierarchy is.

>>2493274
>evil or oppressive.
Moralism. Its not a matter of "evil" or "oppression", its the teleology of the abolition of class, the end of the capitalist mode of production and developing the productive forces by any means necessary. What point is there to prove besides that you proved you care about "good vs evil" and out yourself as a liberal moralizer rather than a materialist that knows what must be done.

>>2493271
And you still haven't picked, would you rather be called baby or infantile?

The best (and only) way to convince Anarchists that authority isn't bad is to drag them into a basement, put a gun to the back of their head and pull the trigger.

This is how you should be dealing with Anarchists in general.

>>2493284
Yes pull the trigger on yourself and let them watch big tough guy. Baby bolsheviks haven't had the chance to live out such fantasies since 91.
No honest anarchist cares about buzzwords like authority. If leninists can murder themselves that would be the most convincing way to prove the state can wither on its own.

>>2493213
"Would you rather live in modern China, or Anarchist Catalonia?"

>>2493274
>>2493281
>>2493282
So why are so many anarchists for abolishing the police?

>>2493298
Punks can call themselves anything they want, liberals think of anarchism as an aesthetic. The matter is that police in the present serve the bourgeois order, not the movement against the present state of things nor the movement of the declassed. Punks release "prison abolition" and "police abolition" leaflets yet present no solutions, they are simply gesturing because they cannot be anarchist in essence, only deluded activists with individualist aspirations. The real movement of anarchism is smaller than the name it carries, but only it can affect the social order - not those who play pretend in its name.
See China and the maoist movement for example - did they not wish death to all landlords? Why come they have landlords now? Because it serves their bourgeoisie state.

TL;DR Sloganism / the police don't serve the movement in the present.

>>2493303
They have no solutions because anarchism is a fucking joke.

>>2493297
Catalonia deserved to be destroyed for collaborating with the bourgeous republican state, catalan nationalist retardation, markets and commodity production along with other factors. Syndicates without a proper communist movement to use is a dead end, they possess no class consciousness.
>>2493304
They have no solutions because they aren't anarchists, anarchists don't mind labor camps and such. Modern leninism is a circus for socialdemocrats larping as bolsheviks, don't get me started on jokes.

The only good prison abolitionist is a labor camp creationist.

>>2493260
>Pessimism much?
Not in my view. It's like asking why an ideology opposing lasting hierarchies cannot produce lasting hierarchies. Anarchy propagates in the walls, underground. Wherever a visible manifestation pops up, it's an anomaly. When the enviroment is right a budding sporangium appears just to vanish again.

>>2493213
>the best way
there isn't one because anarchists believe different things and there is no central authority. some recognize consensual justified hierarchies like how a pirate ship needs to elect a captain for battle and some think parents stopping children from running into traffic is oppression.

>>2493338
>there isn't one because anarchists believe different things and there is no central authority.
While the first part is true - every person generally believes different things, and where the second part is true - there is the International of Anarchist Federations. It's only a matter of time under a program is made and adopted. Also great example you gave in the end, the latter of which that scream about oppression you can see overlaps with the creation of "punk" "culture" in the West as opposed to the anarchist school of thought that had existed prior and still continues to exist.

You won't be able to, they are moralists and idealists, there's no convincing them

>>2493213
You don't, you just roll over their skulls with your tank

>>2493213
If Marxism-Leninism was implemented tomorrow it would last.

If anarchism was implemented tomorrow it would crumble within a very short amount of time.

Why do you think the CIA cares more about overthrowing Marxist countries than it does going after anarchists?

>>2493937
>If Marxism-Leninism was implemented tomorrow it would last
So true, just go to the USSR and see… oh wait

>>2493952
china literally has the most advanced socialist system in the world.

>>2493937
Marxism-Stirnerism-Maoism-Dengism with notes from anarchism at the Maoism part has seen infinitely more success than Leninism ever will.

>>2493956
China is not Leninist

>>2493956
So not ml, also the most advances socialist country would be France where the state taxes and spends much more and where workers have free healthcare

I love how blatant bad faith sectarianism is allowed to stay up as long as it's directed against "anarkiddies" but god forbid you make fun of Dengoids

>>2493968
Dengism = ( Maoism = Anarchism + Marxism ) + Stirnerism

Sectarianism comes when you try to demerge the synthesis soup.

>>2493968
common anarkiddie L
common dengGODS W

>>2493963
FACT #1: dengism is built on the basis of maoism
FACT #2: maoism is built on the basis of ML
FACT #3: you are coping
>>2493966
>the most advances (sic) socialist country would be France
Least delusional western left social chauvinist.

When has anarchism ever lifted millions out of poverty?

>>2493213
Because you see hierarchy in a different way than anarchists understand.

Ultras, for exemple, can argue withouth "making apologia for oppression".

so: undestand what we're saying and why we're saying it, don't just assume the party you defend was right because you were told so.

>>2494168
Capitalism also did that.

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>>2494430
>Capitalism also did that.
Man it's so funny those people are reduced to use this kind of argument since they accepted the existence of the bourgeoisie, commodity production, private property, wage labor and all of the staples of capitalism even though capitalist countries do productive force building and poverty reduction well enough, actually Marx SAYS THIS in the manifesto.

>>2494430
>Capitalism also did that.
So anarchism is the only one that doesnt do that? Sounds cringe.

>>2494430
Lifting people out of poverty doesn’t matter?


>>2493213

back in hs I used identify heavily with ancom thought and one of the things that made me drop the anarcho- label and just be a communist without adjectives was the comparison between the "authoritarian" bolsleviks with there cheka and kangaroo courts and the "anti-authoritarian" CNT-FAI burning churches and just shooting bougies in broad daylight without trial. If its gotten to the point where your group actually controls territory than somesort of authority is doing violent shit no matter how said authority chooses to organize there party and/or syndicate. It literally doesn't matter what random ass label you choose for yourself unless you wanna go live in some pacifistic agrarian commune your getting your hands dirty and your gonna have to break some eggs to make an omelette.

>>2494440
what happened in 2005

still an ancom i just think its authoritarian to impose anarchy on dengists in they vote for communism instead. i think ancom could work better in a more individualist and advanced capitalist society that already has productive forces but its not up for one individual to decide. which one wins has to be tested in democratic practice not just in your head

>>2494440
>Man it's so funny those people are reduced to use this kind of argument since they accepted the existence of the bourgeoisie, commodity production, private property, wage labor and all of the staples of capitalism even though capitalist countries do productive force building and poverty reduction well enough, actually Marx SAYS THIS in the manifesto.

yeah,lifting people out of poverty isn'tbad, the thing is that this is a capitalist way of measuring things, since yeah, capitalism also made more people less poor, most people do not live like a peasant nowadays.

>>2494505
it's a good thing, i'm not saying is bad, but if we're discussing ways to achieve socialism, than yeah, it doesn't matter.

>>2494568
Anarchism hasn’t lifted anyone out of poverty. Mutual aid is just charity in practice.

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>>2494556
>which one wins has to be tested in democratic practice not just in your head

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>>2493213
what is this 'choose your fighter' ass image

OP has never read a word of Marx

>>2493213
The argument really does hinge on idealism vs materialism. Convince them of this and their ideology falls apart, but that may take some effort

Anarchoids need to go back to assassinating heads of states and billionaires instead of whining about the other leftoid subspecies for the 1000th time.

>>2495148
>Anarchoids need to go back to assassinating heads of states and billionaires instead of whining about the other leftoid subspecies for the 1000th time.
Yes. But also they are far from the worst offenders in this. Self-identifying 'MLs', for examples, whole bit is to endlessly whine and cry that the anarchists are ruining everything by doing things that they decide to do rather than joining the ML party and obeying some autistic 75 year olds commands.

>>2495035
We have no ideals, we are the real movement against the present state of things (of the declassed). Automation will take away what revolutionary potential the proletariat had as society becomes less and less dependant on their labor, Bukharin will an hero and everyone will cheer.

>>2495148
>Adventurism
Read Bordiga or Pannekoek

>>2494955
Marx believed in authoritarianism.

>>2495757
He didn’t even support Simon Bolivar

Most “anarchists” in the US are simply glorified social democrats who will talk a good deal about the state being evil but will demand more state welfare benefits at the end of the day. Why? Because when they admit an era of a benevolent state is necessary before the state’s eventual withering away.

Read Bordiga

>>2496188
No, I want me and my clique to run things. If I don't like you, "we" don't like you.

>>2496188
This is true, succdems astroturfed anarchism and liberals turned it into a punk aesthetic to be monetized and present bourgeois freedom, anarchism was about order not trashy clothing and shitty houdini leaflets, western "anarchists" and ukrainian "anarchists" are nationalist and reactionary bastards who only use the word anarchism for the military chic. https://libcom.org/article/war-anarchism
One of the first false tendencies to try to shove itself into anarchism was Tolstoy's religious retardation, a complete contradiction and bastardization that still demands to be taken seriously when used to justify bullshit like "anarcha-islam", "pagan anarchism" and other identity politics built on feudal and pre-feudal doctrines, the way they shove this shit and then pretend its all "queer friendly" and "compatible with science" is that they have to modernize it and claim its subjective or metaphorical as to butcher the original archaic meaning that was more than clearly opposed to basic "egalitarian" values such as gay rights, womens rights and has been responsibile for stagnation and persecution of scientists for a millenia. Its all been accepted because of the decadant populist class traitors and those who have no principles but rally under "popular fronts",
I don't have a solution to this yet, but neither do fraudulent marxists who have been subjected to the same issues and opened up to them. One possible solution would be a program that can be implemented across federations alongside a set of principles to be upheld, of course many federations may object to it but we have no reason to be merciful to them just because they think of themselves as "anarchists" if in principles they are not.

>>2493213
Power and authority are dangerous but class is far more important. I'm totally okay with risking power and authority to solve the class problem first.

>>2496294
If you can manage to lead the abolition of class through the state instrument then so be it, I am waiting and will take the time to not oppose the DOTP to come since to us it is no different from the current bourgeois dictatorship, it is a question if you can carry out the program or fall apart trying.

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Power and hierarchy may lead to corruption by those who lead and apathy to those who are leaded, but have we tried having me in charge? It would be different if I were in power, commanding you all, I'm competent and based and epic.

Tbh hierarchy is ass but it's the best way to organize we have because only a few people have vision: everyone else tries to be play safe and keep to tradition and then fuck themselves over when the fucking around stage ends and the finding out phase starts, that's why hierarchy sometimes rules, it forces people to actually innovate and find something new.
Also anarchist not believing in hierarchy is bullshit, they believe in the people's hierarchy, alongside the people's police and the people's goverment and the people's HOAs.

>>2496305
>Also anarchist not believing in hierarchy is bullshit, they believe in the people's hierarchy, alongside the people's police and the people's goverment and the people's HOAs.
Gee I wonder what the real movement against hierarchies is then

>>2496285
Very good article, thanks for posting it

>>2493213
giving them severe brain damage

The hierarchy is not necessary. The factory doesn't have to be organized in a pyramid structure with an owner at the top who keeps all the profits and the workers at the bottom as disenfranchised wage slaves. The factory could be owned collectively by all the workers who share the profits equally and make decisions democratically, no hierarchy required.

>>2496411
by democratically you mean half of them don't want to bother and the rest does so they inherently get sidelined,like in a…. hierarchy ?

>>2496448

Direct democratic rule works in small enclaves of a few hundred or so people. If society were composed of many small enclaves instead of huge centralized power structures then there would be no need for any hierarchy. This is how human society structured itself for hundreds of thousands of years before the Neolithic Revolution and the subsequent transition to permanent agricultural settlements, which tended to coalesce into large centralized power structures because of the non-uniform distribution of natural resources. The hierarchy is a merely byproduct of inequity. It's not a fundamental component of society, it is merely an emergent property.

Force them to read on authority by engels

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>Anarkids act like they understand theory and sociology better than Marxists do
We do more than you can ever comprehend.

As this anon >>2496458 pointed out humans have lived most of their existence relativity hierarchy free only during the dawn of civilization did that change. And its arrogant to assume that it will remain the same. For communism which is common ownership of the means of production and are consequently done away with hierarchies are done away with. Any thing less is at best revisionism and at worst capitalist apologia.
>We also understand that hierarchies need to exist until we reach the stage of communism, and even then you will still see things like hierarchies of intelligence, talent, beauty, strength, and so on that can't simply be abolished through idealist methods.
All socialist states have either dissolved, returned back to capitalism or at best continued on with state socialism. And the so called state socialism has more in common with capitalism, with overseers, production quotes delivered on high, than any actual socialism that Marx or Kropotkin proposed. The organizational structure of these countries does promote communist ideas instead it promotes subservience to the state and the party. When the worker goes to voice his concerns through voting its he can only vote for party members and if there is a non party member hes only allowed to run because the party says so. This one example how these states like that of capitalist states produce frustration and apathy and because of the lack of the political voice the worker has. In a society run were workers run the means of production and there is only bigger councils for the transportation of goods and other related activities; the worker is at greater liberty to change the running of his factory through general factory meetings than, relying on the party system do it for him even if they do so. Hierarchy's only perpetrate themselves they do no disintegrate naturally, they must be forcefully destroyed.

And not to mention the glorious leaders dictators these countries all tend to have that even capitalist countries have a better track record with.

>>2496496
> pointed out humans have lived most of their existence relativity hierarchy free only during the dawn of civilization did that change.
retard psuedo history. you are not an anarchist.

>>2496672

Before humans figured out agriculture and the domestication of animals, people were pretty much on equal footing all throughout the world. You didn't have large social groups with complex hierarchical structures, you had nomadic humans traveling together in small groups of one or a few families who all knew one another and could therefore easily govern themselves. You didn't have domesticated animals, so people all moved at the same speed. People could not stockpile resources, they could only take what they could carry with them. People could not stay in one place, they had to always keep moving with the herds and the seasons. Warfare was symmetric and costly and there was little to gain from it. Then came the Neolithic Revolution and these small bands of nomads found themselves being conquered by huge empires with vast permanent agricultural citystates and armies with chariots and horses and copper/bronze weapons, humans were no longer on equal footing and one group of humans could use technology to dominate other groups of humans and the paradigm of human society changed from decentralized small groups to centralized large empires.

>>2496672
Marx literally called this mode of production primitive communism, I don't know what to tell you.

>>2496496
but like, and this is a well meaning question, do you bridge large scale production with decentralized/localized direct governance? doesn't the need to coordinate production and distribution of goods and resources on a global scale require some form of coercion? a machine operates on a fixed schedule, this alone forces some discipline? i mean, my question is - how do you know that local democratic organizations production extend globally to democratic organizations?

>>2493213
We have so many great examples of great leaps forwards instead of actual proletarian movements. Marxism-Leninism is dead and buried and this shameful period deserves nothing less but critical analyzis of what went wrong.

>>2496496
holy cringe

>>2497530
NTA
>doesn't the need to coordinate production and distribution of goods and resources on a global scale require some form of coercion?
Uncoordinating federations which refuse to engage in planning are attempting to recreate wealth inequality and continue with a market economy, any "coercion" is simply defending against exploitation.
>how do you know that local democratic organizations production extend globally to democratic organizations?
I really don't understand why so many anarchists want a democracy when democracies enable populism to simply vote away any principles. Anarchism should be programmatic.

>>2497534
You want an analysis of what went wrong with "Marxism-Leninism"? Read Bordiga.

>>2497530

Maybe there isn't any need to produce and distribute goods and resources on a global scale. Maybe having a centralized global industrial society is not the preordained ultimate destiny of the human race, it is just a phase.

General systems collapse theory states that human societies tend to grow in complexity until they become unsustainable, at which point they collapse and people revert back to simpler ways of living, in a repeating continuous cycle similar to the concept of boom and bust times in economic theory. Our current complex hierarchical society will eventually collapse and the big central power structures will fragment into lots of decentralized power structures and we will be back to the "bust" part of the cycle.

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>>2497574
>General systems collapse theory states that human societies tend to grow in complexity until they become unsustainable, at which point they collapse and people revert back to simpler ways of living, in a repeating continuous cycle similar to the concept of boom and bust times in economic theory. Our current complex hierarchical society will eventually collapse and the big central power structures will fragment into lots of decentralized power structures and we will be back to the "bust" part of the cycle.
I'm sorry, but if this is the best you can come up with, it's not looking good for you. You've effectively taken capitalist boom-and-bust cycles and reflected them back onto general human existence. There is hardly anything historically progressive about a species that is stuck at some arbitrary limit. Read. Our species really dislikes destroying productive forces unnecessarily, considering how difficult obtaining them, historically speaking, was.

>>2497574
Of course the fake ass religious "anarchist" is spouting anti-civ takes

>>2496672
>the dawn of civilization

What is civilization? Does a tribe of stone age hunter-gatherers count as civilization? Was there civilization in the Americas before Europeans arrived? If you found some uncontacted indigenous tribe in the Amazon jungle who have lived as stone age hunter-gatherers for thousands of years and you gave them machine guns and whiskey and they got drunk and killed each other, would this be a win or a loss for civilization?

>>2493213
Don't care about the topic of this thread

I am trying to name all the people in the picture

From left to right:

1. Stalin 2. Mao

3. ? 4. ? 5. Ho Chi Minh 6. Kim Il Sung 7. Some zoomer? 8. Boleslaw Bierut

9.? 10. ? 11. ? 12. Matyás Rákosi 13. Valko Chervenkov ? 14. Georghe Georghiu-Dej

15.? 16.? 17. Enver Hoxha 18. Todor Zhivkov?

>>2497582

Well obviously human civilization does not revert back to the stone age after the collapse of every empire, we can retain some of the knowledge and experience from our past. It's possible that human technology and human knowledge could someday create a high-tech nomadic society where there is no need for large permanent settlements or complex social hierarchies because each human has the means to tend to all of their own needs independently and with minimal effort regardless of their individual circumstances. It's also possible that human technology and human knowledge could someday create an empire so huge and powerful that its collapse will take our entire species/planet with it.

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>>2497530
Yes and no
<On the basis of federalism, Bakunin proposed a multi-tier system of responsibility for decision making which would be binding on all participants, so long as they supported the system. Those individuals, groups or political institutions which made up the total structure would have the right to secede. Each participating unit would have an absolute right to self-determination, to associate with the larger bodies, or not. Starting at the local level, Bakunin suggested as the basic political unit, the completely autonomous commune. The commune would elect all of its functionaries, law makers, judges, and administrators of communal property.
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/anarchist-federation-basic-bakunin
With the advent of the internet goods and services can be coordinated to where they are needed out the intervention of the state where needed with out the intervention of government. Hell this already true under capitalism.

I feeling I'm explaining communism to liberals, you and all like muh human nature. And its like you people are marxists but you don't seem to actually agree with Marx. An anarchist society is no different than highest stage of communism that marx thought of. All the difference is time of the implementation. And that's where I consider Marxists to be idealists as they naively belive the state to be capable of its own dissolution. Rather than in reality through its own structure reproducing it's own existence. Just like with capitalism those living under a state are inclined to view it as natural because it's the only way of organizing they know of, and anything else is considered a fantasy.

>>2493213
what a sausage party

>>2497816
>And that's where I consider Marxists to be idealists as they naively belive the state to be capable of its own dissolution. Rather than in reality through its own structure reproducing it's own existence.
but its not "the state" structure that reproduces itself but the class basis of its economics. a state is an organ for class rule, and with the working class as the ruling class the state can build the material foundation necessary to produce an economy of abundance, and with the abolition of scarcity the material basis of class differentiation is eliminated, and that state withers away, from a governance of coercion to an administration of surplus. its anything but idealist


<The Economic Basis of the Withering Away of the State

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/ch05.htm

<In the social production of their existence, men inevitably enter into definite relations, which are independent of their will, namely relations of production appropriate to a given stage in the development of their material forces of production. The totality of these relations of production constitutes the economic structure of society, the real foundation, on which arises a legal and political superstructure and to which correspond definite forms of social consciousness. The mode of production of material life conditions the general process of social, political and intellectual life. It is not the consciousness of men that determines their existence, but their social existence that determines their consciousness.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1859/critique-pol-economy/preface.htm

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>>2497825
Nice in theory but we have yet to see a situation in which this has happened and in fact we seen in most cases the return to capitalism.

>>2497830
i would expect here an alternative(non-idealist) explanation for how the state reproduces itself that isn't economic. how is the structure supposed to do that?

>>2493952
anarchism lasted for less than a year
USSR lasted for 70 years

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>>2497835
>non-idealist
I don't know what you mean by that, but the workers aren't allowed to organize their farms and factories outside the state. The system is set up so that the idea of self abolishing is a pipe dream, case in point the Soviet Union. The bureaucracts had a higher standard of living especially the top level ones than your average soviet citizen and because of that just like the capital there is a material interest in keeping the status quo. For an average soviet citizen to get anywhere they had to join the party and not just that but also tow the party line or risk expulsion. From there they had make the right connections to get conformable jobs, and that means not going against the bureaucracy and brown nosing higher level bureaucracts. And it was the same higher level bureaucracts that wanted and benefited off of Perestroika and eventual liberalization of the Soviet Union because they had the connections and the money to buy off the state assets and convert them to captial. That's how the post Soviet nations got there oligarchs.

>>2497852
Anarchism had to be crushed the soviet union dissolved because of its own internal contradictions.

>>2497879
>I don't know what you mean by that
arent you the one who called marxists idealist? you just gave an economic explanation.

so how does anarchist state abolition differ from this? where are the anarchist not-states? we have yet to see a situation in which this has happened and in fact we seen in most cases the return to capitalism.

what is the non-idealist anarchist theory for how to get rid of the state and keep it gone?

>>2493215

It's kind of a given that implementing anarchism means doing away with large industrial nation states and returning to small decentralized tribal societies, thus there wouldn't be any need for something so huge and complex as a nuclear power plant. But that doesn't mean we would have to go all the way back to the stone age; we would still have access to our accumulated knowledge. Maybe a small tribe of people couldn't run a nuclear power plant but they could understand the basics of how electricity works and figure out how to make batteries and generators and light bulbs and radios and telephones and all kinds of other electrical devices.

I'm admittedly not the most astute reader of Marx but from what little I have gleaned of his work, he wasn't saying "this is my model for how to build our future industrial society and we must now go restructure our society to fit this model", but rather, "this is how I think societies will naturally progress in the future in response to the technological developments of the Industrial Revolution." It was meant to be a theory, not a blueprint.

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>>2497925
>It's kind of a given that implementing anarchism means doing away with large industrial nation states and returning to small decentralized tribal societies, thus there wouldn't be any need for something so huge and complex as a nuclear power plant. But that doesn't mean we would have to go all the way back to the stone age; we would still have access to our accumulated knowledge. Maybe a small tribe of people couldn't run a nuclear power plant but they could understand the basics of how electricity works and figure out how to make batteries and generators and light bulbs and radios and telephones and all kinds of other electrical devices.
>>2497948
>I'm admittedly not the most astute reader of Marx but from what little I have gleaned of his work, he wasn't saying "this is my model for how to build our future industrial society and we must now go restructure our society to fit this model", but rather, "this is how I think societies will naturally progress in the future in response to the technological developments of the Industrial Revolution." It was meant to be a theory, not a blueprint.
You will never be real anarchists

>>2497881
so we agree!

There were free people but we killed them and despoiled the earth so that way of life is closed off for the foreseeable future except for a small collection of tribes pushed out to the least productive lands. Enjoy your advanced society.

Not necessarily an answer to OP, but having been on the far-left for my entire adult life, and having run in anarchist, ML, and Trotskyist circles, I can confirm that the reasons for why people become anarchists is like night and day when compared to the reasons people become Marxists.

A lot of anarchists tend to become anarchists out of their own personal trauma. I’m serious. In every anarchist circle I’ve been in it always seems like about 80% of AFAB anarchists are CSA survivors (or they were SA’d by an ex-boyfriend when in college or something). So many anarchist comrades of any gender have CPTSD or other neurodivergent or mental health issues. Lots of former addicts too. They literally believe the entire world is their enemy because others have screwed them over so badly. Surprisingly though, the vast majority of anarchists happen to be white or white-passing/functioning. In American anarchist circles you’ll usually have the one or two token Hispanic comrades and in Canadian anarchist circles you’ll have the one or two token indigenous comrades. But overall, anarchist spaces are full of young white people who have very severe issues with trauma and who become anarchists mostly due to said unresolved trauma.

On the other hand, most of the Marxists I know (mostly MLs and Trots) became Marxists out of their desire to understand how capitalist society works. They usually start out as intellectually inquisitive and go from there. It’s not so much a personal thing but rather a desire to collectively work together for tangible solutions. Marxist circles tend to attract more people of colour, immigrants, and genuine working-class people because it presents them with a logical and intellectual explanation for why things are as fucked up as they are, and a scientific way for dealing with said fuckery. Plus, Marxist revolutions have a decent history of success whereas every anarchist revolution inevitably falls apart after a few years. That provides real inspiration to the oppressed rather than sheer fantasy.

Plus, if you ask a Marxist how they envision the future, they will usually cite real-world examples. Ask an anarchist the same thing and they will give you a very vague response and denounce you as an oppressor if you ask for them to elaborate. Anarchism is always argued with emotion, it seems.

>>2507836
My point is that anarchist circles are basically exclusive clubs of social misfits who base their politics on their trauma whereas Marxist circles are usually full of people who are actually marginalized who are looking for an intellectual explanation for why they’re so exploited.

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I'm not even dogmatically anti-authoritarian but the level of Dunning-Krugerite circlejerking ITT is insane

>>2507857
Contemporary "anarchists" have done more damage to the movement and history of anarchism than any stalinist repression has before. Contemporary "anarchism" is liberalism and socialdemocracy's attempt at usurping anarchism to turn it away from class struggle, material analysis and immanent critique towards bourgeoisie wars, intersectionality and cultural analysis among other horrid garbage. T

>A lot of anarchists tend to become anarchists out of their own personal trauma. I’m serious. In every anarchist circle I’ve been in it always seems like about 80% of AFAB anarchists are CSA survivors (or they were SA’d by an ex-boyfriend when in college or something). So many anarchist comrades of any gender have CPTSD or other neurodivergent or mental health issues. Lots of former addicts too. They literally believe the entire world is their enemy because others have screwed them over so badly.

I can't speak for other people, but anarchy was something that already made sense to me from the beginning when I was a young child - the idea that people can make decisions as a group without some leader or higher authority figure. Authority figures don't make sense to me and never did.

To envision an anarchist world all you have to do is envision what the world was like before the Neolithic Revolution, how humans lived for hundreds of thousands of years before they figured out how to grow crops and domesticate animals and build permanent agricultural settlements. Small tribes where everyone knows everyone and can govern themselves through direct arbitration and no central governing body. Obviously such a thing is not very feasible for a modern nation state with a population of hundreds of millions, or even a city with a population of a few thousand. Permanent human settlements eventually grow too large and complex to manage their affairs without some kind of hierarchy beginning to form out of necessity. Anarchy isn't a means, it is an end - anarchy was the original form of human governance that existed in a time when our species was so primitive that all humans across the Earth were more or less on equal footing. Technology fucked all that up because technology doesn't develop uniformly, it develops sporadically and randomly all over the world and it disrupts power dynamics and gives people advantages that they didn't have before and our technological progress has always vastly outpaced our social progress.

But eventually civilization could reach the point where maybe our social progress can finally catch up, or maybe some combination of technological and social progress could once again make it no longer necessary for humans to live in giant cities or have nations or borders or to treat land as property, humans would return to their rightful place as children of the earth rather than suzerains of it, just go find a spot somewhere and throw your Dragon Ball Z capsule house on the ground and you're all set. And when huge complex cities of millions of people are no longer necessary for humans to live and meet their needs, government will also cease to be necessary and tribal living and anarchy will return. And we'll be a lot happier because that's what our brains evolved for, humans were not meant to live like ants in an ant colony, we're a tribal species and we always have been.

>>2507891
>>2507899

I'm not gonna read all this dribble drabble but I'll just say that I'm not a Luddite and I don't think there is anything good or bad about technology, I think technology is what it is and it doesn't take sides. Humans can use technology to create a more egalitarian and dignified world for everyone, or they can use technology to create the most repressive authoritarian nightmare you could ever imagine, it's entirely up to how we choose to use it.

>>2493213
anarchist organizations always have power dynamics and hierarchies all they do is act like they don't exist thus often causing even worse abuses

>>2493213
The simplest accurate argument against anarchism is just that an anarchist society will be easily conquered by a non-anarchist society, so it doesn't matter how good anarchism is in theory. There's a reason why the majority of history's dominant institutions - militaries, governments, churches, corporations - are based on hierarchy. It's because hierarchy works to make an organization powerful. Not too much hierarchy, of course - you want ideas to be able to flow from the bottom to the top so that the organization does not start to stagnate and behave stupidly - but still a large amount of hierarchy compared to anarchy.
A theoretical society that cannot actually be implemented without being conquered within weeks or months unless it hides in deep mountains or jungles like a prey animal evading predators is pretty much useless except as a thought experiment.
>Marxism, OTOH, is scientific
Maybe Marx was, I don't know, haven't read him. Marxism as a movement is not particularly scientific. Marxists tend to have a remarkable talent at not learning from empirical observation. So do people who have all sorts of other ideologies, of course, but in any case it's clear to me that Marxism is not distinguished as a movement by any unusual degree of being scientific.

>>2507908

I can understand the nuclear weapons thing, but mass surveillance and data mining are not really technological problems, they're social problems. How do you bring about the "destruction" of mass surveillance techology? Uninvent video cameras? The technology is here to stay, there's nothing you can do about that. All you can do is come up with social solutions, public policy decisions to regulate how these technologies can and can't be used.

>>2497925
But the small tribal society would be soon conquered by big hierarchical societies, since the latter would be much more powerful. The small tribal society can exist in theory, but in practice it cannot exist for any long period of time. The only exceptions are if it becomes a vassal of some strong society, in which case it stops being actually anarchist, or if it ekes out an existence somewhere on the periphery where it is not worth conquering.

>>2507891
>towards space exploration, immortality and greater aspirations
>Tribal aspirations remain individualist deviations

Which of these sounds like a more individualist and petty dream to you?

To create a world where everyone has their basic needs met and be free to fulfill their humble human creative desires?

Or to create a world where quadillionaire tech titans can become immortal demigods and blast off into outer space to colonize the galaxy?

most of the people in this thread don't understand what anarchism actually is, and most people refuse to understand it, it is genuinely infuriating to read this

You don't. The anarchist's position is not a rational one, but an emotional one borne out of cowardice and the most willful and strident ignorance. Anarchists aren't worth convincing.

The thing you should think about is why you want power or why you are imposing authority to rule others. I know your argument because it's a child's belief; that authority is "just-so" and can be dictated without purpose or any actual wellspring of authority beyond the display of violence. Power is only useful if there is a moral argument for it. If the goal is to rule because you insist on it, no one has any reason to ever regard that. It does not require a great intellect to see how pointless such a world is.

If we weren't stupid, the political question would have a limited purview, and private life would not be state business. This doesn't prevent the government from establishing or facilitating sharing of the wealth, for the best interests of those involved and so we're not stuck in an interminable cycle of struggles and opportunism. We all know people like you do not want that; that for you this is about some impetuous and idiotic barking. All you do is managerialism. I really wish stupid people like you weren't allowed to lead. You're the inheritors of the cowardliness of the anarchists.

Is it too much for you to offer a single good reason why anyone should follow you? Are their personal interests in security and having food to eat met? That is the most basic condition of any socialist society. You can't have anything if people are starving or live with a knife at their throat. Managerialism insists on the knife at the throat, and only feeds the people the barest minimum while depleting anything else they would have to live for. Once sufficiently emaciated, managerialism kills off the surplus population without fail. It can't not do this. It doesn't matter if the managerialism is the eugenic creed or some other, equally ill-considered form of managerialism.

What you think of as "politics" is just a managerialist credo to justify some shitty power grab. You aren't ruling men. You're barking conceits at people and insisting anyone else should respect it. Until you can speak again of sharing the damned wealth, you don't stand for anything. The positions of communism in any form anyone should want are lost.

I've seen so much sniveling from internet Marxists about basic shit that is first year political knowledge or even something you would have learned in high school, if not for this complete garbage-tier education that insisted on turning the world into the shitshow we see today.

>>2507948
Its pointless running a discussion on this site, there is no metric to preventing retardation.

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>>2507942
>Which of these sounds like a more individualist and petty dream to you?

>To create a world where everyone has their basic needs met and be free to fulfill their humble human creative desires?


>Or to create a world where quadillionaire tech titans can become immortal demigods and blast off into outer space to colonize the galaxy?

>>2507950
the retardation of many on this website causes many reasonable positions to get reduced to super-strawmen, and then arguing based on that premise rather than actually learning about what the fuck they're arguing to form a real argument against it, if i want to argue against MLism, i can do so by reading what they believed, how it worked in practice, and its problems, but i might as well not, since there's no reason to when anyone will just pull out every singular imaginable insult, due to their minds being rotted

>>2507933
>But the small tribal society would be soon conquered by big hierarchical societies, since the latter would be much more powerful. The small tribal society can exist in theory, but in practice it cannot exist for any long period of time. The only exceptions are if it becomes a vassal of some strong society, in which case it stops being actually anarchist, or if it ekes out an existence somewhere on the periphery where it is not worth conquering.

This is why I don't think anarchy can happen on a widespread scale until some major technological development causes a major paradigm shift in the way humans live. For instance, imagine we develop pre-fabricated self-sufficient "smarthouses", you just unbox it somewhere with access to sunlight and water and watch it self-assemble and you've got a multi-bedroom house with electricity, plumbing, etc. When you're done with it, you just pack up your belongings and push the button and it disassembles itself and goes back in the box. The whole off-the-grid weirdo Slab City-type subculture I think would go nuts with something like that, there'd probably be like a whole mass exodus of people fed up with city life moving out into anarchist enclaves and communes in the middle of nowhere in their self-sufficient mobile homes, having drones deliver whatever random shit they might need to their doorstep.

>>2507823
>In every anarchist circle I’ve been in it always seems like about 80% of AFAB anarchists are CSA survivors (or they were SA’d by an ex-boyfriend when in college or something). So many anarchist comrades of any gender have CPTSD or other neurodivergent or mental health issues. Lots of former addicts too.

I mean…. yes? It's almost like anarchism appeals to the most hated and despised in society who have zero lifelines. Do you know how trauma makes it impossible for you to function according to capitalist norms? Or how having trauma alienates you from others? Have you ever spoken to a CSA survivor yourself?

You should try and re-enact a factory atmosphere, complete with the machinic onomathopeia while narrating the possibilities of progress. You're simultaneously doing political work and debunking the anarchist myth that Marxist-Leninist art is conservative. I'm serious.

>>2507955
Hierarchy in society exists for purposes. It is not arbitrarily defined nor can it be if it is to be functional. The arrangement of political offices of increasing rank can only persist if it is functional, and all of these offices incur an inherent cost. The primitive society couldn't arbitrarily start barking orders and declare that they have consuls and the whole apparatus that Rome built. Also, freedom from that Roman system was usually the reason why tribal societies fought against the Romans bitterly, while the people of the East usually didn't fight for long and fared little better than the primitive Gauls or Germans. Considering the Germans survived and eventually broke the Empire, despite their society being predominantly tribal and lacking any of the sophisticated hierarchy the Romans have, you probably should reconsider the shit coming out of your mouth.

Today, hierarchy is diffused on purpose, because doing this obscures any center of power that a resistant population would attack to free themselves. If you could assassinate POTUS and the justices on SCOTUS to change the world, everyone and their mother would want a shot at President Retard. If you're up against a faceless and cruel machine whose informants are crawling everywhere, with an unnerving ability to foment discord and turn people against each other, it is much more daunting. All of the ways this can be done were known to the Romans, and the smart Emperors were able to win power because they commanded the Roman mob and knew how to keep the Legions loyal. Every government, no matter how despotic, rules by making sure the subordinates are placated and set against each other, and by systematically shutting out those who are not in the political class.

When you look at the American apparatus today, it is ruled largely by fear and instigation rather than its very large and inefficient command structure. Remarkably few ghoulish people are able to instigate Americans so easily and clamp down on anyone who gets any idea that this country could be different. It is a far more effective despotism than anything European monarchical fags could make.

I don't know any serious anarchists who talk about imposing anarchy as a political system at the national level; it's kind of a given that if you want a return to anarchy, you have to eliminate the inequalities that give rise to the hierarchy to begin with, which is why I say that anarchy is an end and not a means. The state is like training wheels on a bicycle and eventually human progress may reach the point where we don't need the training wheels anymore. That's all.

It's communists who seem to be obsessed with shoving their ideology down everyone's throat as the universal solution to all problems, that all societies must convert to communism and the entire world must be communist, that communism is the future, etc. One of things that always drew me to the idea of anarchy is that it isn't really an ideology, because I hate ideology.

>>2493213
>They talk a good deal about intersectionality and anti-oppression, but when pressed on how to abolish those oppressive structures in society they have no clue.

Because they literally don't. Anarchists love fantasy because they have very little to nothing they can point to when it comes to proving that their ideas work in practice.

>>2507823
Most anarchists are neurodivergent because they don't fit in and see through the propaganda of capitalism and the state.

>>2507963

Gaul wasn't really a tribal society, they were a bunch of clans and villages with chieftains and elected councils, sort of like Norse society. They had horses, they had iron weapons, they had ships, they raided and pillaged, etc. Small nomadic tribal societies were long gone in Western Europe by the time of the Iron Age.

>>2507823
>>2507840
Most American "anarchists" are only interested in running soup kitchens. There's a reason they prioritize what's essentially just charity work over actual organizing.

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>>2493213
That decentralization leads to mob based violence and dismissal/cancel culture. That dencentralised systems typically end up far more authoritarian and arbitrary in dishing out said authoritarian violence, than central managed control systems.
Look at how CHAZ descended into vigilante and decentralised authoritarianism and then murder almost immediately. Look at the Cultural Revolution, people were given largely complete grassroots democratic freedoms and instantly used them to carry out petty grudges, vendettas, and petty hooliganism.
https://thepointmag.com/politics/dismissal/
There is a 99% chance that any form of "anarchism" will turn out to be mob violence directed by the hands of charismatic narcissists and sociopaths. Look at the result of pretty the vast majority of Anarkiddie communes from the 60s-90s, they pretty much all became sex abuse farms controlled by a charismatic/strong willed cluster B who used their charisma and aura to gain yesmen to bully everyone else.
>>2507823
>A lot of anarchists tend to become anarchists out of their own personal trauma. I’m serious. In every anarchist circle I’ve been in it always seems like about 80% of AFAB anarchists are CSA survivors (or they were SA’d by an ex-boyfriend when in college or something).
I mean, no shock here, Punk and Anarchism has always been the culture and ideology of Borderline Personality Disorder.
Every time I get dragged to a punk gig or squat by BPDs I know, my eyes can't help but roll out of my fucking head by how 99% of people there check off every BPD diagnostic criteria in the most stereotypical way imaginable.

>>2508033
"BPD" is just autism + narcissism + trauma

>>2507979
Is it really that? Or is it because they're all closeted authoritarians in their own right and flock to "anti-authoritarian" spaces because it enables them to be authoritarian towards others?

>>2507948
How about you explain it to us then? Oh enlightened one. From my experience anarchism is just white people called sock or spoon or whatever squating in abandoned buildings and wokescolding you for not considering that to be revolutionary praxis

>>2508043
You're conflating Bushwick trust fund kids with legitimate anarchists.

>>2508042
Not ChinAnon (>>2508033), but you're literally describing BPD. People with BPD are full blown control freaks.

>>2507840
Reminds me of what we were saying in the Catholicism thread: people convert to Catholicism out of intellectual curiosity whereas people become born-again Evangelicals simply out of MUH FEELS.

>>2508046
That might be, but it's not like the more serious less trustfundy anarchists I know are that different really. Where are these "real" anarchists and how are they different from Sock and Spoon?

>>2508033

Aren't people with BPD typically people pleasers with abandonment issues who never want to say no to anyone? That sounds like the opposite of anarchy/punk to me.

>>2508058
Sometimes but most of the time they're control freaks. Like they're so afraid of losing the person they have that they go overboard to keep that person with them.

>>2508059

I feel like if you were going to pathologize the spirit of punk rock into a psychiatric illness, a better fit would probably be something like oppositional defiance disorder.

>>2508060
I'm not ChinAnon so you'll have to ask them.

>>2508033
>That decentralization leads to mob based violence and dismissal/cancel culture. That dencentralised systems typically end up far more authoritarian and arbitrary in dishing out said authoritarian violence, than central managed control systems.

Proof?


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