Most MSM, AI LLM trained on shit, resources online point to the fake narrative that ukraine (the borderlands, formerly wild lands or dikoe pole) has some kind of lineage tied to Kievan Rus and that it was not entirely a fabrication by the USSR. It is a fake nation that speaks a russian dialect and fabricated its own history and identity. Give me books to prove this right because it is the truth, give me books and resources, english russian whatever,
What the hell? How is Ukrainian identity "fake" any more than any other ethnic or national identity?
Котле́та по-ки́ївськи. In seriousness, Crimea is the home of the Tatars, Donetsk was founded by a Welshman, and Lugansk was built by an Englishman.
Ergo neither Russian nor Ukrainian has any right to the land, fuck your anti-Communistic bourgeois nationalistic war, fuck the Nazis on both sides and that includes YOU, OP.
May the workers on all sides either lay down their arms or turn them on their capitalist masters.
>>2514422Piss off Zigger.
You don't need to dig through books, just historical maps, for example look up how Odessa was founded
A nation is primarily a community, a definite community of people.
This community is not racial, nor is it tribal. The modern Italian nation was formed from Romans, Teutons, Etruscans, Greeks, Arabs, and so forth. The French nation was formed from Gauls, Romans, Britons, Teutons, and so on. The same must be said of the British, the Germans and others, who were formed into nations from people of diverse races and tribes.
Thus, a nation is not a racial or tribal, but a historically constituted community of people.
On the other hand, it is unquestionable that the great empires of Cyrus and Alexander could not be called nations, although they came to be constituted historically and were formed out of different tribes and races. They were not nations, but casual and loosely-connected conglomerations of groups, which fell apart or joined together according to the victories or defeats of this or that conqueror.
Thus, a nation is not a casual or ephemeral conglomeration, but a stable community of people.
>>2514422i dont remember sources but in my research its real. ukrainians were russian peasants that moved into polish cities while russia and poland were trading territory back and forth during ongoing urbanization. the aristocracy spoke polish and the workers russian but also some of them were polish immigrants so commerce ended up being done a hybrid of both and after a few hundred years it became a distinct entity.
this makes it a historically constituted community of people with a common language territory economic life and psychological makup. it may seem like they aren't because theres so much russian influence and the languages are similar, which is very different than something like kazakhistan or estonia, but if ukraine isn't a nation then neither is belarus or moldova
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1913/03a.htm >>2514422Look up Ukrainian's people republic, it preceded the soviet republic
>>2514449A nation state is an arbitrary political demarcation of territory. Nationalism and nation states are a rather recent phenomenon that began in the 18th century when various European powers began declaring themselves nation states and defining their national identities by some arbitrary set of ethnic/linguistic/religious standards and drawing new lines on all the maps.
>ethnostate shit
Never change
The dictionary definition of nation is "a group of people united by common descent, language, or culture." but you can see the problems with this 18th century idea still being used in the modern era where people move around the world much more freely than they did in the 18th century. Nations have populations composed of immigrants from all over the world and the cultural demographics of these nations bear little resemblance to what they were when they first declared themselves be nations, to the point where it's now considered rude to even imply that someone's heritage has any bearing on their nationality. Maybe it's time to retire the word "nation" and come up with something else.
>>2514499The main thing constituting a nation is not spooks like descent or culture, but a common language, history and economic activity among the population. NAF
>>2514465And it was a German/Austro-Hungarian puppet state
>>2514499I think rejecting the entire concept is way too far. There are many situations in which we realise that our original conception of something is flawed, but never should it mean pretending it doesn't exist. Similar logic is applied to gender where people, once they realise that gender isnt some objective biological fact, leap to an equally rediculous idea that gender "doesn't exist".
Nations exist and national rights also should be protected. A country is not just a random arbitrary line drawn in the earth. These things matter, even beyond the interests of the nation state. America (and so too in the past the Soviet Union) is a nation that doesn't represent ethnic continuity but still contains the national idea. When we say that immigrants count as American, we are saying that they are capable of embodying that same idea.
Ukrainian nationalism was created by German and Austro-Hungarian imperialists to create an artifical rupture in Russia. Hence why each "independent" Ukraine has only ever been a German client regime.
>>2514508The origin of a thing is but one facet of it. More relevant is the nature (especially the material reality) of Ukrainian nationalism today, which is tied to fascism and certainly represents the regressive end of global politics. Ukrainian nationalists are on the side of imperialism
>>2514507
>doesn't represent ethnic continuity but still contains the national idea>the national ideaAnd what is the idea of America? Is there a unanimous agreement on what America is supposed to be? It seems to me like, national identity is defined entirely by whichever political party happens to be in charge at the time.
>>2514511I dont think the nature of a thing to change destroys or precludes it
Furthermore, the whole idea of a homogenous-cultured nation state is a historical fiction to begin with - these nations were all multicultural regions from day one with a bunch of completely different languages and customs, they just decided that one of the languages is now "the national language" and some of the cultures are now considered part of "our nation" and everyone else is not.
>>2514506Yes ? Shows the soviet didn't make it up, and the fact that the soviets kept it shows that Germans didn't make it up either, it's fairly clear that amongst the people of Ukraine, even at that time, they felt they had a seperate national identity, obviously the Germans used this against the Russians to further their interests but it doesn't mean that no one called themselves Ukrainians before 1918, obviousmly saying that Ukrainian indentity existed in the Kievan Rus is nonsense, but so it saying that Russian identity existed back then as well, nationalism was only born in the 18th century with the French Revolution, and even being generous, you can only date it to the end of the middle ages with Joan of Arc.
>>2514504>The main thing constituting a nation is not spooks like descent or culture, but a common language, history and economic activity among the population. NAFThe Vatican City is a nation. The Confederate States of America was a nation for a few years then it wasn't. Texas used to be a nation called Mexico then it became a nation called Texas then it became part of the US, then the Confederacy, then the US again, and to this day they still complain about there being too many Mexicans there and can't decide if they want to be another new nation or not. It's arbitrary.
>>2514528thats why its not just language. nations form because of capitalism which is why a common economic life is one of the criteria. this defines a nation as something with a definite historical continuity, as stalin says a historically constituted community of people
>>2514499>18th century ideanations are real economic entities and the basis for both global capitalism and its sublation by international communism. you cant just declare nations to be over without overcoming the mode of production that reproduces them
>>2514545Those are states. A nation is a group of people. For example the UKKK is a state while Wales is a nation that currently does not have a state because it has been subsumed within the wicked monarchical UKKK
>>2514569is england a nation?
>>2514572English are kkkrakkka kkkolonizer$ so no. Welsh are bipoc. The British Isles belong to the indigenous Celts, read Gonzalo.
Just to be clear, despite my belief that nations are arbitrary political demarcations dreamed up by European racists in the 1700s, I think Ukraine has just as much of a right to be an arbitrary political demarcation as Russia does.
I can link to an article from 1881 from Kremenets in what is today "Western Ukraine" about reactions of many locals to the "ukrainophile" movement out of which "Ukraine" came to be. In short, most locals identified themselves to be Russian and weren't enthusiastic about "Ukrainian" identity. It all changed after the Civil War and "Ukrainization" started by Lenin and continued by Stalin for some time (but then stopped and reversed in some places).
Article link:
https://ru.wikisource.org/wiki/Украйнофильство_с_его_затеями_о_двутекстных_учебниках_(Гогоцкий)(naturally, you have to know Russian or use translator software. I'd recommend to use some offline translator to not get marked by NSA or something like that)
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