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File: 1760666837512.jpeg (10.06 KB, 237x300, IMG_0695.jpeg)

 

I was curious to know what you guys thought about liberalism. Do you think it’s still opium of the masses take for example Donald Trump is a crypto fascist like what he did in Iran

File: 1760667333832.png (91.64 KB, 1920x1080, ClipboardImage.png)

this question sounds malformed

word salad libtard nonsense

>liberalism
Simultaneously overdefined and underdefined. Ask a twitter or reddit liberal and it's basically "diet" naziism, ask a libpol liberal or a liberal on the street and they'll be pretty much an ancom without the vocabulary to see it as such.

Neoliberalism is more concretely defined and thus easier to oppose and actually mean it in a coherent way.
>Do you think it’s still opium of the masses take for example Donald Trump is a crypto fascist like what he did in Iran
Have some water and take a nap, OP, you're having a stroke.

>>2524342
Liberalism is all bourgeois thoughts and things. Liberalism is all deviation from science of Marxism-Leninism. "Neoliberalism" is a phony term invented by petty-bourgeois westoids to replace imperialism.

"Liberalism" and "conservatism" don't actually mean anything

as i trace here:
>>2522321
>>2523736
liberalism appears to have its origins in the english civil war (1642-1651) where movements like "the levellers" (1646-1649) and "the diggers" (1649-1651) split from the initial "roundhead" (parliamentarian) movement into something more radical. a founder of the levellers, john lilburne, spoke of "ancient liberties" preceding the "norman yoke" of 1066; these ancient liberties similarly affirmed by the poet john milton in his sonnet 12 (1645).

these "ancient liberties" are noted in an early form of british common law, in a document known as the "magna carta" (1215) which limited the powers of the king by concession of his power to a counsel (what is later formalised as parliament). the compromise made by king henry iii was due to a class war between existing royalty and ambitious barons, so the sharing of power was promoted. neither upheld the magna carta however and so it was made non-viable. that is, until 1297, when a revised version of the document was officiating by edward i, in a now existing parliament. the ancient liberties refer to the city of london, which was protected by a long-missing chater by william the conquerer (1067) wherein he promises to preserve the "ancient liberties" such as that existed before edward the confessor (the last saxon king). the ancient liberties stipulated in the magna carta therefore are the laws of the anglo-saxon people, which were largely unwritten (but what was written concerned the custom of "wergild" or "blood money" for compensation according to rank, which is synonymous with germanic law on the continent, and even the islamic law of "diyah").

in the english civil war then, there was the explicit framing of the english throwing out a foreign king to restore an ancient order, and from this, a law of liberty. after cromwell's succession, he established a republic, but twainfold, persecuted the levellers and diggers. the original class war which summoned the magna carta was now completed, by the eradication of the king in place for parliamentary sovereignty, without any mystic appeals to an antediluvian paradise which was without concern to rebel leadership. the republic fell in 1660, with the restoration of the absolute monarchy, yet not too long after, there was the "glorious revolution" (1688) whereby william of orange took over the monarchy and established its constitution with a bill of rights (1689). in this milieu we get john locke (1690) who establishes his theory of liberalism, often referencing the freedom of the new world as an analog of what was once the character of the earth (a mythic "ancient liberty"). john locke obviously goes on to inspire american thinking, with the "declaration of independence" (1776) speaking of the "consent of the governed" (the so-called lockean "social contract", compared as against rousseau's "general will") and jefferson's infamous slogan "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" being a simple conversion of locke's formula of "life, liberty, property".

as has been said before, the american revolution is essentially lockean while the french revolution is inspired by rousseau. we can say then that liberalism began as a revolution against monarchy by its deepest roots in a burgeoning bourgeoisie seeking supremacy by parliamentary right. the national assembly of 1789 also gives us the modern political spectrum of left and right (bourgeoisie vs. aristocracy; republicanism vs. restoration, liberal vs. conservative, etc.) a very early split comes in america between jefferson's democratic-republican party versus the federalist party (1800), where the federalists accuse the republicans of being jacobins, seeking to resist religion and the rich. this conflict is clearly between liberalism and conservatism.

liberalism then is the bourgeois creed of the political left, canonised by the constitutional governments of britain (1688), the united states (1776) and republican france (1789): the red, white and blue (🇬🇧-🇺🇲-🇨🇵). liberalism from these movements may be summed up in its ideals of "liberty, equality and fraternity", or "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

File: 1760701879908.jpg (117.5 KB, 1200x690, john-locke-portrait.jpg)

this article also claims that locke's ideas have direct succession with the levellers:
>Professor Ashcraft also shows how Locke and Shaftesbury began to build up, even consciously, a neo-Leveller movement, elaborating doctrines very similar to those of the Levellers. Locke’s entire structure of thought in his Two Treatises of Government, written in 1681–1682 as a schema for justifying the forthcoming Whig revolution against the Stuarts, was an elaboration and creative development of Leveller doctrine — the beginnings in self-ownership or self-propriety, the deduced right to property and free exchange, the justification of government as a device to protect such rights, and the right of overturning a government that violates, or becomes destructive of, those ends. One of the former Leveller leaders, Major John Wildman, was even close to the Locke-Shaftesbury set during the 1680s.
https://brewminate.com/liberty-and-property-the-levellers-and-locke/
which seems entirely plausible. so then, the birth of classical liberalism also coincides with the birth of english political economy (with william petty in 1662 appearing to directly inspire locke in 1682, in the mixture of labour and nature constituting a fixed property in possession).

liberalism does a great job at demolishing feudal structures

the first people to call themselves "liberals" were the "cortes of catiz" (1810-1814), a spanish parliament which rebelled against their napoleonic occupation, and of whom created a constitution in 1812, limiting the monarch by the decree of parliamentary sovereignty by rightful legitimacy, with a division of powers between legislative, judiciary and execitive branches, like in france and the united states (which both officiated their constitutions in 1789); this tripartite system was formalised by montesquieu (1748). according to emil kirchner (1988), the term "liberalism" came to be circulated in english after the napoleonic wars (1815), although no direct source for this claim appears to be substantiated anywhere (he draws me down a rabbit hole of klaus von beyme's work, yet it cannot be confirmed). from what i can verify, the term "liberalism" appears in english in english with the translation and publishing of andré vieusseux's "essay on liberalism" (1823), in which andré warns of the scourge of "universal liberalism". he says that the new split of parties is between "stability" and "innovation". he says that the innovators are "generally known" as "liberals", which we have traced back to 1810 in spain. andré describes differeny groups; "constitutionalism" "jacobinism", "girondonism", "bonapartism", "illuminism" and "carbonarism". he claims that liberalism is not a sect, but is a unity of different sects for a common end. he claims that its leaders seek republicanism, and that liberalism has its exclusive origins in france (an ignorant view of its prehistory and enlightenment motive). are even the americans not themselves a republican people? where he is at least fair is in the following chapter, where he says that an issue of liberalism is that it is not a system unto itself, but is a undefined rebellion. thus was and is the task of various philosophers; of applying a positive concept to "freedom" (liberty), as we see in kant (1797) and hegel (1817). first is kant:
>The freedom of the act of volitional choice is its independence of being determined by sensuous impulses or stimuli. This forms the negative conception of the free-will. The positive conception of freedom is given by the fact that the will is the capability of pure reason to be practical of itself.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/ethics/kant/morals/ch03.htm
the positive concept resolves itself into the notorious "categorical imperative", or the unity of freedom and necessity in the synthesis of "duty" (the unconditional which thereby acts as an "end in itself"). hegel also perceives the relation of freedom and necessity:
<Necessity is blind only so long as it is not understood […] The truth of necessity is, therefore, Freedom…
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sl/slactual.htm
hegel further sees the absolute idea as a unity mediated by self-relating negativity between its constituents, the same as his concept of sovereignty (1820), which is the unity of the state, as it accords from the separation of powers. here, the concept is only a medium, not a self-positing substance, such as it is in marx's humanist communism (1843-1875) where the unity of man and nature sublates into a single self-determination, rather than preserving its constitutive attributes as internally contradictory. hegel's unity of the state occurs executively (i.e. constitutional monarchy) while kant as a republican gave special emphasis to "law" as the basis of freedom, and so can be seen to hold faith in the legislative branch of the tripartite system (montesquieu, 1748). kant also suggests a global government structure (1795) to mediate between conflicts for the sake of "perpetual peace". kant then can be seen to be the grandfather of the united nations, which itself mirrored the 1789 declaration of human rights with its 1948 declaration of universal human rights, shifting the scope of the nation to an international body. so then, the "law" appears inescapable, but as yet, kant was not simply an authoritarian, as someone like ayn rand may imagine (1971), but saw enlightenment as a stage of maturity which required rational self-possession (1784):
>Enlightenment is the human being’s emergence from his self-incurred minority. Minority is inability to make use of one’s own understanding without direction from another.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/ethics/kant/enlightenment.htm
and thus why he says each man must find his own law:
<The laws of freedom, as distinguished from the laws of nature, are moral laws […] A person is a subject who is capable of having his actions imputed to him. Moral personality is, therefore, nothing but the freedom of a rational being under moral laws; and it is to be distinguished from psychological freedom as the mere faculty by which we become conscious of ourselves in different states of the identity of our existence. Hence it follows that a person is properly subject to no other laws than those he lays down for himself, either alone or in conjunction with others.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/ethics/kant/morals/ch03.htm
thus, to be moral, one must be free to establish the subjective necessity of moral law, as it may be rationally comprehended, and without this, a man is not even a person, for they are inherently unfree (irrational):
>A thing (object) is what is incapable of being the subject of imputation. Every object of the free activity of the will, which is itself void of freedom, is therefore called a thing (res corporealis).
https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/ethics/kant/morals/ch03.htm
this appears to be an identical reasoning to that of aristotle; that if one cannot be self-possessed of reason (free-will), then he becomes the object of another, and so may be held as a "natural slave" by his master(s). this relates closely to locke's classical liberalism, as i have stated previously: >>2511621
and so kant is indeed a liberal, the same as hegel - and both have theories of positive and negative freedom, a counter-point to andré vieusseaux's point that liberalism is without any concept of itself. it has no single system, but still possesses its own systems of thinking, in accordance with realising universal freedom for all men.

>>2524562
Wrong. Look at "united kingdom." Only Communism is good at abolishing feudalism

>>2526512
Didn't do bad at abolishing itself either

>>2526541
Wrong. Communism didnt abolish itself. Trotskyite liberals abolished Communism in russia

There's a funny story about liberalism (people lynching an early Dutch politician and taking trophies from the dead body)
<De Witt was a liberal republican and a political ally of the faction that supported Spinoza's ideas on free speech. After the Dutch Republic was invaded by French troops, de Witt was blamed and forced to resign. He and his brother were subsequently murdered by an angry mob.
<Spinoza was so horrified by the violence that he was reportedly prevented from going to the scene of the massacre to post a sign calling the perpetrators "the ultimate of barbarians" (ultimi barbarorum).
<This event is believed to have prompted Spinoza to write his Political Treatise, a text in which he grapples with the issues of mob violence and political instability
and later Walter Benjamin wrote about the idea of 'divine violence', and even later Zizek:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/335026588_Benjamin_and_Spinoza_Divine_Violence_and_Potentia

File: 1760977147086.jpg (120.71 KB, 832x553, barons-magnacarta.jpg)

as we have uncovered, liberal politics has its focus on establishing a constitutional government whereby power in the state is shared between its districts, by the rightful sovereignty of popular consent. here are some of the earliest constitutional texts in history:

Spain: Decreta of León (1188)
England: Magna Carta (1215)
Hungary: Golden Bull (1222)

we can see the prehistory of liberalism occurs in the 13th century, where with the decreta (1188) it was only a temporary counsel of nobility, and was summarily dissolved. the magna carta (1215) appears as an appeal by royalty to the barons to keep peace by sharing power, enshrining a makeshift form of parliament into function; this did not last however and the magna carta was scrapped, til it was re-written and made statutory in 1297, within the english parliament. the golden bull (1222) had a wider influence and limited the executive to the legislative (jus resistendi; "right to resist") where it concerned the king's violation of the law. various rights were established, but like the magna carta, mostly concerning the nobility. this period then can be clearly seen as a class war leading to the eventual democratisation of the state, with these aristocratic rebellions building to bourgeois revolution.

>>2524381
>marxist-leninism
Liberal nonsense, China is actually existing Marxist-stirnerist-maoist-dengism.

/leftypol/ under disguise,lol

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marx in speaking of primitive accumulation (capital vol. 1, chapter 28) cites various laws passed by english parliament to force vagrants, vagabonds and beggars to work. this he connects to the rise of capitalism and so a burgeoning bourgeoisdom:

The Vagabonds Act (1530)
The Vagabonds Act (1547)
The Vagabonds Act (1572)

he also speaks of how the clearing of the estates and confiscation of church property accelerated things. this begins by a notorious law, which established the church of england (or anglican church), and continues thereon:

Act of Supremacy (1534)
Suppression of Religious Houses Act (1535)
Suppression of Religious Houses Act (1539)

by 1541, the former monastic property now became property of the state and much was privatised under the signage of various individuals. so then, this was theft, reappropriated as private property. marx also perceives more capitalist prehistory by a medieval statute:

Ordinance of Labourers (1349)

this law was in response to the black death (which raised wages to their highest level in european history) and so the law lowered wages and established the mandatory sentence that anyone under 60 must work.

>>2524445
elaborate

chris hedges on the revolutionary legacy of john milton (1608-1674)

Booooooooomp

>>2524222
>I was curious to know what you guys thought about liberalism.
Classical liberalism was certainly a historically progressive movement in its time, promoting equality and freedom for ordinary citizens. But it hit a wall under capitalism, and those promises could never fully materialize. The liberal project stopped short of challenging the system that produces inequality in the first place. Now it mostly functions as a neutered status quo ideology, a tool the ruling class uses to keep things running smoothly while the working class stays in its place voting or protesting non-violently.

>>2530920
so "true liberalism has never been tried"?

File: 1762193722367.jpeg (41.34 KB, 508x603, coke.jpeg)

edward coke wrote "petition of rights" (1628) which limited the powers of the king in his subjection of taxation. in this petition is also the advocacy to not be falsely imprisoned ("habeas corpus", drafted in 1640, but which was put into law in 1679). habeas corpus had precedence in older documents such as the "assize of clarendon" (1166) and "magna carta" (1215). magna carta was thematic in building coke's case for "the rule of law" (what later becomes parliamentary, or legislative sovereignty). the magna carta also played a role in the propaganda of the levellers (e.g. john lilburne's "englands birth-right justified", 1645). we can see the roots of liberalism go back to this, then.

Bump

>>2524342
>>2524381
Read John Locke you morons

Bump

There's yet to be a serious archeology of the liberal tradition from first principles and its earliest self conscious incarnations in Hobbes and Rousseau through its decline in the western 90s (although Adam Curtis has certainly tried his best to detail it through cultural and emotional history). It furthermore seems to me that nobody has yet really gone to show how explicitly and consciously indebted the socialist tradition, from the Utopian French to Cuba and Ho Chi Minh, was to the American Republicanist model in particular. To answer your question though OP, the real truth of the matter is that nobody really seems to know, and few are really willing to admit this. The most typical and still popular critiques of liberalism (all of which, I should say, I basically agree with) never go far enough as to deal with the social contract problem or meaningfully offer a way to remodel liberal and capitalist individualism: which, as much as I'd like to probably throw away, clearly is not going to go anywhere. Until someone is able to do this, we'll be stuck in the same place we've been for about a lifetime now, at least here in the West.

>>2549169

This is one of the reasons why 'western civilization' is an ideological obstacle to sustainable socialism, and why socialism will not take hold in those regions until long after 'the west' has been destroyed.

I opine once again that socialism must not be conceived as the completion of the bourgeois revolution & progress beyond it; Instead it must be conceived as the negation of the bourgeois revolution, & progress in a different direction.

One potential means to do this is to look for moral & ideological precursors to socialism not in christianity & liberalism but rather in mohism & legalism. Its large project to be sure, and will take many years of (dialectical) work to formalize into something consistent, clear & formally outlined.

>>2549169
an issue is that "liberalism" is defined ipso facto (i.e. "liberalism" is a 19th century signifier). the earliest text i could find which references "liberalism" directly is andré vieusseux's "essay on liberalism" (1823), which i provide citation of here: >>2526253
his claim is that these "innovators" lack a cohesive theory of their own movement. they are not guided by a positive belief in liberty, but a negative belief against "stability". i then attempt to provide german idealist sources of a positive freedom, which appears linked to moral law and thus the liberal precedence of the supremacy of the legislative branch, as we see in england (i.e. "the rule of law", which evolves from habeas corpus to universal human rights). yet, kant still sees that for one to be free is not to be merely subject to law (e.g. dictatorship) but to submit oneself to the moral law as their own reason intuits it. thus, kant attempts to combine freedom and necessity, in what is later approximated by hegel. the earliest liberal ideas stress liberty and this seems to be its own end. yet there is the capitalist turn as smith identifies it (1776) between the class interest of the worker and the capitalist, where profits and wages compete against each other. the rise of socialism comes from.the french radicals, with pierre leroux first defining "socialism" twofold; saint-simonism and republicanism (i.e. liberty, fraternity, equality). proudhon had personal antagonism with leroux yet appears consistent in this republican idea (proudhon in 1849 revealing that his 3 intellectual "masters" were adam smith, hegel and the bible). marx on the other hand seems to have favoured saint-simonism (e.g. "the administration of things") and so came against the french republicans, with his theory of freedom (e.g. 1844 manuscripts) being the positive concept of humanism (communism) where contradictions end.

>>2524222
RELIGION is the opiate of the masses as Marx originally stated.
You're much more likely to get a liberal on your side than you are a religious person, at least in the west.
Look at the average American religious prole - they will vote against all of their class interests, knowingly, because of abortion.

>>2524381
>science of Marxism-Leninism
how to tell someone you don't understand or like science, marxism or leninism

>>2549169
>was to the American Republicanist model in particular.
imho this is also the secret sauce to talking to burgers abt socialism, every critique they've been taught was also something absolute monarchs said about the american revolution(muh huemon nature, republics only work on a small scale, muh democracy equals mob violence,muh divine hierarchy,etc)


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