Question for “Christian anarchists”:
Why do you deny Jesus came to earth to establish a government? Why do you act as if religion wasn’t fully intertwined with the state and all religious institutions were de facto government institutions, and that the Church in which Jesus established was meant to be a government?
If not, what did Jesus leave behind? A Bible that wasn’t fully compiled and finalized until centuries after His death by… the Catholic/Orthodox Church?
And yes, the Church is both a spiritual AND earthly authority, so please don’t come at me with the “Jesus was only against earthly hierarchies not spiritual ones” cope.
Read Tolstoy idiot.
>>2526429He wasn’t a Church historian but a fiction writer with a cult. Similar to L Ron Hubbard.
More reason all leftists should convert to Islam. Qu’ran ascribes no government and is very anti-hierarchy.
Quakers are the real Christians and they are anarchists, so.
>>2526473Islam isn’t just Quran. It’s also the Hadith.
god kingdom is in heaven not on earth.
simple as.
>>2526500Why did Christ establish a hierarchical Church on Earth then? Are you a agnostic who denies the material world has any importance?
>>2526475Based on what? Show me your historical sources that prove Quakerism was the original Church. Why did Quakerism originate in Britain in the 17th century then, if it’s allegedly ancient?
God used to be real but he’s not anymore, we didn’t just kill God the Son on the cross, God the father and Holy Spirit are dead too, equally dead on the Cross, none escaped death
>>2526524*Gnostic not agnostic
Jesus was not an authority figure or a person of status, nor was he priest or a religious scholar nor even a novitiate to any formal religious order; he was a nobody, a pauper, an itinerant worker, a homeless drifter. His friends were slaves and beggars and thieves and prostitutes, the lowest of the low in society.
>>2526532Governments and states can’t be formed by the oppressed?
What is a DoP supposed to be, then?
>>2526540The governments/states that formed out of Christianity came hundreds of years after Jesus' death and their beliefs/philosophy bore very little resemblance to anything that Jesus ever espoused.
>>2526551So what did Jesus leave behind if not a Church, that was a hierarchical governing institution? Jesus certainly didn’t leave a Bible.
Read the Book of Acts you fucking Mary worshipper.
>>2526475If Quakerism is the “true” Christianity, how come we see zero Quakers or sects resembling Quakers in the Middle East? Why are nearly all Christians in the MENA Eastern or Oriental Orthodox with some Eastern Catholics and a few remaining Nestorians (Church of the East)? Why do the Apostolic churches like Antioch and Armenia have a very different theology to Quakerism?
>>2526565Quakerism was only able to thrive because the Quakers fled to America and had a yet-to-be-conquered frontier to settle and practice their faith in, a "free space" so to speak. And even in America I think they tended to get run out of wherever they settled for their refusal to participate in wars. There was no "free space" after the Roman Catholic Church rose to power and wiped out all other Christian sects and persecuted Jews and any other unbelievers. It wasn't until Islamic empires conquered the region that people could once again freely practice other religious faiths to some degree, as Islam was much more lenient about this at the time than the Christian church was.
>>2526573How do you know Quakerism was the original Church? Show the historical evidence, not just “muh feels”.
Also, there are other religious minorities in the MENA that survived for centuries. Mizrahi Jews, Druze, Yazidis, Mandeans, etc. Why did they survive but the “Quaker original Christians” did not?
>>2526565Because American Protestants like pretending white Europeans started Christianity and have never heard of Churches that exist outside the western paradigm. They don’t even know Central Asia, Mongolia, and parts of China used to be Christian (Nestorian heretics but still Christian) 100s of years before Christianity was fully taken up by Europe.
>>2526598The Book of Acts describes Quakerism. Early Christianity was a combination of Quakerism and Pentecostalism and had nothing to do with Catholicism.
>>2526598Oh I wasn't the one who said it was the original church, I assumed that was hyperbole or just shitposting. Obviously Quakers were not the original Christian church, nobody knows what the original Christian church was because Christianity didn't begin as a formal religious doctrine, it was a bunch of different sects with their own versions and interpretations of the gospel and they were all driven underground or wiped out by the Roman Catholic church who had their own true interpretation which became the only acceptable form of Christianity in the world for hundreds of years. I will say that out of all the extant sects of Christianity in Western society, the Quakers seem to be the most closely aligned with the actual teachings and message of Jesus.
>>2526622This is a joke, right? Pentecostalism is a 20th-century AMERICAN invention. Where are all the Palestinian, Lebanese, Syrian, Iraqi, Armenian, and Egyptian Pentecostals?
>>2526624>I will say that out of all the various well-known Christian sects, the Quakers are probably the most closely aligned with the actual teachings and message of Jesus.Prove it using historical evidence. Cite sources.
>>2526628>Prove it using historical evidence. Cite sources.Strong commitment to pacificism, charity, and simple living.
>>2526627>nobody knows what the original Christian church was because Christianity didn't begin as a formal religious doctrine, it was a bunch of different sects with their own versions and interpretations of the gospel and they were all driven underground or wiped out by the Roman Catholic church who had their own true interpretation which became the only acceptable form of Christianity in the world for hundreds of years. We have traditions that go back very close to the time of Christ that were preserved orally. We also have written evidence like the Didache. The number of early Christian writings are numerous.
Which early Christian writings prove the early Church looked most similar to Quakerism? If the Book of Acts is all you can cite you need to read more.
>>2526631>Strong commitment to pacificism, charity, and simple living.That’s only a fraction of what Christianity is about. Atheists can be charitable and engage in simple living. So can religious Zionists or Hindu nationalists. Doesn’t make them Christian.
>>2526631Yeah of course the original church could only be revived by white Europeans living off the spoils of colonialism, right.
>>2526633I'm talking about the actual words and teachings of Jesus as described in the accounts of the New Testament. His philosophy was about pacificism, simple living, and egalitarianism - basically the opposite of everything that the mainstream state-sanctioned forms of Christianity tend to espouse.
>>2526636Which tradition do you use to interpret the Bible? What is the historical origin of that tradition?
>>2526634No, in fact white European colonialism was a serious threat to the Quaker's existence and way of life in the New World, as their staunch commitment to pacifism meant that they had to maintain peaceful relationships with the local indigenous population in order to survive. How can you do that if literally all the other white people in the country are behaving like imperialist marauders and slaughtering the indigenous population? This is why Quakers always remained a small outsider group, their beliefs were totally incompatible with mainstream Western thought.
>>2526640The only religious text I have any familiarity with is the King James version of the Bible that I had to read in church as a child and I just have my own interpretation of its stories and messages. In my interpretation, Jesus was an anarchist who liberated himself from the tyrannical and ruthless Empire and taught others to do the same through pacifism and charity and simple living, freeing themselves from greed and hatred and devoting their lives to helping others by performing miracles and turning the other cheek in the face of violence. And, as it always happens, the Empire brutally tormented and killed him to make an example of him and then debased his memory and reappropriated his image for its own purposes, turning him into a mockery, like a Target store selling Che Guevara t-shirts.
>>2526652>Jesus was an anarchist who liberated himself from the tyrannical and ruthless Empire and taught others to do the same through pacifism and charity and simple living, freeing themselves from greed and hatred and devoting their lives to helping others by performing miracles and turning the other cheek in the face of violence. What makes your interpretation more legitimate than the thousands of other interpretations?
After all, there are thousands of different Protestant denominations (because I'm certain that's what you are, even if you won't admit it) which all believe their interpretation of Christ is the correct one.
Also, WHO compiled this Bible of yours, that you believe yourself to be the sole authority of?
>>2526642>This is why Quakers always remained a small outsider group, their beliefs were totally incompatible with mainstream Western thought.Quakrism and Proestantism in general are a product of liberal Western thought. Why did Protestantism originate in the middle of Europe and not outside of it? Why did Quakerism originate in Britain and not in Palestine or Syria?
>>2526636>>2526642Quakerism is idealist as fuck. They reject any physical sacraments and everything is done according to feels. They're no better than western Buddhists. In fact I'd say they're just Christian Buddhists. How much longer before the wellness gurus from IG become Quakers?
>>2526705Which also shows the beauty of Catholicism (and Orthodoxy), since Catholic/Orthodox synthesizes the material and the spiritual. If the material is entirely evil, why does it exist? Why would God create such a beautiful material world and then call upon us to focus only on the mind? Spiritualism fails largely due to this.
>>2526698>Why did Quakerism originate in Britain and not in Palestine or Syria?Palestine in those days was ruled by the Muslim Ottoman Empire and by that point most of the population were Muslims and Christians were just a tolerated minority population consisting of Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, etc.
You characterize Western thought as "liberal" but if anything it was Islamic society that was more liberal during the Middle Ages, developing science and mathematics and allowing non-Muslims to exist and practice their faith under their rule whereas Western Christian society was burning witches and slaughtering heretics and Jews and Muslims for hundreds of years.
>>2526722>You characterize Western thought as "liberal" but if anything it was Islamic society that was more liberal during the Middle Ages, developing science and mathematics and allowing non-Muslims to exist and practice their faith under their rule whereas Western Christian society was burning witches and slaughtering heretics and Jews and Muslims for hundreds of years.Semantics. I'm asking why Quakerism specifically grew out of a western context. You have no understanding of how base and superstructure work, do you? All Protestant denominations come from Catholicism regardless as to how much they claim to stray from Catholic teaching.
You say that Catholicism was a product of the Roman Empire yet you rely on white Europeans to restore what you believe the original Church looked like?
You also didn't provide a single historical source for the idea that the original Christians looked the most like (white 17th century European) Quakers other than vaguely referencing the Book of Acts. Which scholars of Christian history (past or present) agree with your assertion? Show the proof.
>>2526722Furthermore, liberalism started in 17th century Europe.
Quakerism also started in 17th century Europe.
You don't see the connection, why liberalism and a Christian heresy that rejects the idea of an organized Church would coincide?
>what did Jesus leave behind?
idealist utopian proto-liberal Christians 2000 years ago: "we must reject materialism, the apocalypse will happen just any day now, keep doing Epicurean-Stoic mindfulness spirituality"
Neoliberal Christians today: (so idealist and against materialism that they send text messages to their family who is sitting downstairs) "my favorite TikTok influencer told me the rapture's coming just any day now, keep doing Epicurean-Stoic CBT mindfulness psychology, we have to save our souls before Monday"
>>2526755>idealist utopian proto-liberal Christians 2000 years ago: "we must reject materialism, the apocalypse will happen just any day now, keep doing Epicurean-Stoic mindfulness spirituality"Oversimplified.
Christianity in its original form, the direct teachings from Jesus himself, was a rebellion against the authority of the Roman Empire as well as the Jewish Orthodoxy.
>>2526764So why did He establish a Church that was supposed to function as a government? Rebelling against the authority of others doesn't entail anarchism. The Bolsheviks rebelled against the authority of the Russian Empire and established a DoP in its place.
>>2526405Protestantism has so many theological holes this subject isn't worth debating.
>Why do you deny Jesus came to earth to establish a government?
He literally didn't and turned down every opportunity to become a political leader did you even read the Bible you absolute moron?
>>2526940>He literally didn't and turned down every opportunity to become a political leaderCite the verses.
>>2526940No shit? Jesus was the Son of God and knew He was going to die on the cross. That's why he made Peter pope.
if you read about the new jerusalem in revelation, there is no figure of authority since the spirit is shared between all members; to be a christian means to be a brother or sister of Christ, not to be his slave. also, Jesus says not to call any man "father", yet catholic priests demand this as their title, with the papal antichrist mocking God, calling himself "the holy father".
>>2526770the church is a spiritual body between believers. even catholic theology admits this, yet simultaneously confuse it with worldly buildings.
>>2526737the original liberals were the levellers
and the original socialists were the diggers
both arrived at the same time, during the english civil war, where it was a protestant parliament versus a catholic king. modernism has its roots in the reformation, while catholicism gives us the dark ages.
>>2526962A church is as material as it is spiritual. Why deny the material?
>>2526960That’s after Jesus’ second coming, not before.
The kingdom of heaven is in our grasp, so long as we leave out all the "heaven" and "kingdom" crap
The story of the pacifist revolutionary rising up against the Empire and being killed and becoming an inspirational martyr to the people is a recurring story throughout the history of the Empire in all its manifestations and that story is more inspirational and influential to the people than any other kind of story. The slain martyr is reborn as a living symbol and their words and their struggle and sacrifice infect the minds of all who bear witness to it and spread throughout the culture like a virus and poison and weaken the Empire in all of its enterprises.
>>2527284One of the biggest misconceptions in mainstream Christian thought is the idea of "The Kingdom of God." When Jesus talked about the Kingdom of God he wasn't talking about the afterlife or some extraterrestrial realm, he was talking about Earth, right here right now. The humble everyday decent people in the world who try to live a peaceful life with their neighbor - that is the Kingdom of God. The Empire, i.e. the Kingdom of Caesar may rule our lives but as long as we still have compassion for one another the Kingdom of God will never die.
Most “Christian” anarchists don’t even believe in God and simply use Jesus’ teachings as a secular moral philosophy.
>>2527469That’s literally every Christian that isn’t schizophrenic, no one prays and hears the voice of God except for the extremely mentally ill
>>2527472Yeah so it’s worthless to even call yourself a Christian if you don’t believe. You literally need to believe in God and the divinity of Jesus in order to be a Christian.
>>2527476No one is genuinely religious in the 21st century outside of schizophrenics, it’s all just culture and the social contract
>>2527476>You literally need to believe in God and the divinity of Jesus in order to be a Christian.No, you don't. You can define it however you see fit, that's the whole secret to religion is everyone really just makes it up themselves. Ask a thousand people what being a Christian/Jew/Muslim/Hindu/etc. means to them personally and you will get a thousand different answers.
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