Do the inter-socialist wars like the Sino-Soviet War, Sino-Vietnamese border conflict, Albania-Yugoslav border conflict, Cambodia-Vietnamese War, etc not demonstrate that war will persist under socialist governance due to the need of states to maximize their power, as is advanced by geopolitical realism?
Capitalist Imperialism only covers so much of warfare. States are much more than arbiters of class control, they also enforce social cohesion among a people. Once the ruling function was established in society, it began to be differentiated and assigned to a specific class only when victorious peoples in tribal wars took slaves and ruled the vanquished tribes. Rule and control preceded class and will outlast class. Even if Lenin fell to utopianism in State and Revolution, to have a centrally planned and vast assembled organization of production is obviously nonsensical without a highly centralized authority, and that authority will require a military to defend itself against other states outside of their borders who may desire to infringe on its territory. A workers' and peasants' desire to enslave another nation for their own security or for what the Chinese called Hegemonism is not unthinkable, just look at the Soviet-Afghan War. And even if its is not capitalist imperialism it still necessitates each socialist state maintaining armies to defend themselves even as the last outpost of the bourgeoisie lays down its arms.
The only reason why the Soviets only had to care about one of their bordering socialist states is because they had complete military control over the Eastern European people's democracies and Mongolia. When bordering socialist states had independent militaries, it was different. China, not controlling any of the socialist states it bordered, waged war on both the USSR and Vietnam, and Democratic Kampuchea waged war on Vietnam. Somalia waged war on Ethiopia, and there were fights between Albania and Yugoslavia. That's more than can be handwaved away as being because those leaders woke up in a crabby mood. It shows that even nations under Communist-run states need to defend themselves from other nations, even those who are also under Communist-run states. The state will not just wither away, it will remain in place to act as a means of national defense.
Believing that the failure of 20th century internationalism, effectively vindicates the SPDs turn to nationalism, is definitely a uniquely insane take. Bravo, I guess.
>>2527061Internationalism has never existed and never will
>>2527083Capitalism is global therefore international.
all these countries were only a dictatorship of the proletariat, they hadn't yet overcome capitalist relations. the conflicts you mentioned were all either examples of social-imperialist invasion or inter-imperialist conflict, with the 'imperialists' in this case being those whose leadership fell to revisionism due to material factors such as isolation and thus abandoned socialist goals.
>>2527089Wdym workers are not? Are you talking about their opinions and thoughts? As in they are not internationalists? What are you an idealist?
>>2527089Yet. Because their enslaved consciousness prevents them.
>>2527092Workers are materially tied to their culture, language, and the wages that keep them alive. That’s part of why immigration is pushed by the bourgeois, immigrant labor doesn’t have the same needs or interests as native labor, it’s also why workers in Europe and North America have never been meaningfully anti colonial ever.
>>2527093It’s an issue of material reality, the proletariat is not a unified class with unified interests across industry or national boundary. Coal mining workers have a direct conflicting interest with workers putting solar panels on roofs.
>>2527105It is true what you said. But it is only true that proletariat is not a class if there is no party to lead them. Sure, why not, currently proletariat is not really a class maybe
>>2527105>Coal mining workers have a direct conflicting interest with workers putting solar panels on roofsi believe hitler once praised trade union consciousness, since it gave emphasis to particularity and place, such as all national socialisms; "i am a german worker", etc.
>>2527108There are hundreds of communist parties around the world, virtually all of them are organized on a national basis, the only one that dares call itself “International” is a club of 10 or 12 Italian book worshippers.
>>2527109Marx was wrong about capitalism dissolving boundaries between workers as it dissolved feudal vestiges and leftovers
>>2527116Those are not communist parties
>>2527117Why? Who died and made you arbiter?
>>2527119Who made YOU an arbiter then? You asserted first
>>2527116Capitalism has dissolved boundaries. For the capitalists. They use nationalism to keep the workers brainwashed, in line, and easier to control.
>>2527116it was lenin who said that workers required intellectuals to lead the movement, which demonstrates this admission.
>>2527123Gramsci says the intellectuals should come from within the workers, not outside of them to act as an independent, imperious authority
>>2527125Gramsci le bad okay?
>>2527120Excuse me, there are hundreds of
SELF IDENTIFIED communist parties all around the world
>>2527125Gramsci had no idea how little energy you have left after an 8 hour workday
>>2527129>The young Gramsci had to abandon schooling and work at various casual jobs until his father's release in 1904>Although showing a talent for his studies, Gramsci had financial problems and poor health. Together with his growing political commitment, these led to him abandoning his education in early 1915, at age 24.He lived in the 20th century alongside Lenin not in fucking 1406.
>>2527130He lived only at the beginning of mass media, it’s much more sophisticated now
>>2527131So it's even easier now for us to develop class consciousness from within the working class instead of needing to rely on the whims of a separate vanguard that can (and have) gone rogue at any time.
>>2527136It’s harder because there’s millions of hours of distraction to get lost in and you’re not outcompeting the millions of social media serfs making content on master Google and Lord Amazon’s digital land
>>25271422011 4chan smarm
>>2527146>le 4chanI learned here.
>>2527148This is an offshoot of 4chan unfortunately, pretending to be a rival of reddit
>>2527105>he proletariat is not a unified class with unified interests across industry or national boundaryYes they are, they are united in their shared material interest in overthrowing a global capitalist imperialist system of exploitation, as
>>2527093 said it is their false consciousness holding them back, which you misconstrue as their "interests"
>>2527163the aristocracy of labor has a direct interest in supporting capital
>>2527165>the aristocracy of laborWhich is what? Don't be vague give me direct examples. Besides, do you think "labor" supporting capital even though it goes against their direct material interest goes against what I said about false consciousness? Do you think a feudal serf who would willingly die for a monarch is acting on their "direct interest" or a victim of false consiousness?
>>2527166 (me)
>feudal serfSorry, a better example would be a kulak or peasant tax collector
>>2527163The workers do not possess a consciousness to overthrow capital, not in the developed nations, or the developing nations, They all want to be the exploiters, the ideal for these workers is to take a cut, not to "Overthrow the global capitalist-imperialist system of exploitation", but to get their own cut, That's especially true in the "Exploited nations"
>>2527168Do you think we do not know that?? That is the result of hegemony and false consiousness that's the fucking point. BUT, they share a real material interest in internationalist solidarity despite what they might believe. Baby's first Marxist discussion or?
>>2527169False consciousness is a bullshit idea, built in the idea that the worker's simply do not know, and thus need to be enlightened, but even as workers have gotten more educated, they have yet to dispel false consciousness, even in the "Socialist" nations this was true, Why? There's two options presented, either we continue to embrace the "False consciousness" idea, or we abandon it and replace it with a new idea, not that the worker's are tricked, but that the workers are instead willingly accepting exploitation, insofar as it's "good enough".
>>2527172The only alternative to being exploited is to become bourgeois or at least petit bourgeois
>>2527175No, they don't want an alternative, they're fine with being exploited, as long as they get a cut off others who are also being exploited below them, the worker's consciousness in many countries is not communism, but instead socialized exploitation of workers on the lowest rung of the ladder, they're fine with that, since that means they still benefit, even if they are exploited themselves.
>>2527083Internationalism and cross border solidarity are real, but they are not absolutes, which many dialectical idealists will tell you they are.
>inter-socialist wars
Not one socialist country was listed
>>2527172>but even as workers have gotten more educatedIn what way have they become more "educated" and who decides what that education is you dipshit? The "more education" in liberal developed nations and trickeld down to non developed nations have been meticulously crafted to stifle class consciousness while developing other forms of science that does work. False consiosuness is very much a real thing you are just chud coping with the fact that internationalism is in everyones interest and not retarded nationalism
>>2527177Again, by this logic it is not in the feudal peasant self interest to overthrow feudalism because they would rather be land lords/kulaks
>>2527191because no country has ever achieved socialism, unfortunately
>>2527172> even in the "Socialist" nations this was trueCategorically false. Internationalism is usually the norm in these countries despite forms of cultural chauvanism
>>2527172>but that the workers are instead willingly accepting exploitation, insofar as it's "good enough"Most workers don't even see themselves as exploited by capital, so what now?
>>2527196As a matter of fact, false consciousness is deepened and strengthened by an increase in liberal "education"
>>2527208
>most of them are fine being exploited by wage labor, as long as they're given the benefits from other forms of labor exploitation.
And? A slave gladiator gets the benefits of sex slavery when his master decides to reward him, does this mean it is not in the gladiators material interest to overthrow slavery?
>>2527196I'm not arguing
against internationalism, i'm instead arguing that "class consciousness" hasn't really panned out, and instead other factors have shown against it.
>>2527205Proof? And what do you mean by "exploited"? most of them are fine being exploited by wage labor, as long as they're given the benefits from other forms of labor exploitation.
>>2527214> i'm instead arguing that "class consciousness" hasn't really panned out, and instead other factors have shown against it.Yes the other factors are different developments of false consciousness, which for some reason you are adamant to show your ass and deny exists
>>2527216The point doesn't really hold because you're not making an accurate comparison, a modern day wage labor has almost nothing in common with a gladiator slave, a peasant, etc, not because they're conditions are better, mind you, but because the motivations are almost entirely different, A slave gladiator has a material interest to revolt, because he is locked into a one-way line of work. A modern day worker doesn't have a material necessity towards establishing a Communist society, but does have a material necessity to simply improve their lot of exploitation under Capitalism, That has largely panned out.
>>2527217I don't think false consciousness exists, because i think it's a crutch used to explain the problem with why a Communist society has yet been established, in its original context it explained a 19th century worker's loyalty towards their master, But today? it is nothing but a cliche to be relied upon when the obvious problem of why a worker's revolution has yet happened, The last Worker's revolution was in the 1970s, and yet nothing has come since, Is it false consciousness? No, your response that "Modern education has been primed with false consciousness" is a poor excuse, as if this were true, there should be
a lot disdain towards Communism or even milquetoast socialism amongst the working class, but there really isn't, Why? because they are more educated than ever, they are not slaves due to false consciousness, but because they see right now that their best path forward is through incremental social democracy, that gives them a little bit more benefits, and ensures that for a time, these benefits will not be eroded.
>>2527222>A slave gladiator has a material interest to revolt, because he is locked into a one-way line of work.Not true, gladiators and other slaves were often able to "win" their freedom and could find other lines of work and even become slavers themselves, much like workers are able to "improve their lot" under Capitalism and become capitalist exploiters
>if this were true, there should be a lot disdain towards Communism or even milquetoast socialism amongst the working classI don't know where you are form, but in the imperial core in a "developed" nation if anyone even tries to bring up Marxism it is immediately shut down as a quasi-genocidal rhetoric and constantly told that socialism never works, because that is what everyone is taught in their education as well as cultural products. The strongest adherents to this philosophy are workers themselves at times who own no capital. Even the mainstream worker unions strongly deny and block out any attempts by Marxists to develop international class conscious politics.
>they see right now that their best path forward is through incremental social democracyThe last time this worked was in the New Deal, how has that panned out for everyone? Also, even if they "see" that that is their best way forward it does not disprove the phenomena of false consciousness but instead reinforces it.
>>2527166>the aristocracy of labornta, but obviously : well paid managers / CEO, big media heads, overall the very well paid very top of prestigious jobs (doctors, engineers, researchers, athletes, journalists)
>>2527252It means everyone in Europe, North America, Israel, and Japan
Marx's idea was that since the state is built upon social inequality then maybe if you designed a state in such a way that it eliminated social inequality then the state would then have no reason to exist and would immediately vanish into thin air. Just like if you went back in time and shot your grandfather, you would immediately vanish into thin air and then your grandfather would be safe. It makes perfect sense.
read less, understand more
>>2527445Spiritual nonsense
>>2527083>Internationalism has never existedon the contrary, the bourgeoisie are thoroughly internationalist. they wine and dine each other at international conferences and conspire together on how best to lower wages of the international proletariat, how best to keep the international proletariat divided and viewing each other as enemies with nationalism and other forms of identity politics.
It is an abundance of bourgeois internationalism and a failure of proletarian internationalism that is the success of the bourgeoisie. Rich men with dual citizenship can even flee the civil wars they themselves cause.
>>2527089ok so you admit that the workers are kept at each others throat by nationalist ideology peddled by an internationalist bourgeoisie that see each other as class allies against a proletariat who must be divided and conquered. The obvious answer to this is proletarian internationalism.
>>2527453Nationalism is reality, why would I as an English speaking USian go on strike if the order was given by a Chinese or Filipino union boss?
>>2527453If the bourgeois were international we wouldn’t have constant inter imperialist wars
>>2526862Class struggle persists under socialism and is only finally abolished under communism (a post-scarcity society). Therefore, it is perfectly possible for socialist countries to go to war with each other because class contradictions still exist. Hopefully, people will steer clear of such errors. But we know that life is shitty like that.
>be Stalin, the great hippie
>reject Chinese ascension into the USSR because muh Russian chauvinism, thus breaking demcent
>wtf how could the Sino-Soviet split happen
It's irrelevant whether or not the state withers away. High-level Communism is anarchist, if the state doesn't wither away, make it wither away. The problem is that no one has achieved high-level Communism, and HLC can't be achieved in one country.
>>2527711>Therefore, it is perfectly possible for socialist countries to go to war with each other because class contradictions still exist.Explain how having to deal with kolkhozniks means one dictatorship of the proletariat waging war on another dictatorship of the proletariat is actually because of the bourgoeisie.
>>2528110source on stalin rejecting china ascension into the USSR please?
>>2530106there was a thread on /leftypol/ about it. something like 2 years ago? Chinese communists sent a letter to Stalin asking for ascension into the USSR as a Chinese SSR. Stalin wrote a big fat
HET! on it. sadly I can't find the thread or the letter, but OP was asking something along the lines of why there is more than one communist party if demcent is correct
>>2530383>The Chinese delegation declares that the Communist Party of China will submit to the decisions of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. To us, this seems odd. The party of one state submitting to a party from another state. It has never happened and is impermissible.trots and anarchists hate Stalin for being le tyrannical dictator. but
this. this shit right here. no Josef, it is very much permissible. like look at this shit:
>We may give you advice, but cannot give orders as we are insufficiently informed about the situation in China, cannot even compare ourselves with you in the knowledge of all the nuances of the situation, but above all we cannot give orders because the affairs of China must be fully resolved by you.indeed you do not know the situation in China. that's what you have your Chinese regional subcommittee or whatever to deal with. not even the CPC knows everything that goes on in China
it gets even better:
>We too may not accept the suggestions of the communist parties of other countries.imagine if this were applied within the USSR. may the various oblasts of the Russian SSR ignore decisions/suggestions made by Moscow? it's one thing when a party has not yet seized power in some territory. but once that has been achieved, are they to run around like headless chickens viz the other parties? I say "no"
>>2527457"if the bourgeois had a shared interests with one another they wouldn't be trying to outcompete each other in the market economy"
you absolute dipshit mongrel chud
>>2527454>successful union strikes lead by minorities have never been done before in the USWhat level of cope is this? Nationalism is false consciousness, class solidarity across all lines is in the true interest in this material reality
>>2526862Excellent thread about the national question. Less good thread about state withering away. If neoliberalism has done something right its the free movement of people and integration of world economy as both of these policies undermine national states.
>>2533391They also undermine workers and their unions so no
A privileged bourgeosie like Marx, having been born into wealth and having never wanted for anything in his entire life, could not have understood the true nature of power: that power is an end and not a means, that no power structure ever withers away willingly, that power is never given, only taken.
>>2527457>what if ultraimperialism was realwelcome back Kautsky
>>2527083Yeah not with nationalists still pretending to be communists until they get bored of it like ᴉuᴉlossnW
>>2527105>Workers are materially tied to their culture, language, and the wages that keep them alive. Nuh uh. Only the wages. That is what makes them workers. Stop roleplaying as a marxist.
>>2527457>If the bourgeois were international we wouldn’t have constant inter imperialist warsThe bourgeois isn't international. Capital is. And that's what Communism ends.
>>2533531Yeah, okay dude. Go outside and interact with real everyday people sometime.
>>2527165That's false consciousness, when actually in socialism they will be new leaders without being control by capitalism.
And if those "aristocrats" just like to enjoy "western degeneracy" then they don't deserve to be called "aristocrats".
Basically the real labour aristocrats faggots (CEO, managers,…) are just too coward and don't believe in the future economic system without the domination of capitalist accumulation (THE LINE MUST GO UP meme). They prefer to live comfortably under the golden chains, rather than lead the charge into a new world.
>>2533536Wow a "be real" argument. A classic from people who didn't understand Critique of the Gotha Program. Popular with the "Engels actually didn't really mean the family" retards.
State will wither away
Family will dissapear
Money won't exist
Commodities won't exist
People will be free of wage labor
Take your sensitive ass back to your welfare capitalist state dumbass.
>>2526862These were inter-social democratic wars, not inter-socialist wars. I think that will help with your totally-wrong conception of the state.
>>2533570Why would the family disappear?
You mean the family will be free from capital
>>2533674Communism wants to negate the family as in to reject the capitalist aspect which centres it around property and elevating it into a new form in a post capitalist dynamic.
Anyone who un-ironically thinks family as in family be or should be abolished is a lunatic and inherently anti revolutionary
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