>need to develop productive forces for communism to happen
>this fucks up the earth and nature
how do we reconcile this as gommunists? whenever I see people calling for protecting the amazon there is an argument that the people cutting down the trees are just trying to make a living.
180 posts and 24 image replies omitted.>>2538504Thanks anon! I'll give it a read later. Do you happen to have a copy of Kohei Saito's "Capitalism in the Anthropocene"? That one's been on my backlog too.
>>2538558>imperialists took control of that country and began pursuing a policy of degrowth, depopulation and genocide Buzzing with buzzwords
>>2539194Ah yes. "Free" choice under capitalism. As if Marxists ever acknowledged such a thing.
<If the police were to march into a working class community to take away the pregnant women to a hospital and force them to undergo an abortion, everyone would be up in arms over this outrage. Yet when the ruling class sets things up economically to have the same effect, many so-called leftists even encourage this outrage. Marxists have always recognized that the economics of capitalism is the major force oppressing the working class; the police and military power is only secondary. The economics of capitalism right now is forcing millions of working class families to undergo abortions to exterminate their future offspring. Far from a step toward the liberation of women, this is another horrible oppressive chain around our necks. How does this work? Let’s spell it out so there is no doubt.https://www.marxists.org/history/erol/ca.firstwave/cpl-abortion/section1.htm >>2539749"A woman’s control of her own body is the essence of the abortion movement, it is often claimed. The question of control of one’s body is not a sex question, but a class question. Capitalist men and women control their own bodies; working men and women sell their bodies to the capitalists for a specified period of time. The ability to obtain an abortion has nothing to do with this. This is elementary Marxism.
This “control” that, in some areas, has now been bestowed on women is really a tragedy for many working class families, and a great tragedy for the working class as a whole to be deprived of so many successors to the revolutionary cause."
Lol what freaks. Yes poverty helps drive abortions but that doesn't mean we should take away people's rights
>>2539755>Yes poverty helps drive abortions but that doesn't mean we should take away people's rightsid be really surprised if thats what they are saying. it sounds like they want people to have jobs and stable lives so that a choice can actually be a free choice
>The question is not whether abortion should be made legal or nothmm
>>2539769It is very clearly an anti-abortion stance, they just didnt want to say it explicitly.
>>2539749Would forcing women to give birth at gunpoint make them more free?
>>2539762Somebody should have aborted you absolutely retarded ass.
>>2539797This board is literaly just /pol/ now, it's fucking shite and nationalism through and through
>>2539792Nobody is forcing women to fornicate
>>2539842Good, enthusiastic consent is important.
>>2539850>muh consentUh oh we’ve got another retard
>>2540155all fundies are pervert rapists and get the sword
Communism is highly agreeable with forms of production which are clean and highly energy efficient, yet also provide a high standard of living to large populations. Imagine a world of safe, efficient nuclear reactors powering electric high speed rail lines and using excess energy to produce clean hydrogen for green steelmaking and fuel cells for large vehicles. We will replace polluting cargo ships with nuclear cargo ships and we will use nuclear rockets or something to replace long distance jet aircraft.
>>2539749>70's kkklanadian puritanical idealism1920 Soviet decree reaction:
>In recent decades, both in the West and here in Russia, the number of women resorting to abortion has been increasing.>Laws in all countries combat this evil by punishing both the woman who chooses to have an abortion and the doctor who performs it.>Failing to achieve positive results, this method of combating abortion has driven the procedure underground, making women victims of self-serving and often ignorant abortionists who have turned this secret operation into a commercial enterprise.>As a result, up to 50% of women become ill from the infection, and up to 4% of them die.
>The Workers' and Peasants' Government recognizes the harm this phenomenon poses to the collective. By strengthening the socialist system and promoting anti-abortion agitation among the working female population, it combats this evil and, by widely implementing the principles of the Protection of Motherhood and Childhood, foresees the gradual disappearance of this practice.
>But while moral remnants of the past and the difficult economic conditions of the present still force some women to undergo this operation, the People's Commissariat of Health and the People's Commissariat of Justice, protecting women's health and the interests of the race from ignorant and self-serving predators and considering the method of repression in this area to be utterly ineffective, decree:
>I. Artificial termination of pregnancy is permitted free of charge in the conditions of Soviet hospitals, where its maximum safety is ensured.>II. This operation is absolutely prohibited for anyone other than a physician.>III. Any midwife or nurse found guilty of performing this operation shall be deprived of the right to practice and brought before the People's Court.https://istmat.org/node/42778 >>2541080>By strengthening the socialist system and promoting anti-abortion agitation among the working female population, it combats this evil and, by widely implementing the principles of the Protection of Motherhood and Childhood, foresees the gradual disappearance of this practice.lmao
>>2540146When I see such Larouchism I always struggle to call it between mental illness or psyop
>>2541196La Rouche stole Prometheanism from Communists in the 70s/80s when the cia turned western Communists into Judith Butler cuckfag-retards because it doesn't affect class struggle
Prometheanism was originally pushed by Communists though and your aversion to Prometheanism is just your anti-Communism showing through
Face the wall individualist 🤷
>>2533288this is a truke and I'm generally pro-China
>>2541174
>Just to stop proles drinking bleach in starvation condtions from all the war
<implying proles drinking bleach in starvation conditions is preferable to state issued hospitals and hygiene education
"prolife"oids never change
>Commissar of health who called Abortion evil says once everyone has housing, food, medical care, day cares abortion should be stopped
because party members can do nothing wrong ever and their word is literal gospel
>Soviets never cared about individual rights lol
ok and?
<inb4 muh stalin
>only banned it AFTER the material conditions changed and contraception became available, along with socialized childcare for all working families
>unlike c*eausescu never banned contraception or did "monthly inspections" of all reproductive age women
>pressured by an upcoming world war with actual fascism
>>2541174
also
>Soviets never cared about individual rights lol
as if that's supposed to be a "gotcha"
<b-but i thought in socialism i could keep being a broodmare and a houseslave for some drooling ogre, it's my choice actually!
<b-but i thought in socialism i could keep my child wife in the basement, she agreed to this herself! stop kinkshaming ffs
>>2541221what is prometheanism by your definition
>>2539749Observing an oppressive policy by capitalists does not simply mean to reverse that policy, and this becomes the new communist position. This is not dialectical thinking. Instead the communist position is to alleviate those factors of capitalism that render abortion oppressive no longer relevant. By improving accessibility of child care, healthcare, housing, etc. Then abortion becomes a free choice.
>>2541011In my communist utopia, rivers are made of rainbows and when it rains it is chocolate
the schizo ruined this thread
>>2542529Sounds like the communist utopia has a DDT factory up river
>>2539165Those books are for queers
Read these.
David John Douglass - Coal Climate Change and Destruction of the British coal Industry
Written by a union leader of National Union of Mineworkers… The most influential union of the British working class. Not a pair of glasses wearing academics that shove stuff up their arse all day and then write papers on it (literally those 2 books)
And
Ian Plimers - Green Murder
To understand the eugenicists behind so-called "climate change" and the lengths they will go to debase the Working Classes energy production supplies and defraud the Working class of billions of £s
https://annas-archive.org/md5/bfdcc54ef840bc6afa6fea47a167fc4a(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) >>2542585LOL HE WAS BANNED
>>2539165Saito's a pseud who has faced criticism from Bellamy Foster in recent years.
Replace him with Jason
W Moore.
>>2543083yeah sure but anon requested it. its good to teach people how to pirate books
All idealistic Redditors in here.
>>2553004>reddit out of nowherewoah
>>2531538<how do we reconcile this as gommunists? whenever I see people calling for protecting the amazon there is an argument that the people cutting down the trees are just trying to make a living.the productive forces have already been developed enough at least by the 1990s to support socialism or possibly even earlier
>>2534538If you believe in a Creator, then humans are the steward of nature and in a position to make the determination of when it needs direction.
If you do not believe in a Creator, then humans are a part and product of nature and therefore have as much right and power to shape the environment as any other species or force of nature.
Ants build anthills, bees build beehives, birds build nests, humans build apartment complexes. They're all just redistribution and alteration of matter to alter the environment. Different modes of expression of the same behavior.
I'm a panentheist, so I believe that the Creator is in the Creation. Nature *is* God, so to say. God isn't external, it's internal as a multiplicity. That is, it is internal to every consciousness, and consciousness forms in aggregates. The ant or bee compared to the colony, the bird to the flock. Or on a smaller scale, the brain cell to the brain. And of course we can draw these comparisons at all sorts of scales and in all sorts of connection to other systems, but the point is: After atheism ("There is no external God") comes panentheism ("The only God is the one we see within ourselves"), and with that comes agency. We have power over our environment, all creatures do, but with power comes responsibility. Stewardship. In any perspective, it is impossible to escape the realization that we as humans have a power and that we use it *whether we mean to or not* and therefore we have to be conscious of what we are creating in any given moment.
The debate is over how we use our power to shape the environment, not over whether we have it. The debate is over what we must destroy, not if we will, because creation requires destruction (this is what alteration *is*). And that debate is multi-pronged, because there is the individual case and the multiple aggregate cases (as family head, what do I instruct my family to do, as working class, how do I treat my coworkers?).
>>2556671Just because you can destroy nature doesn't mean you should.
>>2556688Nice dubs, but you didn't read
<we use it *whether we mean to or not*<The debate is over what we must destroy, not if we will, because creation requires destruction (this is what alteration *is*)Even if you decide to be as low impact as possible and your solution is "we should build nests in the trees like birds to be as in tune with nature as possible", you're missing the point that you still have to pick which wood to build the friggin' treehouses/nests out of. Destruction is inevitable. Pick your poison and the degree of it you find acceptable, because the poison is in the dose.
>>2556696You're being pedantic, obviously you need to consume things to live to some extent but some people ITT are acting like retards saying we should destroy nature.
>>2556671>invoking a Creator at all, in any capacity, ever>>>>>right>ants building anthills is just a different mode of expression of the same behavior and has no meaningful difference from strip mining an entire mountain>I'm a pantheist>The debate is over what we must destroy, not if we will,You are an enemy not only of the people but of life itself
>>2556697>>2556702Destruction of nature is inevitable. Fuck anthills, volcanos and hurricanes destroy too. And stuff grows in the space left behind. The question of destruction is of how we live in harmony through our destruction.
>the enemy of life itselfAll I can say is "buh?".
Photosynthesis destroys photons to create glucose. This is like, basic physics. Transmutation is destruction, destruction is transmutation. It *is* life itself.
Again, the debate is over how we exploit resources, not if we do. It's inevitable. It is nature.
Most of us don't own strip mining corporations or even work them. You're strawmanning.
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