Nobody cares about "revisionism". Nobody cares if you think socialism ended in the USSR in 1953 or whatever. Nobody cares about your position on debates and splits that took place decades before they were born. What people *do* care about is that socialism and can solve the problems that face them, like poverty and colonialism. I've seen people here ridicule the notion that socialism is helping people but there is really no other way to build power. People did not follow Lenin because he had the right ideas but because the Bolsheviks were the only conceivable solution that didn't end in what would later be known as fascism. Why does the CPC have near-universal approval in China? Because their system works and it provides for the people. Almost nobody there wants to return to the days of the Cultural Revolution. And where is anti-revisionist cause celebre Albania today? Now just another NATO puppet state. The entire concept of "anti-revisionism" is anti-materialist because it puts ideas before people. It doesn't matter if you have the right ideas because Marxism was never about having the right ideas. What matters is having the right practice. Here's another truke: If your system can be undone by a single bad actor with mere decrees, then maybe it was useless and was never going to make it in the first place.
you were right until you said some dumb shit about communism being about literally anything but the strictly proletarian struggle lol
Ideologues like to claim credit for all social progress in the world, but the real work is done by regular people who aren't academics or intellectuals and often don't have any particular ideology at all, they're just simple working class people who finally get pissed off enough that they decide to take matters into their own hands. All these supposedly "socialist" countries in the world didn't get that way because some politicians decided to implement socialism as a national policy; they got that way because a bunch of barely-literate enraged factory workers and railroad workers and coal miners fought in the streets with cops and strikebreakers and got beaten with clubs and gassed and shot and thrown in jail and they continued fighting and striking until the ruling class finally backed down and caved to their demands.
This exact argument is why no one gives a shit about socialism in most countries on the planet, either because capitalism is already doing fine, or because the socialists are actively attempting to make things worse (mass immigration, dumb anti-growth policies)(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
>>2532127Dumb idiot that hates reading
>>2532333I think it's probably a safe assumption that anyone who thinks immigration is "the most important issues of our times" is probably a racist and an idiot.
>>2532098Sounds like being accused of revisionism gets you butt blasted.
China is doing good building the material basis for socialism but due to pushing nationalism over class struggle they’ve only delayed the inevitable rupture that must occur. And while ever private means of production persist in China they’ll act as a corrupting influence on the party.
>>2532299Damn you're a retard
>>2532127ᴉuᴉlossnW speech bubble?
>>2532098How do you do the right things without first having the right ideas? You have a blue print and then you make a house.
>And where is anti-revisionist cause celebre Albania today?How was Albania anti-revisionist? I'm unfamiliar with this argument.
>>2532319>dude theory doesn't matterOP didnt say this btw
>>2532779>A connection that is (…) long-term but temporaryThis is what the CPC claims.
>>2532127>It doesn't matter if you have the right ideas because Marxism was never about having the right ideas. What matters is having the right practiceDo you suppose there might be some kind of connection between those two things?
>nobody cares about revisionism
95% of people on this site do.
Tl;dr: Just be a pragmatic, bro
Which ain't wrong at all.
>>2540089
So your offer is i get less treats and I have to go to meetings all the time
>>2540042>This is what the CPC claims.If that's true, then they are much more ideologically literate than pro commodity "marxists"/"Communists".
>>2532098Seems like you at least care a lot, otherwise why bother with this post?
Anti-revisionism matters because if you go too far, you eventually end up a Trot or porky in red clothes.
The debate is over where the hard red line starts and ends.
The problem comes out to, anti-revisionism has to be accompanied by anti-dogmatism. If you're just trying to jerk off a dead German Jew, you're an infantile disorder that's probably a wrecker.
>>2540263most people who join the party due so for personal advancement due to the corrupting bureaucracy, not because they give a shit about "socialism", which china has already betrayed no matter how much they pretend otherwise
>>2532660>How was Albania anti-revisionist? I'm unfamiliar with this argument.Albania under Enver Hoxha prided itself on this strict interpretation of Marxism-Leninism that held that it was the only socialist country in the world and that all the other socialist countries became capitalist. It denounced Yugoslavia, the Soviet Union and later its only ally China and by the 1980s was stagnant and isolated. Now OpenAI runs the Albanian government. Pic related.
>>2540068>Criticizing us is equal to supporting an unrepentant imperialist Neo-Nazi war criminal that is campaigning on going to war with China.KYS
>>2540246>Imperialist revisionist monopolist U$$R solved no problems, made everyone poor, and colonized vast portion of earth.Literal NAFO rhetoric. If the USSR was colonialist under Khrushchev or Brezhnev then it was colonialist under Lenin and Stalin.
>Because albania was revisionist that fell with all the other revisionistEnver Hoxha is a revisionist now. That's new. And if he wasn't, then who put the revisionists in power in the first place? And why did his system fail to outlive him?
>>2540237>Anti-revisionism matters because if you go too far, you eventually end up a Trot or porky in red clothes.And what of the "anti-revisionists" whose practice seems to consist of florid denunciations of "state-capitalists" and "social-imperialists" that seem to exist exclusively on the Internet? How are they any better than Trots?
>>2540215>Seems like you at least care a lot, otherwise why bother with this post?Because I'm tired of historical and theoretical debates about events that happened before anybody here was even born while the world burns and fascists are on the march.
>>2540039What I'm saying in essence that that theory should adjust itself to real life, not the other way around.
>>2540076>>2540238This.
OP is 100% correct on every point
>>2532098i more or less agree until
>Almost nobody there wants to return to the days of the Cultural Revolutionthis is obvious, however the way you are framing this is misleading. almost no one wants to worsen their current quality of life. the people that were alive during the context of the cultural revolution didn't have too many other options however, it was either kill the landlords or be their literal slave. research the history for yourself if you don't understand what i'm saying. Stalin and Lenin's governments didn't do that wild harsh shit just for shits and giggles, they did it because it was a war and desperate measures were more readily deemed necessary.
idk or care about albania. idk what that has to do with an accurate understanding of history. anti-revisionism isn't about going out of your way to defend ideas dogmatically, it is about not just taking the word of every socialist entity's geopolitical enemies at face value, of evaluating historical writing and news reporting in its proper context. anti-revisionism is thus not anti-materialist, it is in fact the only proper materialist method of analysis, one that takes account of the historical and political and class context of analysis itself.
your last point about single leaders undoing systems with mere decrees is also plainly anti-materialist, a more obvious case of Great Man Theory, likely due to a misunderstanding of the multiple geopolitical factors at play in any one specific scenario.
it seems to me that you are just vaguely frustrated by the inane kinds of dialogue on /leftypol/, populated as it is by miseducated youths and social outcasts.
>>2540387>it was either kill the landlords or be their literal slaveMost people here obviously agree with deleting landlords, the cultural revolution was a lot more (and a lot dumber) than that
>>2532098> It doesn't matter if you have the right ideas because Marxism was never about having the right ideas.Well its at least interesting to have these more fanatical comrades who don't view Marxism scientifically but as a holy creed you must uphold.
>It doesn't matter if you have the right ideas because Marxism was never about having the right ideas.
The mantra of every great political movement:
It doesn't matter if we're wrong; we're together.
>>2540421No its about developing Marxist ideas to suit historical experience instead of following his holy dogma.
>>2540428>kys anti-communistYou and yours are far more effective anti-Communists that I could ever hope to be.
>>2540421Believing that Marxism is about ideas is Hegelian nonsense. Marxism is about method, the implementation, validation, and refinement of theory through praxis.
Then again, the average radlib can't digest Marxist epistemology and ontology, because liberalism (and fascism) is about nonsense discourse.
You can debate shit endlessly, while we revolt, build, and develop.
You know you're making the exact same argument capitalists where making from 1850 all the way to 1990s? Throughout this period, every single decade brought about an increase in standard of living in the capitalist countries. And that was the biggest reason why worker opposition never crystallized into something big.
Only when stagnation became undeniable in the 2010s that people stopped using this argument. China is not the only industrialising country on the planet. Virtually all third world countries saw massive improvements in standard of living over the past half century. And therefore the working class in none of these countries are very revolutonary. But we as communists don't say "we don't need revolution in X 3rd world country see their GDP per capita doubled in the past 20 years."
>>2540387>…anti-revisionism isn't about going out of your way to defend ideas dogmatically, it is about not just taking the word of every socialist entity's geopolitical enemies at face value, of evaluating historical writing and news reporting in its proper context. anti-revisionism is thus not anti-materialistBut that's not what I've seen from them. All I see from them is that them defending every word and every decision of dead men that happened decades before they were even born, no matter how correct they were then or now or how applicable to modern society they are today.
>your last point about single leaders undoing systems with mere decrees is also plainly anti-materialist, a more obvious case of Great Man Theory, likely due to a misunderstanding of the multiple geopolitical factors at play in any one specific scenario.Take it up with the "anti-revisionists", not with me. They're the ones saying that Nikita Khrushchev restored capitalism be taking down Stalin portraits.
>it seems to me that you are just vaguely frustrated by the inane kinds of dialogue on /leftypol/, populated as it is by miseducated youths and social outcasts.The problems of Leftypol are the problems of the Left. This type of posturing has been what has consumed the Left long before almost anybody here was even born.
>>2540389>Most people here obviously agree with deleting landlords, the cultural revolution was a lot more (and a lot dumber) than thatBasically this, although I think that something like the Cultural Revolution was basically inevitable due to the botched modernization of China after the Xinhai Revolution.
>>2532098This is just the standard ML position unless you're a retarded wrecker, more so in the thirld world where without a considerably pragmatic approach socialism cannot endure
>>2532322>>2532341Why isn't mass-immigration the most important issues of our times? stop silencing him,you're not on twitter
>>2532341you are a retard
>>2532098But I already knew MLs are just nihilistic fascists?
You have just a backwards, unscientific ideology. Nothing you do will amount to anything. You are not Marxists.
>>2532098>nObOdy cArEsit is sufficient to say "i don't care about X" but even that is not worth saying at all because it adds nothing. narcissists always have to pretend their personal dumbass opinion is universal which is why why they'll bludgeon you with "nObOdy cArEs" instead of just quietly moving on from subjects which do not interest them
>>2559014Kamala stans make the exact faggot argument OP did
Your mum should kill herself
What do you determine is useful information and what's not? That's the more important question. Until we talk about that it will be endless shitflinging between the two extremes.
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