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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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File: 1761390896291.png (1.39 MB, 1248x832, notanantiimperialist.png)

 

Can someone give me non-bullshit explanation of how exactly Western PROLETARIAT benefits from imperialism?

The West exported their investments and know-how and helped in the industrialization of the third world. Not just China, but also SEA, Asian tigers, India, Brazil, Poland, Malaysia etc. This resulted in the exact opposite of what happened in colonialism. The Western industries were hollowed out this time, and outsourced to the third world. Now sure, the Western bourgie benefited from this, but the money didnt trickle down much. That's why in the 1970s you could support a family and live a decent life doing a simple blue collar job and now you cant. So where exactly did the Western PROLETARIAT benefit from this imperialism?
198 posts and 25 image replies omitted.

>>2550985
How do you imagine the global working class lives?

>>2551466
Why are you avoiding the question?

>>2551475
The majority of the working class around the world simply doesn't live in shacks with no plumbing now. It's uncommon outside of regions fraught by insurgency and war like Subsaharan Africa, because capitalism has in fact developed most of Asia and Latin America, and even Africa is going to become subject to such development as less profits can be extracted from the rest of the planet.

>>2551503
The inequities we face now are not the same everywhere, but they are part of the same tendencies of capitalism, government intervention absent

>>2551503
But that is the comparison you’re making, that you may have housing with all the modern amenities and safety standards including a limitation on how many people can occupy the property for fire safety, but you’re renting while third worlders have *higher* home ownership and that equalises in your mind despite said housing can range from a shack housing a family of 12 in Bangladesh to a Khrushchovka housing a couple in Eastern Europe?

>>2551523
My point isn't that anything is equal here. My point is that the position of proles in capitalist economies across the globe is very similar and it's not like USanos get a massive advantage over other proles from the purchasing power of the dollar that lets them mass purchase cheaper export commodities.

>>2551551
>Not equal just very similar
Lmao dude okay, that’s not even going into the point I just made that housing outside the west has a lot more variance in quality and safety than you’re suggesting.

I mean even in individual nations in Latin America and Asia, the variance in housing can be huge. Like there’s a big difference in an imperialised nation between the essentially western-tier middle class of people working for either western businesses siphoning off the resources or a domestic comprador business assisting to that end, and the lower class of people having to spend all their lives in the mines and the sweatshops.

The problem is, that “middle class” and the compradors who may enjoy a reasonably nice flat in the capital city or even a villa in the Mediterranean are all essentially employees of western corporations and thus their compensation reflects their salaries, not a level of development.

Nations that do manage to shrug off imperialism, at least to the degree that it does not preclude domestic investment and genuine development by a bourgeoisie, are all the no-no countries that are charged with rocking the geopolitical boat vis-a-vis multipolarism and the imperial states must prepare for armed conflict with.

didn't read the thread but it's more complicated than that.

I recommend reading Imperialism by Hobson for a direct explanation of how it damages the wellbeing of the domestic working class, and reading the Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the State, specifically the parts about the decay and destruction of ancient Athens and ancient Rome for a preview of what's going to happen soon in USA.

The cliffs notes is imperialism simultaneously declasses the industrial proletariat, without which Marx quite correctly noted in Class Struggles in France 1848 - 1850 there CAN BE NO socialist revolution, and in the backwash of what many call "imperial superprofits", starts to build up a big fund that can be used to buy off JUST ENOUGH of the white wome I mean "labor aristocracy" and the lumpen proles to completely kneecap the development of revolutionary minded consciousness in the superfluous, non slave/prison/immigrant labor population, who are eventually going to be dumped on the social scrap heap more than once alluded to by Engels in his book I mentioned above.

Imperialism is also downstream of the monopoly formation stage of capitalism, which means the domestic economy has already become uncompetitive and price insensitive. This removes the pressure for the domestic capitalists to hammer down the local rent seeking parasites, and also removes the leverage the proletariat has over capital when the OG capitalists have not yet escaped the need to compete with each other by consolidating into monopolies, transcending into the financial oligarchy, and winning all the wars necessary to blow the world wide open for investing all their extra capital. We are already way past that stage.

(^ note: this post-monopoly cancerous growth of rentierism causes wages to fall under the cost of reproduction of the working class, which tanks birthrates. it's a slow slaughter)

So it's beneficial to the domestic "proletariat" if you mean the domestic "working class landlords" and people who think being a drug addled office worker who eats junkfood all day and gets healthcare from Amazon.com is a great life. It also produces a huge amount of apparatchik jobs for the petit bourge and up's worthless offspring in NGOs, alphabets, the government, media corps, etc. Hobson directly talks about this. But back then it was being shipped off to India to be a worthless loser running part of the colonial administration.

I have read Sakai and HW Edwards and I concluded they are full of shit since their main thesis is being jealous of white boomers. White boomers are on their way to hell where they belong, and no one should be jealous of them.

>>2537417
in usapol someone said:

<notice how it's the middle countries, the 2nd world, China and Russia mainly, who are the most effective at fighting US hegemony, even if it is not always for ideologically pure reasons, or using ideologically pure strategies, even if it's tainted by nationalism or whatever. This is noteworth because the past modes of production were never actually overthrown by the poorest and weakest class, but by the middle class. Slavery wasn't overthrown by slaves. There were suppressed servile revolts, but the slow transition to feudalism was managed by local lords after the collapse of the slaveholding empires of late antiquity. The transition out of feudalism wasn't carried out by the peasants, but by the burghers, i.e. the proto-bourgeoisie. The artisans, the merchants, the guildmasters, etc. who became more economically relevant than the landed aristocracy. I similarly think capitalism will not be overthrown by the 1st world imperial core proletariat, or the peripheral 3rd world proletariat, but by the 2nd world proletariat, i.e. the Chinese and Russian proletariat. People don't like this because of complaints about "ziggers" or whatever, but dialectically this makes sense, and historically, this reflects what happened to previous modes of production, which were overthrown by a middle strata. Marx is correct that it's the proletariat who are the revolutionary class, but it's specifically the middle proletariat. Not the 1st world unionized labor aristocracy, or the 3rd world child proles working in cobalt mines, but the the 2nd world Chinese and Russian proletariat. Call me a "zigger" for this but I think this is just the emerging situation. I don't say it out of chauvinism for those countries in particular, I just think they are uniquely positioned to play this historical role, just like the UK, France, Germany, and America were uniquely positioned to bring about global bourgeois rule.

>>2536064
>what does 2+2 equal and don't say 4 gimme a real answer!
if you missed the 20 year imperial war to control oil prices you're beyond help.

>>2555972
>notice how it's the middle countries, the 2nd world, China and Russia mainly, who are the most effective at fighting US hegemony
First line already implying the end goal is ending US hegemony when capital will just move elsewhere. Not reading nationalist drivel.

>>2555989
Yeah those oil prices really benefited the workers under neoliberal reforms!

>>2555972
Mfw pure ideology

>>2556006
>ummm it's saying something i made up in my head and i'm scared to read it because of my prejudiced objection that is addressed later on in the very text i refuse to read
i hate you lol

>>2556006
>implying the goal ISN'T to end US hegemony
>because "capital will just move elsewhere"

America's currency hegemony and world reserve currency status depends on the debt being unpaid, and the debt being unpaid depends on the trade deficit, and the trade deficit depends on importing more than we export, and that depends on deindustrialization. Trump wants to reindustrialize, but he also wants to maintain currency hegemony. He can't have both. He has to pick between one or the other. He cannot be a neo-mercantilist advocate of reindustrialization, and an advocate of America's currency hegemony at the same time. The British and Dutch were also vanquished by this same crisis of hegemony. This is why China, at least the smarter officials in China, don't want to inherit America's unipolar imperial hegemony. It is a poison pill which destroys you in the long run. Multipolarity may prove to be unstable for different reasons, but unipolar hegemony is already proven to be unstable.

Hegemony has proven to be a major crisis of capitalism because it causes a inbalance not just of trade, but of production and consumption, and an inbalance of the very process of proletarianization. If a country becomes too hegemonic, it becomes its own gravedigger. Hegemony has proven to be undesirable for the reasons outlined above, while multipolarity may prove to create regional power struggles. Hegemony doesn't work, and lack of hegemony is just a power vacuum. The collapse of hegemony is historically progressive from the standpoint of advancing beyond the current concrete situation but not "The end goal" or equivalent to ending capitalism itself, nor was that stated or implied, you were just looking for an excuse not to read and to discourage others to read on a site where all we do is talk.

Genuinely it’s kind of sad about how many people, even at the stage of reaching leftypol, just can’t let go of their attachments to their states.

Like, surely no one believes they’re being profound instead of self-serving when they essentially say
>You’re unfairly picking on the US/EU just because they’re the global hegemon, primary imperialists, pervasive interventionists, etc when ahem, have you considered that Mozambique would do the exact same if THEY had global hegemony?

>>2556169
>Genuinely it’s kind of sad about how many people, even at the stage of reaching leftypol, just can’t let go of their attachments to their states.
And the attachment to other states? As I see leftypol is just in-group nationalists and out-group nationalists arguing.

>>2556164
>This is why China, at least the smarter officials in China, don't want to inherit America's unipolar imperial hegemony.
"Chinese officials" can want whatever they want. The rule of capital will dictate that when the time comes, neolib reforms will come to China, unless a revolution takes place.

>>2556234
> neolib reforms will come to China, unless a revolution takes place.

but anon, a revolution already took place.

>>2556229
No it's more western nationalists-in-denial getting unbelievably buttblasted that discussions of other non-socialist, non-western nations aren't always through a needlessly hostile lens, as they're just in the spotlight for situations usually created by western imperialists intentionally and therefore placed in the position of fighting western capitalists unintentionally.

Like the source of the asspain is that it's felt unfair that the US is exclusively viewed with hostility for starting shit with third world countries, but that's not being balanced by pointing out that said third world nation isn't exactly a haven for what would be considered leftist in the US.

>>2556006
US hegemony has historically been the number 1 enemy of socialism, even if capital just moves around elsewhere, will this new hegemon (China) have already a bunch of military bases around the world ready to fuck you up? No, that shit takes time, and during that time revolution has a better chance than under US hegemony. You are a retard.

>>2556148
Care to elaborate?

>>2556289
>but anon, a revolution already took place.
Yeah. A national liberation. Good job in industrialising and growing the cities. Now what?

>>2556430
This would be a burn if western leftists weren't also shitting their knickers over contemporary national liberation movements

>>2556234
>e rule of capital will dictate that when the time comes, neolib reforms will come to China

Already happening with the increase in retirement age.

>>2556435
National liberations over already built nations don't do shit.

>>2556488
Syria was sanctioned, bombed, riddled with US-backed terrorists and even having its oil stolen via an occupation and none of that apparently warranted support for national liberation with western leftists based on that same reasoning.

As though because whatever ba’athist Syria had achieved in terms of development, it just became an excuse for tossers to be like
>and where did it get them hmmm? Why can’t they resist the US/NATO/Israel? Perhaps they were just ba’ad at development lolololol let the bombs drop!

>>2556430
>Yeah. A national liberation. Good job in industrialising and growing the cities. Now what?
A national liberation, industrialization, and growth of cities under the supervision of an actual communist party (you will dispute this point no doubt) is different from a bourgeois national liberation. China intends to build socialism.

<Will it be possible for private property to be abolished at one stroke? No, no more than existing forces of production can at one stroke be multiplied to the extent necessary for the creation of a communal society. In all probability, the proletarian revolution will transform existing society gradually and will be able to abolish private property only when the means of production are available in sufficient quantity.


- Friedrich Engels, Principles of Communism, 1847

<Our theory is a theory of evolution, not a dogma to be learned by heart and to be repeated mechanically. The less it is drilled into the Americans from outside and the more they test it with their own experience […] the deeper will it pass into their flesh and blood. When we returned to Germany, in spring 1848, we joined the Democratic Party as the only possible means of getting the ear of the working class; we were the most advanced wing of that party, but still a wing of it. When Marx founded the International, he drew up the General Rules in such a way that all working-class socialists of that period could join it – Proudhonists, Pierre Lerouxists and even the more advanced section of the English Trades Unions; and it was only through this latitude that the International became what it was, the means of gradually dissolving and absorbing all these minor sects, […] Had we from 1864, to 1873 insisted on working together only with those who openly adopted our platform where should we be to-day? I think that all our practice has shown that it is possible to work along with the general movement of the working class at every one of its stages without giving up or hiding our own distinct position and even organisation […]


- Friedrich Engels, Letter to Florence Kelley Wischnewetsky, January 27, 1887

<To my mind, the so-called “socialist society” is not anything immutable. Like all other social formations, it should be conceived in a state of constant flux and change. Its crucial difference from the present order consists naturally in production organized on the basis of common ownership by the nation of all means of production. To begin this reorganization tomorrow, but performing it gradually, seems to me quite feasible. That our workers are capable of it is borne out by their many producer and consumer cooperatives which, whenever they're not deliberately ruined by the police, are equally well and far more honestly run than the bourgeois stock companies.


- Engels, Letter to Otto Von Boenigk In Breslau, August 21, 1890

<Philosophers have hitherto only interpreted the world in various ways; the point is to change it.

Karl Marx, Theses on Feuerbach, 1845

<[…] it is only possible to achieve real liberation in the real world by employing real means, that slavery cannot be abolished without the steam-engine and the mule and spinning-jenny, serfdom cannot be abolished without improved agriculture, and that, in general, people cannot be liberated as long as they are unable to obtain food and drink, housing and clothing in adequate quality and quantity. “Liberation” is an historical and not a mental act, and it is brought about by historical conditions, the development of industry, commerce, agriculture, the conditions of intercourse.


- Karl Marx, The German Ideology, 1845-1846

<Between capitalist and communist society there lies the period of the revolutionary transformation of the one into the other. Corresponding to this is also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat.


- Karl Marx, Critique of the Gotha Programme, 1875

<No social order is ever destroyed before all the productive forces for which it is sufficient have been developed, and new superior relations of production never replace older ones before the material conditions for their existence have matured within the framework of the old society.


- Karl Marx, from the preface to A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy (1859)

<A house may be large or small; as long as the neighboring houses are likewise small, it satisfies all social requirement for a residence. But let there arise next to the little house a palace, and the little house shrinks to a hut. The little house now makes it clear that its inmate has no social position at all to maintain, or but a very insignificant one; and however high it may shoot up in the course of civilization, if the neighboring palace rises in equal or even in greater measure, the occupant of the relatively little house will always find himself more uncomfortable, more dissatisfied, more cramped within his four walls. An appreciable rise in wages presupposes a rapid growth of productive capital. Rapid growth of productive capital calls forth just as rapid a growth of wealth, of luxury, of social needs and social pleasures. Therefore, although the pleasures of the labourer have increased, the social gratification which they afford has fallen in comparison with the increased pleasures of the capitalist, which are inaccessible to the worker, in comparison with the stage of development of society in general. Our wants and pleasures have their origin in society; we therefore measure them in relation to society; we do not measure them in relation to the objects which serve for their gratification. Since they are of a social nature, they are of a relative nature.


- Karl Marx, Wage Labour and Capital (1847), Chapter 6

<The thoughts of every piece of private property as such are at least turned against richer private property in the form of envy and the desire to level everything down; hence these feelings in fact constitute the essence of competition. The crude communist is merely the culmination of this envy and desire to level down on the basis of a preconceived minimum. It has a definite, limited measure. How little this abolition of private property is a true appropriation is shown by the abstract negation of the entire world of culture and civilization, and the return to the unnatural simplicity of the poor, unrefined man who has no needs and who has not yet even reached the stage of private property, let along gone beyond it. (For crude communism) the community is simply a community of labor and equality of wages, which are paid out by the communal capital, the community as universal capitalist. Both sides of the relation are raised to an unimaginary universality – labor as the condition in which everyone is placed and capital as the acknowledged universality and power of the community. […] The first positive abolition of private property – crude communism – is therefore only a manifestation of the vileness of private property trying to establish itself as the positive community. […] By reducing the worker's needs to the paltriest minimum necessary to maintain his physical existence and by reducing his activity to the most abstract mechanical movement. In so doing, the political economist declares that man has no other needs, either in the sphere of activity or in that of consumption. For even this life he calls human life and human existence. By taking as his standard – his universal standard, in the sense that it applies to the mass of men – the worst possible state of privation which life (existence) can know. He turns the worker into a being with neither needs nor senses and turn the worker's activity into a pure abstraction from all activity. Hence any luxury that the worker might enjoy is reprehensible, and anything that goes beyond the most abstract need – either in the form of passive enjoyment or active expression – appears to him as a luxury.


- Karl Marx, Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts, Third Manuscript, Private Property and Labor (1844)

<We made the mistake of deciding to go over directly to communist production and distribution. We thought that under the surplus-food appropriation system the peasants would provide us with the required quantity of grain, which we could distribute among the factories and thus achieve communist production and distribution […] brief experience convinced us that that line was wrong, that it ran counter to what we had previously written about the transition from capitalism to socialism, namely, that it would be impossible to bypass the period of socialist accounting and control in approaching even the lower stage of communism […] our theoretical literature has been definitely stressing the necessity for a prolonged, complex transition through socialist accounting and control from capitalist society (and the less developed it is the longer the transition will take) to even one of the approaches to communist society. […] Get down to business, all of you! You will have capitalists beside you, including foreign capitalists, concessionaires and leaseholders. They will squeeze profits out of you amounting to hundreds per cent; they will enrich themselves, operating alongside of you. Let them. Meanwhile you will learn from them the business of running the economy, and only when you do that will you be able to build up a communist republic. Since we must necessarily learn quickly, any slackness in this respect is a serious crime. And we must undergo this training, this severe, stern and sometimes even cruel training, because we have no other way out.


- Lenin, The New Economic Policy, 1921

<”We want to do business.” Quite right, business will be done. We are against no one except the domestic and foreign reactionaries who hinder us from doing business […] When we have beaten the internal and external reactionaries by uniting all domestic and international forces, we shall be able to do business with all foreign countries on the basis of equality, mutual benefit and mutual respect for territorial integrity and sovereignty.


- Mao Zedong, On The People’s Democratic Dictatorship, 30th June, 1949

<The present-day capitalist economy in China is a capitalist economy which for the most part is under the control of the People's Government and which is linked with the state-owned socialist economy in various forms and supervised by the workers. It is not an ordinary but a particular kind of capitalist economy, namely, a state-capitalist economy of a new type. It exists not chiefly to make profits for the capitalists but to meet the needs of the people and the state. True, a share of the profits produced by the workers goes to the capitalists, but that is only a small part, about one quarter, of the total. The remaining three quarters are produced for the workers (in the form of the welfare fund), for the state (in the form of income tax) and for expanding productive capacity (a small part of which produces profits for the capitalists). Therefore, this state-capitalist economy of a new type takes on a socialist character to a very great extent and benefits the workers and the state.


- Mao Zedong, On State Capitalism, July 9th, 1953

<I think China is a socialist country, and Vietnam is a socialist nation as well. And they insist that they have introduced all the necessary reforms in order to motivate national development and to continue seeking the objectives of socialism. There are no fully pure regimes or systems. In Cuba, for instance, we have many forms of private property. We have hundreds of thousands of farm owners. In some cases they own up to 110 acres (some 150 hectares). In Europe they would be considered large landholders. Practically all Cubans own their own home and, what is more, we welcome foreign investment. But that does not mean that Cuba has stopped being socialist.


- Fidel Castro, Interview with La Stampa reporter Jas Gawronski, published 2nd of January, 1994

<I am convinced that more and more people will come to believe in Marxism, because it is a science. Using historical materialism, it has uncovered the laws governing the development of human society. Feudal society replaced slave society, capitalism supplanted feudalism, and, after a long time, socialism will necessarily supersede capitalism. This is an irreversible general trend of historical development, but the road has many twists and turns. Over the several centuries that it took for capitalism to replace feudalism, how many times were monarchies restored! So, in a sense, temporary restorations are usual and can hardly be avoided. Some countries have suffered major setbacks, and socialism appears to have been weakened. But the people have been tempered by the setbacks and have drawn lessons from them, and that will make socialism develop in a healthier direction. So don't panic, don't think that Marxism has disappeared, that it's not useful any more and that it has been defeated. Nothing of the sort!


- Deng Xiaoping, Excerpts From Talks Given In Wuchang, Shenzhen, Zhuhai And Shanghai, 1992

<China is not a free market economy. We tried. We let them into the World Trade Organization. We sent businesses over there. We made trade deals. They are a controlled top-down economy. You will never compete and win against them, unless you take back the means of production.


- Hillary Clinton, interview with Chatham House [now deleted from Youtube] (2021)

<China has found a way to use capitalism against us, and what I mean by that is the ability to attract investment into entities that are deeply linked to the state.


- Marco Rubio, interview with Face the Nation on Jan. 29, 2023

<The pure socialists' ideological anticipations remain untainted by existing practice. They do not explain how the manifold functions of a revolutionary society would be organized, how external attack and internal sabotage would be thwarted, how bureaucracy would be avoided, scarce resources allocated, policy differences settled, priorities set, and production and distribution conducted. Instead, they offer vague statements about how the workers themselves will directly own and control the means of production and will arrive at their own solutions through creative struggle. No surprise then that the pure socialists support every revolution except the ones that succeed.


- Michael Parenti, Blackshirts and Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism, 1997

<Taken together, these accounts tell a pretty compelling and straightforward story: a worker state led by a vanguard party has placed the productive forces developed by capitalism under human control once again, for the benefit of the many rather than the few, and so definitively begun the complex and difficult transition away from capitalism and into communism that we call socialism. Capitalists, sheltered and insular in their dealings with fellow human beings, don’t understand that they are not sympathetic characters, so they shamelessly self-victimize in the press in the hopes of winning sympathy from the masses, in a futile effort to rally the necessary fervor for military intervention. The situation looks grim for the forces of reaction. … And then the Western Left bursts onto the scene with a litany of harsh recriminations, determined to build up China into a villain worthy of war: “China has billionaires.” “China still has inequality.” “China still has wage labor.” “There’s no free speech there.” “Suicide nets.” “Free Tibet.” “Xinjiang is East Turkestan.” “Liberate Hong Kong.” “Neither Washington Nor Beijing.” Their indulgence in atrocity propaganda is unparalleled, and they’ll often outdo original sources and even the most vicious reactionaries in their preening paraphrases of Chinese horror.


- Roderic Day, China Has Billionaires, 5th of April, 2021

<If private property, money, abstract value production, class society, and the state, are abolished prematurely, when the oppressive logic and power of capital still controls the entire world, China would become vulnerable to both external imperialist violence and internal reactionary sabotage (no doubt under the banner of “democracy”). The Communist Party would be immediately compromised by foreign backed elements; the country might be torn apart once again by civil war, and once again subjected to imperialist domination. The Chinese revolution, what so many millions fought, worked tirelessly, and sacrificed their lives for, will have been for nothing. Marxism is anything but rigid and dogmatic, and has always been about adapting to the ever changing objective conditions of each era, using what ever is available toward revolutionary goals. The opinion of those baizuo who think that China should have chosen the disastrous course of action described above, or at least remained underdeveloped, poor, and weak, in order to satisfy their fundamentalist interpretation of Marxism, should not be indulged. These myopic and short-sighted “left com”, “ultra-left”, or modern “Maoist” types love to denounce modern China as a betrayal of socialism, without considering that it is the failure of the Western left to do successful revolutions in their countries which made it necessary for existing socialist states to adapt to the global conditions of entrenched neo-liberal capitalism. Those who think that 1.4 billion people, who for 200 years suffered so immensely under vicious colonial rule and brutal capitalist domination, will so quickly forget what their true enemy is, don’t know much about capitalism, colonialism, or people.


- He Zhao, The Long Game and Its Contradictions, 27th October, 2018

>>2556725

Is there even a single Chinese high level politician who even talks about any kind of long term plan to abolish money and commodity production?

The only time they even bring up those things is to shut down people who actually bring up the fundamental goals of communism.

>>2556725
Keynes Supremacy

>>2536064
Do you think the west only became imperialist in the 1970s?

>>2556169
Yeah it's quite discouraging. In my head I justify it by saying that these people are probably still quite young and haven't been able to shed their chauvinistic views yet. Though that might just be my mega cope and all these people are the same age as me lol

>>2556866
Such a thing is predicated on the destruction of the west, maybe that's why they're mum about it

>>2556725
I love these e-communists that quote the holy gospel of Michael Parenti like he's one of the heads or Marxism. Hes the 80s equivalent of a youtube channel that does bitesized digestible videos on Marxist theory.

>>2556920
POV: Finally burning all of Marx’s collected workers and preparing to commit suicide because of my metaphysical evil

t. Honkie suburbanite that thinks “capitalism” is when you are a honkie suburbanite

>>2556986
>he's le bad because he's good at spreading info
weird cope

>>2556986
>how dare you quote somebody if they aren't one of the 5 heads of marxism, it's not enough for them to be correct, they must be world-renowned

File: 1763277238448.png (152.85 KB, 852x902, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2556866
>Is there even a single Chinese high level politician who even talks about any kind of long term plan to abolish money and commodity production?
cheng enfu lays it out here

>>2556488
so when Vietnam freed itself from France that "didn't do shit?"

>>2556986
you got a block of quotes from marx engels and lenin, which you ignored, and then, grasping for straws, you found a parenti quote and decided to use it as an excuse to feel smug instead of formulate a counter argument

>>2557026
Why do you identify so much with the "west"?

Communists in 1941: " nazi germany must be destroyed"
Nazi: "they want to genocide us"

Telling on yourself

>>2562257
You are wrong on all levels. Stop spreading lies about Communism. This phony stagist line is not the official theory of the Communist Party. The creator of this phony three stagism admits it "follows a very different line" from the Communist Party, but also that it "differs in important respects" from Communist China's on-the-ground economic reality. Theory that fails to correspond to the material and economic base it seeks to describe is idealism. This phony three stage theory is a prescriptive checklist divorced from reality. This immediately nullifies all validity and disqualifies it as a representation of the CPC's theoretical framework.
<THIS PAPER FOLLOWS a very different line from China’s official classification of the primary stage of socialism in terms of productivity and standard of living, which in turn differs in important respects from current economic developments in China.
https://dn720006.ca.archive.org/0/items/on-the-three-stages-in-the-development-of-socialism/On%20the%20Three%20Stages%20in%20the%20Development%20of%20Socialism.pdf
>>2556866
The point of Scientific Socialism is to build Communism, not abolish markets. To negate the commodity aspects of socialist direct social products and to attempt to abolish commodity production is obviously erroneous. Ch’en Po-ta, a renegade and Trotskyite, clamored for the abolition of commodity production and exchange during the period of the rapid development of China’s rural people’s commune movement in a vain attempt to lead revolution and construction astray. Chairman Mao saw through this conspiracy in time and engaged him in a resolute struggle. In the resolutions of the Sixth Plenum of the Eighth Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party personally convened and chaired by Chairman Mao, this was pointed out: “This way of thinking which attempts to prematurely abolish commodity production and exchange, prematurely negate the constructive role of commodities, value, money, and price is detrimental to developing socialist construction and is therefore in correct.” Socialist commodity production must not only be retained, but must also be developed to consolidate the economic link between China’s industry and agriculture and between urban and rural areas in order to promote the development of socialist construction.

>>2562264
The counter argument is simple. All westoids are wrong and i will demonstrate
>>2556725
>China intends to build socialism.
This is wrong. China is already socialist. You cite Mao only to contradict him. He Zhao says China has billionaires, but "billionaire" is an imperialist social relation. There is no capitalist private property in China, so there is neither billionaires nor capitalism in China.
Rodrick is also wrong.
<Taken together, these accounts tell a pretty compelling and straightforward story: a worker state led by a vanguard party has placed the productive forces developed by capitalism under human control once again, for the benefit of the many rather than the few, and so definitively begun the complex and difficult transition away from capitalism and into communism that we call socialism.
The "transition away from" capitalism was completed in China in by 1956, so rodrick is wrong because he defies Communist Party. https://www.marxists.org/subject/china/documents/cpc/8th_congress.htm
Parenti is wrong because 20 years ago he said china was neoliberal and that the chinese were poor and colonizing tibet. He is wrong today because he suggests that China is not purely socialist and that westoid imperialists and their agents are in fact "pure socialists."

>>2562323
you talk like a caveman and your "arguments" are assertions

>>2562260
it didnt give westoids any treats so thats why they think it didnt do shit

I speak for the empire but the empire doesn't speak for me

>>2562307
>The point of Scientific Socialism is to build Communism, not abolish markets. To negate the commodity aspects of socialist direct social products and to attempt to abolish commodity production is obviously erroneous. Ch’en Po-ta, a renegade and Trotskyite, clamored for the abolition of commodity production and exchange during the period of the rapid development of China’s rural people’s commune movement in a vain attempt to lead revolution and construction astray. Chairman Mao saw through this conspiracy in time and engaged him in a resolute struggle. In the resolutions of the Sixth Plenum of the Eighth Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party personally convened and chaired by Chairman Mao, this was pointed out: “This way of thinking which attempts to prematurely abolish commodity production and exchange, prematurely negate the constructive role of commodities, value, money, and price is detrimental to developing socialist construction and is therefore in correct.” Socialist commodity production must not only be retained, but must also be developed to consolidate the economic link between China’s industry and agriculture and between urban and rural areas in order to promote the development of socialist construction.
uh yeah "prematurely" abolish commodity production. In full communism its abolished. So yes the point of scientific socialism is to establish communism but communism implies that commodity production is abolished otherwise you will eventually recreate the social antagonisms of capitalism including class. This is basic shit.

>>2566158
You retards are both wrong, probably because you both redefined “socialism” to mean a specific government policy ya stupid cunts

>>2562294
I don’t identify with any nation, faggot


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