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Previous thread: >>2507158

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Previous Thread Archives
Thread 1 https://archive.ph/ROnpO
Thread 2 https://archive.ph/f29Po
Thread 3 https://archive.ph/GZj20
Thread 4 https://archive.ph/ZHfse

Youtube Playlists
Anwar Shaikh - Historical Foundations of Political Economy
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Anwar Shaikh - Capitalism: Competition, Conflict and Crises
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Anwar Shaikh - Capitalism
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Capital Volume 1 high quality audiobook from Andrew S. Rightenburg (Human-Read, not AI voice or TTS voice)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUjbFtkcDBlSHVigHHx_wjaeWmDN2W-h8
Capital Volume 2 high quality audiobook from Andrew S. Rightenburg (Human-Read, not AI voice or TTS voice)
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Capital Volume 3 high quality audiobook from Andrew S. Rightenburg (Human-Read, not AI voice or TTS voice)
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Theories of Surplus Value high quality audiobook from Andrew S. Rightenburg (Human-Read, not AI voice or TTS voice)
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Paul Cockshott - Labor Theory of Value Playlist
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Paul Cockshott - Economic Planning Playlist
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Paul Cockshott - Materialism, Marxism, and Thermodynamics Playlist
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Victor Magariño - Austrian Economics: A Critical Analysis
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Victor Magariño - Rethinking Classical Economics
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Geopolitical Economy Hour with Radhika Desai and Michael Hudson (someone says "he's CIA doing reheated Proudhonism" lol)
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Potential Sources of Information
Leftypol Wiki Political Economy Category (needs expanding)
https://leftypedia.miraheze.org/wiki/Category:Political_economy
Sci-Hub
https://sci-hub.se/about
Marxists Internet Archive
https://www.marxists.org/
Library Genesis
https://libgen.is/
University of the Left
http://ouleft.sp-mesolite.tilted.net/Online
bannedthought.net
https://bannedthought.net/
Books scanned by Ismail from eregime.org that were uploaded to archive.org
https://archive.org/details/@ismail_badiou
The Great Soviet Encyclopedia: Articles from the GSE tend to be towards the bottom.
https://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/
EcuRed: Cuba's online encyclopedia
https://www.ecured.cu/
Books on libcom.org
https://libcom.org/book
Dictionary of Revolutionary Marxism
https://massline.org/Dictionary/index.htm
/EDU/ ebook share thread
https://leftypol.org/edu/res/22659.html
Pre-Marxist Economics (Marx studied these thinkers before writing Capital and Theories of Surplus Value)
https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/index.htm
Principle writings of Karl Marx on political economy, 1844-1883
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/subject/economy/index.htm
Speeches and Articles of Marx and Engels on Free Trade and Protectionism, 1847-1888
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/subject/free-trade/index.htm
(The Critique Of) Political Economy After Marx's Death
https://www.marxists.org/subject/economy/postmarx.htm
50 posts and 21 image replies omitted.

>>2550514
what a convenient situation. These two men who arguably influenced a lot of economic thought in the future, were writing for the same newspaper

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>>2550448
>yet they interpenetrate
yes… but theyre not the same thing.
>for the bourgeoisie, "individual freedom" means the freedom of the individuals in the ruling class to exploit others
yes, this is smith's point. the self-interest of the capitalist is inherently contrary to that of the citizen, and so the individual as such is suppressed (an example of this tendency would be war, which is poor young men dying for rich old men, even as it was depicted in the iliad nearly 3,000 years ago). i am a true internationalist in this cause. marx makes a finer point, that the capitalist himself is a slave to profit, and so his own individuality is subsumed by an alien subjectivity.
>So there is reciprocal action between the individual and society
"society" is not an object (where does it begin and end?)
individuals relate to other individuals. if you dont think so, then you must not think the officer who is "just following orders" has any personal responsibility.
>superintedence does add labour
so why doesnt this labour enter into the value? i would say, like marx says about the slave, that this labour simply isnt paid and so cannot be accounted for.
>If you restructure society in a revolutionary manner to no longer allow for rent, profit, or interest…
a slave society can also manage without those terms.
>if you tax rent and profit you have socialism
taxing rents make sense, but taxing profits makes less, since rents rise with wages, while profits decline. plus, putting a tax on production raises prices arbitrarily, while a consumption tax for example, raises prices proportionally, especially if there is no income tax (which i have previously advocated for): >>2525784
>There is something which determines cost of production [SNLT]
but isnt SNLT measured by costs implicit in the wage (e.g. duration)? so to say, the abstraction of SNLT depends upon standardising labour according to cost, and so the category of labour begins as a cost. i had this discussion in the first thread, where it seems that (SNLT = wage), and not a "physical" relation per se. the importance of considering this is that labour collectively aggregates a median rate of productivity while median wages do not correspond to individual activity. this is why i like marx's idea of allowing harder workers to receive more back in equality with what they give, yet the declaration that people will only get what they "need" in a "higher phase" society seems like a regression. if people are better, let them be better.

>>2550260
>production is limited by the utility of objects
but thats wrong. production is limited by labor

>>2550659
what is labour?
<Lastly nothing can have value, without being an object of utility. If the thing is useless, so is the labour contained in it; the labour does not count as labour, and therefore creates no value.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch01.htm

>>2550571
>the abstraction of SNLT depends upon standardising labour according to cost, and so the category of labour begins as a cost.
yes… but theyre not the same thing, so they are different things and so can be spoken of separately.

>>2550662
how do we define SNLT outside of wages?

>>2550664
i think time is usually measured with clocks

>>2550670
ah, so this is the peepee poopoo time of the thread
i'll check back in tomorrow

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this should interest you: >>>/edu/25237
<Vincent de Gournay, a French Physiocrat and intendant of commerce in the 1750s, popularized the term laissez-faire as he allegedly adopted it from François Quesnay's writings on China. Quesnay coined the phrases laissez-faire and laissez-passer, laissez-faire being a translation of the Chinese term wu wei (無為).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire

>>2549683
This depends on whether the person talking about the financialization of the economy wants to use state capitalism as a temporary solution and a socialist economy in solidarity with the world's workers as the real solution. If the person is fantasizing about returning to capitalism with Fordist class conciliation against "technofeudalism," then this person is ignorant because there is no national capitalist with interests separate from financial capital currently to make any deal. This type of analysis depends on what solution the person will propose or if they understand that current financialized capitalism is a continuation of the previous industrial capitalism that changed as capitalists' profit rates decreased and these capitalists felt comfortable not having an organized threat from radicalized workers against the capitalist ruling class to force the bourgeoisie to make concessions. People who accuse of antisemitism probably don't know the socialist solution, which would involve the use of public enterprises and the democratization of the economy for use value instead of speculation and sale for exchange value to make a profit. This means going against private property and anarchy of production.

>>2548414
>the labour theory of value came from british political economy (1662-)
Bismillah it comes from Ibn Khaldun

>>2548414
>marxism is a perversion of socialism, which replaces british common sense with german mysticism.

observe >>2552890
<The specifics of political economy are decidedly *not* my forte, so I'm unqualified to make any informed take on this. However, your summary of what he's claiming appears to me correct. What I would say is that, in the first place, to understand Hegel (or German Idealism as a whole) to be "mystical" would be to mistake metaphysics for theology. The Left-Hegelians were basically all atheists if not Spinozists; a base materialism which cannot account for metaphysics is, in my opinion, doomed to fall into some vulgar materialism which capitalism and capitalist liberalism expressly reinforces. His general defense of Liberalism, however, is certainly beginning to pick up speed within broader academic discourse as it increasingly seems to people that the out-right rejection of Social Democracy, Left-Liberalism, and French Utopian Socialism was perhaps an over-correction (this is what Walter Benjamin himself was arguing in the Arcades Project, and he presents one of the most damning critiques of Social Democracy ever); the claim that these movements (and ones similar to it) necessarily bring about or reinforce capitalism is a claim that is at the moment beginning to be seriously re-challenged. People like Adam Tooze seem to be rather essential in this moment. In my opinion though, it's probably good to reject "British Common Sense" whenever possible, because their approach seems to me to inevitably lead to the reification of categories (see my earlier comments on Pragmatism). My understanding of Hegel and Marx is, basically, that we should almost never trust common sense.

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>>2552906
"observe" what? this entire reply is a non-sequitur.
and its no surprise that we are expected to abandon common sense to make room for teutonic blather.

as regards the actual state of the argument, i have very clearly articulated my empirical (a posteriori) outlook, as opposed to what is a priori in marxism:
>>2549046
>>2550261
marx is right that "value" has its form of appearance in price, yet he is wrong by stating that there is such a thing as "imaginary" prices. the proof is in the pudding; i can set a price and it doesnt need "permission" to be so self-affirmed. it merely is, as a basic phenomenon. when marxism cant explain the rate of pay for "unproductive" enterprises, it begins to lose legitimacy. now, as i have previously cited, smith indeed posits that unproductive labour is nonetheless still "valuable", which is afforded by its two-fold meaning, as having a "value in use". smith's only argument is that it cannot have an equivalent rate with its output, and so its market rate dictates reward (i.e. supply and demand). so then, smith can conceive of price outside of the strictures of equivalence, while marx appears unable to.

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>>2552846
i first read that it was ibn khaldun in his "muqaddimah" (1377) who established the LTV in graeber's book on debt (2011). aquinas is sometimes said to have done this earlier in his "summa ii.ii.Q.77" (1274) by instituting a theological "just price" as against usury, and so a price which measures the equivalence of labour in exchange (what in aristotelian terms is also noted by marx as the difference between "economy" and "chrematistics"). in reading the muqaddimah with its various internal references, it makes constant note to chapter 5 being the chapter on labour as the source of value, so i will summarise and review this chapter here (sct. 1):

it begins with a theological justification of property, the same as in locke; that God hath given man dominion over the earth. what is further is khaldun's stipulation of self-ownership as the source of man's self-determination to gain (what is called "profit" generally, and so perhaps incorrectly). this differs in part from locke, since locke says that "property" is a fixed element of ownership which comes from mixing labour and nature, while khaldun sees property as an unconditioned right of abstract man, rather than man in particular. khaldun then says that there is a difference between "sustenance" and "profit" relating to income, with sustenance also being related to rightful ownership (as codefied by the "mu'tazilah", apparently - which is a theological movement which affirms human free will and reason, contrary to popular religion. mu'tazilites also saw the quran as man-made, and so these rationalists may be termed as proto-humanist). khaldun further qualifies by stating that though one may acquire means unrightfully, God may still sustain him, as is his Will. khaldun ends this line of thought by stating that both sustenance and profit require labour.

after this, khaldun speaks on money as "measure of value", once more being scriptural in stating that it is gold and silver which measure value. this also differs from locke, who directly states labour as measure of value. khaldun also makes more clumsy comments, claiming that profit rises with labour and decreases with lack of labour; thus, he says, the more employment you have, the more luxury a civilisation also has. this is a misunderstanding (or mis-categorisation) of "profit" generally, since adam smith saw as early as the tudor period in england, the rate of profit fell in line with the falling rate of interest, which is also paired with a rise in wealth. so then, khaldun is seemingly generalising "profit" as "wealth", rather than "profit" as a lack of social wealth, as per british political economy.

moving onto section 2, we see a further generalisation. he states that the vocation of labour, "livelihood" (ma'ash), seeks sustenance as its end. he then appears to further synonymise sustenance and profit, giving different means of obtaining profit: taxation, hunting, fishing, agriculture, craftsmanship and commerce. he claims for example that "profit" in this case comes from appropriating the product of somebody else (i.e. taxation and commerce).

of these livelihoods, he sees agriculture as the original, which is also part of xenophon's praise of agriculture as the essential craft of a nation, in "the economist". this physiocratic thought was also present in quesnay. after this, he sees craftsmanship develop historically and finally, commerce. on commerce he plainly states that profit is made by selling above the price of purchase, and khaldun also stating an inherent gambling inscribed into it, yet of which is legal, since one still gets something in return. so then, profits here are defined by private appropriation, not surplus production (this he repeats in section 9, where the commercial venture is described as buying low and selling high, not selling at an equivalent rate of a surplus product). in section 3, he quickly states that service work is unbecoming of a man and that receiving a wage is undignified. section 4 is not relevant as to any fruitful discussion.

in section 5, he comes upon a truth as to the source of profit, as uncompensated labour. he states that a man of "rank" will naturally have those who serve without want of payment and that this accumulates profit. khaldun relates this to "political power" (imarah) and its means of utilising free labour, in the difference between (as khaldun states) what is produced and what is paid for. so then, we see the way in which this form of profit is constituted by realising value over labour costs. thus he concludes that one may grow rich without working. jumping to section 9, we see supply and demand at work to achieve a gain by disequilibrium (here also however is a slight discourse on "storage" and "travel" and thus the notion of time-preference in the market).

in section 12 he makes a proper distinction between "profit" (ribh) and "profit" (kasb). looking online, it appears that "riba" refers to usury (haram) and kasb refers generally to proper acquisition; sustenance (halal). in section 15, khaldun gives an aristotelian lesson on the habituation of craft; that it is something essentially practiced, not theorised. in section 18, there is the acknowledgement of the value of craft corresponding to its social demand, and thus the price for which is only granted by its sale to customers. in section 21, he discusses the division of labour as qualities and colours of the soul, which are able to be formed from early on, but as they are fixed, they remain. in section 22 he lists all the crafts, from most basic (necessary) to most splendid: agriculture, architecture, tailoring, carpentry, weaving, midwifery, writing, printing, singing and medicine. he appears to make a similar conclusion as antoine montchretien, that all crafts (arts) make up the integral body politic, but what is equal in montchretien's consideration (of liberal and mechanical arts), is subordinate in the division of labour to khaldun. thus, he makes an austrian inference as to order of economic goods and presumably, their economic value. after this, he concludes the chapter by detailing each craft, yet not by adding anything more to a concept of an LTV.

to conclude thus, the attestation of ibn khaldun's supposed founding of the LTV appears flimsy, since it essentially differs with later modern notions.

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>>2553678
>abandon teutono-bolshevik blather for Anglo Saxon common sense!

>>2553678
> when marxism cant explain the rate of pay for "unproductive" enterprises, it begins to lose legitimacy.
unproductive isn't a pejorative, so I don't understand why you're putting it in scare quotes. Marx is pretty clear that they're paid a portion of the surplus value expropriated from commodity production.

>>2554266
ah, but we shan't praise the saxon too keenly, for the scottish enlightenment was celtic. it was originally the saxons who sought to overthrow the "norman yoke" by returning to the "ancient liberties" of england, but it was only in the next century that we got smith and hume from the north, after the english parliament gave the throne to a dutchman.
>>2554691
>unproductive isn't a pejorative, so I don't understand why you're putting it in scare quotes.
it isnt descriptive either, as ive explained. "productivity" is determined by purchase. the difference between marginal and total product serve to illustrate this point: >>2550291
in the classical theory, "productive labour" translates to (TP), while "unproductive labour" translates to (MP). this is why as jevons says, total utility (TU) and marginal utility (MU) are in antagonism, between what smith calls "value in use" (TU) and "value in exchange" (MU).
>Marx is pretty clear that they're paid a portion of the surplus value expropriated from commodity production
this is irrelevant to determing the price of commodities and the legitimacy of the price thereof. what makes a price either "real" or "imaginary"? thats the question.

>>2555140
>ah, but we shan't praise the saxon too keenly, for the scottish enlightenment was celtic. it was originally the saxons who sought to overthrow the "norman yoke" by returning to the "ancient liberties" of england, but it was only in the next century that we got smith and hume from the north, after the english parliament gave the throne to a dutchman.
it's kind of funny saxons wanted to overthrow the norman yoke, but the saxons were themselves once invaders of england, and before them the romans. are english people even indigenous to england? the framework of indigenous-ness (indigeneity?) is used to a lot on the left because of settler colonialism in places like the USA and Israel, but the further back in history you go, the less clear this framework becomes

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>>2555140
>it isnt descriptive either, as ive explained. "productivity" is determined by purchase. the difference between marginal and total product serve to illustrate this point: >>2550291
>in the classical theory, "productive labour" translates to (TP), while "unproductive labour" translates to (MP). this is why as jevons says, total utility (TU) and marginal utility (MU) are in antagonism, between what smith calls "value in use" (TU) and "value in exchange" (MU).
explain this like i'm the guy in the picture

>>2555450
>are english people even indigenous to england?
pedantically, probably not, though I think settler-colonialism is more useful as a model of how states instrumentalize demographics as a means of social control.

on the one hand, colonialism may be extractive, like how Spain co-opted the feudal structures in Mesoamerica and the Andes to exploit the labor that was already present–though replacing them with Spaniards and West Africans as well, obvs

on the other, colonialism may be exterminative, like with the United States, which underwent an extremely extensive settlerist process of destroying the societies of aboriginal peoples (who were not typically yeomen or proletarians) with a stock of europeans who were of the right class character to start scaling up a society for early capitalist exploitation.

both extraction and extermination are processes that may occur in colonial enterprises, and I can imagine this also occurred in colonial projects before the 15th century. IIRC the crusades that aimed to establish a Christian Israeli realm were motivated by some aristocrats wanting to co-opt a realm far away from the wars and squabbles of feudal Europe (though my knowledge on this is very limited)

>>2555450
i don't think anyone would seriously argue the modern english aren't "indigenous" because of some 1500 year old feud, larping academics maybe

>>2556788
well they have been conquered 3 separate occasions by outlanders

>>2556811
Nobody is native with the rare exception of African San-people.

>>2555450
ive discussed in different threads the reputation of the saxons in relation to the britons (celts/gaels), which is something still contentious and politicised today, as it always has been. i'll provide a short literary history…

the founding of britain has its mythical origins in "brutus of troy", a contemporary of "aeneas" (t. virgil's "aeneid", 20 B.C.). this is first discussed in "historia brittonum" (828 A.D.) where the name "britain" comes from "brutus" (such that in virgil's aeneid, "rome" also comes from "romulus"). this origin is also spoken of by geoffrey of monmouth in his "historia regum britanniae" (1136 A.D.), which is also where we first get detail of the king arthur myth - yet, the first ever reference to arthur is in the text "annales cambriae" (~980 A.D.). the date given for his conquest against the saxons is 516 A.D. while his death is recorded in 537 A.D. in the same text however there is a seeming contradiction with later canon, since "merlin" (myrddin wyllt; a real figure in welsh folklore) is described as only becoming merlin "the wizard" after 573 A.D., decades after arthur's death, which is why geoffrey of monmouth mythologises (re-historicises) him as "merlin ambrosius" (historia, book 6), a syncretism between myrddin and "ambrosius aurelianus" (a romano-british soldier who fought the saxons). whats confusing however is that geoffrey inserts ambrosius aurelianus into the story, being uther pendragon's (arthur's father's) brother. the blood relation between arthur and merlin is here then implied, while it only becomes an adoptive relationship in sir thomas malroy's definitive "morte d'arthur" (1485). geoffrey's arthurian literature began a bit earlier though, where he wrote "prophitiæ merlini" (1130) which is expanded and grafted into his "historia", book 7. the prophecy given is the origin of the battle between the red dragon (britons) and the white dragon (saxons), with the saxons gaining temporary victory, yet merlin states that arthur shall have a second coming from avilion (glastonbury) to genocide and expel the saxons. historically, it appears that the norman conquest (1066) serves as the event to propagandise this post-hoc (in the same way that Christ "prophecies" the temple in jerusalem to fall, by authors writing after this event). something which points to the contemporary politics of the prophecy is that in later canonisation, this particular narrative appears absent, and it is only rather that arthur is sent to avilion by his sister morgan la-fey (the celtic triple-goddess "morrigan", composite with the greek "fates", norse "norns" or anglo-saxon "wyrd"). he says that he will be healed, but that he may never be heard from again. it is also claimed that king arthur is indeed dead and buried (t. "morte d'arthur", bk. 21.4-6). so then, within the passing centuries, the adaptation of the myth by french, german and anglo-saxon influence gives it a different character than it originally had. the original welsh myth clearly has the angle of racial vengeance, the same as we read retroactively in the book of genesis concerning the origins of the canaanites from the curse of ham, and to what is later fulfilled in the book of joshua by their genocide. the britons are clearly not a people concerned with racial purity however, since they have no qualms choosing a trojan forefather, a roman guardian and a norman conquerer as representatives. in fact, if you see the largely canonical "celtic nationalism" of today, it is not racialist, but only really anti-english (e.g. all celtic "independence" movements dont want to form a new union, but want to join the EU). in the UK, it is also mostly england and northern ireland whose nationalism is about racial purity (the same as their cousins on the continent). there is a sort of precedence in this as we may read in tacitus' "germania" (98 A.D.), where the germans were said to be untouched by immigrants, and so they clear had never gained a cosmopolitan worldview, such that we see more clearly in the alexandrian and roman empires. ive written previously this historical dichotomy also: >>2543097

now, coming out of these original polemics against the saxons, we may move onto the view of the saxons themselves. british common law first begins in the "assize of clarendon" (1166), and the later "magna carter" (1215/97). the magna carta establishes many things, including the "ancient liberties" of the city of london and "habeas corpus" (freedom from false imprisonment), a theme which becomes propagandised later on. the first to dig up and emphasise this document is "edward coke", where in his "petition of rights" (1628), he invokes the "great charter" to petition for the right of habeas corpus (what only officially becomes law in 1679), to regulate the king's power, in what is later termed "the rule of law" (or the supremacy of the legislative branch of government, e.g. the house of commons, as opposed to the judicial house of lords or executive monarchy). the magna carta is also invoked by later radicals, such as "the levellers" (1641) including "john lilburne" in his "england's birth-right justified" (1645). the levellers were voluminous in their propaganda, as de facto representatives of the parliamentary forces (roundheads) during the english civil war, despite being persecuted by them later on. it is also the levellers who speak about the "norman yoke", such as in richard overton's "remonstrance of many thousand citizens" (1646). the english civil war of course ends with oliver cromwell establishing an english republic in 1649 (abolishing the monarchy and house of lords), which would have been maintained if his heir had any promise, yet he didnt. afrter cronwell's death, there was a restoration, which also never lasted long and britain finally got a constitutional monarchy in 1688 with the "glorious revolution" of william of orange leading to the "bill of rights" (1688) along with the later publishing of john locke's treatises of government (1690). this is often said to be where liberalism begins, as an anglo-saxon project, leading to the US revolution of 1776…

now, on the fact and fiction of 17th century propaganda, there are some things to be considered, the "norman yoke" itself can be said to have given right to the "ancient liberties" in the first place, not merely by statute of the magna carta but also by precedent of "the writ of william" (1067), in which william the conquerer offers security that he shall maintain the same rights in place as were present under edward the confessor. this appears to be the meaning of the "ancient liberties" aforementioned. of anglo-saxon law, hardly anything remains (since it was mostly custom), besides "the laws of æthelbert" (560-616 A.D.) which is simply a series of fines applied by multiplication based on the rank of the injured. this is in germanic law is understood as "wergild" (man-price) and is also in the shariah law of "diyah" (e.g. quran 4:92). so then, all we know of "ancient liberty" is the rigid class structure of various legal penalties, and so it appears that this was simply a fantasy (i.e. the "free-born" rights of the english). however, the cause of right is not simply in englishness, but as "the diggers" (1649) or "true levellers" had it, the right of land held in common ought to belong to those who work in common (what is later individualised by john locke's theory of property, t. 1680). we may in fact read a perfect polemic by gerald winstanley against the levellers on this point (1649):
<O what mighty Delusion, do you, who are the powers of England live in! That while you pretend to throw down that Norman yoke, and Babylonish power, and have promised to make the groaning people of England a Free People; yet you still lift up that Norman yoke, and slavish Tyranny, and holds the People as much in bondage, as the Bastard Conquerour himself, and his Councel of War. Take notice, That England is not a Free People, till the Poor that have no Land, have a free allowance to dig and labour the Commons, and so live as Comfortably as the Landlords that live in their Inclosures.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/winstanley/1649/levellers-standard.htm
locke's own "labour theory of property", as i have previously demonstrated, appears to be a subsequent notion from william petty's composite theory of wealth, where in his "treatise of taxes", chapter 10 (1662) he designates labour as the active principle and nature the passive principle, the same as locke assigning property as a fixity given by mixing one's labour with nature, with locke further stating that labour is the measure of value of commodities, leading to adam smith's contributions…

so, the britons hated the saxons, and saw the normans as a means to suppress them. the saxons hated the normans for denying them their "free-born" rights, which it turns out didnt exist, and that the rights one may speak of are contemporary, and pertain to his property.

>>2556819
>nobody is native
but some are more native than others.

>>2557150
> the original welsh myth clearly has the angle of racial vengeance, the same as we read retroactively in the book of genesis concerning the origins of the canaanites from the curse of ham, and to what is later fulfilled in the book of joshua by their genocide.
kind of how Mormonism has evolved in the US to reject their original 1800s assertion that black people were descendants of Cain, which they had to do for the sake of keeping up with culture, especially now that there are more and more black Mormons

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>>2557150
>so, the britons hated the saxons, and saw the normans as a means to suppress them. the saxons hated the normans for denying them their "free-born" rights, which it turns out didnt exist, and that the rights one may speak of are contemporary, and pertain to his property.

>>2557151
Nope. Fuck your culture and natives. Immigration is historically progressive.

>>2550291
You can live without your haircuts, but can't live without electricity. Productive labor is shared by all the society, including by the providers of unproductive labor, while unproductive labor is superfluous and not strictly necessary for survival of civilization. More often than not productive labor is manifested as a physical good, while unproductive as a service for other people, and unproductive labor cannot be accumulated

So, in short, every productive labor worker has to provide for himself and also pay wages for unproductive labor workers. The only way towards tangible improvement of a society is to invest into productive labor - as opposed to much more profitable unproductive one, because it's much easier to redistribute than to create

>>2557830
> Productive labor is shared by all the society, including by the providers of unproductive labor, while unproductive labor is superfluous and not strictly necessary for survival of civilization. More often than not productive labor is manifested as a physical good, while unproductive as a service for other people, and unproductive labor cannot be accumulated

>So, in short, every productive labor worker has to provide for himself and also pay wages for unproductive labor workers. The only way towards tangible improvement of a society is to invest into productive labor - as opposed to much more profitable unproductive one, because it's much easier to redistribute than to create


you contradict yourself. how is unproductive labor more profitable if it must be paid from the unpaid wages of productive labor? clearly by that logic productive labor is more profitable, since profit is unpaid wages. And unproductive labor isn't profitable at all, but simply subsidized by profit that has already been realized. If anything the profit rate in a society would be zero if there were no production of commodities from raw materials.

>>2557970
Dude, unproductive labor doesn't even necessarily requires any inputs except wages. Tthis means that unproductive labor's profits are more profitable

Again, creation of value vs redistribution - while creation has physical limits, redistribution is limited only by total creation.

>>2558062
but for Marx, profit is specifically the unpaid wages of productive labor, right? For Marx, the wages of unproductive labor are paid out of the profits made on productive labor, but do not in and of themselves generate profit, right? Unproductive labor, for Marx, is defined as labor which does not produce surplus value, i.e. profit.

Marx contends that while the wages of unproductive labor are paid from the profits generated by productive labor, these workers do not contribute to the creation of new profit. Their role is more about facilitating the system of capitalist production and ensuring that the surplus value generated by productive workers can be realized and distributed. Or, in some cases like health care workers, simply performing part of the maintenance of the working class.

>>2554266
If anything Oswald M. was super into teutonic nonsense since he was fuck buddies with Adolf

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what does adam smith anon feel about deng xiaoping

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>>2555458
"productive labour" = greater total profit
"unproductive labour" = greater marginal profit
>>2557813
in romans 9 we see paul use an odd device to say that there are two children of abraham; ishmael and israel. he claims that believers in Christ are israelites, while unbelievers (i.e. "synagogue of satan") are "children of the flesh". in islam, we may also read in the hadith "Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2276" that mohammed is a descendant of ishmael, thus connecting him with the line of abraham. so being a "seed of abraham" is the line of succession to be sought (e.g. royal bloodlines). the "black israelites" also do this, by some claiming legitimacy through moses' wife zipporah, for example.
>>2557830
this is far too simplistic. as labour divides, it inevitably becomes occupied in different positions, and this differentiation allows for greater social wealth (i.e. markets). marginal production attains marginal utility. this is why i say communists have no theory of luxury.
>>2558163
to marx, only productive labour has surplus value, yet unproductive labour still helps to realise this surplus.
>>2559905
i think the idea of SEZs can be used more often in the west - but did you know that the concept of SEZs actually come from ireland's "shannon" zone (1959)?
>>2557828
rambling nonsense.

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>>2558832
this guy was more deranged pro-german and hated mosley.

>Leese soon began attacking Mosley for his failure to deal with the "Jewish question"; he eventually labelled Mosley's group "kosher fascists",[16] and sardonically nicknamed the BUF the "British Jewnion of Fascists"


>Leese despised however the BF policy of allowing former socialists and Jews in the party, contending that it was "honeycombed" with communist infiltrators


>Leese was generally unsatisfied with the policies of the British Fascists, dismissing them as "conservatism with knobs on"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold_Leese

>>2549046
>so then, the greater supply of gold, the less its value in relation to silver, despite the greatness of gold. thus as aristotle says, it is its scarcity which grants its value, or relative price, in relation to all other commodities.

scarcity simply implies a greater amount of socially necessary labor time to procure a useful quantity of something


>>2562826
the value of gold in relation to silver is purely a function of their relative scarcity to one another. this exchange ratio is commented on as early as the 4th century B.C. by xenophon. as aristotle also says, the labour entailed in mining gold is the effect, not the cause, of its value. its value is determined by its scarcity, as a natural quality. similarly, ricardo and marx comment that a commodity only has value in exchange if it has a value in use, and that without this, labour has no recognition:
<Lastly nothing can have value, without being an object of utility. If the thing is useless, so is the labour contained in it; the labour does not count as labour, and therefore creates no value.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch01.htm
this relates to jevons' causation of production costs:
(i) Cost of production determines supply.
(ii) Supply determines final degree of utility.
(iii) Final degree of utility determines value.
https://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/jevons-the-theory-of-political-economy

>>2563933
>(i) Cost of production determines supply.
>(ii) Supply determines final degree of utility.
>(iii) Final degree of utility determines value.

doesn't supply determine cost of production? doesn't it cost more to produce gold from a mine if it is in low supply? you have to find it before you can extract it, and needing to spend more time to find it increases its cost of production.

>>2564846
"supply" refers to what is brought to market, not what is produced per se.

who the fuck is jevons and why should anyone care

>>2565252
a contemporary of marx who has a page on marxists.org
https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/jevons/mathem.htm

>>2565272
yes but why is he posting about him constantly now despite never mentioning him in over a year? is this a cope fad for AI retards?

>>2565278
idk, i think smith anon just posts here about whatever he is reading and has taken an interest in jevons lately, that is my charitable interpretation

>>2565390
well jevons has become popular lately for his paradox that technological improvements in efficiency can lead to an overall increase in the consumption of a resource, not a decrease, and is popular in the context of AI being a bubble and stealing jobs.

and mr smith is obsessed with robot powered UBI and saving capitalist from communist revolution.

this of course ignores the TRPF and that robots dont produce value.

and he is way beyond deserving charitability at this point, but he keeps "according to jevons" as if this is some kind of important thing everyone should know and care about. so basically hes laundering techno-fascist nonsense

>>2565403
>and he is way beyond deserving charitability at this point, but he keeps "according to jevons" as if this is some kind of important thing everyone should know and care about. so basically hes laundering techno-fascist nonsense

well yeah, he's a self admitted centrist lib but he's not going to save capitalism from communism by posting any more than we're going to defeat capitalism by posting.

>well jevons has become popular lately for his paradox that technological improvements in efficiency can lead to an overall increase in the consumption of a resource, not a decrease, and is popular in the context of AI being a bubble and stealing jobs.


I don't even see how that's a paradox. isn't it obvious that automation increases consumption of resource? A man with a chainsaw can process more wood than a man with a steel axe, and a man with a steel axe can process more wood than a man with a stone axe. This is why advancements in technology that increase the speed at which we process natural resources usually end up getting supplemented by other advancements in technology that increase the efficiency of our resource usage. Like miniaturization of transistors for example allow for more computing power to be packed into smaller and smaller chips, which is the principle by which Moore's law operated for decades. We're constantly working with changing situations.

>this of course ignores the TRPF and that robots dont produce value.


I forget what his response to this one was. Something about Marx making up anthropocentric rules I guess

>>2565418
the idea was that an increase in the efficiency of steam engines would result in less coal use, but instead the increased efficiency led to the deployment of more and more steam power driving a demand for more coal. so as computers and AI become more powerful instead of needing less computers to do the same work we will increasingly use computers for more and more things,

presumably they think the increased demand overcomes infinite growth in a finite universe and you dont have to address the contradiction of private ownership

to me it just seems like an adjacent argument to the idea that while new technology like the loom destroys seamstresses it creates job for loom repairs, which as i said ignores the trpf, and of course also ignores that the transition to a service economy relies on imperialist extraction that boomerangs back around to the domestic economy eventually as capital returns to suck the remaining juices that are left in the husk they previously destroyed


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