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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internet about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
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I'm a PhD candidate who actually understands Hegel and has a grasp the broad history/development of left wing thought from Rousseau to Zizek. I'm sick today and remembered this place existed. If you are trying to get a better handle on theory of any kind and have questions on how to go about understanding something, go ahead. I imagine this makes me sound like an ass, but I promise that I'm being totally sincere
85 posts and 20 image replies omitted.

>>2553078
any more detail? Im particularly interested in the angle of people saying theres a tension between trying to derive capitalism from the dialectical tension between use/exchange value etc in a Hegelian fashion vs the actual historical origins of capitalism which are messy and contingent i.e. primitive accumulation and not even the same in europe as other parts of the world, even developed parts like north america

>>2548707
Genuinely, why is it that some left wing people completely deny the existence of race? Do you believe in race? Is this movement aiming to eradicate race as a construct merely to reduce racial tensions between the masses? I could agree with this, although I can’t stand their constant contradictions when talking of specific racial issues.

>>2552795
>>2552830
thanks anon, fortunately I'm a philosophy and literature person so being a paracademic isn't very difficult for me to do since my "research" is just reading books that I can download from libgen. I think every so often about going back to academia because it feels like I'm wasting my potential working part-time when I can and publishing stuff on the internet instead of doing this as a real job that I dedicate all my time to, and I also miss the environment of being around a bunch of other theorycel nerds who are really passionate about discussing and debating the same sorts of esoteric texts, but it makes me feel less worried that my impressions of academia are correct and that I'm probably doing the best I can with this shitty reactionary philistine period of history we're living through. I have thought before about trying to go to grad school abroad because I know France at least has still kept the radical intellectual thing alive but I've always been under the impression that I would need to read and speak French (or the language of wherever else I'd go in Europe) fluently in order to even get accepted into a program, much less be able survive it. maybe I'll look into some of the paracademic programs you mentioned or studying in Ireland. being able to leave the US in general would be a huge plus right now anyways.

>>2553076
Well as the other user said, the claim that ontological monism is false or unscientific is just like, an outright lie? It would need to be very thoroughly shown and even then, it seems to me that, by definition, ontological monism is unverifiable; Hegel's very intervention in Spinoza and Kant is to show how we do know despite not being able to know (i.e., The Dialectic). Deeply misinformed post.


>>2552856
Your mother+me instering my penis inside her her is dialectical. Youre the synthesis.

>>2553070
>says is an ideological understanding of the Dialectical method
Here we have one such philosophizer and mystifier of dialectics. In service of the bourgeoisie, they speak, failing to grasp that all understandings are ideological. They point out the most obvious as if dealing a fatal blow but fell only themselves. Their critique is hollow shell, revealing their own allegiance to the bourgeois myth of "pure," non-ideological thought.
>which is incapable of grasping the logic of the thought itself.
Behold the bourgeois mysticism of dialectics that the founders of scientific socialism slew long ago. True idealists, these sorts fetishize the "logic of thought itself" as if this has any material meaning. They have severed thought from the concrete, material reality it reflects—the very essence of bourgeois alienation. The mystificator hides behind a veil of superiority, yet they provide no concrete explanations or refutations. All form, no content; all accusation, no analysis; a hopeless effort not to win the ideological struggle, but to end conversation. These sorts are living monument to intellectual bankruptcy of the bourgeoisie, which can not argue in good faith, or at all, but only sneer from ruins of its own philosophy.

>>2553090
I do not believe in race inasmuch as one wishes to claim that race possesses physical, natural, genetic reality: this is something that science, without the intervention of any left-wing ideology, has shown for nearly a century now anyway. Now, the typical reaction to this is to show that there are biological differences between people–which is plainly true–but this fact in itself is not equivalent to the notion that race itself actually exists within nature. Race is an idea, a category, which is utilized to group types of people together according to further categories (namely, impressions of similarities and dissimilarities, which, again, are categories of thought used by the subject to organize reality); reality in itself does not posit the groupings or associations or divides between human people, it is our notions and historical habits that do (the two of which, obviously, are somewhat inseparable from one another). Obviously people are different: but the categories (to say nothing of the values we ascribe to those categories) are fictions. They're real fictions that have an impact on real life, to be sure, but fictions nevertheless. Book related is an excellent, excellent tour of this explanation—even if I find their particular terminology a little cringe.

>>2553091
Yeah it all depends on where ya live and what kind of future you really want for yourself. If you go into a program with a large variety of back-up or exit plans? I'd say why not, so long as you don't go into debt over it, who cares.

>>2553113
C'mon pal, why do you write like this.

>They have severed thought from the concrete, material reality it reflects

You've missed the point that thought and reality are co-constitutive; material reality *is* the notion; in your tradition of thought, it has reached the point of presuming one actually has direct access to that material reality, as though it were not itself instantiated by the notion one were attempting to "move past" or "see through"!

OP, thanks for your time.

I wanted to ask two questions. First, can you provide a legitimate layman's explanation of Hegel's core thoughts? I mean, say explaining it to some young guy at a construction site. Because I've been reading this thread and the closest thing I've comprehended was the image you posted with Christoph Waltz, but I still just don't get it.

Second, what should a communist understand about all this and why?

>>2553128
An imperfect but accessible explanation I often use with students is the following–I apologize if it seems overly childish (but you have to remember what gen-z and alpha are like in undergrad these days):

Imagine we have an old-fashioned mechanical clock, like a grandfather clock or an old alarm clock or a wristwatch or what have you: Let's say we want to know what a clock really is. On the one hand, it's perfectly clear what a clock is: a clock is a clock (A equals A)! It seems to announce exactly what it is without our having to much investigate it. But, then we realize, in order to know what a clock is, we have to know how it works: so we have to take the clock apart.

Now imagine we've taken the clock apart, piece by piece, and all of the gears and mechanisms are perfectly laid out as to indicate how it all fits together. Now here's the most important question: Is this *still* a clock? Well, obviously yes–it isn't anything else; all of the parts are the parts of a clock. But, we realize, these mechanisms and gears clearly are *not* what a clock is—it's the parts of a clock.

So, we put the clock back together. There's the clock again! But is this *the same* clock as before? On the one hand, it obviously is and couldn't not be. But, on the other hand, it clearly is not: because we have gone through the entire process of understanding what a clock is by taking it apart and putting back together. The clock we have now is, to us, a fundamentally different kind of clock than before.

This process I've just outlined is, in an admittedly simplified way, the dialectical process: We have recognized that identity necessarily begets/contains/*is* its own contradiction, both internally (within the Clock itself) as much as externally: We know what a clock is not only by what it is, but also by what it is *not*: a clock is not a chair, or a bed, or a feeling. To think dialectically, therefore, is to be able to grasp an idea's intrinsic as much as extrinsic contradictions. Hegel takes this insight much radically further by extending this to subjectivity, material/ontological existence, and the logic of thought itself, not just individual ideas.

As to its relevance to Communists—well, that depends what you're interested in. A union organizer probably does not need to understand Hegel; a communist who wishes to understand the critique of Marxian political economy, and to extend that thought into 21st century conditions, absolutely must.

>>2553053
but how can I relate the subject to the object when I myself am a subject and therefore can't "go outside myself" to conceive of a subject as such

>>2553148
not the same anon, isn't this just the ship of theseus paradox, minus the part where you actually swap out the parts for different parts.

>>2553118
>thought and reality are co-constitutive;
Hegelian nonsense. This is the logic of the priest who says God and the world are co-eternal. To claim reality is "co-constitutive" with thought is to grant the bourgeoisie's consciousness a divine, creative power over the world it merely reflects. This hegelian nonsense is but the arrogance of the class that produces nothing.
>material reality *is* the notion;
Material reality is objective and the "notion" is merely its subjective relfection within the human brain. To claim the map is the land or the photo is the person is but the consequences of Hegelian brainrot.
>presuming one actually has direct access to that material reality, as though it were not itself instantiated by the notion one were attempting to "move past" or "see through"!
Despite what they just stated, this Hegelian says man cannot grasp the material world, yet mankind's "direct access" to material reality is proven continiously when as he acts and subbordinates this reality to his will.

>>2553168
>>2553148
ive always kinda viewed the ship of thesesus as the concept of the thing lives on but the original dies

>>2553172
>yet mankind's "direct access" to material reality is proven continiously when as he acts and subbordinates this reality to his will.
counterpoint: mankind can't subordinate a computer program to determine whether an arbitrary computer program will halt

File: 1762554118143.png (2.2 MB, 1200x1200, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2553148
>This process I've just outlined is, in an admittedly simplified way, the dialectical process: We have recognized that identity necessarily begets/contains/*is* its own contradiction, both internally (within the Clock itself) as much as externally: We know what a clock is not only by what it is, but also by what it is *not*: a clock is not a chair, or a bed, or a feeling.
kind of like you can tell what is missing from this picture by the shape of the hole it leaves without knowing anything else about its internal details

File: 1762554127902.jpeg (82.76 KB, 572x546, 1646279603902.jpeg)

>>2553093
<Well as the other user said, the claim that ontological monism is false or unscientific is just like, an outright lie?

Well, at the very least, it's not materialist; materialism is the view that only matter and physical processes are real. All phenomena, including consciousness, thoughts, and emotions, are the result of material interactions and can be explained through physical means, rejecting the existence of non-physical entities like souls or spirits. So yes, it's philosophical monism, but the difference is that materialism/physicalism is like a type or substance monism, which says all stuff is one kind of stuff, and that's not the same as eastern mysticism, which says all stuff is literally one thing, OR emanated from it like neoplatonism's "the one". That's clearly idealism and possibly even religious.

Classical atomism is the earliest fully developed form of materialism in the Western tradition, basically the ontology of having reduced reality to a fundamental unit (or collection of units) which can be subdivided no further. A sort of ontological reductionism is built in and sort of has to be.

All differences in quality, experience, or being are differences in the arrangement and motion of those same basic units. That’s what makes it systematically materialist: no appeal to form, spirit, teleology, or mind as independent realities.

Hegel's dialectical derivations amount to conceptual overreach, or, in computational terms, that he’s trying to extract more semantic information from a system than it formally contains. From a modern computational or information-theoretic standpoint, that looks like violating conservation of information. Hegel’s claim that thought develops itself into all categories of being is like claiming a finite formal system can generate its own expansion indefinitely. But according to mathematical logic, such self-grounding is impossible if you’re treating reasoning as formal, rule-bound, and finitely axiomatized. Therefore, Hegel's procedure either smuggles in extra information or abandons formal rigor and becomes rhetoric or mysticism.

There's a reason Hegel's method hasn't been formalized after all these years. Hegel cannot be both right and immune to formal scrutiny. The reason he seems immune is not because he transcends formalism, but because his method depends on concealing informal, semantic imports that would become visible (and falsifiable) if translated into a formal system.

If you think of reasoning systems as having information conservation, then Hegel’s "self-generation of categories" looks impossible in principle. When he moves from Being to Nothing to Becoming, and onward through the Logic, he treats each new concept as necessitated by contradiction in the preceding one. A formalized version of that process would have to define the initial axioms precisely, define valid inferential rules, and then show that "Becoming" is derivable from them. But you can’t actually do that. The transitions depend on semantic intuition ("the concept of pure Being, when thought, is indistinguishable from Nothing"), i.e., on human interpretation, not rule-governed inference. The moment you make the rules explicit, you see they don’t entail the next step. Hence, Hegel’s system needs to live in an informal, discursive space to maintain the illusion of necessity.

The parallel is that Hilbert’s program, the attempt to ground mathematics as a self-contained logical deduction from axioms, looked a lot like Hegel’s dream of reason self-grounding itself. But Godel and later Turing and Chaitin showed that no sufficiently rich formal system can capture all truths about itself. Any system complex enough to represent arithmetic will have true statements it cannot prove. And, as Chaitin framed it, you can’t get more algorithmic information out than you put in. So if you interpret Hegel’s "self-developing Logic" as an attempt to found all conceptual truth on the dialectical unfolding of pure thought, then it’s structurally the same ambition Hilbert had, and refuted by the same logic.

This isn't just analytic pedantry; it's a profound epistemological point. If Hegel's dialectic were really necessary in the sense he claims, it should be mechanically reconstructible because logical necessity is rule-bound. If it’s not rule-bound, then what he's calling necessity is actually rhetorical or phenomenological persuasion. That doesn’t make it worthless; it can still capture insights about conceptual evolution, but it ceases to be a logically "self-grounding science." So saying "Hegel is fine; he’s just informal" doesn't save him. Hegel's informality is exactly what lets him pretend his derivations are necessary when, under any formalization, they would fail to be so.

In modern information theory, randomness is one of the only recognized ways to get “new information” into a system. Randomness is epistemic novelty from outside the formal closure. Hegel, of course, denies that the real dialectic has an outside. The "negative," contradiction itself, is supposed to generate novelty immanently, without external input. That novelty could arise from purely self-contained rational contradiction, without external contingency. But that’s the very thing that is impossible.

From the computational standpoint, contradiction =/= randomness. Contradiction is syntactic conflict inside a rule set, not the arrival of new, unencoded information. Unless you relax the closure of the system, contradictions just produce inconsistency, not genuine novelty. So if you model Hegel's dialectic as a formal process, contradiction doesn’t add information; it destroys consistency. If you model it as a semantic process, then novelty only appears because we interpret the contradiction creatively, which is exactly the "smuggling" problem critics accuse him of.

That's what makes Althusser's aleatory materialism so appealing. Althusser's late philosophy rejects this closure altogether. His materialisme aleatoire is an ontology of contingent encounters, modeled explicitly on Epicurus’ atomic swerve; atoms falling in the void that randomly collide and stick together, forming worlds without any teleology or preordained order. In this view, there is no pre-existing essence or goal (no telos). Structure and order arise from chance collisions that happen to "take hold." Once such an encounter "takes," it reproduces itself, but this reproduction follows, rather than precedes, the contingent event. This view allows novelty without appeal to randomness as pure chaos: randomness here is structured, it’s contingency that takes form. That’s how Althusser sidesteps the logical impossibility of deriving novelty from a closed dialectic: he opens the system ontologically to chance.

Althusser’s aleatory materialism prefigures the probabilistic worldview of modern science, particularly Boltzmann's statistical mechanics and quantum theory: Boltzmann grounded thermodynamics in randomness and probability, deriving entropy (the "arrow of time") from statistical distributions of particles. This replaced deterministic necessity with stochastic order (exactly what Althusser wanted in social theory). Quantum mechanics later radicalized this: randomness was no longer epistemic but ontological. The world's structure itself is probabilistic, not the result of a preordained logic. Althusser’s aleatory materialism naturalizes randomness as the true ground of material processes, not as a failure of knowledge, but as the generative condition of reality. So where Hegel's dialectic "conjures" new determinations through contradiction, Althusser’s stochastic materialism produces new structures through random encounters, later stabilized by reproduction (like atoms forming a molecule, or social relations forming a mode of production).

Althusser’s materialism of the encounter is a philosophical answer to the problem of ontological reduction and informational closure. It solves the problem of generating novelty without collapsing into Hegelian idealism or mechanical determinism by grounding all structure in real randomness (stochasticity) rather than in logical necessity.

>>2553173
well you're a ship of theseus, right? You have none of the same skin cells for example as when you were a kid.

>>2553168
Yes, but the difference is that rather than posing it as an aporetic question, Hegel goes to show that the process of negation is the essence of all human thought and subjectivity. My quick and dirty demonstration can be applied infinitely upwards and downwards, which is basically what Hegel does. The next step in the process is to recognize how the process of recognition is historically contingent.

>>2553177
those are skin cells. Neurons however seem to last a life time. And in my view, neurons (aka) the brain is pretty much you

File: 1762554382954.png (294.97 KB, 713x414, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2553180
>Neurons however seem to last a life time.
not if you play contact sports, or do lots of drugs and alcohol!

>>2553182
yeah this is why you shouldnt do contact sports like boxing or do things like drinking too much alcohol. It will give you permeant brain damage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94Xj5tJ_JEc

>>2553187
>permeant
permanent

>>2553180
>. And in my view, neurons (aka) the brain is pretty much you
You're more than your brain though; and just normal contemporary biology will tell you that, don't even need to be a Friend

>>2553176
I don't disagree with your gloss here, but this is also precisely why Zizek continually claims (and I agree with him) that Hegelian Idealism presents a fundamentally truer and deeper Materialism than the physicalist and post-Engels Marxian tradition. Some facts worth keeping in mind here is that Hegel did not appear to believe in the soul, or certainly not a soul that is readily recognizable from the Abrahamic tradition. He did not believe in God God, and he most certainly did not believe in the afterlife (very early on in the Preface to the Phenomenology, he says explicitly that death is unthinkable, an empty abstraction, which signifies and represents total Unthinkability/Nothingness). Whether or not one wishes to call this "spiritual" or "religious" would, it appears to me, have to be argued more seriously. To me, this is about as secular as it gets, since it ostensibly claims that existence is founded upon or is a total void, which came from nothing, and has no predefined path or progression: and it is precisely because of this understanding that there is room for meaningful human free will. If one pays close attention to the materialist, physicalist, and computational theories of existence, one quickly discovers that such models necessarily imply either the total determination of all existence, or quietly slip in what is actually far more theological or inexplicable than what Hegel proposes (this was Walter Benjamin's first critique in the Theses of History as well). And if one does not believe in free will, I personally feel that they have no business being on the left at all.

>>2553196
> To me, this is about as secular as it gets, since it ostensibly claims that existence is founded upon or is a total void, which came from nothing, and has no predefined path or progression:
well that makes sense since Everything is temporary and in flux and Nothing (in and of itself) is permanent

>>2553196
>And if one does not believe in free will, I personally feel that they have no business being on the left at all.
This is the boldest thing you've said so far. I'm agnostic on free will, and mostly I feel the question is meaningless. We feel like we're making choices in the now, but those choices are predetermined by so many variables beyond our control. Maybe it's a sliding scale. The zygote is totally a product of their environment with no freedom, the adult has taken control of a small slice of the universe through their "free will" (or whatever you want to call it) and the senile elderly person, like the toddler is mostly at the mercy of society, with a small amount of "free will" that barely counts.

>>2553196
>and just normal contemporary biology will tell you that, don't even need to be a Friend
autocorrect, my bad. means to read "You don't even need to be a Hegelian to think that." Recent scientific research about the degree to which spinal neurons determine daily consciousness is extremely fascinating in this regard (and can go the full postmodern schizo route with Thomas Moynihan if they're interested—personally, it doesn't interest/concern me that much, but it's fascinating).

>>2553151
Exactly! You've grasped the next moment in the dialectical progression: the subject posits for itself its own outside position, only to recognize that the outside position is necessarily within the subject; therefore, the positing of that position is necessitated by the Subject's being Substance, which is its own self-alienation. Phenomenology of Spirit is, basically, the thorough, step by step by step by step process of grasping the implications of this.

>>2553173
The original lives by its own necessary death (this is what hegel means by aufheben; the negation of the negation; the retaining through disavowal)

>>2553175
Yeah! Or to take it a step further: you can *only* tell what's missing from that picture by the fact of its external background. That would be the full next dialectical step.

>>2553204
Yep; what appears to be permanent is only the logic of grasping of how nothing is permanent—the dialectic.

>>2553209
I privately actually agree with you; for me, whether or not there is a free will is necessarily unanswerable, but the fact remains that reality as it occurs necessarily appears to us as being free (and we within it). What's nice about Hegel, to me, is that he's able to account for free will without God (or at least "God" in any spiritually or religiously meaningful sense–there's a reason why Spinoza's excommunication has never been revoked). >and just normal contemporary biology will tell you that, don't even need to be a Friend

>>2553172
You gotta stop typing like Ignatius J Reilly dude.
>To claim reality is "co-constitutive" with thought is to grant the bourgeoisie's consciousness a divine, creative power over the world it merely reflects.
You have the logic backwards; it in fact simply relegates the bourgeoisie to a historical moment in time. Marx's claim that all reigning thought is that of the reigning class of a time should not be taken so far as to say that therefore all thought possible is necessarily determined by the powers that be. Hegel's system is actually what accounts for this degree of freedom of recognition, not vulgar materialism. To presume that material reality is objective external to the subject which grasps that material reality is itself, in this case, to be actually taking sides with the bourgeoisie—because, (and again, this is your own logic here)—that is precisely what it is that capitalist ideology demands and almost unconsciously reaffirms constantly of the subject. It's unclear, to me, what the real hang-up is here. What is being expressed thus far is in no way incompatible with Marxian analysis of political economy—if anything, it clarifies it and allows the structure of that same analysis to go further, deeper, all while sitting on an intelligible ontological groundwork.

>subbordinates this reality to his will

I'm not aware of any real Marxist willing or desiring to talk like this about reality. Is the task here to "subordinate" reality to will (whatever such a thing might mean in the first place)? The will *is part of reality*; man is inseparable from reality! It seemed to me that in the first place the whole problem of capitalism was precisely that in the pursuit of attempting to "subordinate" reality to man that man ended up subordinating men to other men, with ruthless exploitation. Your position and complaints appear extremely minor and somewhat incomprehensible to me.

>>2553196
well then, is being "on the left" a worthy value at all if we force ourselves to believe in an idea like free will, regardless of reality itself? the current scientific evidence does seem to show that soft determinism is a fairly well backed up conclusion

>>2553242
>if we force ourselves to believe in an idea like free will
I think what Hegel's critique represents here is the opposite ("should we not be skeptical of the skepticism?" as he says) : it's not at all that one has to "force" themselves to believe in free will—free will is clearly apparent in immediate experience. It is a highly, highly conditioned and contingent freedom to be sure (Adorno spent his late career basically trying to determine its definite boundaries), but freedom nonetheless. If being on the left means attempting to get others to recognize the basic underlying equality of dignity and being alive, and to try and organize social structures to defend and cultivate that truth, then one must believe that people have the freedom to think and to act. Otherwise, I mean, the whole thing's meaningless, no?

>>2553251
it's undeniable that there is a freedom (or i think of it as more an autonomy) in the sense that you can choose between actions but you aren't a free agent, the whole idea without really believing in free will would be that you do it to fight for the ability to become truly free, freer than the current day at least

>>2553262
Yeah I agree; this conversation becomes even more complicated once you introduce Freud and Lacan into the equation. Thus Adorno's end-life obsession with its definition. As for Hegel, and I'm not certain how much I myself actually agree with this–although it's not necessarily essential, in my understanding, to the science of logic (the dialectic) itself–all of existence can be understood as the unfolding contradiction of the grasping of freedom; which is to say that all of human history is the attempt to become free. There's a poetic niceness to this, but I myself am not really convinced by the directionality of it whatsoever; Zizek's contribution to philosophy (and it is, people forget, a serious contribution) was to identify that the logics of Freud/Lacan and Hegel were actually identical. In logic of the unconscious, there's an opposite drive *away* from freedom, the death drive, or what Freud calls the primary masochism, which determines much (if not all) of human activity. Psychoanalysis and vulgar materialism shared the problem of determinism—to me (and Zizek), Hegel solves this by reminding us that all consciousness, all being, is necessarily contradictory.

I've been trying to wrap my head around dialectics, but I'm a bit of a brainlet. Are there any good basic resources you'd recommend to help me understand?

>>2553320
The podcast Why Theory, hosted by academics Todd McGowan and Ryan Engley. Their episodes on Hegel and dialectics in general are, imo, the easiest, and most accessible way into it. If you're not interested in dedicating your life to understanding this stuff (and fair enough!), they provide a really great entrypoint/overview.

>>2553331
Thanks mate!

>>2553340
My pleasure, really! Their episodes on "Negation", "Contradiction" and "Retroactivity" are probably good places to start (besides their explicit episodes on Hegel).

The only trick I would say in trying to understand this stuff is that Hegel isn't proposing a system or program of thought, but instead that his entire project is to describe what it is that we are already doing (and, in all likelihood, probably must do) in regard to thought and experience. Best of luck, and don't go crazy.

>>2553331
Love that podcast, Todd McGowan is a total darling of a person, the chillest philosophy podcast

>>2553320
Dialectics is the answer to the chicken and egg problem

>>2553176
>This isn't just analytic pedantry—it's a profound epistemological point.
ftfy

>>2553209
I'd call it patently ridiculous rather than bold.
And that's all there is to say about this ideological construct and its constitutive parts. Too bad, so sad.

>>2552890
>
>Say more! I'm unsure what you're asking. You may wish to read "Dreamworld and Catastrophe" by the great Susan Buck-Morss though (heaven knows who's gonna replace her when she dies, she's one of the last real dialecticians left in America).

Just a vulgar "things have to get worse, to get better" to get better type of thing. The book seems interresting thank you

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>>2553631
>Just a vulgar "things have to get worse, to get better" to get better type of thing.

>>2553631
>>2553635
The kernel of truth within the statement is that circumstances must change, and we must become alienated from the immediate situation, in order to recognize it and grasp what had occurred in thought, but that means that things simply have to be different at all, not necessarily get better or worse. What that means is that instead of attempting to "intensify" or "accelerate" the situation, one simply needs to alter it, alienate it, like Brecht did in his theater.

Mao's theory of contradiction advanced dialectics past Hegel, there is no reason to read Hegel any more unless you are interested in liberal philosphy.


the clock and the ship to me arent great examples of dialectics because most people conceive of a thing as a sum of its parts. so if you take a clock apart and put it back together you are just reassembling the same thing. if you have a ship and you replace the mast its the ship with a new mast. to say we have gone through the entire process of understanding what a clock is by taking it apart and putting back together is better but its a change and a development in the concept of the clock, not in the clock itself, because for the naive person who has never seen the inside of a clock, their conception of it is now changed. A seed growing into a tree or other living things is a much better example. But for the clock itself, it is also not the same, but not just abstractly, the screws now have tool marks, there is a little scratch on the face, there is oxidation on the brass. for the ship without any parts replaced is it the same ship it was ten years ago? now it has barnacles and the outer layers of wood are rotting and their is salt in the sails. is the algae embedded in the wood a part of the ship now? a mast is a thing for a ship but the algae is a thing for itself, or is it? its both. you have an apple, you take a bite of the apple, is it the same apple? You can smell its appleness, this means there are physical parts of the apple inside your olfactory glands, is the apple in your nose? Where do you begin and the apple ends? And the same for the ship and the algae. But this is just a list of facts, what the facts point to is a continuity of identity as these forms of matter repeat across time with slight differences, and as they do we first recognize these forms into concepts, and as they reappear we look at them with recognition. And for the oxidation and the watch, it part of it now, it gives it character. This is my old watch. There is extra oxidation on the left side because that is where I rub my thumb when I check the time. I am a part of the watch and the watch is a part of me. When I interact with the world I am part of it and not separate. And when I claim there is a thing that is the world I am only naming a part of myself, or is that me as the world naming a part of itself as I? When I say this is an apple I am naming a temporarily stable fold in the flow of matter that I am also a part of, that is determined by its history and development in constant flux as it appears from out of matter and then goes back into it. Are you the same you who has not yet smelt an apple? Now you are part apple, you already took a bite and its proteins are becoming part of you. You are becoming apple. Things are not things at all, they are only matter, and appear to us as things because of our conscious thought, and thought itself the rationality of self organizing matter. You can grasp reason not because you are an unbiased and distant observe looking down on things, but because you are things rationally self organized into thinking matter. The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways, the point is that as a part of the world you have the capacity to change it through your conscious action.

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>>2553237
>there's a reason why Spinoza's excommunication has never been revoked
That is exactly what I tell people.

>>2553176
>he’s trying to extract more semantic information from a system than it formally contains. From a modern computational or information-theoretic standpoint, that looks like violating conservation of information.
>a closed dialectic
Do fractals generate more semantic information then what is contained in their definition? Does that violate conservation of information?
Is an object with a finite area and infinite perimeter closed or open? Closed or open with respect to what? No smuggled assumptions please.

>>2553997
>the clock and the ship to me arent great examples of dialectics because most people conceive of a thing as a sum of its parts.
Yeah it's why I'm not in love with the example myself, but it's just for introductory purposes anyway. What's difficult is that while people get extrinsic identity pretty easily (A is equally defined by Not-A), it's hard to get people to grasp *internal* contradiction as well. So what's nice about the clock parts is how it shows that no identity is a Simple identity, but necessarily takes itself apart; that's the contradiction that can be difficult to get. Transcending theYing Yang antinomies I think most people can understand pretty quickly tho

You get any recommendation about the mathy formal stuff or is that out of your scope? Have you ever encountered anyone who claims that Cantor's diagonal argument is bullshit; or more dramatic yet, that the very concept of infinity in math is bullshit?

>>2554599
Yeah ain't my field of philosophy. More of a question for >>2553176 (who I still need to give a real response to)
I also wonder what he thinks of pic related. Haven't read it yet myself (getting extremely mixed reviews–from high praise to total rejection).


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