Leftypol could really learn something from Athenian democracy and the story of Aristides.
The fact Athenian democracy worked so well is what saved them numerous times especially from the advances of the Persian forces.
>>2555248There is more modern version of this Athenian democracy and its Switzerland.
I prefer tyranny
>>2555258Reactionaries probably like to be under boot but only if others are in worse situation so they can feel good about their position in hierarchy.
>>2555258I'm a masochist, I like the pain.
>>2555258a tyrant in antiquity wasn't necessarily bad
>>2555268Yes but no.
>>2555270But a still functioning democracy that saved the city state multiple times. I never said it was perfect.
Persophobic white supremacist thread
>>2555284look up where "caucasians" come from
>>2555270Its still progressive considering every single state practiced slavery during early antiquity.
>>2555293there is literally more slavery today than ever in history. so much for "progress", marxoid.
>>2555295Progress is a dumb illusion.
>>2555295>there is literally more slavery today than ever in history.Not even close per capita.
>>2555303It depends on how one defines slavery
>>2555303cuz slaves r cheaper than dirt now so you can use em up and discard em like trash w/o needing to take care of em unlike before, so there's less concentration in one place like the plantation system
still more ppl enslaved now than ever before, which shows how capitalism is so evil it can make things from the past even worse
>>2555303>>2555306>work for me or starve to deathhow many people exist in this situation would you say?
>>2555307look up historical slave prices and adjust for inflation.
>>2555309>Thus, just before the start of the Civil War, the average real price of a slave in the United States was $25,000 in current dollars>Historically, human slaves were always expensive - around 40,000 US dollars in today's money>Today, the average slave only costs around 90 dollars>While in the 1850s, a slave cost the equivalent of $35,000-$40,000, a human life today averages $90.which is exactly my point, now they're so cheap there's no need to "hoard" them so ofc the amt per master ("per capita") will be less since you can easily dump em and get new ones whenevr u want
>The fact Athenian democracy worked so well is what saved them numerous times especially from the advances of the Persian forces.
How did democracy save them? I don't know much about antiquity. I've heard the French army after the revolution was so good because of mass conscription ("levée en masse") and leaders became more meritocratic instead of being some idiot noble.
>>2555487It didn't. Alcibiades convinced them to vote for the Sicilian campaign which turned fiasco. Sparta wins the peloponnesian war and installs the puppet government that kills Socrates. So much for Athenian democracy.
>>2555272I thought Robespierre had his hand on Napoleon's shoulder for a second
>>2555281We could recreate Athenian democracy with genetically engineered biological subhumans to labour for us
Why didn't their "democracy" save them from macedon?
>>2555306This is true. Its usually involves forced labor by threat of violence. This would make most of former USSR population slaves.
>>2556036yes, cuz wage slavery is only one step up from chattel slavery
>>2555934Don't talk about Belgians in that way.
>>2556039Its slavery with extra steps yes. But its not text book slavery like in the former USSR.
>>2555258popular tyrant >>> aristocracy/oligarchy
>>2556083The more collectivist the leadership is the more progressive it is. The goal should be that everyone partakes in leadership instead of these stone age ideas you have.
>>2556117What if I don't want to "partake in leadership?"
>>2556437
Even oligarchy (like parliamentarism) is more towards collectivist rule than a single tyrant.
>>2555248it is actually so illustrative that athenian democracy was actually the most reactionary and oligarchical state, were power was tied to being a landlord. plato and aristotle knew this this is why they complained about their shitty system.
>>2555281You had to be a non-slave native-born adult male who had completed military training to vote. Up to 40% of the population was slaves btw. It was more like a caste system
>>2555293Not to the extent of Greeks, 30-40% of the population is very high, for reference it was 10-20% in Rome, a small(not precisely known) percentage in Achaemenids and 1% in Han.
>>2556083>>2556117>>2556437You're selling milk to cows, anon.
These leftists don't see the need for unity in Monarchy because they have their one-party apparatus…
>>2569919Having an inbred despot ruling is not unity but complete opposite of it. Only the collective proletariat ruling through democracy can truly be called dictatorship of proletariat.
>>2555248>The fact Athenian democracy worked so well It worked really well for the Athenian bourgeoisie, it didn't work so well for all the slaves and plebs not partaking in "democracy" though. GTFO liberal
As /leftypol/'s #1 monarchy shill, the problem about shilling monarchy to leftists I've come to realize in all my years is monarchists are out-gunned and out-classed by leftists in all ways with monarchy.
It is like selling milk to cows, but I have a small cup of milk and they the cows have a huge tanker of milk.
>oh, multi-parties are dividing, you could be like one family under the monarchyThey hate bourgeois democracy and have one-party corporatism (democratic centralism) and already have their leader personalities…
>but… but don't you want a monarch to lead you?TBH, at this rate their leader figures do way more leading than I could offer. They receive theirs like prophets, meanwhile royalty seem to pale in comparison…
>religion?idk, liberation theology or we're materialists.
…
All I can do is stress the importance of a hereditary leadership and familialism… (which for the latter part the partisanship seems to satiate, one party is like one estate or family).
>>2569920Yeah, you have King People.
Albeit I anticipate all this corporatism will furnish us with monarch-like leaders… If your notion of a State is where all the proletariat act as one man, naturally it lends itself into the leadership of one actual man.
>>2569929>naturally it lends itself into the leadership of one actual man.Completely unnecessary in modern age as you can easily vote on policies on the internet. The real problem is monopoly of violence but even that can be solved with an armed proletariat.
>>2569934Surprisingly good analysis he seems like a sincere man.
>>2555251That makes you a liability to everyone around you, and they’re perfectly justified in treating you like a pariah
>>2570222Milk to cows…
These cows don't want my milk. 🐮 🥛👈
They already have tons of milk – they're cows! 🐄
& if these leftists were going to entertain rightwing ideology, they'd be nazi chuds or fascists over monarchy, which also has us outgunned and outclassed in the modern ageat best monarchy has is religiosity which is a corporatism of its own and satiates it well with Christ so they too don't feel compelled and if they do want a king here on earth the fascist-style corporatism and leader principle covers it which frankly has way more appeal to the burgeoning number of secular people and so as well the religious who admire their popularity and want to get in on that >>2570312Guillotine monarchists.
>>2555270>>2556616>>2569927>>2569930It's hilarious that the best argument against Athenian democracy ITT that you guys can muster is that it's not democratic
enough. The implication is that direct democracy is in fact superior, and that we should take it even further.
I'm of the firm belief that if the Soviet Union had some form of direct democracy, it would still be around today. I'm not opposed to vanguardism, I understand the need for leadership, especially when the people being lead are uneducated workers, but if that leadership is unchecked, it can easily lead you off a cliff.
If the state is going to make a decision that impacts people's lives, it's best to run that decision by the people it's impacting. This isn't me being ideological, it's a cold, hard, practical fact. As soon as the state can be held directly accountable by its subjects, it becomes significantly harder for corruption from within or subversion from without to set in.
>>2556266With sortition, you generally wouldn't have to. It would be the same as jury duty, something that you get called to do once in a blue moon.
>>2556117>>2569920Based based based
>>2569934Cockshott's a gem. If you haven't read his stuff, you owe it to yourself to do so.
>>2610734>Athenian democracy ITT that you guys can muster is that it's not democratic enough.It is interesting how Athens is simultaneously attacked for being too democratic ('mob rule') and not being democratic enough (ie. with slaves and women), but these attacks are expected given that practically the whole history of political thought is an attack on democracy. It's a flawed point repeated too often. Historians, even marxist ones, agree that Athenian democracy was an extraordinary political experiment incredibly ahead of its time, an anomaly from 2500 years ago.
>I'm of the firm belief that if the Soviet Union had some form of direct democracy, it would still be around today. I'm not opposed to vanguardism, I understand the need for leadership, especially when the people being lead are uneducated workers, but if that leadership is unchecked, it can easily lead you off a cliff.Yeah, I also believe that. But the problem was the need for a permanent government when the people aren't meeting. It's like in Athens when the Ekklesia was not gathering it was ruled by a council of 500. The Soviets really had no way to democratically manage hundreds of millions without modern technology, like the type of system that Cockshott proposes.
I've also read about quasi-direct democracy in the early October revolution. Councils in small places where everyone took part in the local soviet effectively worked as a form of direct democracy. There was also a brief period known as regionalism where entire regional soviets functioned independently of the central government, even holding commercial disputes with one another or disobeying the congress. Unfortunately the start of the civil war and the need for a centralized unified military command basically put an end to these experiments.
>>2555248I don't think we should look to a slave-based economy for any kind of inspo. The Athenians were also noticeably worse to women than surround polis, and even had a myth to explain why allowing women to vote is a bad idea
They were good at sculpture but overall a backwards people, even for their time.
Pedophile slaver says what?
Grace posters must be bullied
They are Crypto-monarchist reactionaries who are waiting for an opportunity to turn /leftypol/ into /royalpol/
>>2612750Always found this funny with ancient athens cocksuckers
If you adopt these standards, even the worst dictatorships were democratic lmao
>>2612750but on the other hand sortition was far more democratic than electing legislators. imagine if every current government position was filled by a completely random average citizen. that would still be closer to socialism than modern bourgeois democracy.
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