>the US is closer to the socialist end of the spectrum than it is to having free, competitive markets.
>This really started to accelerate in the early 1900s.
This is true. And almost entire Europe is more socialist than it was 100 years ago.
The federal reserve (central bank) creation in the US has also basically started 2 world wars, the entire state of Israel, the expansionist empire and all it's horrible consequences.
A capitalist libertarian Ron Paul has spent his entire life fighting the most socialist, authoritarian creation in history of mankind (the federal reserve)
>capitalism is when markets
Lol lmao, the natural tendency of capitalism to monopolize has been predicted by communist writers such as Lenin and Marx 100 yeara ago. Maybe open a fucking book?
>>2556929>auth-leftistsOxymoron
>>2556931monopolies form when the state rigs the market for their buddies
that’s not capitalism, that’s corporatism, exactly what Marxist “solutions” make even worse
the Fed literally is your planned economy
>>2556934The private police can arrest me but my taxpayer money can't fund a genocide in Gaza
>>2556933Fed is privately owned by private banks. There is nothing more libertarian than the FED.
>>2556929Argue against incoherent madmen? Honestly I usually just let this sort of person crash out publicly and laugh at them.
>>2556938We would have private armies doing private genocides of people not paying their amazon subscriptions. You may not like it but thats what true freedom looks like.
>>2556936“privately owned” the same way your DMV “customer service” is private
the Fed’s power comes from the state’s monopoly on currency and law, not a free market
libertarianism means competition in money too, not a cartel with legal tender laws and government backing
>>2556939that’s not how free societies work, anon
people in a voluntary system don’t start “private genocides” because there’s no state propaganda machine pumping nationalism and hate into them
the state creates that mindset, flags, armies, “us vs them”
.
>>2556933>monopolies form when the state rigs the market for their buddiesYou are confusing state-backed monopolies (which most prominently existed under Dirigisme) with natural monopolies forming under a "free" market with no regulations. The tendency for monopolies to develope has been the main reason why basically any country has introduced regulations to prevent this. Your arguing for a thing that never existed and never will. The closest example for a "free" market would be 90s Russia unironically and maybe Haiti.
>>2556943“natural monopolies” are just what happens when the state picks winners, kills competition with regulation, and calls it the market
90s Russia wasn’t free market, it was a kleptocracy born out of IMF “shock therapy” and state asset grabs, literal cronyism
real capitalism never got a fair shot because governments can’t resist meddling and printing
the Fed, central planning, subsidies, that’s the monopoly engine
>>2556941>statist propagandaBad
>private mcdonalds genocide evil homeless people commercialsYes this is true freedom!
>natural monopolies” are just what happens when the state picks winners, kills competition with regulation, and calls it the market
Why would a state care if there are winners and losers in a market? Literally most states today accept it as a fact, however at the same time they create a framework where lower level competition can exist via either regulations or subsidies. Most businesses wouldnt survive without the state in the first place because they simple have not the scale or resources to compete. Neoliberalism atleast can recognize that fact which is why most Ancaps basically end up as them whenever they might come in power or start thinking about it for more than 2 second.
>90s Russia wasn’t free market, it was a kleptocracy born out of IMF “shock therapy” and state asset grabs, literal cronyism
Aka the free market. Thats how it works, you got the money, you get the goods. You don't like that?
>real capitalism never got a fair shot because governments can’t resist meddling and printing
the Fed, central planning, subsidies, that’s the monopoly engine
<Real capitalism has never been tried
Yeah, I wonder why a system only depending on buyers and sellers without managing to keeping its workers alive hasn't been "tried" (hint: they did and regulations soon followed lol).
This is embarassing.
>>2556951Forgot to mention: Those regulations existed besides the early workers rights movements and philanthropy and then later the welfare state. Not to hard to understand why these came to be in the first place.
Someone go get the bears
>>2556945All porkies are big fans of the free market until they lose. Just look at what happened with Mercado Libre in Argentina with Shein and Temu. Marcos Galperin and Juan Martín de la Serna were staunch defenders of Javier Milei's anarcho-capitalist government and called for the liberalization of trade until they couldn't compete with Chinese companies and cried to the daddy state to regulate (for their benefit, of course). Big and small business owners benefit from state-protected markets, and then they mature, become powerful and rich, and then they call for “free trade” and privatization. It's the same old story. China understands this, and that's why the concept of Birdcage economics exists.
Makes you wonder why ancaps care so much about taxes and big corp regulation. Its the ideology of corporate lobbyists and their useful idiots.
>>2556929>lolbert arguing from a vibes-based definition of capitalism while making the dreamworks facelike clockwork
>>2556933>it’s not capitalism when it does things I don’t like>it’s muh corporatismlolberts invented a whole separate word for when a system of market-dependence they cheerlead politically goes south in the most predictable way possible so they can deny any complicity
>inb4 NOOO CAPITALISM IS WHEN MUH UNREGULATED EXCHANGEThen by definition Chinese feudalism in 1500 is capitalism, unregulated commerce existed in the Yangtze delta. The libertarian definitions of capitalism and socialism are unserious and vibes-based bullshit
Your argument is based on dumb, vibes-based definitions, try again.
Haha, libertarians are so god damn stupid.
Yeah,guys,i felt for it too before
>>2556929Capitalism isn’t synonymous with the petit bourgeois obsession with “free competition” that befits the position of the petit bourgeois but not big capital
Competition is also not somehow gone just because petit bourgeois maggots have lost, competition doesn’t mean the petit bourgeois must win lmao, it just rises to a higher level of competition between capitalist states and blocs of associated capitalist national states
Libertarianism is a failed ideology because it pretends that the petit bourgeois actually matter
>>2556945>The petit bourgeois rodent genuinely believes that big gubmint is why he can’t compete with Shell in oil production What a retarded class so utterly deserving of annihilation
>>2556929Uh… yeah? Countries get rich when the state does things.
https://youtu.be/zL7klttTsnY?si=LpHSmAX4mqT-gWhZ >>2556929Modes of production have a tendency to build up contradictions between the productive forces and the relations of production until they must break.
What you are noticing with imperialism and military Keynesianism is the contradiction between industrial capital and the tendency of finance capital to form monetary hoards and drive up unemployment. Blaming it all on the bankers obscures the issue of the needs of the industrialists to keep pumping out goods. The same contradiction which drove the reaction of Nazi Germany also drove the historically progressive American Civil War. Northern industrialists knew that Southern slave labor would be unable to produce in bulk the raw resources they needed because slave labor is incompatible with advanced machinery as slaves are liable to sabotaging machinery and are not trained as skilled workers.
Honestly, I really recommend Sohn-Rethel's "Economy and Class Structure of German Fascism" and Baran and Sweezy's "Monopoly Capital" for resources on these issues.
>>2556938There are plenty of private corporations giving money to Israel and plenty of private weapons manufacturers
>>2556938Least naive libertarian gold prize winner
>>2556938In a real (thing that isn’t real, never has been, and never will be). touch grass
>>2556987>Then by definition Chinese feudalism in 1500 is capitalism, unregulated commerce existed in the Yangtze delta.Is that right? I thought one of the reasons people argue capitalism didn't develop in China was, among other things, they were distrustful of merchants and regulated them like crazy and gave them low social status.
>>2557092da, glory to the people's police/neighborhood watch/egolice!
>>2556941>moneyDo you know how money came to be? It came from taxation and tribute of commodities. Without a state taxing in a specific currency there can be no money. Even fake countries that rely on another country's currency need that country to tax in that currency for them to piggyback off it.
>>2557103That is really what libertarians and "anarchocapitalists" believe. I've had 1:1 arguments like this fifteen years ago with ancaps. This guy may be a joker though.
>>2557110You cannot trust any flagposter on this board. I have seen countless times posers impersonating ancaps to get shits and giggles from other leftychuds. The son of a bitch knows if he asks
>how can I debate an ancap?will get no clicks, therefore he pretends to be an ancap and sees what the other retards reply to him so he can go back to the first debate and use that as argument. This story is old as hell. Son of a bitch shat up the board and ran away, how predictable.
>>2557114True, true. Many such cases.
>>2556929>auth-leftists what the fuck is an "auth leftist"
oh its a thread by a braindead ancap proudly showing how fucking dumb they are
>banks basically cause capitalism
tapping the sign: (read Marx's Capital v.3 and stop soyfacing at petite bourgeois small business tyrants as somehow less parasitic than the finance superstructure that floats above them)
>auth-leftists
"Google Bookchin" (I google and immediately find out that this PMC pseud who is the greatest hero of spiritually-Israeli settler socialists admitted he has "no quarrel" with his fellow Jewish PMC neoliberal ally Murray Rothbard, who inspired the alt-right by giving university lectures about the virtues of selling children in the free market, while working as a teacher in Jeffrey Epstein's finance imperialist home New York City)
>BOOKCHIN: Murray and I have a bit of a history together, and I think there've been some grave misunderstandings, perhaps on both our parts. I would rather see them resolved than develop into heated controversy—despite, I think, a not very generous letter that appeared over his signature and Mr. Williamson Evers's signature in Liberty, the Massachusetts Libertarian Party publication. That letter grossly misrepresented my position on Marxism as being a "necessary ideology." That's archaic, to say the least. I regard Marxism as the most sinister and the most subtle form of totalitarianism. There are people, of course, who profess to be libertarian Marxists. I believe they mean very well, and I even write in their periodicals; but I write very militantly that I regard Marxism as a very subtle form of what I would call the totalitarian ideology—all the more subtle because it professes to advance the notions of freedom.
"we need to SMASH THE STALINIST STATE for individual freedom!" - committed anti-fascist Zionist agent Graham Platner
>>2556945where does the state come from?
thats not what natural monopoly means, natural monopoly is when owning something physically excludes competition, like sewer or electricity, or that only one waterwheel fits in a water fall. unless you think people should be making competing power lines on the side of the road. how are you gonna build an oil well when i own this whole field? gonna build one where there is no deposits?
>>2557286
Silence dog
>>2557278You’re mixing up two completely different concepts:
>Physical / infrastructure constraints (utilities, pipelines, rights-of-way)>Market monopolies caused by regulation and state privilege“Natural monopoly” in the infrastructure sense isn’t an argument for state ownership, it's an argument for open-access rules so any provider can use the same pipes/lines without one firm owning the legal gate.
We already do this in telecom backhaul, ports, rail interchanges, etc.
You don’t need socialism to achieve that, you just need property and contract law.
The actual monopolies people complain about (Big pharma, defense contractors, banking, energy cartel) don’t exist because markets “naturally consolidate.”
They exist because:
>Patents extended via lobbyists>Licensing that blocks new entrants>Zoning / land rules that stop competition>Central banking credit favors mega-corporations>Government procurement selects permanent winnersNone of that is “natural.”
That’s state-enforced cartelization, exactly what Marxists demand more of.
If you remove the regulatory moat, capital has to compete again.
Your argument boils down to:
>Government created monopolies, therefore we need more government.That’s how we ended up with the Fed, Lockheed Martin building $2 trillion planes that barely fly, and Pfizer writing national health policy.
You’re defending the disease as if it’s the cure.
>>2557304Welcome to the board Lina Khan. Can't wait to restore the vitalist spirit of capitalism with good old competition.
>>2557066its honestly crazy how aggressively bad lolberts are at undertstanding the economic system they chose to glaze
>>2556987You’re acting like “capitalism” and “state-managed corporate cartelism” are the same thing, which is just historically wrong.
>Capitalism = private property + voluntary exchange.>Corporatism = state-granted privilege + regulatory moats.That’s not a libertarian cope.
That’s literally how every economic historian distinguishes the terms, including Weber, Schumpeter, Hayek, Braudel, and even Marx himself.
Marx explicitly argued that industrial capitalism would merge with the state and create state monopoly capital.
That’s corporatism.
That’s what we have.
So when you say:
>“capitalism naturally leads to monopoly”You’re just repeating the Marxist prediction of state + capital fusion, which is not a free market. It’s the opposite.
The point is: When the state is the arbiter of markets, capital stops competing and starts lobbying.
That’s why:
>Banking is cartelized (the Fed)>Defense is cartelized (5 contractors)>Pharma is cartelized (patent legislation + FDA gatekeeping)>Housing is cartelized (zoning + mortgage subsidies)>Tech is cartelized (IP law + Section 230 carve-outs)Those monopolies didn’t happen because “capitalism tends toward monopoly.”
They happened because the state legally prevents competition.
Your argument is:
>The fire spread because the firefighters poured gasoline on the house.>Therefore we need more gasoline.The corporatist system you’re defending isn’t the failure of markets,
it’s the failure of government control.
>>2557304>None of that is “natural.”no one said it was
You’re mixing up two completely different concepts
>>2557311>They happened because the state legally prevents competition.you forgot to explain where you think the state comes from
>>2557311>>2557304>The actual monopolies people complain about (Big pharma, defense contractors, banking, energy cartel) don’t exist because markets “naturally consolidate.”yes they do. your conflating natural monopolies that exist through occupation creating exclusivity and natural as a synonym for logical consequence. consolidation is a logical consequence of competition, as is regulatory capture
>>2557311lmao you're so fucking stupid its comical
>>2557311when did capitalism begin in history?
and when did it end?
>>2556929Anybody calling themselves auth-left is a dumbass
>real capitalism has never been tried!
>>2557304> it's an argument for open-access rules so any provider can use the same pipes/lines without one firm owning the legal gateAh yes, the public goods problem. More at 11.
>don’t exist because markets “naturally consolidate.”Yes they do, see picrel attached.
>You’re defending the disease as if it’s the cure.The government is inevitable. It is a given. You cannot abolish the government because a new one will be created. You cannot play whack-a-mole because you will lose. Stages of mass empires last longer than anarchy and that is your best case scenario for "no government" because once you grow up, you realize ancapism recreates the same power structure but with fractured pieces. Warlords instead of presidents etc. that eventally goes back to where it started. The sensible strategy is to take over the government and use government power to fix the problems.
lolbert logic:
<people create problems so the best thing to do is kill all people since no people no problems! The people are the disease and total human death is the solution!>>2557311Capitalists using the government as a tool is a natural progression of capitalism. If you have a fire that burns everything, why assume the fire will avoid a really flammable material out of "gentleman rules"?
>>2556929Your political spectrum is all wrong
Socialism > Free markets > status quo > tariffs and immigration restrictionist retardation
High autism score, high openness people are either socialists or real libertarians, low autism score low openness people are at the other side of the spectrum. Midwits like status quo apologia.
In your unregulated capitalist paradise, it would take a single generation for at least one guy to accumulate enough capital and influence to form his own state.
>>2556929You're not an ultraliberal, Harry. Get the fuck out of here. Don't be a retard.
>>2556941Thats even dumber than just accepting the fed is ancapistain realized
>Muh competition Oh look at that. My invisible money of just take your shit and fuck money, fuck civilization, fuck expectations and the nap
>Competition >I win State intervention into markets (to preserve them) is not socialism.
/thread
>>2557144MMT is already dead, you can stop shilling it
>>2557311>Capitalism = private property + voluntary exchange.>Corporatism = state-granted privilege + regulatory moats.Then all capitalism is corporatism.
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