>>2566230yeah he probably means because everyone will be using crypto or some bullshit
>>2566586My guess is hes starting to see planned economy as a viable alternative due to advances in AI. Maybe im just projecting.
>>2566595you are, think about who he is, hes literally a Nazi, no exaggeration. he means some type of slavery with rationing. imagine how it would be for workers stuck on his mars base. that's how he wants all of the world to be. he's a white supremacist eugenicist.
>>2566230it's a pipe dream on the MEDIUM TERM, there's already backlash to AI because these retards couldnt stop salivating about slaving everyone.
>>2566230uyghas in here not reading the chapter on machinery as usual:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch15.htm>automation will kill gabbidalism dis tiem! >>2566917
>liberal describes "communism"
<it's capitalism
>liberal describes capitalism in its death throes
<it's communism
many such cases
>>2567644
I can't help but feel sympathy for maidbot. I'd probably help it do chores.
>>2568103
>all these productive forces posted unspoilered
l-lewd
but actually there's still humans involved. as with all automation, it merely moves where the labour is actually being done. instead of assembling and welding the cars themselves, workers now program and maintain the robots that do those things. we might see maintenance be automated as well eventually
Wondering if TNS and other cybercommunist works have been translated to Nepali, Korean, Russian, or Hindi. I know there's translations in Spanish and Mandarin - and people working on a Vietnamese version - but some of the largest parties on earth are in Nepal and India, and would certainly make use of it, though i'm sure they're already broadly aware of the ideas presented.
Finally finished reading the reproduction schema paper by Alex Creiner which "proves" that in Capitalism, equilibrium of supply and demand is compatible with disproportions in production growing to the point that production completely collapses.
This ugly wall of text really needs some space between the paragraphs and highlighting more words. I made a list of typos to prove I read the thing to the end:
complextion, intenstion (this one gets repeated throughout), apploet, it’s subjects, volumne, it’s increasing level, finished what he started, waiting for capital inflows being which are stuck being hoarded, Marx observes observes, We are now faced with an overemphasized wage capital goods department and an underemphasized wage goods department, cylcle, crisis of disproportionality we are dealing with is not, wage goods are the goods whose use-values lies, use-values they are producing isn’t aren’t, entirely concerned, it’s own, are seen not to produce not producing, are seen blindly investing, would also would, spiraling, can inadvertaently (end of sentence missing here), they abruptly they explode, do a good job, Indeedn, We already noted (where?) that (the author wrote "where" here, remember I'm the one using italics for my comments), it’s subjects, it’s relation, we can clearly see two things clearly, it’s subjects, that that, he could likely have anticipated, value remains, we should address is the issue, fisrt first, it’s supposed function, as. necessary, A true solution to (rest of sentence missing), equaliing, Many Marxists since the controversies about the transformation problem sought to escape them the controversies, Marx at the end of his life ended his life was convinced that, in order to (end of sentence missing)
There are also several instances of "???" appearing whenever a precise reference is missing.
The tone of the paper feels inconsistent. Is the result strong evidence of the irrationality of capitalism or are the model assumptions too unrealistic for that? The author swings from one extreme to the other.
>>2570610is this going to be published somewhere?
I've taken a gander at Creiner's work before. seems reasonable enough. he does go on for perhaps a bit too long around having discovered positive eigenvalues in capitalism
>>2570356There are translations but no one that could influence a country's economy is reading it
>>2573818BИЛЪЯM KOKШOT
is that Safranov in the middle?
>>2573818>А.В.Сафронов – историк, экономист, кандидат экономических наук, ведущий канала «Простые числа».so it seems. historian, economist, kandidat (roughly MSc I think), video (though it almost reads like Veduta's) channel prime numbers. and yeah he's on the Prime Numbers channel
>>2573828Дикбласт must become ДикВласть. Αμήν.
Continuing with my abstract non-proposal from the last thread. I was thinking about a meta-procedure that combines an auction with something else.
Quoting this critique from myself:
>The fixed prices were introduced to deal with worries about raising prices. But to deal with that, it is enough to have a price ceiling.
What are the worries about raising prices really about though? If somebody snatches a thing right before your eyes, what good does it do to know you could have paid the price? It's better to have a guarantee that you can obtain a thing. So I have come to the conclusion that the part of the proposal that isn't an auction should not be something with a fixed price, nor something with a price ceiling, but simply something without any price. And since I got no idea how to combine the parts in an elegant fashion for now, we just do first the part without any prices and then the auction stuff.
Assume a given pile of classified and quantified resources, ready to be used up in the next period. After the central authority has set the Resource Access Power (RAP) of each pseudo-firm, the pseudo-firms should not yet have to participate in the resource auctions. Instead, the central authority sets aside a part of the pile for the pseudo-firms making requests in kind. The hydraulic diagram from a 2D world describes a situation of just three pseudo-firms. On the left, the blue liquid representing the resource sits in a tank that is closed at the bottom. If we let the resource flow, it will go through the pipe into the three vessels on the right and will reach equal level (and the air will escape from the vessels through the pipes they got on top). These three vessels represent the three pseudo-firms. The width of a pseudo-firm's vessel is proportional to its RAP, so these three are equal in that. The size of a pseudo-firm's request is represented by its vessel's volume (and since the diagram is in a 2D world, area = volume). A pseudo-firm exaggerating its request will make its vessel taller, but not wider.
(Maybe it would have been better to show two pseudo-firms in the diagram, one at half the RAP of the other, but I'm too lazy to edit it. Anyway, you should be able to picture what that would look like.)
Only after this procedure is through do we start with the auction stuff.
>>2573879of all porky, musk seems one of the rare breed that are a little bit class conscious as he doesn't expect billions of homeless proles to just disappear when the automation layoffs fully hit
>>2576720class conscious porkies are the most dangerous
For a long time, I've wanted to write a piece on the potential of a social networking platform as the facilitator of voluntary collective labour coordination.
From everyday communication, to house parties, and large scale mass mobilisations, it is clear the internet has revolutionized relations. Why not extend it to organizing production?
Of course tankies prefer to fantasize about political power, but why in general do communists never actually talk about how to organize production in a communist world.
>>2577144Because the porkies have already organised production extremely efficiently and are continuing to rationalize production.
>>2577144Anon read some of the archived threads at the top there have already been a ton of proposals on this.
>>2576720all porkies are class conscious lol
>>2576294 (me)
Continuing with my boring exploration.
I know the hydraulic procedure does not have any prices, but could we do a scalar evaluation of the resources after they got assigned with this procedure, just on the basis of the assignment pattern? (You know, for the accountants.) We could simply do this: For a resource, we look at which pseudo-firm received some of it and just add all these pseudo-firms' RAP scores together. It seems to me that, ''within the constraints that we neither look at excess stocks nor at the request forms nor anything else besides the assignment pattern, this is actually the most fitting measure we can do. If this measure feels weird, it's really due to the method the measure was made for.
>>2583286anon this anlysis fails to realize that porkie doesnt care about what happens after they die. A lot of the porkie will die before collapse happens so who gives a shit about lel future
>>2583306if they can't or don't want to perpetuate class society after they die then they aren't really class conscious, they're just individualists, nihilists, and egoists. For the bourgeoisie to be conscious as a class they would have to want society to continue after they die.
But the analysis in the picture DOESEtake this into account. They hoard more wealth than they can spend in one life time. A lot of them could retire and never run out of money but they choose to continue attending board meetings and doing interviews and shit. They dress up and go places and act important and try to force regulations in their favor. They try to extend their copyrights more than a century. They try to use life extension tech. Elon Musk has a ton of kids. They really seem to think the Earth will survive their bullshit and they want their progeny to inherit their wealth,, on the one hand, but they continue to act in ways which guarantee their downfall, and/or the destruction of the earth, on the other hand. They want to live forever through life extension tech, on the one hand, but they don't create a political situation that tolerates their perpetual existence, on the other hand. They absolutely, as a class, seem to care about the future, but are very bad at understanding that they have outlived their historical usefulness as a class.
Cockshott has been posting videos less and less frequently lately. Someone should block his twitter account, he wastes too much time bickering with Zionists there.
>>2597575he's said he's run out of ideas for videos
>>2597576Here's a good idea: a series of videos on Das Kapital. Where the main ideas of each chapter are summarised and presented in a specifically cybernetic framework (that is, ignoring all the cultural and historic references etc, and going straight into the vectors and matrices).
>>2597577not a bad idea. email it to him
So, is there anything happening in the cybercom sphere? Any news?
>>2583286Unfortunately this is the exact analysis used by John Birch Society to call Eisenhower a communist. The same shit today with Alex Jones calling the WEF socialist etc. The implications are the the Fabians are correct and the billionaires are secret commies is not new analysis. It's almost bait at this point.
>>2583306didn't finish reading the png award
>>2631320that analysis is not being used to argue that billionaires are secret communists, that analysis is being used to argue that porkies are suicidal nihilists and not interested in the preservation even of their own class, let alone the earth, the species, etc.
>>2597576>>2597577>>2597575he could address the critiques of his model by hanhnel and also of the LTV by steve keen in greater detail
>>2597576>>2597577>>26315301. Maybe we should do this? Maybe the torch has been passed.
2. Man's 74. My grandparents were useless or dead by that age. Maybe he's just not cut out for this stuff anymore? Let him bicker with zionists on twitter.
The fuck is Cockshott's last video
>>2632205I would if I had 10% of Paul's knowledge.
Cockshott has no right to rest. History needs him.
>>2640560we clearly need an overseer or some sort to keep him on track with making more videos and to keep him from posting. mush Paul, mush!
>>2640572we must guide Maud'Dib to his destiny
>>2566144This doesn't actually address the division of mental and physical labor and the town-country contradiction. The anarchy of production is solved by training and hiring engineers in Africa and placing the real mental labor done in the hands of the oppressed. Luckily, the internet makes this shit far easier than before.
>>2670726>This doesn't actually address the division of mental and physical labor and the town-country contradictionwhy should it?
I just realized that my English teacher in 5th grade was talking positively about cybersyn
This is the simplest video i could find on linear regressions and this is supposed to be the simplest method
https://youtube.com/shorts/VFHjxQgz724>>2689262I also got gemini pro and it told me fir demand forecasting the best method is called gradient boosted trees. Theres also sentiment analysis with ai to know what people want(like an ai that crawls for news) however in my opinion that part could be done via referendum.
>>2689268"Sentiment analysis" is such an over-the-top name for the concept. Really old idea.
You put labels on words like "positive emotion" and "negative emotion" (or whatever sentiment categories you come up with) and then the "analyzing" part is you run texts through a computer to count the occurrences.
>>2689268it just gave me some code for potatoe demand forecast
#install these
#pip install xgboost pandas numpy scikit-learn
import pandas as pd
import numpy as np
import xgboost as xgb
import matplotlib.pyplot as plt
from sklearn.metrics import mean_squared_error
import warnings
# Suppress warnings for cleaner output
warnings.filterwarnings('ignore')
# ==========================================
# 1. THE SIMULATION (The Potato Market)
# ==========================================
def generate_potato_data(days=730):
"""
Simulates 2 years of daily potato demand.
Unlike electricity (hourly), food is daily/weekly.
Factors:
- Price Elasticity (Price goes up, demand goes down)
- Weekly Cycle (People buy groceries on weekends)
- Seasonal/Holiday Spikes (Thanksgiving, Christmas)
"""
np.random.seed(42)
dates = pd.date_range(start='2023-01-01', periods=days, freq='D')
n = len(dates)
# Factor A: Market Price (Fluctuates randomly)
# Simulating a price between $0.50 and $1.50 per kg
price = 1.0 + np.random.normal(0, 0.1, n).cumsum() * 0.05
price = np.clip(price, 0.5, 2.0)
# Factor B: Seasonality (Potatoes are winter food)
# Cosine wave: High in winter, Low in summer
seasonality = 1000 * np.cos(np.linspace(0, 2 * 2 * np.pi, n))
# Factor C: The "Weekend Grocery Run"
# Demand spikes on Saturday (5) and Sunday (6)
day_of_week = dates.dayofweek
weekend_bump = np.where(day_of_week >= 5, 2000, 0)
# Factor D: The "Holiday Spike" (Thanksgiving/Christmas)
# Nov (11) and Dec (12) get a massive boost
month = dates.month
holiday_bump = np.where((month == 11) | (month == 12), 3000, 0)
# TOTAL DEMAND CALCULATION
# Base Demand (10,000 kg) - Price Sensitivity + Seasons + Weekends + Holidays + Noise
demand = (
10000
- (price * 2000) # Price Elasticity (High price = Low demand)
+ seasonality
+ weekend_bump
+ holiday_bump
+ np.random.normal(0, 500, n) # Random noise
)
df = pd.DataFrame({'date': dates, 'price': price, 'demand': demand})
df.set_index('date', inplace=True)
return df
# ==========================================
# 2. FEATURE ENGINEERING (The Cybernetic Logic)
# ==========================================
def create_features(df):
"""
Teaches the AI how to read the calendar and market history.
"""
df = df.copy()
# 1. Calendar Features
df['dayofweek'] = df.index.dayofweek
df['quarter'] = df.index.quarter
df['month'] = df.index.month
df['dayofyear'] = df.index.dayofyear
# 2. Price Feedback
# The AI needs to know the price to predict demand
df['price'] = df['price']
# 3. Lag Features (The "Memory")
# "How many potatoes did we sell this time last week?"
df['lag_7d'] = df['demand'].shift(7) # Same day last week
df['lag_30d'] = df['demand'].shift(30) # Same day last month
df['lag_365d'] = df['demand'].shift(365) # Same day last year (Critical for Holidays)
# 4. Rolling Trends
# "Is potato consumption trending up or down this month?"
df['rolling_mean_7d'] = df['demand'].rolling(window=7).mean()
# Drop NaN values created by the 365-day lag (first year is just training data)
df = df.dropna()
return df
# ==========================================
# 3. MAIN EXECUTION
# ==========================================
if __name__ == "__main__":
print("--- 1. Initializing Agricultural Simulation ---")
# We generate 2 years (730 days) to allow for year-over-year lag features
data = generate_potato_data(days=730)
print(f"Generated {len(data)} days of Market Data.")
print("\n--- 2. Processing Cybernetic Feedback Loops ---")
df_processed = create_features(data)
# Split: Train on first ~80%, Test on last ~20%
train_size = int(len(df_processed) * 0.85)
train, test = df_processed.iloc[:train_size], df_processed.iloc[train_size:]
features = ['dayofweek', 'month', 'price',
'lag_7d', 'lag_30d', 'lag_365d', 'rolling_mean_7d']
target = 'demand'
X_train, y_train = train[features], train[target]
X_test, y_test = test[features], test[target]
print("\n--- 3. Training Gradient Boosted Trees (The Planner) ---")
reg = xgb.XGBRegressor(
n_estimators=1000,
learning_rate=0.01,
max_depth=4,
early_stopping_rounds=50,
objective='reg:squarederror'
)
reg.fit(
X_train, y_train,
eval_set=[(X_train, y_train), (X_test, y_test)],
verbose=False
)
print("Training Complete.")
# ==========================================
# 4. EVALUATION & VISUALIZATION
# ==========================================
test['prediction'] = reg.predict(X_test)
rmse = np.sqrt(mean_squared_error(test['demand'], test['prediction']))
mean_demand = test['demand'].mean()
error_percentage = (rmse / mean_demand) * 100
print(f"\n--- Results ---")
print(f"RMSE (Error Margin): {rmse:.0f} kg")
print(f"Average Daily Demand: {mean_demand:.0f} kg")
print(f"Error Rate: {error_percentage:.2f}%")
print(f"Accuracy: {100 - error_percentage:.2f}%")
print("\n--- Cybernetic Analysis ---")
if error_percentage < 5:
print("Status: OPTIMAL. The plan is highly accurate. Minimal waste expected.")
elif error_percentage < 10:
print("Status: ACCEPTABLE. Minor adjustments needed in buffer stock.")
else:
print("Status: UNSTABLE. Unexpected market volatility detected.")
# Feature Importance
importance = pd.DataFrame(
data=reg.feature_importances_,
index=reg.feature_names_in_,
columns=['importance']
).sort_values('importance', ascending=False)
print("\n--- What drives Potato Demand? ---")
print(importance)
# Interpretation of top feature
top_feature = importance.index[0]
print(f"\nInsight: The most critical factor driving demand is '{top_feature}'.")
if top_feature == 'lag_365d':
print("Reason: Historical seasonal trends (holidays) are dominant.")
elif top_feature == 'price':
print("Reason: Consumers are highly sensitive to price changes.")
elif top_feature == 'dayofweek':
print("Reason: Weekly shopping habits dictate consumption.")
# Plotting
plt.figure(figsize=(15, 6))
plt.plot(test.index, test['demand'], label='Actual Sales', alpha=0.6, color='blue')
plt.plot(test.index, test['prediction'], label='AI Plan', linestyle='--', color='orange')
plt.title('Cybernetic Agriculture: Potato Demand Forecast')
plt.ylabel('Demand (kg)')
plt.xlabel('Date')
plt.legend()
plt.grid(True)
filename = 'potato_forecast_plot.png'
plt.savefig(filename)
print(f"\n[Visual] Forecast plot saved to '{filename}'") Somebody asked on 4chan the other day whether communist could prove they could do superior planning by proving they could complete a public project on time.
That got me wondering. There is talk about how cybernetic planning could forecast demand. However there is no talk about public projects.
How could the state forecast sonething like how long itd take the chipfab being built in the us for example?
does someone have the new farjoun and machover digitally? it's quite expensive as a physical copy.
>the /cockpol/ thread has more activity than this one
controlsisters, is it over?
>>2761624Wtf is this? Where did u get it from?
>>2761624most programmers work on easy problems, and problems that can be turned into easy ones. in planning, instead of finding the exact solution for a linear program, which is almost certainly NP, we can instead find an approximate solution, which is P
for an example of spooky things happening in the upper echelons of computing, look into the Busy Beaver problem. castorologists have identified Collatz-esque problems to be the big stumbling block at present, and this is for BB(6). that is, we do not know for how long the longest-running terminating 6-state Turing machine will actually run for
Wikipedia has a nice summary of why the Busy Beaver problem is mathematically relevant:
>One of the most consequential aspects of the busy beaver game is that, if it were possible to compute the functions Σ(n) and S(n) for all n, then this would resolve all mathematical conjectures which can be encoded in the form "does ⟨this Turing machine⟩ halt".[5] For example, there is a 27-state Turing machine that checks Goldbach's conjecture for each number and halts on a counterexample; if this machine did not halt after running for S(27) steps, then it must run forever, resolving the conjecture.[5][7] Many other problems, including the Riemann hypothesis (744 states) and the consistency of ZF set theory (745 states[8][9]), can be expressed in a similar form, where at most a countably infinite number of cases need to be checked.[5]this is the essence of the "32 bytes" claim in the beginning. 32*8 = 256 bits. a binary S-state Turing machine can be encoded in 2*S*log2(2*S+1) bits. all machines in BB(6) occupy a mere 45 bits, and this class of programs already contains a very hard problem (the Collatz conjecture). the 27-state Goldbach machine mentioned in the WP text would take 313 bits to encode, and it is likely not even the most difficult machine to reason about in that set
this isn't that important for cybernetics however. control theorists are concerned with practical problems
>>2789841fuck… he sounds like shit… i hope we don't lose him… he's getting so old
>>2790466If cockshott were really as smart as the people in this thread believe, he would stay away from those algorithmic brain-raping machines. That guy lacks critical thinking skills.
>>2632205>Let him bicker with zionists on twitter.yes, feed the machine! Give the machine your full attention! Algorithmic servitude is the best thing there is! Hallowed be Grok! A true cyberneticist becomes one with the machine.
>>2790484imagine if marx was around today. he'd bee cooked.
>>2790484Pro tip: If you're truly fans and supporters of Paul Cockshott, then you should specifically deplatform him from X. It would do him good, and then he'd have a clear head again to make more videos. Because currently, he's wasting his brainpower on pointless discussions with engagement bots on X.
>>2790497i think this is the updated 2020s equivalent of old people in 2010 who got hooked on fox, newsmax, GB news, where they had brainrot streamed directly into their eyeballs like a heroin shot into their skulls. people were complaining that their parents who had been 'normal' suddenly became unhinged Q-anon trump pizzagate kooks
>>2790500if twitter existed in the 19th century, marx wouldn't even finished chapter 1 of Capital
>>2761624those symbols (P, NP, etc.) are complexity classes. some refer to "time" complexity (how long it would take to compute or decide something), others to "space" complexity (how much memory it would take). the graph is a little disingenuous, research has focused on the "simple" problems because that's what can realistically be done with computers. programmers aren't "afraid" of those other symbols, they just avoid them because they want things to actually get done in a realistic amount of time and space
to give you an example related to cybernetics, all of cockshott's ideas in TANS can be implemented and run, even with very big datasets, on the same computer you're using to read this post; but most of härdin's stuff can only be run locally (on your machine) with very small datasets because they belong to slightly higher complexity classes
does anyone here know of any good course on linear programming? I remember finding lectures from some university during covid (I think it was cmu, they had a platform with all their recorded lectures open for the public) but I lost the link. I vaguely remember an exercise about optimizing paper rolls at the end of the first or second lecture
Sidequest theory
>>2761624where did you get this from? Did you just find the image online or was it part of an actual book?
>>2790481anon's point is he shouldn't be the focus anymore because he's old
>>2790567>old people are useless trash and deserve no dignitythats even worse.
>>2790659>is it true that dickblast thinks consciousness don't real? yes
>how are we supposed to have class consciousness then?you cant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kjja-oNyfdI&lc=UgyUuExX9DapVDDvegF4AaABAg.9M9DRCgtIyh9MCmVc8AyBH >>2793339There is a profound irony in watching Paul Cockshott argue on Big Tech plattforms like Youtube or X. Here is a man who built his reputation as a Marxist cybernetician, an advocate for computational planning, feedback loops, and the scientific control of economic systems, reducing consciousness to the firing of olfactory receptors and the mechanical response of cone cells. In the screenshot, he insists that experience is not the “activity of consciousness” but the brute material fact of “the activity of her olfactory receptors and the olfactory bulb in her brain.” Consciousness itself, he declares, is a “vacuous statement,” a mere “stand-in word” that papers over the ignorance of philosophers who refuse to accept that primates see red simply because they have the right photoreceptors.
This is Cockshott the rigorous materialist: nothing but matter in motion, no mysterious “activity” beyond the biological hardware, no patience for the “ignorant early 19th century speculators” who wondered how the brain represents the world. And yet, this same Cockshott is the most perfect example of a mind captured by a cybernetic system he does not control.
X is a cybernetic apparatus par excellence. It senses behavior (clicks, dwell time, rage-replies), processes information through opaque ranking algorithms, and acts upon the user by modulating visibility and dopaminergic reward. The system is designed to steer its objects - its users - toward predictable, profitable outputs: engagement, addiction, and emotional arousal. Cockshott, the expert in control systems and information loops, should recognize this architecture instantly. Instead, he has become its control object.
He believes he is the subject steering discourse, deploying his materialist polemics against idealists and bourgeois reifications. But the platform treats him exactly as he treats consciousness: as a material process to be regulated. His nervous system, his anger, his compulsion to reply, these are not expressions of an autonomous “knowing subject.” They are the regulated outputs of an external cybernetic loop. Every time he logs on to dismiss consciousness as a “bourgeois legal category,” he demonstrates the very thing he denies: a human behavior so thoroughly modulated by algorithmic feedback that the “activity of consciousness” has been replaced by the reflex of engagement. He is not posting; he is being processed.
This is what makes him an X junkie. The man who wrote "How the World Works" cannot see how THIS system works on HIM. He mocks idealists for reifying “the subject,” accusing them of importing bourgeois legal fantasies into philosophy. But on X or Youtube, he himself is reified, not as a legal person, but as a data node. His reduction of the mind to cone cells and neurons is mirrored by the platform’s reduction of him to a user ID, an engagement metric, a retention statistic. The materialist who insists that “it is not consciousness that enables experience” has found the one environment where that is literally true: an algorithmic feed where consciousness is irrelevant and only the mechanical reflex of interaction matters.
Cockshott the cybernetician became Cockshott the controlled variable. He imagined cybernetics as a tool for human emancipation through planning, yet he spends his days as the planned object of a system designed to extract value from his attention. The brain he describes so reductively, merely olfactory bulbs and photoreceptors is precisely what X exploits. And he keeps coming back for more, one reply at a time, proving that even the most hardened materialist can miss the one material system that has colonized his own mind.
OK, TANS has a big input-output matrix and individual choice in consumption items via personal budgets, but aside from that, what freedom will individual people actually have, I mean at their places of work?
There will never be a consensus on what proper working conditions really ought to be. There will not be a consensus on what really is a reasonable weekly work time. At best, there will be an overwhelming majority behind this or that regulation. So what about minority opinions? For the question of work time, we can surely arrange things so that individual people can also work a couple hours more or less, and get higher or lower remuneration. We can likewise have some performance-based adjustment. Both these ideas are already in TANS.
I figure we can do the same thing with many other aspects of work. For example, you may want to be able to come a couple minutes later than usual and just leave a bit later to make up for it without getting into any trouble. You may want to be able to quit on very short notice. You may not want to change your sleep pattern every two weeks because of working a night shift. Think of these job aspects as features you "pay" for through a lower salary, a lower salary that is not set that way as a punishment, but based on estimates on how these features negatively affect productivity.
Let's think of the configuration of jobs available not a something that entirely results from targets about what is to be produced, but as something that is also constructed around the job features in high demand by the workers.
>>2794976as far as I know he never really addresses the contradiction between consumers wanting more things more cheaply and workers not wanting to labor
>>2794976you can't plan with input-output. you need LP
>>2795025that contradiction is easy to resolve: develop the MoPs
>>2795355
we can simply decide what the length of the working week is, and everything follows from that. this doesn't prevent people from doing things as a hobby
>>2795040>aithe point of cybernetics is that planning can be done with discrete algorithms, not AI
>>2796590>the point of cybernetics is that planning can be done with discrete algorithms, not AIyes
>>2795040
>Where is the schizo creating the planned economy bot. You would think there would be one Terry Davis MF working on an AI for that exact purpose>>not enough Data>Use as much data that is already available. Better sooner than lateroec.world has a lot of data, from several nations, but that's just trade flow. idk how you convert trade flows into plans. and who cares about making planning software if there's nobody in power to actually implement those plans? The world is still divided into nations doing destructive "geopolitics" that race to the bottom and dedicate trillions in resources to strategically outmaneuvering each other. Countries will destroy trillions of dollars to secure billions of dollars. It is an irrational and suicidal system: Capitalism.
>>2795981>we can simply decide what the length of the working week is, and everything follows from that. anon that's not how planning works because different commodities are produced and consumed at different rates, and services also have variable demand. In a war you need surgeons who remove bullets and shrapnel working around the clock for example.
>>2796641uhuh. and in that case we will notice whether we hit the surgeon constraint and we will have to decide whether to relax the labor constraint, to train more surgeons or to simply let people die
>>2795040>Where is the schizo creating the planned economy bot.I got you a schizo, alas, the stuff is rather bottom up. Eh, it's not like Communization Theory is any better, so…
https://milahu.github.io/alchi/src/whoaremyfriends/whoaremyfriends.htmlI already
read skimmed the whole thing. This guy proposes that everything should be organized through a network of people classified by his personality scheme: male or female, young or old, in combination with 1 of 4 psycho types = 16 personalities in total. So that people who would be enemies interact through intermediaries they find tolerable.
Right at the beginning he shows the diagram "
Pallas key" and speaks of you having 4 friends, represented as the ends of a cross; and 4
common friends represented by the diagonal. In case you wonder where you are on that diagram, you count actually as one of your own friends and also one your common friends. Do a ctrl-f for
Me and my six friends to see this more clearly. The M and F mean male or female, S and L stand for young and old because why not, and the number is the Jung-ish psycho stuff.
<Each village has 144 people (Dunbar's Number) = 9 x 16 people. Each village is at a distance from its neighboring villages (otherwise it would be a part of a city). Each village has self-sufficiency and self-defense, a mix of eco-village and Shaolin monastery, permaculture and martial arts, farmers and soldiers (symbiosis).Self-crit:
<The big weak-spot is: I must correctly estimate personality types.<The small weak-spot is: I must measure relation quality.A few more quotes I pick by a method that is opaque to myself:
<Children are allowed to choose their educators.<I am looking for the one percent of people who are smart enough to understand me, and strong enough to realize my ideas.<So we are somewhere in the middle of the life cycle of the human species, and now the only question that remains is: How do we want to die?<In my world, children should do both at the same time: learning and working.<I know what is beautiful myself. (Autonomous) Because I don't give a shit about your grammar.<The empire is fundamentally against everything that comes from below, so against direct democracy, against referendums, against folk heroes, against selforganization, against selfsufficiency, against small states.<Perhaps in the future, there will be no humans in Western Europe, only jungle and wild animals, like in "Asterix and Obelix", and in the summer, tourists will come to hunt bison and wild boar.Enjoy reading this and don't forget to click on the
details triangles for more text (sometimes in German). By the way, there is a
GIGATON of misanthropy and conspiracy stuff in it. Last third is his fav sayings and rap lyrics.
>>2796774>or to simply let people dieok then you haven't really abolished social murder through economic planning
>>2799494we live in a world of Actual Machines, anon
>>2795025In my estimation, the solution is automation. The robot will never complain about working 24/7, and its existence means a human doesnt even have to do that job.
Many jobs you can't legally just do because you feel like it, you need to have credentials in the form of certificates that cost a lot of money. I asked myself: What would be the anarchocommunist version of that?
I figure a very rudimentary social network could replace at least some of that credentialing business, just a public database full of statements of the form:
<I, [name], say [person] is better at doing [activity] than me.
No freeform writing with LLM analysis, just fixed activity descriptions no longer than three words.
People could follow chains, like Alice saying Bob is better at cooking than herself, Bob saying he is not as good at cooking as Carl, and so on. Of course, there could be such "better than me" endorsement chains between people going in both directions or in a circle. In that case, the system could highlight the shorter chain.
>>2799933automation just creates new jobs, like overseeing, cleaning, repairing machinery. It can decrease hours worked, or it can get workers fired, it can create a crisis of overproduction, but it never gets rid of human labor completely. If it did get rid of human labor completely it wouldn't get rid of class struggle, it would force bourgeoisie to either subsidize the proles subsistence with UBI, so that they could live without a job, or they would try to kill off the proles and make the entire automated economy run for them and them alone… which doesn't make much sense when you consider that our productive capacity is already capable of feeding, clothing, and housing everyone, but the bourgeoisie force artificial scarcity by destroying commodities during a crisis of overproduction, instead of just giving them away.
>>2803572>>2803454If ai did permanently replace human labor it would basically turn 90% of the population redundant and the new class division will be rentiers vs lumpens in a cyberpunk post capitalist tech Neo feudal society
FAFA voting - a proposal for how to elect a regional soviet from local districts.Some common problems with election systems, existing ones as well as proposed ones, in no particular order:
- Dominated districts.
Some districts are so dominated by a particular group that this stifles motivation to get informed and involved (true for both those inside and outside the dominating group).
- Wasted vote for loser.
People worry about wasting their vote on a loser instead of supporting a lesser evil.
- Wasted vote for winner.
In some proportional systems, people worry about wasting their vote on a winner who does not need that support instead of being pivotal for a candidate on the edge of winning.
- Parties baked in.
In some election systems, the existence of parties is necessary because you vote for a list.
- Complexity cost.
For some proposed systems, the burden of a) understanding the gist of the method or b) filling out a valid ballot or c) counting… can be far too much.
Keep these points in mind while reading this (or when trying to come up with something better):
The elections are done separately for each district. So we will just look at one district in the following. Initially, a sample is drawn of three people from the district (as in the other districts). People in the district then vote with approval ballots, approving either all three or none or any number between. The marks on the ballots are counted in two ways, full way and fractional way.
For the resulting ranking of the three people, we count the marks
fully, meaning one mark on a ballot is worth one point, no matter how many marks are on that ballot. (Ties are resolved in favor of older people.) All three become delegates, no matter what. What does the ranked result mean, then? Well, the delegate ranked first will also be a delegate
next time, the delegate ranked last will NOT be a delegate next time, and the delegate in the middle will only also be a delegate next time if approved now on over half the ballots. So next time we will have to resort again to sampling for either one person or two.
The delegates will have variable voting power in the regional soviet. For determining a delegate's voting power, we count the received marks
fractionally (so on a ballot with two marks, one mark is worth half a point). Some people in the district will vote, some will abstain. Imagine two districts with exactly the same number of people with voting rights, but in one district far more people bother voting, meaning they can increase the voting power of their delegates relative to the delegates of the other district.
If you understand the above you should be able to explain the difference between you voting for all your local delegates, submitting a blank ballot, and abstaining.
FAFA stands for:
Full
And
Ffractional
Aapproval
If you feel this is a silly method, think about the the criteria listed at the beginning. If you are honest, you have to admit these are sensible criteria. The method does well by these criteria. So if you want to argue this is a silly method, don't just say it feels weird (I already agree with you on that). You need to formulate at least one more sensible criterion to make the case against FAFA.
>>2807124 (me)
In case anybody wonders: I do know how to count to five. The board software fucked up my numbered list.
>>2807124>voting>>2807031>If ai did permanently replace human labor it would basically turn 90% of the population redundantread:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch15.htm >>2807153Cybernetics is the science of steering, which is something workers' councils do :P
>>2807276this post seems to be made in jest, but it actually makes a great point. the word "government" has the same root as "cybernetics" after all. the appropriate level of delegation of responsibilities (center vs local) has been and will be a point of struggle in a DotP. thanks to cybernetics we also know certain things that such councils need, such as accurate data and a continuously updated model of the systems under their control
>>2807031did you read what anon said before replying. they basically said what you said but with more detail and considering more factors
>>2808200You are the provocateur. Read Cockshott and understand that voting is to be done on referenda and the recall of representatives who were given that position by being randomly selected. There will be no elections, candidates, or voting for your representatives.
The only people voting for their commanders in elections are the citizen's militia.
>>2809373>things will be exactly like this because Cockshott (pbuh) says soI find sortition interesting but nothing at all says that things will/must be precisely like Paul proposes. this kind of utopian whining makes me more sympathetic to the aristocratic nature of MLism
>>2809382I just call these people Epsteinites because they think that themselves and their little circle are the chosen ones with their shibboleths and slimy little sophist rhetoric - they see power like Marx said the capitalist sees commodities, as inwardly circumcised jews.
Hey retarded fagoot, it doesn't matter what the fuck Cockshott said, even though in reality if you read the books, he is just reiterating arguments that Aristotle and Marx put forward. What matters is the
mathematics of the reality of elections. Read the books or fuck off forever.
>>2809373>recall of representativesWhat TANS actually says about recall:
<The fact that the vote is restricted to workers does not stop elections being an aristocratic system in the classical sense. Politics becomes a matter for the politicos. Like all aristocracies, it degenerates into a self-serving oligarchy, and is eventually replaced by an ‘honest’ bourgeois plutocracy. The idea that a right of recall would be an effective constraint on this process is laughable. The right of recall is written into the state constitution of Arizona, and was in Stalin’s Soviet Constitution without noticeable effect. It takes the collection of tens or hundreds of thousands of signatures to secure the recall of an official. It is bound to be a rare event compared to regular elections, but if elections do not keep officials in line why should recall?This could be addressed by having randomly drawn juries decide regularly on whether to do recalls, but let's be clear, this is not what Cockshott proposes. If you combine sortition with a recall procedure, you end up with a sortition-voting hybrid. The FAFA thing in
>>2807124 is of course also such a hybrid.
>>2809682What is the title of that section? Oh yeah,
Democratic Centealism a dead end Bht we aren't talking about Demcent are we you slimy little rat. Here's the part Mr.Epstein censored:
> Lenin's notion of democratic centralism, whereby the outstanding class conscious members of the working class, organized in a communist party, are elected through a system of workers councils to form a worker's government is fundamentally flawed. It seeks to build a democracy on an institution of class rule: elections. The fact that the vote is restricted to workers does not stop elections being an aristocratic system in the classical sense. Politics becomes a matter for the politicos. Like all aristocracies it degenerates into a self-serving oligarchy, and is eventually replaced by an honest bourgeois plutocracy.Yes recall with unrepresentative elections is rightly rejected, but the right to recall randomly selected representatives is still progressive and legitimate.
Not that it matters, as it is common fucking sense that if an atomwaffen person is randomly selected by sortion, as is democratic, you want to be able to vote to remove him from his position, but Cockshott clearly states this in his lecture embedded. In addition:
>The first and most characteristic feature of demokratia was the rule by the majority vote of all citizens… As Burnheim argues, the principle should be that all those who have a legitimate interest in the matter should have a chance to participate in its management. That means recalling selected citizens. AHHHHHHHHHHHH
>>2809888demcent != vanguardism. demcent is a far more general concept. the institution of globe spanning planning is an aspect of demcent. it doesn't take much thought to realize why this must be so. the need to enforce a global CO2 constraint is enough to realize this
>>2810306That movie fucks
>>2810306I did read the book. sortition is a very interesting tool to uphold democratic centralism
>>2809888>What is the title of that section?Irrelevant.
>you slimy little rat. Here's the part Mr.Epstein censoredTake your meds.
>Yes recall with unrepresentative elections is rightly rejected, but the right to recall randomly selected representatives is still progressive and legitimate."Progressive and legitimate". You just played the internet tough guy and two seconds later this vague shitlib talk.
Recall and election are both meritocratic selection.>>The first and most characteristic feature of demokratia was the rule by the majority vote of all citizens… As Burnheim argues, the principle should be that all those who have a legitimate interest in the matter should have a chance to participate in its management.>That means recalling selected citizens.It is certainly not explicitly said there and I also don't see how that follows. If it follows for you, can you make an argument as to why voting for a person does not follow as well. You certainly haven't made a logical argument here. (You sound to me like somebody who believes that range voting with scores zero to
minus nine is an innovative and fundamentally distinct method from range voting with non-negative values.)
>>2810306Again, recall was not in the book.
>>2810572Recall under demcent is different from recall under Democracy. You conflate the two which makes you slimy.
Progressive means the elimination of class distinctions and an increase in automation. This is not liberal concept. Ask a CPC member if legitimacy is a liberal concept.
You're just using bikeshedding to try to challenge fundamentals and reintroduce the elections as legitimate which makes you a rat. 🐭
>>2810733>Recall under demcent is different from recall under Democracy.Are you having a stroke? If you meant to write "under
bourgeois democracy": The right to recall in the USSR was practically meaningless as the bureaucratic hurdles were to high, as Cockshott & Cottrell had pointed out in TANS (relevant section already quoted in
>>2809682).
>>2811897how to stop The People (tm) from collectively deciding to dissolve random selection and recall out of spite and laziness?
>>2789841I have trouble following the Manhattan thing he talks about. Anyone have some insight into this?
The "logic" of the last couple posts:
<Hey guys, what if we first draft two people by lottery and then select one of them?">Bourgeois, reactionary, you are basically Epstein for thinking this.<Hey guys, what if we first draft two people by lottery and then deselect one of them?">Based, revolutionary, you are the dialectical Einstein.>>2811934Look at a square grid on paper. Think of the lines as streets. Mark a point at one crossing roughly in the middle of the paper. Go a couple blocks North, a couple blocks East, and mark another crossing. Let's pretend the world is flat, then: Euclidean distance = air distance = the shortest line connecting the two points. Manhattan distance means following the streets.
If we move 3 units
North, 4 units
East, then the
Length of the trip is…
…for a bird: N² + E² = L²
3² + 4² = 25
L = 5
…on foot: N + E = L
3 + 4 = 7
L = 7
Think of using
all of a given budget for obtaining various quantities of two commodities, X and Y. You can graph all the possibilities on paper. A bundle gets a point with an x-coordinate representing the amount of commodity X in that bundle and the y-coordinate representing the amount of commodity Y in that bundle. One extreme would be spending all on X, the other extreme would be spending all on Y. All the other possible spending-all-the-money bundles lie on the straight line connecting the two points.
Look at the origin of the graph (where x and y are = 0). The bundles we are thinking about are equal in money terms, but have different air distance from the origin. So this equality is not captured by Euclidean geometry.
>>2811934https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxicab_geometryIt's a heuristic method. You can ask AI about these things, it's pretty good when it comes to explaining mathematical concepts and why they work to predict outcomes.
>>2812787Thank you for your acknowledgement, but I have a sense that you still don't fully understand. Election is an aristocratic function and recall is a democratic function.
From Cockshott:
>It was quite clear from classical political theory that election was an oligarchic or aristocratic principle. It involved the deliberate selection of the 'best' people, the aristoi, to high office. And who are our 'betters' but the upper classes, the more educated, the more wealthy, etc. Any system of election is inherently biased against the lower classes and favours the upper classes. Elections are inherently oligarchic and elitist.
>Let's look at the principle of recall… it is mainly of use in dealing with manifest incompetence or corruption. Individuals who are manifestly incompetent or corrupt can be replaced. The reason why it is of limited use is that in order to effect the right of recall you actually need to get an awful lot of signatures [votes…] That may be worthwhile, it may be of some advantage, but my contention is that wherever this exists it doesn't radically change the class character of the political system. It's mainly a control on corruption. >>2812796>Election is an aristocratic function and recall is a democratic function.The quoted snippets merely say that recall does not fix elections and do not praise recall to high heavens. Elections and recall are both methods of sorting people into the deserving and undeserving. Recall is a type of election.
My actual position is that the qualities of election methods are dependent on scale in such an extreme way that it feels kinda fraudulent to even use the same names. One may write two texts to describe two election methods, one to be used by eleven people to choose one among them and another to be used by eleven
million people, and one may choose to make these texts identical except for a few numbers. One may then use the same name for the methods (that's what everybody is doing and isn't that intuitive?), but the two very different scales will work out in very different ways.
At a small scale, elections work out okay-ish or better (there are some interesting alternative voting methods); at big scale elections are horrendous. With sortition it's the opposite. Imagine filling a single position instead of a committee… And this is why you are jumping at the opportunity to add some
electastic sauce to sortition, doing this in the form of a recall mechanism. Understandable, but you seem to have a taboo or weird mental block against saying the sauce is what it is.
>>2812840no one deserves anything, least of all you.
>>2812790>You can ask AI about these things, it's pretty good when it comes to explaining mathematical concepts and why they work to predict outcomes.I've done that before but I always get scared I'm tricking myself into thinking I understand but really I'm just making myself even dumber and more confident at the same time
what do people in here think about liquid democracy?
>you can give/retract your endorsement of a representative at any time>endorsing someone essentially gives them your voting power>you can retract your voting power on any issue and vote on only that issue directlyhere's one implementation:
https://liquidfeedback.com/en/ one trait of this particular implementation is that there is no voting secrecy. personally I see this as a positive. secret ballots are liberal cowardice
>>2813032this is aristocracy (elections) not democracy. Secret ballots are a fundamental right long established to protect citizens' right to vote freely without reprisals. Honestly read a fucking book before you come in here attempting to invert reality with your newspeak.
>>2813055>voting freely without reprisalsno. stand for your fucking opinions
>>2813032LD is a good system but it needs a pretty heavyweight bit of accountability behind it otherwise it'd be very prone to corruptions and scandal.
What LD needs is a serious online interface so you can actually manage where you're delegating when and where, I do not want to have the same guy managing my vote on tech subjects as the guy I would delegate to on alcohol law and i want to vote myself on gun control.
>>2813032also i dont think abolishing voting or delegation secrecy is a good idea. There's been plenty of open-source software examples of why seeing names on github etc. can cause problems
>>2813349Interesting PDF, thanks!
>>2813388in that case you'll have to ditch any kind of computerized remote system, because there's no way to guarantee voting secrecy that way
>>2813032Already discussed in the older /cybercom/ threads:
https://archive.is/xBFYYhttps://archive.ph/Afx5actrl-f
liquid >>2813799if you have a system connected to the network, it's an inherent security risk
I think some of the sortition fans in here place too much stock in Paul Cockshott Thought. democracy can only be won after the population has been appropriately indoctrinated. to institute "democracy" in the USA for example, where a sizeable part of the population are MAGA, would be disastrous. I do not want to give MAGA people any kind of power. we must reeducated the people first. only then can we possibly speak of democracy. to think freely is great. to think correctly is greater
>>2814034The video is realistic, given the absolute state of current tech, yet i feel not all of the pessimism is entirely warranted. If bitcoin can digitize currency, so would a sufficiently clever voting scheme be able to work. Here's my crack at it:
- Voters get issued two keys over a secure channel or from their local seat of government.
- The first key is used to symmetrically encrypt and sign a message containing the vote.
- The second key is an access token to a public gateway server, that anonymously forwards the message to a secured counting server and expires the token in case of success.
- The counting server then identifies and decrypts the message.
The necessary infrastructure could be spread out over multiple counties. This does not assuage fears about infected end users, but it does makes intrusion harder, provided the gateways are well cared for. It would also enable the creation of large-scale digital marketplaces for votes…
>>2814106anon people much smarter than you have already thought about this problem very hard and concluded that nothing beats pencil and paper if secrecy is a concern. 1) and 2) in your scheme ensures the state knows exactly who voted for what. it also doesn't guarantee votes are actually counted correctly since the actual counting is inscrutable
a lot of these issues go away by abolishing secret votes. that doesn't mean we might not want to use secret votes for some things. but importantly, it is practically impossible to do correctly with computers
>>2814274>anon people much smarter than you have already thought about this problem very hard and concluded that nothing beats pencil and paper if secrecy is a concern.Probably, but thinking about it is fun regardless.
>1) and 2) in your scheme ensures the state knows exactly who voted for what.The anonymity aspect hinges on the fact, that only the department issuing the keys to a specific voter, ideally exactly one person, who prepared then sealed the documents, has ever seen both at the same time. Neither of the keys would later be associated with an identity, since the only information left over is the number of keys in circulation and the number of received votes less than or equal to it.
>it also doesn't guarantee votes are actually counted correctly since the actual counting is inscrutableWhat the scheme leaves behind after votes have been issued, is a set of cryptographically verifiable messages. Handling this data would be more complex than ensuring the physical security of ballots, but you still have tons of options involving secure checksums, redundancy and cryptographic ledgers.
This is more or less how i would picture it working:
- A central goverment authority prepares a list of keys based on the total number of registered voters.
- Your local government securely receives its alloted number of keys and is responsible for giving them out to the voters.
- The voters connect to a gateway run by the local government, which forwards its messages over a secure government netwok, until reaching the central government authority. If you want to leave a paper trail, hook up a line printer to every server along the way, which records a secure checksum of every message.
- The program at the end of all this isn't very complex and should thus be easily audible: Get a list of keys and encrypted messages to decode, then sum the votes from the individual messages.
To commit forgery of a vote, an attacker would need have a vote encryption key and either an access key or the ability to inject votes without anyone noticing. Deanonymizing voters would take a large-scale effort to infiltrate local government, record key identities and look them up from the internal voting record, which i think is in the same scope as someone bribing the postal service to deanonymize mail voting.
>>2813032You can have ballot secrecy but only for non-delegated votes. Delegatees have a higher responsibility and sacrifice their privacy. If you want privacy you can take it back at any moment through an individual vote.
>>2814605yes a hybrid system could work. but there's another important factor: cost. how often could we feasibly hold secret votes on things? once per year? one per month?
How to deal with gluts and shortages? The obvious way is via price adjustments (also my fav because I'm a bore), but some people propose enacting per-head limits or a combination of mechanisms. Each mechanism is also a measurement of sorts. When just one mechanism is used, how intensely the mechanism is used is also a general measure for the size of this or that glut or shortage, so one can make comparisons across the economy and this helps with prioritizing. But how to estimate excess demand for two products while for one product the price is raised and for the other a per-person limit is applied?
It is possible to use a combination of mechanisms to deal with supply-demand mismatches and still have a measure of the intensity of these mismatches for the whole economy if and only if these mechanisms are arranged into a rigid hierarchy. For an example of how this can be done, take a look at the following monstrosity.
This requires that people do not use cash, but a system of electronic accounts tied to the individual which makes possible to have individualized rewards and punishments. People living together can opt into linking their accounts to a simple algorithm that automatically gives them the result they would get when coordinating perfectly their purchase behavior to maximize the rewards and minimize the punishments and swapping items between them. (This is not the same as a shared budget account as the individual budgets remain firmly in the hands of the individuals.)
The hierarchy distinguishes between 11 cases, these being 5 levels of glut + 5 levels of shortage + the normal case with the normal price.
GLUT LEVEL 1: The price is still the normal price, but payment of ½ the price is deferred to 30 days later without interest charge.
GLUT LEVEL 2: Same as level 1, but there is also a rebate offer for one extra unit per person bought within 3 days of the first unit of just paying ½ the normal price without having to pay the second half later. (This is also applied retroactively.)
GLUT LEVEL 3: Now the price is set to ½ the normal price in general and not just as a rebate. (The rebate effect is not stacked on top of that. Deferred debt from the product obtained at glut level 1 is deleted.)
GLUT LEVEL 4: Price set to 0.
GLUT LEVEL 5: Price set to negative.
And now to the shortage levels.
SHORTAGE LEVEL 1: The normal price still exists, but individuals who buy a second unit within 3 days have to pay 2× the normal price.
SHORTAGE LEVEL 2: The price is set to 2× the normal price for everyone.
SHORTAGE LEVEL 3: Keeping the price at 2× the normal price and there is a limit per head within a 30-day period.
SHORTAGE LEVEL 4: Taking all the crap from level 3 and adding a waiting list or lottery.
SHORTAGE LEVEL 5: Production canceled.
Any idea what we should name this? I feel pretty meh about it, so I would like a name that reflects that. Don't overthink the details in the above, a lot of these choices are arbitrary. The point is, if you want a measure and you mix mechanisms, then you need to have a hierarchy.
>>2814920>SHORTAGE LEVEL 5: Production canceled.wut, shouldn't you increase production instead? by say investing in MoPs
>>2815223
yeah but why would you stop production when demand is non-zero?
Unique IPs: 90