/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

I will NOT disconnect the proletarian movement with its history under the COMMUNIST banner.

>>2568425
>I will NOT disconnect the worker class movement with its history under the COMMUNIST banner.
fix'd

>>2568432
You're clowning if you think the average person will react that way

Some terms I like are 'economic democracy' 'no leaders' 'fairness' 'eliminating poverty' etc etc

you can just say workers' rule porkies drool and all will be clear

The real reason why workers dont listen to communists is not because of "scary words". It's because of completely false and contradictory positions held by communists.

Things like "North Korea is actually a based proletarian state and totally not a hereditary dictatorship" for example.

So no amount of epic based 300 autism score tacticool propagandizing is gonna work when your basic political positions are hands down retarded.

>>2568487
The class position of most communists definitely affects their ideology, but it's not like some genetic determinant thing. Marx Engels Lenin etc were genuine revolutionaries.

>>2568486
>You must denounce the DPRK, you must spread anti DPRK talking points in order to be a trve communist
>Also the main obstacle to spreading communist ideology is our hypocrisy and discongruent positions

I think you've got your priorities a bit messed up anon. Repeating state department talking points is never helpful, also you might be retarded and a lib sorry

>>2568521
He's right, the main priority of true communists is dying for the freedom of Ukraine, Kurdistan, Taiwan and South Korea against the Axis of Evil Authoritarian States (EAS). After that there will be an epic global revolution where NATO countries will just surrender and the global proles will rule forever.

>>2568450
There's no average person because there is no sensible distribution of the essential characteristics of particular members of society to deduce averages, and there is further no such thing as an average person because there can only be general representatives of classes, which push concrete class interest.
You are retarded if you think the workers are not smart enough to understand Marxism

>>2568521
>>2568486
Whenever someone asks about DPRK just say "who cares"

>>2568486
Most IRL communists aren't going around defending the DPRK, that's a very terminally online phenomena.

>>2568563
I defend the norks, as do most of the local gommies

one of the things i would really support is never calling the party "communist party" becasuse there are SOME PEOPLE who even inside communist party will say "no but this isnt a communist party, it's just the name, communism is Stalin and all this is a socialist party". like it dosent really matter, you're not going to attract anybody by calling yourself communist over any other name, what is important is your program, your structure and your rank and file, if all of these components resemble a communist party we should totally avoid the communist party name.

>>2568580
Seems counterproductive to hide your ideology out of fear of what others will think of the word "communist"

>>2568432
That's not what dictatorship means.

From Merriam-Webster
1
: the office of dictator
2
: autocratic rule, control, or leadership
>people suffering under his dictatorship
3
a
: a form of government in which absolute power is concentrated in a dictator or a small clique
>… the statutory and constitutional constraints which distinguish a democracy from a dictatorship.
>—Center for National Security Studies, et al. v. U.S. Dept. of Justice, 215 F.Supp.2d 94 (2002)
b
: a government organization or group in which absolute power is so concentrated
>rising up against a military dictatorship
c
: a despotic state
>establishing a dictatorship

>>2568589
Some words sound really scary, like “dictatorship.”
Most people think it means one mean boss who tells everyone what to do.

But in Marx’s ideas, the same word has a different meaning, like when a word has two meanings in different games.
For Marx, “dictatorship” means all the workers are in charge together, not one scary ruler.

So it’s a scary word, but he uses it in a non-scary way.

"MODS REMOVE THIS COUNTER-REVOLUTIONARYISM"
In fact everything you've said is correct,but unfortunately most leftists feel some kind of superiority over common people,thinking that people should stick to them whenever they open their mouth and believe in every personal idea they have,not what's their ideology is about in general.That's what i can tell.

>>2568589
>bourgeois book tells me communist term is bad
illuminating

>>2568584
maybe in countries where the word can attract people, but definitely not in the west and in many other places too

>>2568591
>the same word has a different meaning, like when a word has two meanings in different games
Imagine you have a hamburger…

Hehe, Happy Tree Friends reference.

>>2568635
People are gonna find out that your org is defecto communist eventually, there's really no point in trying to hide it

>>2568655
i literally told you there is, words also have an emotional value, many people dont fully understand what communism/socialism means and you have a lot more luck not using the word communism. once they enter the party you'll have a chance in educating them but not before

>>2568668
That's ridiculous anon. People who distain communism/socialism are not gonna join your communist/socialist party if you just give it a different name. Nor should you want them to. If public perception is skewed against these term, then you have to change that perception through your partywork and organizing. The only reason I could see to hide yourself and your ideology like that is if communist/socialist parties are banned, but even then the feds are gonna find out about it pretty quick if you just name it something else

>>2568701
Correct.

>>2568701
say it louder for the liberals in the back

I found a video on titkok with the same nominal purpose, trying to hide left positions under language conservatives will find palatable, and what the video was actually doing was trying to launder center, center-right positions (public option instead of single payer or public healthcare) by passing them as left wing, very insidious hall-of-mirrors shit. I wouldn't do this too much.

>>2568420
Of course the dumb workers would never come up with happyworkerism, they have to be educated by a smart student outsider.

>>2568420
I like to use the term Social Fascist, workers always react positively

Fascist = anticapitalist (Nazis were socialist)
Social = people have control (not the state like in evil communism)

>>2569211
You are dumber than a bag of rocks.

>>2568420
Pedant. There are averages, sure people aren't the same but there are broad similarities to be found. It's not even about being smart exactly (though many people are fucking dumb) but just more about a lack of interest in general, most people distrust politics

>>2568906
Until the workers spontaneously organise I think we can say that activists do still have a role

>brooo the problem is we're not using the right words bro!
this is fucking ancient discourse
the horse was beaten to death, left to rot, the flies ate everything, and the bones turned to dust

>>2568420
The basic idea is good but you're operating from the unfortunate misunderstanding that the point of communism is to actually deliver communism. That's the idea, but it's not what happens in practice. The point in practice is more like a religion, a set of symbols and doctrines that make you better than others, that let you judge people based on how well they've memorized their catechism, etc. Marx would hate it, but as good materialists we must analyze what is rather than what we would like to be.

Thus people like
>>2568425 (no! the bible must be in latin!)
>>2568432 (latin isn't even that hard to translate!)
>>2568521 , >>2568550 (yes, yes, the bible is all very good but the task before all TRUE christians is to prevent constantinople falling to the saracens!)
>>2568555 (actually, all the Christians I've met have both the time and inclination to read and write latin. who've you been hanging out with?)
>>2568591 ( “When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’ ’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’ ’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”)

It's a shame because the whole thing really is a good idea, it's just totally let down by the people implementing it. All that stuff about turning the other cheek, rich men not getting into heaven, banger after banger after banger, but then the cunts came on board and selected a random grab-bag of nonsense to canonize and now we're sitting around critically supporting one set of obvious heathens against another while the forces of the devil advance day by day. Bleakly, if we stick with the Christian analogy, putting Marxism in the common tongue will just open up new branches of stupid heresy. We've got prosperity gospel, why not prosperity Marxism..? No ethical consumption under capitalism, using these 5 patented tricks the orthodox economists won't tell you I got rich buying and selling gold…

As with christianity, the truest believers in communism are the most naive. I love them. I love them as jesus loved all men. The rest deserve the sort of punishments god used to deal out in the old testament. Sophists, elitists, cranks, obsessives, miserablists, sociopaths, hobbyists, bores, LARPers, bigoted coffin dodgers, intellectual masturbators, temporarily embarassed cult leaders, and of course myself. It is easier for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven than for any of these people to pass into a classless, stateless, moneyless society.

>>2569925
pseud drivel

>>2569931
sure, i am a pseud. what are you? you're certainly not a communist in any material sense. the point is to change it, and you will change nothing.

>>2569925
Forced analogies are not materialist analysis lol, the exact opposite in fact.

>>2569925
Its the same russian pseud shitting up threads recently

>how do we lie to the public?
meanwhile, marx says this:
<It is high time that Communists should openly, in the face of the whole world, publish their views, their aims, their tendencies, and meet this nursery tale of the Spectre of Communism with a manifesto of the party itself.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm

Seems like a terrible idea because once they find out its just communism your opponents will say "Well if it's so great then why did they have to lie about it?"

>>2570188
>>2570187
>>2569931
Not one counterargument or example of serious progress made by western leftists towards their purported goals. Odd!

>>2570309
You didn't make an argument in the first place. Analogies aren't arguments.

>>2569932
what is the method of change?

>>2570327
Kek

>>2568486
The lack of nuance is pretty grating here. I'll 'defend' NK in the sense that I'll expound upon the fact that the US carpet bombed them to shit and i'll be honest about their history; that doesn't mean I agree with their monarchical nightmare system and outdated planning techniques.

>>2568580 bad idea; not because it's bad for bringing people in but because it's bad for attracting dedicated and anti-revisionist membership. You absolutely do not want a party full of pseudocommunists who are going to protect the petit bourgeoisie or backtrack on key points.

>>2568668
lying to people doesn't work and the kinds of people you want in your party are the kinds of people who don't take kindly to dishonesty and treating their attention like a commodity.

>>2570374
>outdated planning techniques.
They are doing well, unlike Cuba.

>>2570396
They also have a land border with two friendly nations instead of being completely in the backyard of the most anti-communist nation in the world. Wake me up when someone outside the Kim family is "elected" general secretary.

>>2570339
"most communists are not taking any practical actions to bring communism any closer, they spend all their time posturing about ideas and vibes instead (like a religion or fandom), which is (to OP's point) why they prefer complicated and outright ambiguous language to simple language" is an argument, not an analogy. the analogy exists to hammer home the argument.

>>2570360
i am happy to be open ended, i want to be positively surprised. the chances someone says "i organize irl" as a counterargument are already minuscule, even before you start pulling apart their organization and realizing they're in a newspaper cult that puts out pompous statements of demands despite having 15 members and no serious plans to add more because it would upset the dynamic of their social club.

>>2568420
vanguard (of the working class) -> forefront, thought leaders, natural leaders

disambiguate private/personal property into personal property (things you own and use) and socially productive property (things that produce goods or services for the market)

organize (as an imperative) -> find out how you can support local socialists/communists/anarchists/people-feeding-the-hungry

organize (as an answer to "how can you make this happen?") -> connect with likeminded people, educate others, defend and support the vulnerable and poor in our communities, fight fascism, win the people's trust, govern by putting the working class's needs first, step by step transition to socialism

mass line -> solicit complaints and get to the root of problems

proletariat -> working people

bourgeoisie -> the super-rich

contradiction -> (depending on context) disagreement, paradox, apparent contradiction, antagonism, struggle, zero-sum game

exploitation (of surplus value/labor) -> just stop complaining about this tbh it's a moot point because SV extraction has to happen under any social system that involves social production rather than individual production. Complain instead about how we are the consumers AND the ones making everything yet our class has ZERO say in the decisions about production (for OUR consumption) and investment (in OUR jobs and for OUR future use).

revolution -> (depending on context) overthrowing fascism, defending vulnerable people, transition to socialism, a government that actually represents working people who are the majority

fascism -> authoritarianism, tyranny, terrorist government, chaos and lynch mob violence

also dispel the idea of socialism = "no money" via labor vouchers and the concept of a step by step transition to socialism

worker ownership of the means of production -> working people in charge of big businesses, nationalization

>just go back to pre-scientific socialism, let's mistify Marxism even more, let's just confuse the everliving shit out of everybody instead of just taking the Communist Programme and its language - this will SURELY help the movement
are you all retarded? genuinely asking?

>>2570944
There's so much aggregated crap, wrongheadedness, disastrous failure, backwards-looking cultishness, and go-nowhere definition debates that it's easy to answer your strawman question with: yes.

There is no movement. There are barely movements capable of building the groundwork for a movement. There are millions of good people who basically vibe with the idea of socialism/communism, which is when the world isn't as shit as the status quo, and there are hundreds of thousands of stupid idiots (many on this website) who are very arrogant because they've got ideas and words floating about in their do-nothing heads. Knowing that the dictatorship of the proletariat is a special snowflake meaning of dictatorship different to the dictatorship of Saddam Hussein (wait, no, critical support for him against US imperialism!) or whatever does nothing to bring communism any closer.

Point me to a real movement that abolishes the present state of things. $80 if you pick something other than a foreign government which conveniently lets you outsource your ideological battles like they're the manufacture of cheap cutlery.