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Why do people use the industrialization and subsequent rise of the standard of living in Russia and China as proof of the success of socialism when neither countries were and are socialist. Socialism being defined as worker ownership of the means of production, as Marx defined, as opposed to state ownership and in the case of modern China with large parts of the economy privately owned. The success for these two countries is a testament to there size, abundance of resources and people. Germany was afraid of pre-revoultionary Russia and predicted by 1917 they would be no match for its growing might. China before the Second Sino-Japanese war was a lot more industrialized than people usually give it credit for, with most of its industrial base being destroyed by the war. And too give examples of two capitalist countries that being the United States and Germany. Both of them were able to surpass the United Kingdom due there larger access to resources and people. And not to mention the increased development of technology allowing industrializeing nations to catch up faster to their established piers. What allowed these countries to industrialize in the first place is a stable government and there ability to fight off foreign threats, which was not the case for Imperial Russia, Qing China and the ROC.

>Socialism being defined as worker ownership of the means of production, as Marx defined, as opposed to state ownership and in the case of modern China with large parts of the economy privately owned.
Sauce?
<inb4 wikipedia

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>>2576288
>Why do people use the industrialization and subsequent rise of the standard of living in Russia and China as proof of the success of socialism when neither countries were and are socialist.
Cause they are LIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIBS. There are people who fetishize losers, yeah. But there are also people who fetishize winners, independently of analysis.

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>>2576288
Just read a book called "Privatizing Russia" by a bunch of neoliberals in the 90s, that claims Stalin's industrialization was a success because of "slave labor". No citation in the book of course.

>>2576609
>Muh inefficiency because no le property rights
Why are you reading that garbage?

>socialism is when industry

>>2576615
I wanted to read what neoliberals were saying early into Russia's privatization. A lot of pure ideological garbage. Neoliberalism is pure brain rot.

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>>2576332
Saudi Arabia does human trafficking and uses slave labor in their mega projects, plus uses women as sex slaves to do scat porn.
Imperial Japan killed 30 million people in WW2 and did human experimentation.

>>2576288
>as opposed to state ownership
literally described as first stage "transition" socialism by marxist thinkers if your state is a worker state/dotp
go read some more

>>2576306
>>2576739
>socialism is the transition stage
Your confusing later marxist thinkers with marx. And that's even ahistorical when it comes to russia as lenin had to back petal a lot of he wrote in 'State and Revolution'.

Socialism is flexible like that.
Factory towninism state capitalism during the 20th century and ai workers democracy in the 21st century.

>>2576288
>Why do people use the industrialization and subsequent rise of the standard of living in Russia and China as proof of the success of socialism when neither countries were and are socialist.
Well they're not really wrong if you define the success that socialism accomplished here was industrial transformation in backwards countries. You can say that at least. Or that this was the historical "task" that socialism achieved and then it did that and it died out.

>neither countries were and are socialist.
Stopped reading here

>>2577498
So no sauce then?

>>2577660
You didn't watch the video. According to Marx communism is stateless, classless, moneyless society. Also Marx made no distinction between socialism or communism. There for socialism according to Marx is a stateless, classless, moneyless society.

>>2576288

>worker ownership of the means of production

both the USSR and PRC could be seen as mixed economies where certain sectors and industries do have this anon. Artels/Kolkhozs in the USSR and SWRCs/the new employee assemblies in the PRC come immediately to mind. Even just a little bit of socialism and economic planning resulted in much faster growth(compare the PRC and India for example) that didn't even require the huge amount of primitive accumulation,chattel slavery and general pillage that industrial capitalism in England,Germany and the US required.

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>>2577827
no. in critique of the gotha program, marx distinguishes between a lower stage of communism and a higher of communism. the lower stage of communism being "a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat." later thinkers like lenin does refer to the lower stage of communism as socialism for shorthand, but it does not change the theoretical content of marx. according to marx, this lower stage will also have the birthmarks of the old society, meaning it will still bear the remnants of capitalism. this is why it's considered a transitional stage and not a new mode of production as this transitional stage does not instantly eliminate capitalist relations. this is because "the distribution of goods still carries the birthmarks of the old society," which refers to the fact that scarcity still exists, labor is still measured and rewarded according to contribution, and class relations are not yet completely eliminated. in fact, in gundrisse, he also observes that elements of the bourgeois mode of production can be partially retained as long as they serve to accelerate the growth of productive forces.

further, in gundrise and the communist manifesto, he talks about how during the transition stage, the dotp "centralize the instruments of production in the hands of the state." across his works, this means bringing major production and infrastructure under the control of the state that is headed by a dotp, not necessarily that the totality of everything is nationalized. the state then explicity aims to "increase the total of productive forces as rapidly as possible." this is because it is central to marx's theory of historical materialism. neither japan or saudi arabia, for instance, declare themselves as having a dotp or aims to advance the productive forces in order to realize the horizons of communism, while the ussr and china does. remember, in preface to a contribution to the critique of the political economy, marx says: "In the social production of their life, men enter into definite relations that are indispensable and independent of their will, relations of production which correspond to a definite stage of development of their material productive forces." once productive forces are advanced enough and provides the material basis for post scarcity, the state will eventually wither into a stateless, classless, moneyless society, which is no longer socialism, a transitionary stage, but full on communism and a new mode of production. again, in the theory of historical materialism, as the productive forces advances, it changes the relations of production, and with it the whole relations of society. and now this is my analysis: mature forms of socialism and the horizons of communism would only be possible to emerge somewhere in the 5th-6h industrial revolution, where autonomous ai replaces human labor and becomes the central productive forces. as advanced ai systems become capable of automating cognitive, physical, and logistical labor, this severs the constitutive link between labor and value. it disrupts the circuit of capital: M — C — P — C' — M' (Money — Commodity — Production — Commodity — Money). if labor is no longer central to production, then profit becomes harder to extract, and capitalism’s internal engine begins to sputter. advance ai automation, powered by abundant renewable energy and nuclear fusion, invalidates the foundations of capitalism and its remnants. the lack of need for wage labor destroys the foundation of surplus value extraction. the lack of meaningful scarcity undermine markets, prices, and profit motive. central planning and coordination can be done intelligently, flexibly, through predictive logistics and self-optimizing supply chains that erode the rationale for market allocation. marx in fragments on machines, "As soon as labour in the direct form has ceased to be the great well-sring of wealth, labour time ceases and must cease to be its measure, and hence exchange value must cease to be the measure of use value."

>>2577979
We are so far in front of Marx's time, communism is already possible. We do not need a period of state control and rapid technological development and concentration.

The industrialization project of the Soviet Union from the 30s to the 60s, centralized planning, late stage nation building in essence, inspired many poorer countries. Does not matter if socialistic, capitalistic, left or right wing.

>>2576288
typical ultra nonsense. communism isnt

< …worker ownership of the means of production, as Marx defined, as opposed to state ownership and in the case of modern China with large parts of the economy privately owned.


communism is the class dictatorship of the proletariat, where the means of production are collectively owned, a democratically elected series of workers councils being one such method of managing the collectively owned means of production.

your counterposing 'worker owned' and 'state owned' is charitably anarchist, uncharitably libertarian ancap, brainworms. the workers own the means of production through the mechanism of a proletarian government that is democratically elected, not ad hoc or individually, and this is what was the case in the USSR and is the case in China.

>>2579016
it does matter because it would have happen regardless if Russia was "communist" run or capitalist run as long there was a stable government and the means to protect against foreign capital

>>2578315
Oh okay, I wonder why Cuba, for instance, doesn't just hit the communist button. I mean it's that simple and easy and we're 'in front of Marx's time.' They have higher tech than the time of late 19th century Britain. No, that's not how it works. It's productive forces that drives changes to relations of production out of neccessity, not mental. Western countries aren't even in the socialist stage yet. And both Marx and Engels says going from the lower phase to the higher phase will be slow and gradual. Engels suggest it would take a long epoch. The state fades slowly because it becomes irrelevent.

>>2579490
>It's productive forces that drives changes to relations of production out of neccessity

Cool what new tech do we need to bring about socialism? AI? Fusion? And explain why this is different than previous predictions that electricity, nuclear power, and computers would bring about socialism.

>>2580513
I already explained it here >>2577979
Let's talk more about historical materialism though and analyze in Marxism terms.

In Preface to A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy, Marx says:
"In the social production of their life, men enter into definite relations that are indispensable and independent of their will, relations of production which correspond to a definite stage of development of their material productive forces."

Marx is saying that the structure of society emerges in accordance with the level of development of its productive forces, particularly its tools and technology.

In the earliest human societies, people lived in small groups where everything was shared and there was no private property. These communities were mostly egalitarian because their tools and technology were very basic. They hunted, gathered, and later farmed in simple ways. Since they couldn't produce much extra beyond what they needed to survive, there wasn’t room for wealth or class differences to develop. Studies today show that contemporary indigenous hunter gather tribes, who use very basic tools are quite egalitarian.

Marx also talks about how as the forces of production advances, it drives changes to the relations of production:

“At a certain stage of development, the material productive forces of society come into conflict with the existing relations of production… From forms of development of the productive forces these relations turn into their fetters. Then begins an era of social revolution.” – Marx

"No social order ever perishes before all the productive forces for which there is room in it have developed; and new, higher relations of production never appear before the material conditions of their existence have matured in the womb of the old society itself. " – Marx

Once the material productive forces advances or outgrow beyond what the existing relations of production can accommodate, a contradiction arises. The relations of production, which once facilitated the development of the productive forces, begin to act as constraint (what Marx calls "fetters") on further progress. This contradiction gives rise to a transitional period marked by social revolution. In this period, class conflict intensifies and ultimately leads to the overthrow of the existing social order. A new set of relations of production then emerge, ones that are better suited to the level of development of the productive forces.

For instance, the Agricultural Revolution marks a critical turning point in human history. It represented a leap in the the productive forces where agriculture, domestication of animals, irrigation systems, and improved tool led to a significant increase in food surplus. Settlements grew, and with them, social hierarchies and more complex economies developed, including allowing some individuals to specialize in activities other than food production, initiating a division of labor.

With the emergence of surplus came the concept of private property and systems of inheritance, which laid the foundation for the first class divisions. Those who controlled land, tools, or surplus resources began to hold power over others. Over time, these material inequalities became institutionalized in social structures. The need to protect property and manage growing, more complex societies gave rise to centralized authority which manifests in the formation of city-states, organized religion, standing armies, and hierarchical rule by kings and priests. But once again, the development of the productive forces eventually necessitates a transformation of the social and economic relations meaning the relations of production. This in turns create a new superstructure.

Feudalism eventually took over as the dominant system where most most people were peasants (or serfs) who worked the land for a landlord in exchange for protection and a place to live. The economy was based on tradition, agriculture, and rigid class hierarchy. You were basically born into your role and stuck there.

But over time, things started to change again. New tools, better farming methods, growing trade routes, and the rise of towns made the old feudal structure less efficient. A new class, the bourgeoisie, emerged: merchants, artisans, and early capitalists who weren’t tied to land but made their wealth through trade and production. As their economic power grew, they started challenging the feudal lords for political and social control. Eventually, feudalism couldn’t contain the new economic realities. Social revolutions took place and capitalism started to take over.

In the era of the capitalist mode of production, Marx talks about how

"The bourgeoisie cannot exist without constantly revolutionizing the instruments of production, and thereby the relations of production, and with them the whole relations of society." (The Communist Manifesto)

In this new relations of production, the bourgeoisie, in their drive for profit and competition, rapidly innovates the productive forces and breaks up old stagnating systems, like feudalism, and pushes humanity forward technologically and economically. Marx then surmise that socialism will emerge from western countries with advance productive forces:

"The bourgeois mode of production is the last antagonistic form of the social process of production but the productive forces developing within bourgeois society create also the material conditions for a solution of this antagonism."' The bourgeoisie becomes their own gravedigger.

Now, here's the thing. Marx was just saying he was uncovering the scientific laws of historical materialism. Even if Marx didn't exist, the the laws of historical materialism and stages of society should still exist. Historical materialism is not dependent on Marx’s existence, just like evolution didn’t need Darwin to happen. However, because Marx wrote in depth about the theory of historical materialism, he gave socialism and political groups a coherent language, strategic clarity and and self-awareness of historical positioning. Without him, instead of "scientific socialism," you’d have moralistic socialism ("let’s be fair"), religious socialism (Christian egalitarianism), and so on. But by writing it down, he also made it possible for political groups to act ahead of their maturity, sometimes at great cost, but with the aim of catching up over time.

This is how the PRC and the USSR had inverted Marx's sequence to find themselves on the other side of the dialectical coin. The major contradiction in 1949 for China was that the base was weak and the superstructure was revolutionary. Thus the logic became: once the productive forces are mature, the already-established Marxist-Leninist state can guide society peacefully toward mature socialism, and eventually communism. As a result, the USSR and China had to catch up technologically and industrially to the capitalist West before they could even begin to approximate the conditions that Marx saw as necessary for socialism. Neither Mao or Lenin believed their countries had achieved communism in their life time, but they were still in the transitional stage of socialism.

Since Western capitalist countries still have not had their socialist revolution, it's clear that the productive forces still aren't advance enough. It is not driving a strong enough contradiction to necessitate a social revolutionary to transform the relations of production. However, you can probably get that with mass joblessness driven by the rise of AI. Goldman Sachs predicts that up to 50% of jobs could be fully automated by 2045, driven by generative AI and robotics. So why is this different from the tools of the first to third industrial revolutions? AI+advance automation+abundant renewable and fission energy to power the whole system, represents a qualitative leap in the forces of production to qualitatively transform the relations of production. That's because it's not merely just the efficient tools of the 1st to 3rd industrial revolution that enhanced human labor, it's an entire new way of producing value because it replaces human labor. Trying to fit this level of productive power into capitalism is like pouring molten metal into a wooden mold, it breaks the form. As I said previously, it severs the constitutive link between labor and value by disrupting the circuit of capital: M — C — P — C' — M' (Money — Commodity — Production — Commodity — Money). If labor is no longer central to production, then profit becomes harder to extract, and capitalism’s internal engine begins to sputter. The lack of need for wage labor destroys the foundation of surplus value extraction. The lack of meaningful scarcity undermine markets, prices, and profit motive. Central planning and coordination can be done intelligently, flexibly, through predictive logistics and self-optimizing supply chains that erode the rationale for market allocation. This is why in China's five year plans, the development of new quality productive forces has high priority. Xi Jinping has also said, "To develop new quality productive forces, it is imperative to deepen reform across the board as to create a new type of relations of production that is compatible with the development of new quality productive forces." When the new quality productive forces are fully "ripe", China’s ML state structure, built on the foundations of the original revolution, gives China a unique position to transition peacefully and strategically to a mature socialism and the horizon of communism. Meanwhile, mass unemployment in the USA will likely be far more destabilizing, contested, and even violent. It will likely take a much longer time, compared to China, to synthesize the forces of production and relations of production. Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezo will fortify their compounds, militarize the police, and desperately cling on to maintain the decaying neoliberal order, in the midst of intensifying culture wars and social unrest.

>>2577979
You didn't watch the video did you? And China has still has capital accumulation hell the soviets didn't need to do that, at least under stalin. And neither countries were and are 'proletariat' run, they are party run by the top of the party.

>>2580619

China will run into the same troubles as the US with unemployment and overproduction

I cannot see the CCP giving up state power

>>2580759
I've already watched it years ago, and he's wrong on so many points. He completely misrepresents Marx and completely misreads the Paris Commune. Also, I already told you that Marx distinguishes a lower phase and a higher phase. Only the final phase is stateless.

>>2580888
>he's wrong on so many points. He completely misrepresents Marx and completely misreads the Paris Commune.
how so?
>Also, I already told you that Marx distinguishes a lower phase and a higher phase.
Hes says this in the video.
>Only the final phase is stateless.
its not the initial phase is also stateless, only under the dictatorship of the proletariat does the state exist.

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>>2580871
that's in the higher phase of communism. we're a long ways from that. that's when the state withers away because it becomes irrelevant. the lower phase is about the ego mediating the id. china can do that. meanwhile, video is an american realizing capitalist states have no ego, only id.


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