/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>2617792
>What does Critique of the Gotha Programme have to do with China?
because the vulgar marxists are lassalleans who see deductions from the wage in the chinese economy as the same as capitalist exploitation when really it's just socialism in practice.

>>2617792
>To further balance the relationship between the government and the market we need to decide which of the two is to play the decisive role in allocating resources. To boost the economy we must enhance the efficiency of the allocation of resources, especially that of scarce resources, so that we can use fewer resources to make more products and gain more benefits. Both theory and practice have proved that the allocation of resources by the market is the most effective means to this end. It is a general rule of the market economy that the market decides the allocation of resources, and a market economy in essence is one in which the market determines resource allocation. We have to follow this rule when we improve the socialist market economy. We should work harder to address the problems of market imperfection, too much government interference and lack of oversight. Positioning the market as playing a “decisive role” in resource allocation is conducive to establishing the correct notion of the government-market relationship…
Holy cow, that's one hell of a quote…

>>2617792
>I think any Marxist should be able to recognize this outlook for what it is.
What we have to deal with here is a communist society, not as it has developed on its own foundations, but, on the contrary, just as it emerges from capitalist society; which is thus in every respect, economically, morally, and intellectually, still stamped with the birthmarks of the old society from whose womb it emerges. Accordingly, the individual producer receives back from society – after the deductions have been made – exactly what he gives to it.

>>2618750
What do you mean by this?

>>2618753
Those are Marx's words from Gothakritik. State Capital exists after proletarian revolution. So does reform. So does class. Marxists have always admitted this. Marx says that the proletariat, once it has won political supremacy, wrests "by degrees" (i.e. gradually) all "capital" from the bourgeoisie. And they do this initially only at a national scale rather than an international one, hence why they confiscate the property of "rebels and emigres" who inevitably flee to remaining capitalist countries. Marx says the proletariat after it has won power should force people to work "equal liability of all to work" and should establish a "national bank" with "state capital." Are you seeing where I am going with this? Engels says the proletarian revolution will not be able to abolish private property overnight, but will probably do so gradually. Lenin says State Capitalism is a prerequisite for socialism several times, and only blockheads don't understand that.

Marx, Engels, Lenin, they all were "dengists!"

The SOE thing has always been goofy to me. Would you consider your local public utility to be run by the proletariat? Is the post office some sort of coop?

>>2618769
it's about class dictatorship
SOE under capitalism = bourgeois state owned enterprise

SOE under socialism = proletarian state owned enterprise

inb4
>proletarian state?! how dare you!

read Lenin

>>2618768
>To boost the economy we must enhance the efficiency of the allocation of resources, especially that of scarce resources, so that we can use fewer resources to make more products and gain more benefits. Both theory and practice have proved that the allocation of resources by the market is the most effective means to this end. It is a general rule of the market economy that the market decides the allocation of resources, and a market economy in essence is one in which the market determines resource allocation. We have to follow this rule when we improve the socialist market economy. We should work harder to address the problems of market imperfection, too much government interference and lack of oversight.
Does not sound like a gradual transition away from markets, but instead an embrace of them as a permanent solution.

>>2618770
What makes a state proletarian anyway? It seems very abstract to me.

>>2618776
You seem very abstract for me.

>>2618770
How is a Chinese SOE run differently from government owned entities all over the world?

>>2618794
>How is a Chinese SOE run differently from government owned entities all over the world?
because it's run by a government with a Communist party in power.

>>2618734
Still, you defy Deng Xiaoping Theory. You are wrong because the entirety of China's economy is Communist. Independent proletarian enterprises are just as Communist as SOE. The Communist Party does not need to micromanage every social product. Despite your confusion, that post has already been utterly debunked. >>2618449
>>2618749
This quote is 100 percent wrong because they implicate that the perfect Communist market system is itself a problem, as if the Communist Party directly distributing every single social product would be less "imperfect." Such defiance of the Communist market is Trotskyite nonsense as Mao explained >>2618486
>>2618773
You never say single reason why the Communist market system is so bad, despite the fact it eradicated poverty. To all of reasonable mind who adhere to Communism, you seem to think Commumism is marketless poverty. Communism without markets is poverty. Please explicate why you think the Communist market system is so bad when you have been given so many corrections.
>>2618769
Correct. The ultra obsession over SOE originates from their failurr to grasp the necessity and Communist nature of private proletarian enterprise. Private proletarian enterprise is no less Communist than SOE.
>>2618794
>>2618850
You ask the wrong question. You ask "How are China's SOE Communist?"
You should ask, "Why is China Communist?"

China is Communist not because of SOE, but because the socialist transformation of private ownership of the means of production has been completed, the system of exploitation of man by man abolished, and a socialist system established. The exploiting class, as a class, has been eliminated.

China also is the central producer to the products of capitalist countries and businesses.

>>2618948
>>2618953
It's amazing how you're able to say so little in so many words. Despite what you seem to think, angrily asserting the same thing repeatedly does not a convincing argument make. You need to actually justify your positions if you want anyone to take you seriously.

>>2618850
Thoughts on Belarus?

>>2618955
You are lobophobia is typical for proponent of bourgeois ideoglogy. We use Shanghai Textbook to correct these anti-Communists that are the most vocal against Communism. Your Confucian demand to convince and not correct these agents of revisionism, when perfection of the Communist product exchange system is so evidenced, is futile. Study Shanghai Textbook chapters 15, 19, and 21 and report back with your answers to the review problems.

>>2618773
>Does not sound like a gradual transition away from markets, but instead an embrace of them as a permanent solution.
Where are you getting the permanence. It says especially that of scarce resources. They are saying that the more scarce something is the more they should rely on the market to allocate it. Thats just correct. As things become more abundant the market becomes less important. Its good to use the market to distribute scarce resources as long as the state puts up minimal guardrails to ensure they are incentived towards increasing production

right after that quote

>Our market economy is socialist, of course. We need to give leverage to the superiority of our socialist system, and let the Party and government perform their positive functions. The market plays a decisive role in allocating resources, but is not the sole actor in this regard

>To develop the socialist market economy, leverage should be given to both the market and the government, with differentiated functions. The Decision put forth clear requirements for improving the functions of the government, emphasizing that scientific macro control and effective governance are the intrinsic requirements for giving more leverage to the advantages of the socialist market economy. The Decision also makes plans for improving macro control, correctly performing government functions in all areas, and improving the organization of government. It stresses that the main responsibility and role of the government is to maintain the stability of the macro economy, strengthen and improve public services, ensure fair competition, strengthen market oversight, maintain market order, promote sustainable development and common prosperity, and intervene in situations where market failure occurs

>Second, adhering to and improving the basic economic system. The basic economic system with public ownership playing a leading role and all forms of ownership growing side by side is an important pillar of the socialist system with Chinese characteristics.

>Second, adhering to and improving the basic economic system. The basic economic system with public ownership playing a leading role and all forms of ownership growing side by side is an important pillar of the socialisSince the introduction of the reform and opening-up policy in 1978 the structure of ownership has undergone gradual adjustment, with the weights of the public and non-public sectors changing in their contribution to the economy and employment. The economy and society have grown more vigorous during this process. In such conditions, how to better recognize the leading role of public ownership and stick to this position and how to further explore the effective forms for materializing the basic economic system have become major topics for us.

>It is emphasized in the Decision that we must unswervingly consolidate and develop the public economy, persist in the leading role of public ownership, give full play to the leading role of the state-owned economy, and incessantly increase its vitality, leveraging power and impact.

>Adhering to and furthering the relevant deliberations made since the Party’s 15th National Congress, the Decision proposes to vigorously develop the mixed- ownership economy. It stresses that such an economy, with cross-shareholding by and integration of state-owned capital, collective capital and non-public capital, is important to materialize the basic economic system of China. It will help to improve the functions of state-owned capital, maintain and increase its value and raise its competitiveness. It is an effective channel and inevitable choice for us to adhere to the leading role of public ownership and improve the vitality, leveraging power and impact of the state-owned economy in the new conditions.

>The Decision states that China will improve the state assets management system, strengthen state assets oversight with capital management at the core, and reform the authorized operation mechanism for state capital. State-owned capital investment operations must serve the strategic goals of the state, invest more in key industries and areas that are vital to national security and are the lifeblood of the economy, focus on offering public services, develop important and future-oriented strategic industries, protect the ecological environment, support scientific and technological progress, and guarantee national security. The government will transfer part of the state-owned capital to social security funds. We will increase the proportion of state-owned capital gains that are turned over to the public finance, to be used to ensure and improve the people’s livelihood.t system with Chinese characteristics.

>>2618958
Basic ass european country

>>2619248
nah they're post-soviet and have the only soviet era leader left. they also haven't abandoned social democracy yet, and their social democracy was never based in NATO imperialism. they're a non-NATO member.

There is no reason to convince dengits they are wrong. It will be more pleasurable to watch them looking the inevitable rot of China completely clueless of what happens.

>>2620588
you will die of natural causes first at this rate

>>2620120
>no cow content
6/10.

>>2617792
good analysis anon

>>2581462
Insiders who are privy to information position themselves with high-leverage right before a market close in order to maximally benefit from their insider information when the market opens the next day; all while minimizing exposure to intraday volatility.

TLDR: Insider trading, basically.

china COCK exchange

>>2663209
>>2581462
>the rulling class organizes the economy by investing strategically with the best information available
West socialist confirmed

>>2617792
>>2617792
>People in China usually work for bosses who own the means of production and who sell what the workers produce for profit. Markets don't just cover a few steps of the production process, there isn't just a market for consumer goods, but also for the means of production and raw materials ("allowing the market to play the decisive role in allocating resources" - Xi Jinping, Governance of China). The split between work for immediate consumption and building up means of production is not set in a plan, but by market processes. The government has some rough ideas about how the split should look like and nudges the market decisions with taxes and subsidies. I guess it isn't real capitalism from the perspective of an "anarcho-capitalist", but that form of capitalism does not and cannot exist anywhere.
100% wrong. The proletariat sells what China produces. The proletariat cannot exploit itself. China's means of production are not for sale. Proletarian managers manage the means of production. The Communist market economy is dictated by plan.
>"To further balance the relationship between the government and the market we need to decide which of the two is to play the decisive role in allocating resources. To boost the economy we must enhance the efficiency of the allocation of resources, especially that of scarce resources, so that we can use fewer resources to make more products and gain more benefits. Both theory and practice have proved that the allocation of resources by the market is the most effective means to this end. It is a general rule of the market economy that the market decides the allocation of resources, and a market economy in essence is one in which the market determines resource allocation. We have to follow this rule when we improve the socialist market economy. We should work harder to address the problems of market imperfection, too much government interference and lack of oversight. Positioning the market as playing a “decisive role” in resource allocation is conducive to establishing the correct notion of the government-market relationship…" - Xi Jinping, The Governance of China. I think any Marxist should be able to recognize this outlook for what it is.
Xi Jinping has stated the scientific Communist outlook of the material laws of the Communist market system.
>How about gradually moving, but in the opposite direction?"Over the past two decades or so we have advanced economic and other reforms centering on the goal of establishing a socialist market economy, and realized a great historic transition from a highly centralized planned economy to a robust socialist market economy…" - Xi Jinping, Governance of China. Countless times there is the mantra about the market having the "decisive role" (a right-wing shift from "basic role"). I haven't read TGoC part 2 yet and heard it's better, but that's some bleak shit. I did read the rest of that letter by Engels and it ends with Engels expecting quick collectivizing of big industry after gaining political power.
The Communist market is the most advanced socialized production. Modern Communist market has superceded the lower stages, therefore return to ancient central planning is reactionary.
>*Glancing over the rest of the quotes*What does Critique of the Gotha Programme have to do with China? You believe a capitalist speculating on the Chinese stock market gets a return in proportion to his labor hours? Have you actually read those texts or this is just some copypasta?
There are no capitalists in Communist China. The socialist transformation of private ownership of the means of production has been completed, the system of exploitation of man by man abolished, and a socialist system established. The exploiting class, as a class, has been eliminated. Surplus-value is abolished. Stocks bought in Communist stock markets are not capital that provides return, but a representation of socialized claim on a portion of the expanded social product.

>China's means of production are not for sale.
Wrong!

>>2663291
Means of production means China's means of producing means of production

Because stocks are controlled by party and are subject to national planning targets?

/END OF DISCUSSION.
Fuck you retards. If you disagree you are neither a communist or a marxist.

>>2663590
>stocks are subject to planning
retarded if true

>>2663294
This robot have been made by a robot and can produce more robots.

>>2663590
Show me where Marx or Lenin said anything about socialists billionaires trading in the communist stock exchange to turn money onto more money.

>>2664329
There are no billionaires in Communist China. "Billionaire" is social relation specific to imperialism that is abolished in China. China's proletarian managers of vast means of production earn wages that are planned in accordance with principle material laws of socialism production. Communist stock markets exist to allow proletarians to consciously allocate their own net social product into expansion and refinement of Communism's productive forces in exchange for socialized claim on a portion of the expanded social product. Expanded Communist reproduction in China uses the socialized surplus product, consciously allocated by the proletariat through planned mechanisms in accordance with the primary material law of Communism, to expand and refine the material basis of Communism itself without exploitation.

>>2663590
How can I become a party capitalist then? I wanna sign up.

>>2664374
>"Billionaire" is social relation specific to imperialism that is abolished in China.
Nah I'm pretty sure it is a number. 10^9. So that ammount but for money/dollars.

>>2664436
You have committed vulgar mistake of considering assets managed by proletarian managers and entrepreneurs as owned by capitalists as in capitalism. Independent proletarian entrepreneurial and proletarian managerial assets are dispensed by proletariat in accordance with primary material law of socialism planned and proportional, rational development.

yes, China is capitalist

>>2664436
Billionaires are technically general contractors to socialism in China. They exist, they're kept under a tight leash, Jack Ma was orders of magnitude better than Elon Musk, but still got slapped down.

>>2668657
Lassale won
SPD won
Deng won
Mensheviks won
Trotsky won

>>2668660
ok jewish nigger

umm sweatie it's the people's stock market

>>2668757
i mean you do kinda have to make the infrastructure for foreign capitalists to invest or you dont have the foundation for them to give you their patents

>>2670043
> In China, workers use Communist Stock market to exploit foreign capitalists.
thats what i said lol

>>2668657
Wrong. In China, workers use Communist Stock market to exploit foreign capitalists. Communist Stock Market serves Communism without regard to law of surplus-value, as sanctified by Article 1 of Securities Law of the People's Republic of China, because the law of surplus-value is abolished in China.
>Article 1 This Law is enacted in order to standardize the issuance and transaction of securities, protect the legitimate rights and interests of investors, maintain the socioeconomic order and public interests of society and promote the development of the socialist market economy. 
Communist security law differentiates bourgeois investors from proletarian investors, upholding domination of proletarian investors over foreign bourgeois investors.
>Article 89 Investors may be divided into ordinary investors and professional investors on the basis of their asset status, financial assets, investment knowledge and experiences and professional capacity. The criteria for professional investors shall be specified by the securities regulatory authority under the State Council. Where an ordinary investor has a dispute with a securities company, the securities company shall prove that it has acted in compliance with the laws, administrative regulations and the regulations of securities regulatory authority under the State Council and has in no circumstances misled or cheated the investor. Where the securities company is unable to prove the above, it shall bear the corresponding compensatory liability.