/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>2581197
isn't worker's rights the whole point of socialism

>>2581205
The whole point of socialism is the abolition of the working class

>>2581206
you meant the elite capital-holding class whose only labor is allocating resources

>>2581216
no both of them. The workers are also a class created by capitalism

>fascist
>nationalist
>opposes class conflict
>dubious non-racism, to put it lightly
hope that answers your question

>>2581138
Fascism and Leninism is the same thing minus the materialism

The falange consisted almost entirely of the middle class. Fascism is just aestheticism with a few uyghling treats for the working classes.

the falangists were syndicalists, they were/were buddy with CNT-FAI, fascism roots from syndicalism, cercle proudhon and most of 19th and 20th century anarchists and utopian socialists with exception of scientific marxists
>>2581294
the materialist outlook or scientific socialism is inherently antifascist

>>2581313

/thread

>>2581313
absolutely truke

>>2581307
>The falange consisted almost entirely of the middle class

so, workers(Reactionary)

Die

>>2581205
>>2581205
>isn't worker's rights the whole point of socialism
FFS, read a fucking book, any book.

>>2581313
The Falange were a group of rich kids yeah. Jose Antonio was a rather squeamish guy too, son of a former authoritarian conservative dictator.

IIRC Jose Antonio actually read Marx and came to the conclusion that Marx was right about Capitalism inevitably collapsing but saw Falangism as a kind of pause to prevent it.

'Course it was all over the place historically. Jose Antonio wasn't even wholly in control of his own party, with more "working class" elements that would fall behind figures like Ramiro Ledema who was far more anti-semitic but bizarrely fond of both the USSR and Nazi Germany.

>"Long live the new world of the 20th century! Long live Fascist Italy! Long live Soviet Russia! Long live Hitler's Germany! Long live Spain, we'll do it. Down with the bourgeois and parliamentary democracies!"
<Ramiro Ledesma

Primo de Rivera would also frustrate many of his followers by appearing to be too "soft" and, allegedly, tried to advocate for some form of peace when the Spanish Civil War started.

But the important thing to remember about many of these seemingly "good" or "positive" elements of "Left-Fascism" you could call it is that Fascism is fundamentally altered by the social classes which organize within it. I think that has to be restated again and again, because it just as much applies to various "progressive" or "Left" wing parties as well. Fascism will talk a big talk about "uniting the nation" and perhaps even make concessions or common cause with some workers in the early years but it will eventually spread out to the middle classes and some elements of the upper class and take on the characteristics of those classes, it'll be pushed not by the singular will of some "leader" but by the class forces constituting it.

Oswald Mosley, at least at first, was frankly not all that anti-semitic and was "tame" by Fascist standards. Some of the early Blackshirts in the BUF funnily enough included Jews. William Joyce (later known as "Lord Haw-Haw" by the Brits) was instrumental in shifting the movement to primarily focus on Antisemitism. Even as he was criticized by his supposed "leader" Mosley, he would constantly agitate to the ranks about the "Jewish Problem" and caused the character of the BUF to be less about "fixing the economy with corporatism" and more about dealing with "The Jews". Even with Mosley expelling him from the Party the damage was mostly done by that point and Mosley himself had to embrace antisemitic rhetoric because his Blackshirts cared a hell of a lot more about that than his economic theories.

So presuming Jose Antonio survived and could direct "Falangism" I think his destiny would've been to be sidelined by the rest of the Nationalists, propped up as a mascot to give some "legitimacy" to the state, but never actually holding power. Failing that, the movement likely would've been contorted less in the direction of workers and more in the direction of firebrand reactionaries. Ultimately what Franco did was hollow out Falangism of anything resembling ideology when merging it with the Traditionalist Communion. Sure, some ideological Falangists survived and made some noise (going to world youth day in Cuba, I believe encouraging co-ops like the Mondragon Corporation) but the actual power of some "National Syndicalist Revolution" was completely defanged.

>>2581138
>fascists
>say thing
>must be true
Is this a fucking joke?

>>2581666
Good analysis. It's worth noting that Falangism itself is downstream from National Syndicalism, which is about as close as you could really get to a "working class" or "leftish" fascism, and even then it was always kind of an aberration in the movement which was frequently alluded to rhetorically but in practice never acted upon because proper National Syndicalism would involve a purge of most of the bourgeoisie. The remainder of course would be "rejuvenated" if Sorel is anything to go by and would redirect their productive forces to benefit the proletariat, or something like that. Of course the inherent contradiction between having a bourgeoisie take part in your movement and being ostensibly a movement of the proletariat invariably gives way to rule by the bourgeoisie, so National Syndicalism fell to the wayside in favor of reactionary traditionalism.

>>2581666
>Primo de Rivera would also frustrate many of his followers by appearing to be too "soft" and, allegedly, tried to advocate for some form of peace when the Spanish Civil War started.
Reading a big, thick history of fascism and this is true. He would even occasionally use the word "fascist" as a slur for more violent, right-wing hotheads even though his organization was the most closely modeled (on purpose) after the Italian fascists and they were subsidized by ᴉuᴉlossnW for a little while. I just got to the section on Spain though. The author, Stanley Payne, suggests that nationalism didn't have as much purchase in Spain for a variety of historical reasons compared to religion, so the dominant force on the Spanish right were neo-traditionalist Catholics and monarchists like Jose Calvo Sotelo (pic).

>Ultimately what Franco did was hollow out Falangism of anything resembling ideology when merging it with the Traditionalist Communion.
I'm reading that the Falangists did recruit several hundred thousand people during the civil war but a lot of them were killed off in the fighting so they canceled themselves out, and the remainders lived on as a puppetized group under the Franco regime. Franco brought them into that coalition but they didn't even exercise effective control over their own party.

>>2581311
this

>>2581666
TRUTH NUKE

>>2581138
They were axiomatically worse than Hitler.
Say what you will about him like the vid in >>2581674 says in Germany at the time the petit bourgeoisie and middle class were the majority of the nation.
Hitlers petit bourgeoisie Bismarck socialism no matter how much it sold out to big business and so on, still made it clear who it was for, he even named the petit bourgeoisie in speeches.
For the Falange it was the aristocracy and middle class taking full on power away from the prole and peasant majority.
>But they read Marx before Franco!
So did Hitler.
Anyone who would support the Falange might as well just support Hitler. It would be an improvement.

>>2581779
One thing when you read about how the core of the Falangists' support were "students," this is the 1930s in Spain we're talking about where that coded strongly right-wing, sons of aristocrats, etc.

Another odd thing that doesn't get brought up much is aviation. The fascists were enthralled by aviation and there were famous aviators in different countries that joined fascist parties. In the Spanish case it was Julio Ruiz de Alda Miqueleiz (later shot by anarchists).

>>2581727
There's a funny moment where the Falange gets invited to ᴉuᴉlossnW's attempted "Fascist International" but Jose Antonio reiterated that Falangism isn't Fascism. Allegedly some of the anger that came from his followers was based on him being way less willing to commit to offensive violence when they really wanted to crack skulls. I think Ledesma actually used this as a critique of him and Mosley, that they were "soft" aristocrats who were concerned with high-minded ideals whereas the more "radical" and "working class" types (closer to Lumpen imo) wanted to beat people to death.

This sort of reminds me of how you'd previously get this divide in the right where establishment politicians would vaguely gesture towards whatever brainworms their base had, but wouldn't actually believe in them. Like they'd talk about small government and maybe throw a bone to the freaks that think the government is using chemtrails to make them gay. Well there'd be flare ups of contempt in the base because these "soft" old money WASP types want to do things like tort reform whereas they want a real shit-kicker who'll bring back corporeal punishment in schools. It's like "we don't give a fuck about your gay-ass business grant scheme, we want to elect the guy that stands outside of the local mosque screaming slurs"

>>2581726
So something about "rejuvenation" of the Bourgeoisie according to Sorel, as I understand it it's less "Oh they'll be better" so much as that when actual class conflict and violence declines, the Bourgeoisie sort of fall into mindless hedonism. Look at Musk, look at Altman, look at all these billionaires. They're jerking themselves off on pie-in-the-sky ideas, they're lazy, they're self-absorbed. The "rejuvenation" of the Bourgeoisie is more or less their class necessarily having to get its shit together to survive open class war. Elon Musk can't keep shitposting while paying Chinese dudes to play Path of Exile 2 for him when there's a genuine threat of open warfare from the proletariat, and if he tries he'll get his Darwin award. This isn't just localized either, the entire Bourgeoisie as a class would get a wake up akin to how a quiet suburb might be on guard if there's a brutal murder in their neighborhood.

Its less "they'll treat the proles better" so much as they'll be forced to get their shit together or perish, they'll have to bring back open class warfare on their end as well.

>>2581756
I posted Haz mainly because I think he kind of already falls into this camp or, if not, risks falling into it more than most other "Communist" parties. Even if some leadership remains committed to Communism it really wouldn't be difficult for the membership to upend things and go full Fash.

Nothing.

>>2582240
holy based

>>2582281
spain did not recognise israel until 1986

>>2581857
>Even if some leadership remains committed to Communism it really wouldn't be difficult for the membership to upend things and go full Fash.
oh god imagine if haz becomes the american ᴉuᴉlossnW.

>>2581857
>whereas the more "radical" and "working class" types (closer to Lumpen imo) wanted to beat people to death
I can't find it online, but there's a pic of a Falangist rally in Madrid in this book that was against the USSR in 1941 at the onset of the German invasion, and the front row of guys in it was a mix of slick-looking guys (nice suits, well cut), guys with paramilitary uniforms with straps across their chests, and then some absolute zoot-suit looking gangsters.

>I posted Haz mainly because I think he kind of already falls into this camp or, if not, risks falling into it more than most other "Communist" parties.
I mean just look at the aesthetics of the pic you posted. All black outfit. This weirdly ritualized / wedding ceremony stage dressing.

People say "saying aesthetics = politics" is a fascist thing. I don't agree with that exactly. It's more that fascists took ritualized political aesthetics to an extreme, although aesthetics are a constituent part of political ideologies and to understand them requires some attention to their aesthetic dimension.

>>2581311
Absolutely correct

The Lebanese or the Spanish ones?

>>2581319
Thinks uygha thinks he is on the team 🥀

https://filosofia.org/aut/001/1939tlc.htm#p05

Go on and google translate that speech. He goes on praising Marx and largely agree with him but sees no contradiction with his own idealistic notion of the Fatherland and man which was just a mental illness due to his upper-class upbringing. Personally I think he was a hack but very smart.
Spain back then was barely out from being a feudal backwater so syndicalist and reactionary essentializing theories like anarchism were popular and with the proletariat not being as developed there wasn't that massive of a rift between the interests of the ruling class and a good chunk of the popular classes (peasants are inherently reactionary idgaf) for there to be a perceived existential threat, it was moreso to restore the natural order of things in a more integral fashion than the Italian/German futuristic aesthetics of burning everything down, though still just as radical it wasn't precisely alienating.
Falange was roots-fascism so to say closer to Sorel in many aspects with a human face like if Italian/Nazi fascism was the abstract "we're all the same race" falangism was like we're all the same family

But it was the only fascist tendency that properly mobilized workers instead of useless petty-bourg so it's worth taking into account. Like I unironically believe it had tangential influence on the political development of Castro due to the large spanish community in Cuba at the time (himself being part of) and it is a statement for the power of the Fatherland as a mobilizing force, Patria o Muerte itself sounds incredibly falangist

>>2586081
This uygha didn't read Marx yet.

>>2586292
>But it was the only fascist tendency that properly mobilized workers instead of useless petty-bourg so it's worth taking into account.
I don't think it ever did? Like there's whatever this aristocrat said he was doing and then there was the actual history of how this played out.

>>2586295
this uygha hasn't read the principles of communism oh no no no

Also thread is saged now but the Falange was unusually non-proletarian even by the standards of other fascist parties (that were fairly middle class usually anyways). Like they were very heavily not that.

Weirdly and disturbingly, the Legion of the Archangel Michael in Romania probably was the strongest fascist group ever in recruiting blue-collar workers and those guys were so psychotic a conservative-authoritarian government shot the whole leadership and dumped their bodies in a lime pit.

>>2586794
True. And the Arrow Cross in Hungary also successfully rivaled the Social Democrat Party for working class support before being banned by Horthy