Ever since the retirement of Fidel Castro in 2006 ever self-described communist country (all five of them) has been a market-socialist economy. China and Vietnam seem to have taken a liking to it, North Korea seems to be indifferent, I don’t know anything about Laos, and Cuba seems to be reluctant to it. Is only supposed to be temporary for until the communist movement gets back on its feet or are we stuck with Labubus and billboards forever?
>>2614940Its a necessary stage in the path towards a planned economy.
>>2614940Quite possible, yes.
It's called social democracy with keynesian characteristics
It's the future of the liberal movement
>>2614945Illiterate racist retard
>What we have to deal with here is a communist society, not as it has developed on its own foundations, but, on the contrary, just as it emerges from capitalist society; which is thus in every respect, economically, morally, and intellectually, still stamped with the birthmarks of the old society from whose womb it emerges. Accordingly, the individual producer receives back from society – after the deductions have been made – exactly what he gives to it. What he has given to it is his individual quantum of labor. For example, the social working day consists of the sum of the individual hours of work; the individual labor time of the individual producer is the part of the social working day contributed by him, his share in it. He receives a certificate from society that he has furnished such-and-such an amount of labor (after deducting his labor for the common funds); and with this certificate, he draws from the social stock of means of consumption as much as the same amount of labor cost. The same amount of labor which he has given to society in one form, he receives back in another.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htmRead Gothakritik
>>2614959If you think Deng, a man who fought as a Communist in the World Antifascist War, is "Hitler" you need to get your head checked. 🤣
>>2614947> Diagreeing is racistHoly idpol lol. Shut up liberaloid.
>>2614979remove vargas and park chung-hee and add kubitschek and nehru
"Marxism-Leninism is not a dogma, it is a guide to action and a creative theory. So, Marxism-Leninism can display its indestructible vitality only when it is applied creatively to suit the specific conditions of each country. The same applies to the experience of the fraternal parties. It will prove valuable to us only when we make a study of it, grasp its essence and properly apply it to our realities. Instead, if we just gulp it down and spoil our work, it will not only harm our work but also lead to discrediting the valuable experience of the fraternal parties." - KIM IL SUNG
''On eliminating dogmatism and
formalism and establishing Juche
in ideological work''
Speech to Party Propagandists and Agitators
December 28, 1955
https://www.marxists.org/archive/kim-il-sung/1955/12/28.htm>>2614954Can anyon explain to me why mls favourite Marxist quotes are those vague enough that they can be twisted into justification of the market and capital existing?
>>2615014>>2615014>Justify capital existingYou have a baby brain. A little tiny baby's brain.
>>2615021China is capitalist, nakedly so. It's called social democracy with keynesian characteristics.
Your type only gives them a pass because you got orientalist brainworms.
>>2614940You're a total fucking retard if you think communism is about instantly disappearing the mode of production or mechanism of distribution. I cannot believe how hard this is to grasp for most of you. That you think communism is when no McDonald's. I mean it really baffles me. Is communism a religion for you all? Do you just take some essential need for magical thinking and apply it to some contemporary perceived ideology?
>>2615025I want you to please… PLEASE…
Please fucking Jesus Christ Lord aboveUnderstand what the difference is between
Communism as a mode of production
And communism as an ideology and praxis in the Marxist sense.
>>2615026Communism actually requires abolishing class society, wage labour and commodity production at the bare minimum.
Reverting to capitalism for 40+ years amd calling that socialism because you made a pinky promise you're eventually going to do anything of the above while moving in exactly the opposite direction is a fucking joke.
>>2615032You are a fucking brainlet holy shit
>>2615020What I find frustrating is that I am accused of "quote mining" and "taking quotes out of context" but my interlocutors are simply making declarations. They offer no corrections to my statements. They do not show my quotes in their "correct" context that I supposedly took them "out" of. They do not show how I have misunderstood or misinterpreted the quotes. They simply declare "you are quote mining and those quotes are out of context!" and dust off their hands.
I think the quotes I have provided are in a clear context with source provided. I really do think Marxism-Leninism is not a dogma but a creative guide to action. I do think situational awareness dictates that compromises have to be made on a strategic basis sometimes, not due to the total abandonment of Marxism, but because of the need to protect the gains made so far. What you may regard as opportunism and betrayal others may regard as the non-dogmatic and creative application of Marxism-Leninism to local conditions. But I want to see us as on the same team here. We are solving a puzzle together. We need to come up with a truly scientific way to apply Marxism-Leninism creatively and strategically to local conditions without becoming opportunistic. Rather than calling me a retard please teach me something. Help me to see, if I am wrong, the error of my ways. I am always willing to evolve my views and take in new information.
>>2615032>communism requires a certain mode of productionYou are a
fucking retard
>>2615028>Communism as a mode of production>And communism as an ideology and praxis in the Marxist sense.<communism as an ideologyLmao
>>2614961Because I thought the image was funnier alone, and I thought I would answer my own question.
keynes was a marxist
all of his students spied for the soviet union
keynesianism is just another path to communism
>>2615212good morning milei
markets and economic planning have been around since ancient fucking Egypt realistically most economies will have both before and after the capitalist mode of production.
>>2615254
whats the cool third option your alluding too then?
Leninists get so mad when someone suggests there might be more to communism than just nationalization and eventual capitulation to capitalists.
you don't like Chinese socialism? then move, libtard
>>2615361Not really. People get upset at the pragmatic compromises being made by the few nations which have had proletarian revolutions. They creatively apply Marxism to their local conditions, and, to protect their gains, compromise in other areas based on tactical and strategic considerations. These compromises are being made in the context of a global system which is still very capitalist and imperialist. Unless you have a way to make proletarian revolution break out simultaneously in all the countries of the world, especially the richest and most developed, the countries which have had proletarian revolutions will continue to make compromises not based on betrayal of principles, but based on practical considerations and creative application of theory to local conditions. To get angry about this strikes people as an ultra-left error because if you seized power in your own country, you would be forced to make similar considerations.
It's the present, because everything else has crumbled. It's a symptom of the degradation of the left globally after losing the references of the last century.
>>2614979I have respect for Lee Yew.
>>2614940Yes but only for nonwhite nations.
The truth of the matter is most people do not care how many walls of text you can type about how the pre-revisionist USSR was actually great. People look at results. The "pure" forms of rule by communist parties all failed while the most notable example of market socialism in history is quickly becoming the most powerful country in the world.
China is walking a tightrope and their success is by no means guaranteed, nor are they currently an ideal country to live in, but it's the only alternative to capitalism that's shown itself to be plainly viable in the past few decades without requiring mountains of argument that most people, even self-declared socialists, will never care about.
>>2614940>Market-Socialism the future of the socialist movement or only temporary?Its a necessary stage for feudalist countries but for advanced economies like those in the 1st world they can already move towards planning especially now that we have computing power and AI for it.
>>2617249>we have computing power and AI for itThis is completely vibes based. ML is not magically better than existing methods at solving mathematical optimization problems.
>>2615028If the CPC is so communist why aren't they pursuing communism as a mode of production
>>2617259>ML is not magically better than existing methods at solving mathematical optimization problems.Never said this nor implied. Contain your anti-AI autism.
>>2617438You did imply it, because it is the only useful way that more computing power could be applied to the problems of economic planning. What part of it do you think we've failed to figure out that AI will suddenly solve?
And I'm not anti-AI at all, I'm just realistic about what it can actually do while 99% of the discourse from both the pro and anti sides just treats it as a vague idea that they can mold into whatever shape they want.
>>2614940>or are we stuck with Labubus and billboards forever?I don't see why that's a bad thing. I mean billboards can be kind of tacky, but what's wrong with Labubus? Maybe the Russians can tell us?
On a moment to moment basis, there's nothing wrong with markets per-say, so long as the core of the economy stays centrally planned. I would actually go so far as to say the production of luxuries is where market socialism succeeds the most. It's easy to account for how much of a thing people
need, to know how many houses to build, how many roads to pave, etc. But things that people merely
want, things like Labubus, are a lot murkier. It's hard to know how much subjective demand for something exists at any given time because different people have different tastes, and a lot of the time they're bad at articulating quite what they want until it's there in front of them. Currently, markets have been the best answer to this murkiness that we've been able to muster.
The main concern with market socialism, at least as it exists in contemporary AES states like China, is that it does, in fact, allow for the existence of the bourgeoisie, albeit in a limited capacity. Thus far, they've been able to keep them on a leash, but there is a risk of reaction inherent in having them around.
>>2617239>while the most notable example of market socialism in history is quickly becoming the most powerful country in the world.To be fair, much of that is really just the US running out of its post-WWII inertia. It's not like China has, or is even projected to have, the same kind of insane grip on the world that the American Empire did in the 90s and 2000s. And its growth was pretty gradual, going all the way back to Deng.
>>2614950based image will trigger the dengoids
>>2617587>On a moment to moment basis, there's nothing wrong with markets per-say, so long as the core of the economy stays centrally planned. I would actually go so far as to say the production of luxuries is where market socialism succeeds the most. It's easy to account for how much of a thing people need, to know how many houses to build, how many roads to pave, etc. But things that people merely want, things like Labubus, are a lot murkier. It's hard to know how much subjective demand for something exists at any given time because different people have different tastes, and a lot of the time they're bad at articulating quite what they want until it's there in front of them. Currently, markets have been the best answer to this murkiness that we've been able to muster.yeah but you dont need capital goods market for that only a consumer market which feeds back to state production
>>2617504Your arguing against strawmen. I implied AI is useful for predictive modeling like when amazon ships commodities to warehouses before you buy them. This would prevent bullwhip shocks in the economy when consumer preferences change.
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