/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

Mucho texto uyghur give us a tldr or I’m going back to tiktok

I will never read your idpol shit, lmao

>>2617319
you've gotta be clearer in what the question you're asking is and you're gonna struggle to pick up good discussion even then because, concurrent with setting off retards like these:
>>2617352
>>2617459
>>2617467
you also manage to have sufficient ambiguity that one could wonder if you're trying to sneak in a more advanced form of "DAE liberalism is when transhumanists exist?"

even i, unproductively, can only throw in that as our retarded friends show, it's now apparent that 2016 era SJWs were 80% right, 20% wrong, and entirely misblamed for everything. That /leftypol/, stagnant, insular, and tediously repetitive, is a dead-end. Overselected for narcissistic teenage boys a decade ago and losers who haven't moved on (hi mom!) a decade hence, how could it be any different?

TWO GENDERS

This just boils down to poststructuralism. Butler and co dissolved the enlightenment conceptions of gender (i.e the male patriarch, rugged individualism) and revealed that meanings of genders are not fixed but subjective and discursive.
What you are doing here anon is that you are trying to concede to the poststructuralists that they are right about scientism being methodologically suspect and that broad definitions are metaphysical rather than scientific, BUT at the same time you are trying to appeal to some amount of Rationalistic principles because you want to reconcile this with communism which is a very much a child of the enlightenment that poststructuralists despise

>no one can argue that it can be reduced to a mere wish
>The absurdity of identity politics is not that a man could transition into a woman, but that social categories are themselves only mediated by discourse and a nebulous power outside of a Marxist analysis of history and society
>It is natural, genetic, and determined; it is how we reproduce and select a sexual partner.

<Hey guys, i know your whole shtick is being suspicious at grand fixed claims especially ones that define itself as Science but you can't possibly think that gender and shit exist independent of actual biology and economy right? Pls accept this so i can integrate you into my grand narrative about historical process.
That is not gonna happen for the simple fact that Marxism is fundamentally a child of the enlightenment. We can easily see this from hoe Marxists call everything that disagrees with them as a form of false consciousness which is anathema to the poststructuralist conception of multiplicity and pluralism. You can call this nebulous and aristotelian but in my opinion it is no less nebulous and aristotelian than the Marxist "" historical process"" that has yet to happen to this day

>>2617470
See this is the problem of talking this stuff with internet philistines. You have anons like you who can only conceptualize it in American high school tier socialization of le beckies vs le narcissistic failed teenage boys.
Do you even realize how anti-Marxist SJW/post structuralism is? You probably think that they are good girls fighting for the rights of the oppressed and that the only people who can find any problem with them are libidinally impotent boys. Please read Focault. This applies to the anti sjw people here too you guys do not understand what is at stake here and is permanently high school brained

>>2617490
I know you have more than a hammer, so don't go assuming I'm a nail. The only people I've called narcissistic failed teenage boys are people who, by your own account, are permanently high-school brained.

What you're ultimately missing is that most 2016-era SJWs have drifted in a more class focused direction - I would say a Marxist direction, but that invites a theological pissing contest - over time. I wouldn't class them as particularly strong poststructuralists to begin with, or particularly strong Marxists afterwards (though still stronger than the average user here for what it's worth.) They've all ultimately moved up or moved on. If I conceptualize this as anything, it is not high-school socialization, it's online socialization. These people have matured sufficiently beyond high-school to be worth taking seriously!
/leftypol/ on the other hand weaker than it was in 2016 across a whole range of areas, the political beliefs of its average user are drivel, and worse than that, they're not even interesting.

Less than nothing is at stake in philosophical debates on the internet. All the major sources of problems and error lie elsewhere. There is no group sufficiently developed that its problems can arise from coherently articulated philosophy, as-such. Lots are sunk by being ersatz religions without realizing it, however.

And this is where i offer you Dugin as a way to get out from the Ontological rut and nihilism produced by poststructuralism. Rather than reinforcing the old Marxian belief of base superstructure (which in effect amount to changing the definition of base to fit in to preconceived notions of superstructure, look at how many substratum marxists have partitioned from the proletariat such as labour aristocrats etc to explain why the proles have divergent political interests) let us turn to what i call woke Duginism. Here, it is absurd to say that a man can transition to a woman because a transwoman is its own dasein that is separate from an AFAB ciswoman; no transwoman would agree to let a ciswoman actress to fill in a transwoman role in a movie. This is not anti trans bigotry but affirmation of pluralities that are all equal with each other and is ontologically rooted to material reality, namely Being, unlike the Marxian material reality which seeks to diminish individual epistemologies into the class universal signifier

>>2617319
I'm of the opinion that "gender" as something distinct from sex isn't particularly useful.

>>2617459
>>2617467
>>2617479
You know, posts like these are technically against the rules, but the mods don't like enforcing rule 11 for whatever reason. OP at the very least put effort into their post and is attempting to start a dialog. All you fucks want to do is shitpost and shut discussion down.

https://goingagainstthetide.org/2025/09/01/capitalism-cant-tolerate-trans-people-so-lets-overthrow-it-class-divisions-third-genders-and-proletarian-revolution/

Openly shilling this based maoist essay on gender

>>2617493
>Marxian material reality which seeks to diminish individual epistemologies into the class universal signifier
In science there is the concept of superposition. Where it applies, it allows one to conceptualize a set of forces affecting an entity as a single force or vice-versa. The fact that the politico-economic exploitation of the proletariat, the socio-economic servitude of the female sex and the psycho-socially enforced normalcy of bourgeois cishets aren't mutually exclusive shows them effecting a state of superposition, a basis for concepts like Intersectionality.

>>2617495
>All you fucks want to do is shitpost and shut discussion down
Welcome to leftypol.

nobody should have sex ever

>>2618233
Intersectionality fails because class warfare is inherently different then other struggle. While all struggle ultimatly stems from class struggle.
Every other struggle can succed under a capitalist framework, there is no reason as to why a capitalist system have equality between men and women, between black and white, gay and straight. In fact, it's already happened in the past, You don't really see people hate on catholics or protestants in the West anymore, because the demands of religious equality and an end to systemic discriminations are perfectly compatible with the capitalist economic system.

This is the same with every other struggle for equality, sure communists should use the existance of discriminations to denounce the capitalist system, but they should center them around a class based system, explain why capitalism caused those issues but even if they are fixed this doesn't change the inherent issues of capitalism. Intersectionnality attempt to put them on equal levels isn't compatible with reality, as class struggle's only solution is the destruction of capitalism

>>2618291
>Intersectionality fails because class warfare is inherently different then other struggle. While all struggle ultimatly stems from class struggle.
I say this about national liberation and people get mad.

>>2617479
>>2617319
No genders.







boom








There, I fixed sexism, misogyny, misandry, femicide, gender dysphoria, transphobia, everything.

>>2618336
You'd also be right, I don't get why people defend them so much when they've been a failure on the anti-capitalist front.
I think India is a great exemple of what I'm talking about, communist actively acted for it's independance against the British empire, in hope of the nationalists turning to communism afterwards.
But that failed, nowadays India is lead by Hindu Ultranationalists and the proletarian movement has all been crushed, how is that a victory for communism ? The intersectional approach has failed, and nowadays it just seems like a desperate try for relevance.

I heard Italy just recently outlawed femicide. Can you believe that it was legal to murder females until 2025 in Italy. That's fucked up innit.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c1dzp050yn2o
Italian parliament unanimously votes to make femicide a crime

>>2618413
>I heard Italy just recently outlawed femicide. Can you believe that it was legal to murder females until 2025 in Italy. That's fucked up innit.
I mean, you'd be surprised what they can get away with in much of europe, re killing women.
It's not great.

>>2618291
>Every other struggle can succed under a capitalist framework
You fail to see the reciprocality of this condition. Every struggle not strictly part of proletarian class struggle may remain unresolved after the abolition of private property, though likewise the entanglements of these issues with the world capitalist system are mitigating factors. While class struggle may currently be the determining facet of the oppression of mankind, patriarchy and much of the bourgeois social apparatus stand on their own as relatively independent issues, where addressing them will bring marked improvement, regardless of whether this builds class consciousness as well. When to pursue them is a question of Leninist tactics.

>>2618413
Woke has gone too far.

>>2618436
These struggles will resolved itself in communism, just like capitalism resolved the religious struggle in the west.
But even taking something like the patriarchy, in a strict sense of the word, it's essentially gone in the West, hard to argue that the western woman is still under the control of her father or of her husband, this obviously doesn't mean that sexism is gone, plenty of women continue to be discriminated for their sex, but they are not under the control of their husband or fathers or at least not more then men. This can be directly attributed to multiple things, but the main one is the gradual entry of women in the workforce and the fact that technological progress made most sexual differences quasi-obsolete, this gave women independance from their fathers and husands, putting an end to patriarchal familial structures, we're essentially at the end of this processus in the west now. (I'm simplifying a lot but you get my point)
There will be a similar processus under communism for whatever is left of discrimination under capitalism, because there will be no material reason for this discrimination, if you eliminate the cause you eliminate the discrimination, this processus will happen naturally over a longer time period.
Altho, I'll grand that sexism may never trully be resolved due to biological differences between men and women.

>>2617485
marx literally calls aristotle the greatest mind in antiquity, applying much of what he says in his own writings, so i dont understand this resentment against the philosopher.
>>2617319
>Are feminism and transgender liberation ideologies used for indoctrination and social control? Not at all.
why not? indoctrination and social control are the signs of power. so then, you are either forced to submit to powerlessness, or be deceptive. obviously, you are deceptive, since feminism and trans education have been extremely powerful tools used by academia as of late.
>People often flatten or exaggerate a biological fact, a male human is stronger on average than a female human, to inform rigid social hierarchies in fascism or capitalism.
capitalism and fascism depend upon the feminisation of man, as he becomes a prostitute for wage labour, selling his body.
>In the past, sexuality and gender were rigidly defined and prescribed by the state and the bourgeoisie
its even worse today; if a boy plays with girl toys, "progressives" want to castrate him to make him align with his gender expression. this is why people say transsexualism can be an erasure of homosexuality (like how iran forces gays to become transsexuals to reify the gender binary).
>a single male leader does not really map onto how we understand dominance hierarchies in the natural world.
yes, but in a counter-intuitive way; public patriarchy is ruled by a private matriarchy, as plutarch writes from atrribution to cato:
<Discoursing on the power of women, he said: “All other men rule their wives; we rule all other men, and our wives rule us.”
https://lexundria.com/plut_cat_ma/8/prr
if we read ancient literature we also see how someone like zeus feared the wrath of hera. prominent in these times were also priestesses who served as spiritual authorities. so "patriarchy" is really a myth in the common sense. what we understand as rigid and binary categories only arise out of capitalist social relations, not any "natural" predisposition. its the opposite in fact, as others relate, where they say that humans were originally matriarchical, such as engels, graves and paglia. the bible even relates the story, of how eve was the leader of adam in temptation, and afterwards, a division of labour was imposed upon the sexes, which gave man his power over the woman.
>The absurdity of identity politics is not that a man could transition into a woman, but that social categories are themselves only mediated by discourse and a nebulous power outside of a Marxist analysis of history and society.
what? power is an end in itself, and is shared between groups, but primarily located in the state. foucault is an excellent historian, and this gesture of relating everything back to marx is boring.

>>2618291
empirically this isn't how it's played out. the types who spoke about intersectionality in 2016 have ultimately realized that the thing causing all these intersections is capitalism, while the types performatively trying to reassure /pol/ that TRUE marxists don't believe in women and faggots have if-anything politically regressed over time.

this is the sort of development that makes sense sociologically (intersectionalists have a lot of incentives to increase and radicalize their demands, while class-first types inherently define themselves by contrast to intersectionalists, often by having more moderate demands.) but is harder to explain ideologically. on paper, the class-first emphasis type goes "ah yes, we'll fix all your minority issues with revolution" but in practice is drawn to the view not because they really think it's most effective, but because they want to talk about whether we'll have ice cream under communism rather than about issues that don't affect them personally.

>>2618755
I frankly hadn't had this experience, in France, the more intersectional type joined socdem parties while the more traditional class first marxists have become more irrelevent, Lutte Ouvrière is probably the most relevent out of them and while they do field candidates in the presidential elections, they rarely ever do more then 2%
If I had to give a reason as to why it's like that, it's just that under the current climate the labor issues aren't at the forefront of political debates, so the intersectionnalists try to achieve victories in other fields, class first marxists can't really achieve anything currently. (Altho I do think the communist acting like /pol/ just are reactionnaries with a red veneer, a bit like those Eastern European "socialist parties" that are pro-free market like PiS)

>>2618469
>These struggles will resolved itself in communism, just like capitalism resolved the religious struggle in the west.
If we consider the USSR as an example of communism, in the sense of the real movement abolishing the current state of things, it clearly runs counter to this notion. Its universal education and childcare systems lead to women attaining the status of an equal subject in many ways, anticipated by the disappearance of capitalist forces i alluded to. Still there remained social relations you cannot explain away as vestigal sexism, such as the nuclear family structure.
>plenty of women continue to be discriminated for their sex, but they are not under the control of their husband or fathers or at least not more then men
If women are coerced into labor or siloed into low-paying jobs, it is men at large that benefit economically and individual men that may seize this advantage and become conscious of their interest in perpetuating these conditions. This dynamic continues to be in effect in 'muhrica, 'berian findom bait notwithstanding https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2025/03/04/gender-pay-gap-in-us-has-narrowed-slightly-over-2-decades/

>>2618755
What's the empirical evidence for the assertion you keep posting all over the place that tumblr types have evolved to become more class conscious? I sure as hell don't see any noticeable upsurge in radical politics in the west. It's more like everyone got demoralized and depoliticized since 2016 and retreated into isolated online circlejerks, both tumblr and stupidpol types.

Bourgeois ideology, strongly influences social consciousness by reframing complex social problems—such as violence against women, gender, racism, and identity—through the narrow lens of individual rights. This ideological framework obscures the social and class roots of oppression and therefore must be confronted theoretically and politically. The task is to critically examine the social and economic conditions that give rise to these ideas, their anti-scientific and irrational character, their institutional enforcement, their strategic role for the capitalist system, and the necessity of their systematic, evidence-based opposition.
The spread of these ideologies is linked to changes within the working class itself, particularly the growth of new strata of wage labor that rely increasingly on intellectual and creative capacities. These groups often lack collective experience, class consciousness, and organizational skills. Capitalist forces seek to keep them fragmented and individualized, preventing their transformation from a “class in itself” into a “class for itself.” Within this context, individuals are increasingly defined as bearers of marketable skills rather than as social beings. Alienation, consumerism, and narcissistic culture promote artificial needs and fragmented identities, encouraging a proliferation of individualized “rights” detached from collective and class interests.
Lifestyle, consumption patterns, and self-presentation become part of the commodification of the self. The obsessive pursuit of extreme self-definition—especially through fluid gender and sexual identities—is presented as liberation but instead leads to endless dissatisfaction, loss of meaning, and intensified alienation. Sexuality, detached from its biological, emotional, social, and cultural dimensions, becomes fetishized and instrumentalized, reflecting the broader emptiness produced by capitalist social relations.
Foucauldian micro-power theories and postmodern claims that gender and identity are arbitrary social constructions are the basis. Such approaches elevate particularity while rejecting universality, collectivity, and class-based subjectivity. Methodologically, they oscillate between biological determinism and sociological reductionism, both rooted in a metaphysical, anti-dialectical understanding of humanity that blocks scientific analysis of social laws and historical development.
These ideologies are not merely academic but are actively enforced through state and supranational institutions, international organizations, NGOs, and media networks. The same forces responsible for wars, exploitation, and social devastation promote gender and identity policies, fund academic programs and activism, and normalize practices such as commercial surrogacy. Such policies represent new forms of bodily exploitation and, particularly regarding children, constitute grave crimes.
This strategy serves an aggressive objective of global capital: the dissolution of collective bonds and even the biological foundations of human continuity, in order to preempt the formation of revolutionary subjects. Popular instinctive rejection of these developments reflects a healthy response to systemic decay, but without a scientific and organized progressive alternative, this reaction can be exploited by reactionary or fascist forces.
The communist strategic goal is a society where the full development of every personality is a condition for social development itself. Rights struggles are meaningful only insofar as they are organically linked to this goal and to the collective abolition of exploitation, oppression, and discrimination.
However,
“Everything that is human in the human being—that is, precisely what distinguishes them from animals—is 100% (not 90% or even 99%) the result of the social development of human society, and every individual capacity is an individually exercised function of the social, not the biological, organism, even though it is carried out by the natural, biologically innate organs of the human body—in this case, the brain.” (Ilyenkov)
While it is necessary to contribute in a comprehensive way to the critique of postmodern ideology, the excessive emphasis placed on it underestimates the persistent and intensifying dominance of traditional bourgeois ideology around gender (“fatherland–religion–family”). This is more deeply connected to the political weakness and/or unwillingness to rally LGBT workers in a revolutionary direction.
The problem, therefore, is not limited to the weighing of ideological currents, but concerns the problematic state of our intervention in the gender question and its theoretical foundations. We correctly identified the philosophical roots of the issue. However, theoretical questions cannot be detached from their political and movement-related consequences. In this context, a related but distinct question arises: on what terms is the confrontation with postmodernism conducted? These terms cannot be reduced to mechanistic materialism, nor exhausted by proclamations of “objective reality.” However radical such positions may appear today, the demands are higher. Only dialectical materialism is consistent materialism.
Human survival and development rest on the metabolism between social humanity and nature through labor, which is not merely a technical act but a social relation and the basis of consciousness; by changing nature, human beings change themselves. Marxism rejects biological reductionism and mechanistic materialism, recognizing that human capacities, consciousness, and identity are products of socio-historical development, with a material biological basis, within specific social relations. They are not reducible to lower forms of the motion of matter. This is the content of Marx’s critique of earlier materialism, including Feuerbach, when he pointed out that it failed to grasp reality also as human material activity, as practice, subjectively.
On the basis of contemporary scientific data, the complexity of the biology of sex, the existence of intersex conditions, and the “plasticity” of neurological (the unity of brain development with cultural, familial, etc. environments), hormonal, and bodily characteristics come to light—facts that refute simplistic biologism. Ultimately, only the dialectical-materialist methodology grasps these phenomena as contradictory expressions of a single, dynamic reality and provides a foundation for a consistent politics of emancipation, in contrast to the postmodern reduction of self-determination to a verbal act.
The species Homo sapiens was constituted through biological preconditions marking the transition from the herd to society, while the regulation of reproduction through exogamous kinship ties and the use of tools laid the foundations of the specifically social form of the motion of matter. Engels, in The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State, documents the existence of the pre-class primitive communal system and links the emergence of surplus product, classes, and the state to the “world-historic defeat of the female sex”—a thesis generally confirmed by contemporary anthropology, though specific historical details concerning the allegedly “natural” gendered division of labor require revision. The monogamous family, as the economic unit of class society, became the basis of the gendered division of labor, the chief perpetrator of the double oppression of women and LGBT people for the benefit of the ruling classes.
The oppression of women and LGBT workers is not a legal anomaly but a structural element of capitalism. The EU and bourgeois states promote formal equality and women’s “rights” as mechanisms of flexible labor, while maintaining wage inequalities and structures of patriarchal dependence, since the need for the nuclear family for the reproduction and disciplining of labor power—and, by extension, the criminalization of non-normative sexuality—is deeply rooted in the history of capital. Despite official proclamations, data show systematic discrimination against LGBT workers, particularly trans people, while legal equality conceals material oppression. The bourgeois state continues to exploit patriarchal notions to divide and exploit the working class. These lead even to murderous violence. The management of AIDS/HIV by bourgeois states was also murderous. Genuine emancipation presupposes the overthrow of capitalist relations of production.
Historically, the emancipation of women and LGBT people is linked to class struggle, while opportunist degeneration and eventual incorporation into individual rights discourse reflect weaknesses within the communist movement itself—despite evidence that socialism can abolish the material basis of this oppression (the October Revolution, the GDR, and Czechoslovakia).
The oppression of women and LGBT workers is not a matter of “attitudes,” but a product of exploitative relations of production and the bourgeois family and ideological framework. The bourgeois notion of “self-determination” and individual rights appears as a semblance of freedom that conceals wage slavery and deeper social inequality. We must not cede this concept to our enemies. On the contrary, real bodily self-determination and equality can exist only through collective emancipation.
Ideological confrontation with bourgeois philosophy is insufficient without practical struggle for the emancipation of LGBT workers. Denouncing marriage as an institution is a necessary starting point, but it is not enough when it entails tangible economic and social security benefits. The contemporary revolutionary Program constitutes the only consistent basis for a strategic confrontation with state institutions, revealing that bourgeois laws do not aim at substantive equality but at the commodification of reproduction, adoption, and the female body, and at ideological incorporation. A revolutionary policy must combine a comprehensive anti-capitalist proposal to detach the family from economic coercion with concrete measures facilitating the lives of the oppressed. This expresses a central task for communists today: overcoming the contradiction between the formally and the substantively revolutionary character of our work, as theoretical shortcomings lead to tactics that neither serve the interests of LGBT workers nor strengthen their rallying and the unity of the movement.
For the revolutionary Program to enter the lives of the oppressed, certain backward views must be overcome. A child’s development is independent of the parents’ sexuality: relatively so, since it is not responsible for homophobia or the deficiencies of the bourgeois state; absolutely so, since personality formation is determined by the mode of production, social relations, and participation in class struggle. Motherhood and fatherhood have social content, which is transformed under socialism, as illustrated by Gorky’s Mother, who felt all the children of the Soviet people to be her own.
Ultimately, under the rainbow of imperialism, LGBT workers fight “under a foreign flag.” The true symbol of the emancipation of all humanity is the red banner, which sooner or later will fly again. Thus, LGBT workers can find their freedom only in common struggle with the revolutionary workers’ movement.

>>2618715
> its even worse today; if a boy plays with girl toys, "progressives" want to castrate him to make him align with his gender expression.
Literally no one says that, not even the “progressives” on Reddit. Turn off Fox News and go touch the grass.

>>2617470
>>2617492
SJWs largely turned into VOOOOTE BLUE NO MATTER WHO YOU FUCKING CHUD radlibs, they're not more Marxist now than they were 10-12 years ago.

>>2619206
SJWs turned into imperialist obsessed retards too lmao

>>2619206
>>2619249
If you do Marxism right the chuds will call you sjw and woke though, liberating women and minorities has been central to every socialist project when bourgeois feminist and anti racist movements were concurrent, and it doesn't make much difference in the eye of the rabid chinlets.

I like what you said .
Bur You make the fundamental assumption Judith butler points out that people read in her work . That there is a subject where gender inherently abides in . For example the assumption that we can know what “ sex “ is . That is based on a subject we actually don’t know what sex is we only know our thoughts on something thought has called sex

>>2619266
We can know what sex is, it's a biological phenomenon with a very clear definition ?

>>2619329
>We can know what sex is
I akschually have empirical evidence to back up your claims.

>>2619206
they absolutely did not.
the median position was "do not vote Kamala because she endorses Biden's genocide and will probably win anyway"

if you want an accurate model of SJWs they're trying to be cooler, more radical, and more morally pure than you, which is why they all now purport to be communists. they aren't "really" communists, but neither is /leftypol/.

>>2619266
in her book "the discursive limits of sex", she simply says that sex is a discourse, not that discourse cannot approximate reality

>>2619385
Does she say that about all of biology ? Why would sex be any different then something like diseases ?