Daily reminder that, contrary to Leninist claims, so-called left communism has been tried and has succeeded. Rojava and the Zapatistas have both maintained genuine classless, stateless societies for over a decade each, 12 years for the former, 30 years for the latter. A decade, let alone three, is not a fluke, it's a success story. It's especially not a fluke when you've survived despite being at the barrel of a hundred guns, which is the case with Rojava.
Daily reminder that a revolution is not successful unless it actually succeeds at its stated goals. Jettisoning any and all ideological standards in the name of "defending the revolution" isn't a victory for communism, because it doesn't actually get us any closer to communism. Leninist states like the Soviet Union and PRC have, in terms of material reality, rather than stated ideology, not only failed to achieve classless, stateless societies, but have instead drifter further and further away from their supposed goal the longer they've been in existence.
The future, the actual future, is left communism. Leninism is an infantile disorder.
Not defending Leninism, but I think several strategies can be successful toward socialism. Dengism has also been greatly successful. In key areas even anarchism.
As long as you generally understand what material analysis is you can generally cobble something good enough together that fits local conditions.
>>2621983
>likely
You can't even commit to an insult.
>>2621992
Ah, this is regarding the example context. tbh I've been taking OP's word things are going good with the Zapatistas but if you have some reading material I'll happily add it to the queue.
That said you need to decide if you wanna be abrasive or nuanced. Both defang the other.
>>2622022
Nah I've just heard of them, mainly the coffee thing.
>>2621974They sell coffee though so fuck em
>>2622047Load bearing hope vs cynicism are separated mainly by perspective.
>>2621974>Rojava and the Zapatistaslol they both tankie
>>2622047>Why do people think there is only one true Golden Path to communism when the real history of class struggles has always been a complex and protracted process, full of fits and starts and regressions?Cause many people think that the regressions are the advancements.
Left communists think Rojava is a lib state tho, which is true. Muh national liberation and all that.
>>2621974But leftcoms worship Lenin, larpbro. Try again with anarchists or dengists (mls)
>>2622461Not councilists tho
>>2622047Too much playing Paradox games, too little reading and thinking.
>>2621974Infantile Lenin turned into mummy while oligarchs plunder and murder his countrymen. Sad!
>>2622447Bordiga/ᴉuᴉlossnW fanboys have nothing to do with communism.
>t-they were s-sucessful
>one is a millitary base for the US transvetited as a leftist project
>the other is dissolving
>both suffer from open ideological warfare internally because no amount of ideological teaching will organically build a line and government
oh no broes.
>>2623426>assad overthrown>ussr collapsedIts over for leninists.
>>2623435yet it never began for leftcomnoids.
>>2621974>Rojava and the ZapatistasNeither is "left communist"
>>2623473 (me)
Also please explain how Rojava is classless and stateless. I don't even hate Rojava like some here but this is genuinely delusional.
>>2623487it's just a confederated capitalist nation that some wants to larp what it's not.
nothing to really hate or like.
>>2623506Also I think there's something to be said of the questionable legitimacy of a kurdish-dominated armed group's rule over the arab populations in the areas they control. There are regular demonstrations against the SDF by arabs there. You can argue these people are sunni islamists who need to be repressed
and I would tend agree but that doesn't really jibe with OP's claim of statelessness.
>>2621974>RojavaYou mean SOCOM?
Presumably, communism will have to grow out of being irrelevant dirt-poor rural communes and imperialist world hegemon client states, at some point. Then what?
inb4
>Nono you can do anarchism in one coun– uhh… self-governed region!
>>2622491>>2621974Councilists at best tolerate the Rojava, but it is by no means their project.
>>2624327>Makhnovschina >Catalonia Excellent bait post, you almost got me to reply sincerely anon
OP is based.
Doe Rojava and the Zapatistas have class and the abolishment of class is still gonna take like 200 years (at the best and even thats probably WAY to high) even in these societies.
The Zapatistas are also declining in population because the youth are leaving for the cities.
>>2621982Dengism is Leninism. Stop asserting Deng wasn't Leninist.
>>2621974>Rojava and the Zapatistas neither of them would call themselves leftcom, nor would I would define them like that
>both maintained genuine classless, stateless societies lol what? completely delusional
you're basically living in fantasy dreamland my dude
>>2624347Ok I could’ve phrased that better. Makhnovischina and Catalonia DID fail and were flawed (every ideology is in some way) but their failures were not due to any inherent flaws in their ideology but more so that they were fighting a civil war on 3 fronts and didn’t have the time to develop like the other nations
>>2624415>more so that they were fighting a civil war on 3 fronts and didn’t have the time to developthats literally the same as the soviets (although soviets had it even worse with all the foreign interventions all over russia), and the fact the catalonians were dumb enough to attack the soviet backed communists and the republicans while already loosing is definitely proof of an ideological flaw called profound stupidity and disconnect from material reality over purity wanking
>>2622104They used to be ML and Maoist respectively, they went through massive political shifts after the fall of the USSR, as many other communist groups at the time did
>>2625306>they went through massive political shifts after the fall of the USSRAnd at no point has either ever been "leftcom"
>using pre-industrial examples
While slighly useful as case studies, they have little relevance to our material conditions. They might as well be hunter-gatherer tribes.
>>2621974>wonIf your standard of "winning" amounts to small-scale co-operative production in third world countries, then yes, they've won.
But by any other metrics they have not won. They haven't managed to form any coherent state on the world scene, and have extremely limited power. If Turkey wanted to invade Rojava for instance, it would be over in a week.
To that end, I actually think that leftcom can be adapted to semi-feudal third world countries with destabilized regimes. The reality is that any state that consolidates after a non-capitalist revolution in these kinds of conditions will inherently face massive opposition and counterrevolution. The perfect example of this is probably Nicaragua. To that end, when the state is failing, socialist production from the grounds up is probably a good way to escape the cycle of failed revolutions (revolution -> embargoes & mismanagement -> paranoia & failing economy -> dictatorship).
However, the reality is that these kind of co-operative socialist movement are inadapted for 1st and 2nd world countries where the state has a minimum of power and where the economy is already developed to an extent.
>Leninist states like the Soviet Union and PRC have, in terms of material reality, rather than stated ideology, not only failed to achieve classless, stateless societiesThey failed because of a lack of democratic accountability, not because leninism is inherently bureaucratic.
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