/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

Pretty easy conclusion to come to when you remember that it's LITERALLY A RELIGIOUS SECT.

>>2656326
I think the mistake leftists often make is arguing that every single evil in the world exists exclusively because of capitalism. Obviously that can't be the case because evil existed long before capitalism.
The primary foundations of Israel are religious fundamentalist ethnonationalism and western imperialism. The former is what drives Zionism and the latter is what sustains it.
However, this isn't to say that Israel isn't deeply intertwined with capitalist enterprise.

>>2656352
Early Zionists were atheists. I don't think it's correct to see as a sect of Judaism, although it's definitely influenced by it.
Plus many Israelis are either secular or atheist, but are still Zionists and support the genocide gleefully.

Imagine if scientology or another deranged cult got a state, this is what Zionism is.

what do you mean no material explanation? they are making a shit load of money, israel is a money printing machine, what do you think people are doing in the middle of the desert? it's all about money and resources.

you have to be retarded to think ideology has something to do with it, ideology is what the zionists use to convince everyone else, not what they truly believe.

>>2656326
Jews are the oldest identity on the planet.
You give them a nation it's gonna be fucked by zealots. Imagine if Masons had their own nation state? It wouldn't be that dude the sells pancakes for the PTA fundraiser, it's gonna be some crazy zealot. Its the same with Zionism. Shits just a bad idea.

Most of this board is Zionist.

To be Zionist is to treat 'Israel" as a homogeneous society with no inherent contradictions and class struggle.

And yes it is very much just bourgeois nationalism

>>2656552
I support Israel, may they kill many more muslims like syrian jihad muslims and have a very jewish ethnoreligious state.
ISRAEL IF YOU NEED ANY HELP KILLING KATWA CALL ME, I KNOW MANY INDIANS SUCH AS MYSELF WHO WOULD JOIN THE IDF! I SUPPORT YOU SO VERY MUCH ISRAEL.

>>2656326
>You know, I came to the conclusion Zionism cannot have any kind of materialist explanation, because it's not capitalism or whatever
Are you sure

>>2656326
>Zionism cannot have any kind of materialist explanation, because it's not capitalism or whatever
So true!
t. never read a word of Marx

>>2656380
Historically the Israelis carved out a niche selling Western-style weapons to all kinds of crazy countries at a lower price point. There's a lot of money in that. Technology grew up on the back of that. Also pharma is a big industry there. It was also a center for diamond cutting / trading which used to be bigger (very Jewish trade). Palestine isn't really known for being rich in resources.

>>2656371
There are real religious zealots there and Jews do get into cults (including Scientology) but a lot of them are not really religious. Also the Jewish religion is pretty weird, it's very praxis oriented, that is it's more about what you do like eating kosher and following Jewish law than what you believe really. Like it's about showing up and casting the spells but their traditional figures openly get angry with God and argue with him.

Anyways, there were communists a century ago who opposed Zionism because they saw it as a bourgeois nationalist solution to the Jewish question. Capitalism and nation-states historically rose up together and are intertwined because the nation-state provides a basis for capitalist development while managing the class antagonisms produced by capitalism. You also have to understand the appeal of Zionism to Jews. It's not "right" in "theory" nor does this justify it but the idea is that they have a Jewish state with their own army. But they also oppress the shit out of people at the same time. They're not any more "evil" than any other bourgeois nationalist project. Bourgeois nationalism has been responsible for more wars and death than anything else in history.

>>2656552
>To be Zionist is to treat 'Israel" as a homogeneous society with no inherent contradictions and class struggle.
No it's not, where did you come up with this? To be a zionist is to believe in a Jewish national homeland in Palestine. How you do or do not perceive Israel to be homogeneous or whatever is completely irrelevant.

>>2656611
the last part of the post is really quite important, in general bourgeois nationalist projects are not too different fundamentally to israel when it comes down to it, there's a reason why czechoslovakia (and its successors) still have laws forbidding germans from owning things in it for example, or why czechoslovakia even existed to begin wtih, same with any other constructed nation, when put into similar conditions to israel you'll realize they're all fundamentally the exact same

>>2656703
A Jewish 'homeland' (state) is already present you don't have to believe in it. What you have to believe in is le indivisible nation otherwise class struggle will collapse said state

Leftists like Zionists conceal the class reality of Israeli society

>>2656710
Whether you believe it should exist or not, that's what Zionism is, the fact that the state exists doesn't change that. This thing about how indivisible said state is, or whatever particularities of it's class character you believe in is just something you made up and irrelevant to what Zionism is.

>>2656705
I think one difference in perception is that Israel arrived relatively late. Marxists can have a kind of schema where bourgeois nationalism was progressive in the 19th century (versus the ancien regimes) and then not in the 20th century in which it would be superseded by socialism. Israel arrived then and comes across as a freak because it seems out of time. But socialism got rolled back and there was a historical regression. Most Jews are Zionists now when they a lot of them used to be socialists. It's like historical development wasn't supposed to take this turn but it did and it also succeeded, and leftists have trouble with that because it doesn't fit their teleology.

But history in reality seems like it takes a lot of twists and turns. What you can say is that we live in capitalism and nationalism seems to constantly revive itself as a form of organizing populations under capitalism. Nationalism can also solve problems for some people but it also reproduces domination for others. Also a lot of leftists are essentially nationalists too.

>>2656743
that's not necessarily true, some of the later bourgeois revolutions are also praised or at least once were as well, you had the post-ww1 bourgeois revolutions and the like, then the one later, the difference with israel is that it's doing the logical conclusion of any bourgeois nationalist state when it reaches an impasse with the population around it that don't fit it, either deport them, include a small contingent in your government or annihilate them, all of these have been implemented by israel, but likewise have been implemented by other projects like yugoslavia, turkiye, etc

Retards fighting for retarded spooks doesn't disprove materialism, not like it matters because >>2656380 and also tons of farmland

>>2656718
>muh ideology
It's just bourgeois nationalism retard.
What's the purpose of nationalism? Theory tells us it is to subordinate (working) class interests under (bourgeois) 'national' interests.

The ideas and superstructure upon which it is built are irrelevant. If you know that, and you don't know anything else, then you know more than if you knew everything else and not that.

>>2656793
>muh no argument
Nice
>It's just bourgeois nationalism retard.
I never denied zionism is a bourgeois nationalist project, that's what the "jewish homeland" refers to. It's also not just that, it's ethnonationalist colonialism/apartheid, that's what the "in palestine" refers to, its particularities are distinct. Your conflation of all bourgeois states into one undefined blob is not helpful to understanding Zionism as it is, historically as a movement and currently as a national ideology. If I were to say Israel is just a bourgeois nationalist state, then that doesn't differentiate it from any other country on earth, we might as well be talking about denmark or costa rica or whatever, but those countries are not zionist.

>Zionism doesn't have any particularities because… it just doesnt ok??? That's liberalism!!
Why even differentiate it then anon?

Here are Israelis

>>2656851
I really dont care what random trolls are saying on facebook.

>>2656858
It's not random trolls. This is how Israelis think

>>2656326
>Zionism cannot have any kind of materialist explanation, because it's not capitalism or whatever, it's simply a cult
???????
Cults have materialist explanations, your premise is flawed. "Materialist Explanation" does not refer to Zionism explaining itself, but non-Zionists explaining Zionism in terms of its characteristics and context in the real world.
>it's not capitalism or whatever
Neither is any other cult. You're confusing base and superstructure. Have a nice day!

>>2656815
There are particularities to Zionism. It has some distinctive features. All I'm saying is that it is nationalism. Your argument is a bit of a high-wire act because it sounds like you're trying to make Zionism out to be an exception to bourgeois nationalism in general. Like it's less legitimate. But either some forms of nationalism are legit and Zionism is not (you can make this argument), or you've gotta throw out the whole idea that being a bunch of raw uncritical nation fanatics is who "we" are (but not "them" though). You have to admit it's not one of history's most edifying belief systems.

>>2656326
Mods, ban op from all boards except edu

>>2656872

I am aware that zionism is a form of nationalism yes, I don't think it's particularly exceptional either, nazi germany, 1800s america, apartheid south africa are all pretty similar. I am not making any value judgements about zionism's legitimacy, I was merely expressing its particularities, it's not just nationalism, it's ethnonationalism and a colonial project in palestine. Imo those particularities do make it worse than some other forms of nationalism in a basic sense (the apartheid, the largest open air prison in history, etc), but that's just my personal view since you brought it up, not the argument I was making. I have no real interest in the abstract legitimacy of states or whatever

>>2656913
>nazi germany, 1800s america, apartheid south africa are all pretty similar
those are exceptional examples, they are not the median of bourgeois nationalism, instances like certain european colonies in africa (like in french algeria, angola and mozambique, italian libya and italian africa as well, and other similar events) are also decently similar to israel, likewise a number of bourgeois nationalists in the americas (outside of the US) are also markedly similar too, in europe, in asia, etc there are very similar formations to israel, past and present which have and continue to exist, israel is precisely not exceptional in comparison to other bourgeois states, that you're right about

>>2656859
People from literally every country think like that

Are you trying to imply that cults just spawn out of nothing?

>>2656611
>Palestine isn't really known for being rich in resources.

it's not about palestine, its about sticking fucking over the middle east

Zionism has a history. People made Israel into what it is today.
>ehm that's not a materialist explanation because it just isnt okay!!
total retard website

>>2657036
>people made
Voluntarism.

>>2657036
It is not a materialist explanation. No class analysis. Also, yes, we are based retards who repeat party line without understanding it.

>>2657019
I'd say it's a whole regional war economy and the military-industrial base (interconnected with the U.S.) + capital investment and the political economy that gets built around that. Zionism doesn't exist outside of this, it changes with it, which is why it's different now than in the 1940s.

Something that Marxists would do (or at least used to do) is take something like a Pepsi can and ask what it's made out of materially and where it comes from and who made it and who profited from the production and sale. Now think about that for everything you see in this video.

>>2656326
>>2656356
Political organizations are created for economic reasons. Sometimes those organizations outlive the economic conditions which created them. But organizations like the IDF are still material organizations. The IDF is a real group of people with real guns and not just an idea in people's heads.

"Zionism" is a sprawling aggregate of a number of state apparatuses originally created for various economic reasons. Describing Zionism as simply a cult obscures the internal structure of Zionism. The trouble is that the political economy of Zionism and all the various organizations involved is just really complicated and nobody has actually investigated the full structure of the system.

>>2656326
zionism is only 100% rational when you view it materially. every actor only jas their bank balance in mind. it's been this way since the destruction of Akka in the 1840's by Britain. I'd recommend Andreas Malm's book:
>The Destruction of Palestine is the Destruction of the Earth
it's only 160 pages anon, you could get through it in an a day or two.

>>2657329
You are retarded

>>2657413
zionism is a wholly imperial endeavour. the plan to put a bunch of jews in the holy land came from british christians following the defeat of Ali Pasha in the 1840s, the jews didn't want shit to do with it till much much later.

> sacking of Akka
< motivated by Ali Pasha's egyptian cotton industry competing with new world cotton from the colonies
> founding of a jewish homeland in mandatory palestine
< designed to act as a site of colonial extraction for british oil concerns in the middle east
> american patronage of israel post 60s
< americans wanted control of middle eastern oil
< cost effective way to usurp european colonys in middle east
< helps maintain politically useful slush fund for oil, arms, and mercenary industries

post al aqsa flood the illusion of israeli prosperty has been torn away: their economy is entirely propped up by the west, for the same reasons it always has been: colonial theft. the only beneficiaries have been oil companies like chevron who have assumed management of syrian oilfields and the gaza gasfields. the only way to defeat zionism is to defeat capitalism and colonialism because these struggles are inseparable. capitalism in the metropole cannot function without exploitation in the colonies. marx already addressed this in kapital.

you're a retard for thinking that there is anything new under the sun.

>>2657442
>what about the 1840s
shut the fuck up. try being honest with yourself.

>>2657454
my point is that there have been 180 years of genocide dating back to british mandatory palestine. the economic incentives pre-date the ethno-religious motives. believing the reason that this colony was established by the west, is patronised by the west, and is shielded from international justice by the west is anything but economic requires magical thinking.

it's about oil and gas first and foremost.

we can look at settler psychopaths like daniella weiss, and yeah, nachala and other messianic orgs are fucking death cults. they don't constitute the majority of zionism's base or even rank and file: they are dwarfed in numbers and influence by american evangelicals.

in regards to the question of the ethno-religious motives, your view is reductive, and honestly, a distraction from the economic motives of the actors. this assessment is shared by the PFLP and DFLP. they understand that israel is a proxy for british and american interests. israel isn't swindling the west, they are the west's right hand.

if we kid ourselves that zionism is distinct from capitalism and colonialism then we betray ourselves to repeat the same mistake as fatah.

idiot.

>>2656352
>it's LITERALLY A RELIGIOUS SECT.
Zionism is mainly a etno-nationalist project not a religious one. Zionism is The early zionists were atheists and the hated religious jews for being meek bastards and wanted to build a new modern "hebrew man" in palestine on the lines of 20th century european nationalism. The making of modern hebrew to serve the idea of jewish unbroken 3000 year nationhood and the whole diaspora being one people idea was also seen as a sacrilege by the pious jews, since old-hebrew is a sacred language to them. All the worlds jews as a one single nation is very much a 20th century invention mainly spouted by zionists and nazis. Also the whole "return to the promised land" doesn't sit well with many religious jews, since they see that the time isn't right yet.

If Zionism were a project of religious fanatics or driven by jewish faith then stuff like this contradicts it:
>A Gallup survey in 2015 determined that 65% of Israelis say they are either "not religious" or "convinced atheists"

>>2656326

BEGONE IDEALIST

Zionism is a settler colonial ideology. This means that it arises from the material basis of a settler colonial project, and makes no sense outside this context. These are material problems that it and faces and the ideological solutions

>A colonizer people must be transplanted to a different land populated by indigenous peoples
<Solution: Retarded manufactured history in which the colonizers are actually indigenous/deserve the land
>Wholesale genocide must be carried out
<Solution: The indigenous people aren't human
>Indigenous peoples will resist at every step of the way because their fight is existential
<Solution: They're irrational beasts who cannot be argued with
>All surrounding nations historically related to the indigenous peoples will hate the colonizer
<Solution: Religious nationalism for identitarian cohesion against the external enemy

The ideological superstructure is completely understandable once you grasp that it serves the purpose of converting inhumane extermination into a participatory historical narrative that engenders chauvinistic pride in those that benefit

BEGONE IDEALIST

>>2656326
>You know, I came to the conclusion Zionism cannot have any kind of materialist explanation, because it's not capitalism
Wrong. Read Settlers. Zionism is amerikanism to a slightly lesser degree. Zionism is the direct product of amerikan genocidal settler colonialism. The materialist basis of zionism is amerika or imperialism.

>>2657651
>Wrong. Read Settlers.
Can you reference the page instead of asking me to read an entire book for me to understand your gay ass post?

It's laughable how uninformed the left is on this topic.

>>2656326
Land (and the resources contained wherein) is a material resource. Jews materially benefit from genociding palestineans in order to steal their land, that is their primary material motivation. Israel itself is the most predominant jewish supremacist institution in the world and helps with sustaining jewish supremacism worldwide (censorship laws, deep state ties, covert intelligence operations, soft power, financial support for institutions like the ADL, etc…). The fact that all jews enjoy the "right of return" (the zionist government will allow them to displace palestineans to so they can get free land/housing in a settlement) means all jews materially benefit from this. It is the material interest of the jewish supremacist class that controls institutions like high finance, media, academia, etc to ensure the genocidal zionist project continues unabated; exactly because Israel is the core of the jewish supremacist project that protects their elite privilege as a global elite.

You will never be a real jew. You have no priests, you have no temple. You are an englishman twisted by legalism and demons into a crude mockery of God's Chosen People.

All the "blessings" you get are two-faced and conditional. Behind your backs gentiles mock you. Jehova is disgusted and ashamed of you, your "allies" laugh at your goblinoid appearance behind closed doors.

The Faithful are utterly repulsed by you. Thousands of years of Abrahamic teachings have allowed hebrews to sniff out frauds with incredible efficiency. Even "khazar" jews sound uncanny and gentile-like to a semite. Your banking practices are a dead giveaway. And even if you manage to get a "Shabbos Goy" to come home with you, he'll turn tail and bolt the second he gets a hint of your diseased, perverse, genocidal intentions.

You will never be happy. You wrench out a crooked grin every single morning and tell yourself it's going to be ok. But deep inside you feel the seperation from God creeping up like a Cross, ready to condemn you with the unbearable weight of your sins.

Eventually it will be too much to bear - you won't be able to pay for sex tourism with children, your skin shall turn to dust, your phylactery will shatter, and you will face god's Judgement. Your neighbors will find you, heartbroken at your condemnation but relieved that they will no longer have to bear your evil and sinful ways. They will bury you with a headstone written the latin alphabet, and every passerby for the rest of Eternity will know that a gentile is buried there. Your body wil ldecay and go back to the dust, and all that will remain of your legacy is a soul that is unmistakeably Damned.

This is your fate. This is what you chose. There is no turning back.

Does every religion/ethnic group have the right to show up centuries after being defeated and establish political control by force?

Would you give the Inca People billions of dollars in aid to reestablish and maintain their lost nation?

>>2656326
> it's not capitalism or whatever, it's simply a cult that must dismantled by humanity together
Tony Blair—the democratic socialist who is profoundly obsessed with globalist ID Cards—is now controlling Palestine—YOU are next to be assigned a holocaust QR code from woke Berniebro fascist supporters of Graham Platner or John Fetterman or Zohran Mamdani—beware of the Mark of the Beast—the Antichrist rises

>>2656743
>Israel arrived relatively late
primitive accumulation is such a defining part of capitalism that Marx wrote about it in Kapital volume 1

>>2657036
>Zionism has a history.
>Neo-Assyrian empire: (the first recorded imperialist project)
<Ancient Jews: "wow! We should do this!"
>Plato: (writing a book about a late night conspiracy cabal of pedo slave owners who envisions a PMC technocratic fascist totalitarian state)
<Christian-Jews: "wow! We should do this!"
I don't think the Jeffrey Epstein class intended us to make jokes about this subject when they soyfaced about teaching classics education! lol
https://read.dukeupress.edu/books/book/3307/chapter-abstract/8623288/The-Play-of-Conspiracy-in-Plato-s-Republic?
>Does the Republic depict a conspiracy? The ostensible impetus for Socrates’s discussion of profound political change behind closed doors is a desire to consider the meaning of justice, not to replace a political order with a new one. But the dialogue takes place during the Peloponnesian War, when fears of plots sporadically consumed an eroding Athenian democracy. Arguments about political instability and instances of plotting reverberate throughout the dialogue that takes shape in this suspicious climate. Whether Socrates makes us privy to a conversation about a political world that does not exist or presents us with a strategy for talking about revolution undetected remains unresolved. The chapter argues that Athenian fears of secret power and revolution express themselves in the style and arguments of the Republic and suggests that already at the origins of democratic practice, critics like Plato were concerned with theorizing the subtleties of democratic erosion.

>>2657651
>Zionism is amerikanism to a slightly lesser degree.
Zionists celebrate the same American influenced fascist ideology of the holocaust/depopulation of people in eastern Europe/Russia, NATO is NAZI, it always was
>>2658872
>Can you reference the page instead of asking me to read an entire book
https://readsettlers.org/ch13.html#4

>You know, I came to the conclusion Zionism cannot have any kind of materialist explanation, because it's not capitalism or whatever
It's not just capitalism, but also settler-colonialism which is essentially just a form of primitive accumulation.

>>2656326
>must dismantled by humanity together
>muh popular fronts
Mods permaban this one forever.

Zionism is literally a religion. It's largely the same as most of American Evangelicalism. It's a syncretization of Ethno-Nationalist/Blood and Soil 19th century beliefs, mashed with Judaic justifications. (and Judaism itself is a very blood and soil, tribalistic religion).
It isn't Fascism, but it is a close cousin of Fascism, both are born of the same sort of 19th century Ethno-Nationalist modernism that took root around that time.
Do you think most Evangelicals actually believe in Christian theory and doctrine? Of course not, most are functional agnostics, who worship the Republican Party as Jesus and "Traditional America" as God. Judaism plays into this even more as most Jews basically only view it as a ritualistic-cultural practice. I mean ffs much of Judaism is literally about NOT following their Gods rules in spirit lmao.

Also I will always make the point that Judaism is NOT an Ethno-religion. This is just bullshit made up by Zionists and holds up to zero scrutiny whatsoever.
Judaism wasn't ethnic based in classical times.
Judaism was never ethnic based in medieval times (different Jewish ethnic groups existed from Ethiopians to Chinese to Ashkenazi)
"Jew" in European context = Ashkenazi.
Israel itself in pracitce doesn't view it as a ethno-religion. There is a real heirarchy of ethnicities in Israel with Ashkenazi being the top, Mizrahi trailing far behind, and groups like Ethiopian, Kaifeng etc basically considered LARPers. (despite Ethiopian Jews being arguably one of the earliest and unbroken Jewish groups)
Even the Nazis didn't target all Jews as a ethnicity, but Ashkenazi, other Jewish groups were largely ignored showing even more Jew = Ashkenazi.
If you believe Judaism is a ethnicity due to cultural practice, not all Jews have the same cultural practice (even among ashkenazi, russian saboteur comes from a Western jewish insult against Russian/Eastern European Jews) and if this were true, then if you put up a Christmas Tree surely you are Ethnically Christian. Christianity also holds all that accept Christ are of the same "nation" (ethnicity/people).
Pre-WW2 the idea Jews were all the same was seen as absurd by most Jews.
<there is not a Jewish nation. The members of my family, for instance, who have been in this country for generations, have no sort or kind of community of view or of desire with any Jewish family in any other country beyond the fact that they profess to a greater or less degree the same religion. It is no more true to say that a Jewish Englishman and a Jewish Moor are of the same nation than it is to say that a Christian Englishman and a Christian Frenchman are of the same nation: of the same race, perhaps, traced back through the centuries – through centuries of the history of a peculiarly adaptable race. The Prime Minister and M. Briand are, I suppose, related through the ages, one as a Welshman and the other as a Breton, but they certainly do not belong to the same nation. - Edwin Montagu, arguably the most powerful Jewish political figure in the world at the time, 1917

>>2686248
this but unironically

>>2686258
who says that on this website