You know, I came to the conclusion Zionism cannot have any kind of materialist explanation, because it's not capitalism or whatever, it's simply a cult that must dismantled by humanity together.
Trying to understand Zionism as anything other than a cult will result in failure.
Pretty easy conclusion to come to when you remember that it's LITERALLY A RELIGIOUS SECT.
>>2656326I think the mistake leftists often make is arguing that every single evil in the world exists exclusively because of capitalism. Obviously that can't be the case because evil existed long before capitalism.
The primary foundations of Israel are religious fundamentalist ethnonationalism and western imperialism. The former is what drives Zionism and the latter is what sustains it.
However, this isn't to say that Israel isn't deeply intertwined with capitalist enterprise.
>>2656352Early Zionists were atheists. I don't think it's correct to see as a sect of Judaism, although it's definitely influenced by it.
Plus many Israelis are either secular or atheist, but are still Zionists and support the genocide gleefully.
Imagine if scientology or another deranged cult got a state, this is what Zionism is.
what do you mean no material explanation? they are making a shit load of money, israel is a money printing machine, what do you think people are doing in the middle of the desert? it's all about money and resources.
you have to be retarded to think ideology has something to do with it, ideology is what the zionists use to convince everyone else, not what they truly believe.
>>2656326Jews are the oldest identity on the planet.
You give them a nation it's gonna be fucked by zealots. Imagine if Masons had their own nation state? It wouldn't be that dude the sells pancakes for the PTA fundraiser, it's gonna be some crazy zealot. Its the same with Zionism. Shits just a bad idea.
Most of this board is Zionist.
To be Zionist is to treat 'Israel" as a homogeneous society with no inherent contradictions and class struggle.
And yes it is very much just bourgeois nationalism
>>2656552I support Israel, may they kill many more muslims like syrian jihad muslims and have a very jewish ethnoreligious state.
ISRAEL IF YOU NEED ANY HELP KILLING KATWA CALL ME, I KNOW MANY INDIANS SUCH AS MYSELF WHO WOULD JOIN THE IDF! I SUPPORT YOU SO VERY MUCH ISRAEL.
>>2656326>Zionism cannot have any kind of materialist explanation, because it's not capitalism or whateverSo true!
t. never read a word of Marx
>>2656380Historically the Israelis carved out a niche selling Western-style weapons to all kinds of crazy countries at a lower price point. There's a lot of money in that. Technology grew up on the back of that. Also pharma is a big industry there. It was also a center for diamond cutting / trading which used to be bigger (very Jewish trade). Palestine isn't really known for being rich in resources.
>>2656371There are real religious zealots there and Jews do get into cults (including Scientology) but a lot of them are not really religious. Also the Jewish religion is pretty weird, it's very praxis oriented, that is it's more about what you do like eating kosher and following Jewish law than what you believe really. Like it's about showing up and casting the spells but their traditional figures openly get angry with God and argue with him.
Anyways, there were communists a century ago who opposed Zionism because they saw it as a bourgeois nationalist solution to the Jewish question. Capitalism and nation-states historically rose up together and are intertwined because the nation-state provides a basis for capitalist development while managing the class antagonisms produced by capitalism. You also have to understand the appeal of Zionism to Jews. It's not "right" in "theory" nor does this justify it but the idea is that they have a Jewish state with their own army. But they also oppress the shit out of people at the same time. They're not any more "evil" than any other bourgeois nationalist project. Bourgeois nationalism has been responsible for more wars and death than anything else in history.
>>2656552>To be Zionist is to treat 'Israel" as a homogeneous society with no inherent contradictions and class struggle.No it's not, where did you come up with this? To be a zionist is to believe in a Jewish national homeland in Palestine. How you do or do not perceive Israel to be homogeneous or whatever is completely irrelevant.
>>2656611the last part of the post is really quite important, in general bourgeois nationalist projects are not too different fundamentally to israel when it comes down to it, there's a reason why czechoslovakia (and its successors) still have laws forbidding germans from owning things in it for example, or why czechoslovakia even existed to begin wtih, same with any other constructed nation, when put into similar conditions to israel you'll realize they're all fundamentally the exact same
>>2656703A Jewish 'homeland' (state) is already present you don't have to believe in it. What you have to believe in is le indivisible nation otherwise class struggle will collapse said state
Leftists like Zionists conceal the class reality of Israeli society
>>2656710Whether you believe it should exist or not, that's what Zionism is, the fact that the state exists doesn't change that. This thing about how indivisible said state is, or whatever particularities of it's class character you believe in is just something you made up and irrelevant to what Zionism is.
>>2656705I think one difference in perception is that Israel arrived relatively late. Marxists can have a kind of schema where bourgeois nationalism was progressive in the 19th century (versus the ancien regimes) and then not in the 20th century in which it would be superseded by socialism. Israel arrived then and comes across as a freak because it seems out of time. But socialism got rolled back and there was a historical regression. Most Jews are Zionists now when they a lot of them used to be socialists. It's like historical development wasn't supposed to take this turn but it did and it also succeeded, and leftists have trouble with that because it doesn't fit their teleology.
But history in reality seems like it takes a lot of twists and turns. What you can say is that we live in capitalism and nationalism seems to constantly revive itself as a form of organizing populations under capitalism. Nationalism can also solve problems for some people but it also reproduces domination for others. Also a lot of leftists are essentially nationalists too.
>>2656743that's not necessarily true, some of the later bourgeois revolutions are also praised or at least once were as well, you had the post-ww1 bourgeois revolutions and the like, then the one later, the difference with israel is that it's doing the logical conclusion of any bourgeois nationalist state when it reaches an impasse with the population around it that don't fit it, either deport them, include a small contingent in your government or annihilate them, all of these have been implemented by israel, but likewise have been implemented by other projects like yugoslavia, turkiye, etc
Retards fighting for retarded spooks doesn't disprove materialism, not like it matters because
>>2656380 and also tons of farmland
>>2656718>muh ideology It's just bourgeois nationalism retard.
What's the purpose of nationalism? Theory tells us it is to subordinate (working) class interests under (bourgeois) 'national' interests.
The ideas and superstructure upon which it is built are irrelevant. If you know that, and you don't know anything else, then you know more than if you knew everything else and not that.
>>2656793>muh no argumentNice
>It's just bourgeois nationalism retard.I never denied zionism is a bourgeois nationalist project, that's what the "jewish homeland" refers to. It's also not
just that, it's ethnonationalist colonialism/apartheid, that's what the "in palestine" refers to, its particularities are distinct. Your conflation of all bourgeois states into one undefined blob is not helpful to understanding Zionism as it is, historically as a movement and currently as a national ideology. If I were to say Israel is just a bourgeois nationalist state, then that doesn't differentiate it from any other country on earth, we might as well be talking about denmark or costa rica or whatever, but those countries are not zionist.
>Zionism doesn't have any particularities because… it just doesnt ok??? That's liberalism!!
Why even differentiate it then anon?
>>2656851I really dont care what random trolls are saying on facebook.
>>2656858It's not random trolls. This is how Israelis think
>>2656326>Zionism cannot have any kind of materialist explanation, because it's not capitalism or whatever, it's simply a cult???????
Cults have materialist explanations, your premise is flawed. "Materialist Explanation" does not refer to Zionism explaining itself, but non-Zionists explaining Zionism in terms of its characteristics and context in the real world.
>it's not capitalism or whateverNeither is any other cult. You're confusing base and superstructure. Have a nice day!
>>2656326Mods, ban op from all boards except edu
>>2656872I am aware that zionism is a form of nationalism yes, I don't think it's particularly exceptional either, nazi germany, 1800s america, apartheid south africa are all pretty similar. I am not making any value judgements about zionism's legitimacy, I was merely expressing its particularities, it's not just nationalism, it's ethnonationalism and a colonial project in palestine. Imo those particularities do make it worse than some other forms of nationalism in a basic sense (the apartheid, the largest open air prison in history, etc), but that's just my personal view since you brought it up, not the argument I was making. I have no real interest in the abstract legitimacy of states or whatever
>>2656913>nazi germany, 1800s america, apartheid south africa are all pretty similarthose are exceptional examples, they are not the median of bourgeois nationalism, instances like certain european colonies in africa (like in french algeria, angola and mozambique, italian libya and italian africa as well, and other similar events) are also decently similar to israel, likewise a number of bourgeois nationalists in the americas (outside of the US) are also markedly similar too, in europe, in asia, etc there are very similar formations to israel, past and present which have and continue to exist, israel is precisely not exceptional in comparison to other bourgeois states, that you're right about
>>2656859People from literally every country think like that
Are you trying to imply that cults just spawn out of nothing?
>>2656611>Palestine isn't really known for being rich in resources. it's not about palestine, its about sticking fucking over the middle east
Unique IPs: 20