So called GMiL (Great Moments in Leftism) """cartoons""" have been the
most reactionary slop from the very beginning, and I'm stopped pretending.
Every piece of shit GMiL strip is a fucking disgrace. Let's put aside its abhorrent aesthetics for a moment ("le low budget aesthetics, lol"), and focus on their message.
GMIL CHALLENGE: YOU POST A SINGLE GMIL COMIC AND I WILL TELL YOU HOW IT IS REACTIONARY. IF I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW IT IS REACTIONARY, I WILL PERSONALLY TRANSFER $300 BUCKS TO YOUR BANK ACCOUNT.In any case, this "creative" faglord behind GMiL has been active since April 2013 to May 2018, and since disappeared. It is no stretch of imagination to imagine him becoming a neocon, as these things go. Truly, one would believe that such a "TOTALLY COMMITTED, TRUE-COMMIE" like him would keep producing content until death, but as it turns out he abandoned the entire project for… reasons?!
In any case, this is the webzone where you can get this slop propaganda from:
https://greatmomentsinleftism.blogspot.com/2013/04/I fucking challenge you, yes, YOU, dear poster, to post a SINGLE non-problematic GMiL strip, and if I fail to tear it into pieces, I will transfer moneys.
fo rea, dawg
Stalinist hoe mad lmao
>>2663964>Eastern commie successStop fetishizing losers, western leftist
GMIL is the best thing western leftism has produced in its pathetic history
>>2663980>muh emotional support state is winningOk bro, heard Huawei prolestocks are gonna rise so buy now.
>>2663988Huawei is a worker co-op retard
>>2664000
He did say prolestocks, dumbass
>Muh worker co-op
<Muh Richard Wolff
Social democracy, with extra steps!
>>2663999Ferdinand Lassalle approves!
>>2664000>>2664003>>2664005>>2664010>If cooperative production is not to remain a sham and a snare; if it is to supersede the capitalist system; if the united co-operative societies are to regulate national production upon a common plan, thus taking it under their control, and putting an end to the constant anarchy and periodical convulsions which are the fatality of Capitalist production—what else, gentlemen, would it be but Communism, “possible” Communism?- Marx
In Capital III Marx also viewed worker co-ops as a possible new form of ownership and contrasted it public companies, where private property is sublated negatively, but positively in the former
>>2664023
>what’s happened? Fucking nothing
The Paris Commune? USSR? CHAZ?
>>2664023
>proto zionist smug piece of shit
Masterful bait Haz
>>2664028
they contained many worker co-ops
>>2663964Where are the Soviets nowadays ?
>>2664105And where's your dotp? Must've lasted quite a while longer than the soviets considering the ease with which you dismiss them
>>2663978Explain precisely why left unity is a bad thing
At the present moment the only way forward however you slice it - the only action to be taken - is to build the left which has been destroyed. What to do after the left is built is a pointless question. Left unity good and no amount of felixposting will convince me otherwise
>>2664116Just because they lasted longer then other communist attempts, it doesn't mean that they were a success. Also attacking western leftists when it was eastern leftists that were responsible for the fall of the soviets.
>>2664083Ten years mater and this comic still hits lke a truke
>>2664037Everytime I'm reminded this guy exists, I find out he turned into an even bigger chinlet somehow lmao
>>2664126>Just because they lasted longer then other communist attempts, it doesn't mean that they were a successIt literally does lol, unless you can provide an example that had more success
>>2664131If you're a ziorat maybe. If not, it's actually disgusting and has only turned to coal more as the years have gone by
>>2664141How was the soviet uion not a failure ? They're gone now, they failed. We shouldn't ignore it, but we should learn from it's mistake instead of glorifying it and pretend it succeded.
>>2664148>muh binary on/off switch for successAre you retarded? They lasted longer, by a wide margin, than any other attempt. That makes them by definition more successful. Again, unless you can provide some more successful alternative, but you can't.
>We shouldn't ignore it, but we should learn from it's mistake instead of glorifying it and pretend it succededMeaningless sophistry, you have not learned anything from the "mistakes" of the USSR and I am not "glorifying" them by stating the objective fact that they were the most successful attempt at constructing socialism to date
>>2664146It's a gem because it makes fun of self important narcissists who think supporting Israel propped bourgeois islamists will bring about global change. Those same "anti zionists" glaze China and Russia who recognize Israel and give them material support, it's because it's not about the palestinians or principles, it's all about them, their internet clout and their delusions of grandeur
MLs mad lol
Things leftypolers will do instead of ever touching grass and joining an org:
>>2664248The person doing this is a prole dying so his bourgeoisie could later allow Trump to build casinos where his starving children will work
Total Islamist victory
>>2664263Stalin shooked hands with Hitler
What's your point?
>>2664248>that would make them "self important narcissists"Yes
>>2664299You are a retarded ziocuck
>>2664126>Also attacking western leftists when it was eastern leftists that were responsible for the fall of the soviets.western leftists did nothing but cuck out to imperialist social democrats that had the USSR under siege during all of its existence
>>2664322Eastern leftists collapsed the union for social democracy, and nowadays are all cucked for an Oligarchy. But yeah tell me how that was a success again.
>>2664324the point is the lack of revolution in the imperial core by western leftists is not a neutral thing, they collaborated with the overthrowing of socialism just as much as eastern leftists like gorbachev did
>>2664262They're trapped in Qatari and Iranian furnished apartments signing deals with Trump and multinationals
Gaza still maintains its class structure WITH the ongoing genocide thanks to the armed wing of the bourgeoisie present there.
Shoplifting for your starving child? Better be ready for the vengeance of Allah's warriors
>>2664354You are a ziorat gleefully repeating imperialist zionist talking points about le hamas millionaires in Qatar. Actually neck yourself, disgusting hasbara pig
>>2664441The problem is racial supremacists mass murdering the people they deem animals in their open air prison camp.
>>2664483>racial supremacist I'm an Arab that lives on his labor
>>2664498I don't care about your idpol
Also there is nothing to be said about Israel that hasn't been said about Nazi Germany
We are on leftypol, you can drop the virtue signaling and discuss the failure of the international proletariat to stop genocide and war thanks to opportunists like (You)
>>2664483Yeah. But that's not the primary contradiction. no ammount of moralism will make it be that.
>>2664503How can I be a racial supremacist over my own supposed 'race'… maybe if I was a bourgeois faggot like those you worship but that's not the case.
>>2663956>some ancient webcomic from a fucking BLOGSPOT deserves a thread dedicated to giving it a bad review on a dying imageboardWHO IS THIS FOR? at this point you might as well make a video essay about it
>>2664510Hamas would've won and stopped the genocide and brought global change if only the annarkidies and utlroids supported them more on the internet. Now they lost and their brave leadership is reduced to wipe their tears with dollar bills in their mansion in Qatar (major non-NATO ally of the United States)
>>2663972>implying the revolution in Russia wasn't built on a temporary alliance between Bolsheviks and S-Rs against the provisional government , which ended with infighting and purges>implying the revolution in france wasn't built on a temporary alliance of Girondins and Sans Culottes, which ended with infighting and purges>implying the revolution in Haiti wasn't built on a temporary alliance of enslaves blacks and free mulattoes, which ended with infighting and purgesmany revolutions follow this pattern
>>2664049
god this website sucks
>>2664019i too am tired of the reflexive shitting on co-ops, but I will say we do need to horizontally and vertically integrate them into worker-owned monopolies eventually if we really want to out-compete capitalist monopoly
>>2664263>>2664272Btw, your daddy Stalin also was a supporter of Israel.
In fact he was the very first world leader to recognise the state of Israel. Read your history.
MLs only care about the image and not the substance, which is why we see so much performative uncritical support for anyone and everyone whilst failing to offer any solutions.
MLs fail to recognise that posting how much you support Hamas on twitter is achieving absolutely nothing except stroking your own ego. It's entirely selfish and a cry for praise from anonymous internet users and bots.
That's clearly what the image is saying. MLs can't handle this and cope by strawman-ing that being called out on pointless performative behaviour is actually somehow secretly Zionist propaganda and how Ultroids are so mean.
Of course opposing genocide and Zionism is the correct position but the question of "where do we go next?" should be answered with plans for a one state solution, a secular multi-ethnic Palestine ruled by DoTP - not performative declarations of backing for ethno-nationalist and fundamentalist Islamic forces who are the Palestinian bourgeoisie and will crush the Palestinian proletariat given the opportunity.
Millennial slop for do-nothing nihilists who gave up after Obama was elected.
>>2663956>still making MLs mad a decade laterholy shit lol
>>2663968>>2663972>missing the point this badlyok i cant tell if this is just bait or you have low function autism
>>2664687t. wannabe e-celeb zine slop writer
>>2664020gem
>>2663980>whose fucking labor aristocratic status is being threatenedas opposed to the middle classers who praise china bc of their massive welfare and property rights
>>2664687Bro, you write some shitty blog and make some shitty online streams and call them praxis. You don't even know what "nihilism" or "slop" mean yet act like some authority because of your attention whore tendencies!
>>2663985Then it logically follows that the Western left is complete horseshit, tbh.
>>2664017enlighten me, oh well-read, well-versed, well-educated American übermensch, on the race question. who is the "Multipolarist" choice at the polls, besides Trump?
>>2663962Facts. The alien socialists are real. But we don't need nuclear war, they're already trying to help us.
https://www.lawofone.info/The link is just the full book because they're really bout that shit. They've never tried to make a dime from it.
>le low budget aethetics
>literally just a sketch
Total Twitter Death, and especally Total OP Death in particular.
>>2664825she didn't sell out
>>2664843
Hi, fed.
>>2664837>muh twitterthis is from blogpost zoomie
>>2664515Yes it is dumbfuck, in Gaza economic development is entirely defined by the occupation, internal class contradictions can obviously not be solved with the situation as it is currently
>>2664518I wasn't talking about you retard
>>2664538The comic implies that this is an inherent quality of MLs, not a byproduct of revolution itself
>>2665117the comic isn't wrong
>>2665184You just provided a bunch of examples of non-MLs doing the exact same thing in the previous post dummy
>>2664037Moses Hess was not behind communism
vladimir lenin was not jewish
friedrich engels was not jewish
>>2665521
Water is not wet actually.
>>2663962this post is funnier than the actual strip and really that's the problem with this horrendous humorless crap
>>2665453the anon who provided the examples (me) is not the anon who said it's an inherent quality of MLs. I do not think it is an inherent quality of MLs. I think it's an inherent quality of whoever wins any revolution and needs to solidify power afterwards.
>>2664037Did you think those webcomics stopped, or that they were new in 2017? Webcomics are just comics in a post-newspaper world. Gary Larson is a webcomicist now. (
https://www.thefarside.com/)
Side note: Why does garfield.com redirect to nick.com? Shouldn't it go to (
https://www.gocomics.com/garfield)?
>>2664005>namefagging as your literal reddit usernameIt's so over for altchans holy shit
>>2666395this is a literal inversion of the truth, chruchill saw the fascists as a useful stick against the communists, not the other way around. let them revise. they'll fuck up again.
>>2667032he's literally justifying that they/them mugger comic lol
>>2665465
> Lasalle's balls being bigger than his cheeks
Kek
>>2664146it's funny because your support of hamas is purely internet cheerleading, not material weapons
>>2667408Even Palestinian refugees themselves are critical of Hamas and only clung to them out of sheer desperation, meanwhile losers like you do all this embarrassing performative bullshit online. And when all else fails, you can always call your detractors zionists!
>>2664083Made in 2014 and still relevant a decade later.
>>2667419>Even Palestinian refugees themselves are critical of Hamas and only clung to them out of sheer desperationPalestinians, like all people, have a wide range of beliefs and opinions, especially on highly contentious groups like Hamas. But by and large they support them, especially in comparison with Fatah/PA, who are seen as collaborators/traitors. You clearly don't know shit about this man, plus you're gleefully repeating ziorat arguments, are you gonna bring up the anti-hamas protestors next? The only one who's being performative here is you. As if your detached indifference to the people resisting genocidal racists who imprison and massacre them for over 70 years, makes you better than anyone else. Actually kill yourself you colossal faggot retard
>you can always call your detractors zionists!Denounce the opponents of zionism and get called a zionist. Shocker!
>Made in 2014 and still relevant a decade later.If you've got some kind of issue with killing ziorats sure. Otherwise it looks like filth
>>2667422PFLP are the predominant Marxist Leninist organization in Gaza. Unless you have some other group that we should look at, please shut up and kill yourself
>>2667434الجبهة الشعبية اضحوكة لا علاقة لها بالصراع الطبقي او الشيوعية منذ نشؤها كحركة قومية مبنية على التعاون الطبقي الى تحولها الى بيدق بيد الاسلاميين والامبرياليين مؤخراً وهو تطور لا مهرب منه لهكذا نزعة انتهازية
حتى الحركات الشيوعية الحقيقية في العالم العربي ليس لها اتصال بهم انما تتعاون مع النقابات المستقلة في فلسطين لغاية التنظيم المشترك
>>2667435>PFLP are the predominant Marxist Leninist organization in Gaza. Unless you have some other group that we should look at, please shut up and kill yourselfYou saying "nuh uh" doesn't change this faggot
>>2667439>الجبهة الشعبية الليبراليين الوحيدين في غزة اتفق
>>2667444>Nuh Uh x2>Still can't name another group>Thus will shut up and kill himselfI accept your concession
>>2667434>especially in comparison with Fatah/PA, who are seen as collaborators/traitors.Calling them traitors would be ceeding to nationalism. I just call them socdems.
>As if your detached indifference to the people resisting genocidal racists who imprison and massacre them for over 70 yearsMartyr fetishism, classic "western leftism" as multipolaroids would say, no? Your moralism prevents you of makign useful analysis. You don't learn. It was "national liberation of opressed peoples" that created Israel. Seems like class colaboration always ends up with ruthless capitalist states, I wonder why?
>>2667454>Calling them traitors would be ceeding to nationalism. I just call them socdems.I didn't call them anything, I described how the palestinians generally see them. I don't care what you performatively call them, you are a mental midget
>Martyr fetishism, classic "western leftism" as multipolaroids would say, no? Your moralism prevents you of makign useful analysisNo, I simply called out your projection with regards to being performative. Martyrdom fetishism has nothing to do with it, but nice buzzword cope lol.
>It was "national liberation of opressed peoples" that created IsraelYeah in somebody else's country retard, with people already living there, as a colonialist project developed by europeans lmao, if the palestinian cause was about forming an ethnostate in Sudan, you might have a point, but as it stand you just seem like a retard. But I'm glad you brought this up because it neatly gets to the crux of this "conversation", your equivocation of the people living under apartheid, occupation and colonialism and the people enacting that on them. Basically you are saying "Neither palestine nor Israel", which just means "I'm pro Israel", if you can't see why it means that, you are actually severely retarded and there's no point continuing this conversation.
>Seems like class colaboration always ends up with ruthless capitalist states, I wonder why?In this case it hasn't led to any state tho, since the palestinians lack one. Do you have anything other than meme arguments you read on reddit? Are you capable of forming coherent thoughts on your own?
>>2666428>pic 3let dude cook. that's a good method
>>2667765>>2667792>No more arguments I accept your surrender, now learn your lesson and don't go around condemning hamas any further
>>2668862I critically supported hamas when they blew up israelis, there's no reason to support them now
>>2667462>Yeah in somebody else's country<implying it would be good if it was in "their own country"what did the great national liberation of yugoslavia or czechoslovakia lead to? what did the amazing national liberation of azeris lead to? at best a corrupt union, at worst genocidal maniacs who have nationalist chauvinism injected in them who use this to massacre and annihilate those who are not of their preferred ethnic group
>>2668864A bit wishy washy of you anon. There is a ceasefire in place. Which Israel can break with impunity, but hamas cannot.
>>2668867It's not universally good or bad anon jesus, If national liberation is based in a colonized or subjegated people, frees them from their economic subjegation by foreign powers then the outcome is a liberated people with some amount of sovereignty, that's preferable over them being colonial subjects/slaves/untermensch. If it's about ethonationalist seperatism, it's not good. The point being that doing national liberation in somebody else's country, claiming it for yourself cannot possibly lead to any positive/progressive outcome. That's not national liberation positive or negative, it's just colonialism, it is premised in expulsion and racial supremacy, rather than a desire to be free from subjegation in your own home.
>>2668879>It's not universally good or bad anon jesuspoint is that it's worshipped despite the fact all it does is create the conditions for an ethnostate or a rapidly increasing genocidal population
>If national liberation is based in a colonized or subjegated people, frees them from their economic subjegation by foreign powers then the outcome is a liberated people with some amount of sovereigntythey are not liberated if they are still under capitalism, or the "AES" as you call it, neither are they freed, just put under looser chains, and this is not a guarantee either, as you should know
>The point being that doing national liberation in somebody else's country, claiming it for yourself cannot possibly lead to any positive/progressive outcomeno different to all of what i mentioned, all of those were done by that population for their own purposes, and it either broke down (czechoslovakia) or led to a genocidal series of wars (yugoslavia and azerbaijan), nothing else can realistically be expected, even in the best examples of it (algeria, indonesia, india, DR congo) they either lead to a civil war, a genocidal dictatorship, or a normal capitalist state, likewise national liberation is not necessary in the modern era
>>2668869You're right, countries do not exist. Countries are kayfabian patsies.
>>2668882Nations are abstractions retard, there is nothing inherently tieing you to a piece of land aside from muh feelingz and a worthless paper by an org founded a century ago that says so.
>>2664726>>2664775I do more IRL work than you know, but sure. Keep coping. You have no argument.
>>2668887>There is nothing inherently tieing you to a piece of land aside from muh feelingzyes, im sorry that being attached to a land where everyone i know and love lives, where i lost my virginity, where i went to school, etc etc, is just stupid "muh feelingz". And the libtards who can't even imagine being attached to their land and their local community is also the ones signalling about how much they love the abstract "fellow workers" who they have never meet or talk with
>>2668880>point is that it's worshipped It's not
>all it does is create the conditions for an ethnostate or a rapidly increasing genocidal populationIt doesn't, the political conditions that predominantly give rise to ethnostates and genocide are obviously found in colonialism and imperialism, not national liberation against those things
>they are not liberated if they are still under capitalism, or the "AES" as you call it, neither are they freed, just put under looser chains,Yeah that's what I said lol, it's progressive compared to what came before. They're not totally free from all oppression and capitalism and such, but they are freer than they were before, their chains loosened
>no different to all of what i mentioned, all of those were done by that population for their own purposes, and it either broke down (czechoslovakia) or led to a genocidal series of wars (yugoslavia and azerbaijan)It is different, as those people already lived there and they didn't need to go colonize some other place they hadn't lived in for centuries/millennia. Regardless Id hardly call what happened in those cases to be national liberation, liberation from who? Themselves? I guess you could say the russians in the case of Azerbaijan, maybe the Serbs in YS? Even then it hardly applies and seems to me to just be an appropriation of the relatively positively viewed natlib movements of the past
>nothing else can realistically be expected, even in the best examples of it (algeria, indonesia, india, DR congo) they either lead to a civil war, a genocidal dictatorship, or a normal capitalist state, likewise national liberation is not necessary in the modern eraThe same arguments could be made for almost all revolutionary movements/moments, including largely socialist/marxist ones. Success is never a guaranteed, but the need for such changes can be estimated by their impact on/relation towards the global structure of imperialism.
>>2668897> the political conditions that predominantly give rise to ethnostates and genocide are obviously found in colonialism and imperialism, not national liberation against those things this is patently false tbh. One can see the tutsi genocide in Rwanda emerging specifically through radicalized left wing section of hutu intelligentsia who associated tutsis with both the feudal aristocracy of the past and the comprador nobility of latter times, basically giving blank check to ethnicity-based cleansing framed through class struggle. You can see this in India too, incident of sectarian calcification flared up precisely as colonial power weakened, the genocides in Armenia and Balkans (the former against Christians and the latter against Muslims) happened at the heel of national liberation movements against the Ottomans. This is because liberation against colonialism isn't just dismantlement of colonial subjectivity but its replacement with other forms of politicized subjectivity; as in once a nation is liberated from colonial domination they need to define an identity for themselves, which often is directed against other nearby groups whose inclusion into the political body is seen as an artificial project by the colonial empire
>>2668899for example, let us took at national liberation in India. Why should a hindutva nationalist who supported the national liberation be compelled to accept an inclusive national identity that included Muslims and Christians? He could as well say that these people are foreigners and the only reason why they are included in the idea of India to begin with is because the British made it that way, hence equating secularism with colonial mentality that denied an organic national belonging. This is not a made up hypothetical, this is an actual argument pushed up by people like J Sai Deepak
>>2668899>>2668901Fair enough, I was more thinking about the conditions that set all these things up in the first place. But you are correct
>>2668897>liberation from who? Themselves?czechoslovaks from austrians, later the nazis, yugoslavs from the ottomans and austrians, azeris from russians
>It doesn't, the political conditions that predominantly give rise to ethnostates and genocide are obviously found in colonialism and imperialism, not national liberation against those things here's the problem with this line of thinking, if that was actually true then the number of genocides after the national liberation should be lower, obviously you can see yugoslavia as an example, yugoslavia did not become a bastion of liberation for south slavs, but ostensibly a form of serbian chauvinism, this was true even after the KPJ became the leaders of the state, however there were now two yugoslavisms, one that was serbian chuavinist in nature, and now one that valued all nations, all this did was charge the population with nationalist thoughts, and when this government had done dwindled in strength, the nationalism merely became more secessionist, leading to the horrific yugoslav wars of the 90s, in algeria despite the nearly 70 year absence of french colonial rule, it speaks french more than it ever did as a colony, india now has more hindu chauvinism than it did as a colony, chauvinism that is creating genocidal conditions
>Yeah that's what I said lol, it's progressive compared to what came before. They're not totally free from all oppression and capitalism and such, but they are freer than they were before, their chains loosened the point is that looser chains is not actual progress, nor is it simply "progressive" for this, it is nominally an improvement, but progress is when this is rid of, not simply loosened
>The same arguments could be made for almost all revolutionary movements/moments, including largely socialist/marxist ones. Success is never a guaranteed, but the need for such changes can be estimated by their impact on/relation towards the global structure of imperialism.a problem i noted here is that imperialism hasn't meaningfully weakened after the national liberations of the 20th century, if anything it's gotten stronger, in the eyes of much of the population there, marxism is dead and has been for 30 years, nationalist developmentalism with the formations of new blocs are the future
>>2668899exactly the sort of point i was making, simply attributing "colonialism" as the point of origin is worse than nothing, it rids you of understanding the structures that came after, rather than before, in myanmar for example, is it the result of a foreign colonization that the country is split amongst ultranationalist ethnic separatist lines vs an ultranationalist, hypermilitarist side? at best only partly in the case of the tatmadaw, as they had risen out of the japanese collaborationist army, but the collaborationists in myanmar joined sides with the japanese specifically against british colonialism
>>2668914the problem with this line of thinking is that it imagines colonialism as being the root cause of these emotions rather than many of them emerging from them displacing or removing the colonial influences
>>2668950>czechoslovaks from austrians, later the nazis, yugoslavs from the ottomans and austriansOk, so would you say those liberations were a negative or positive development? Especially with regards to the nazis and austrians I would say it's the latter, the ottomans being a more complicated can of worms
>here's the problem with this line of thinking, if that was actually true then the number of genocides after the national liberation should be lower, obviously you can see yugoslavia as an example, yugoslavia did not become a bastion of liberation for south slavs, but ostensibly a form of serbian chauvinism, this was true even after the KPJ became the leaders of the state, however there were now two yugoslavisms, one that was serbian chuavinist in nature, and now one that valued all nations, all this did was charge the population with nationalist thoughts, and when this government had done dwindled in strength, the nationalism merely became more secessionist, leading to the horrific yugoslav wars of the 90s, in algeria despite the nearly 70 year absence of french colonial rule, it speaks french more than it ever did as a colony, india now has more hindu chauvinism than it did as a colony, chauvinism that is creating genocidal conditionsThat's fair, I agree and again I don't think "national liberation" is inherently progressive, it is dependent on the context in which it takes place. To bring it back to Gaza, until national liberation takes place, no economic or social progression can be achieved at all, they will simply remain effective prisoners of the israelis on the basis of their race or be exterminated entirely.
>the point is that looser chains is not actual progress, nor is it simply "progressive" for this, it is nominally an improvement, but progress is when this is rid of, not simply loosenedThis is a bit semantics imo, the difference between viewing progression as a process towards and an arrival at a destination. Tight>looser>loose or tight > loose
>a problem i noted here is that imperialism hasn't meaningfully weakened after the national liberations of the 20th century, if anything it's gotten stronger, in the eyes of much of the population there, marxism is dead and has been for 30 years, nationalist developmentalism with the formations of new blocs are the futureI mean, I think that the formation of those blocks does weaken imperialism and that the view of marxism being dead is something that happened regardless of the successes and failures of particular natlib struggles. Most prominently due to the fall of the soviet union, I mean you can get into how that was actually natlib as well, but imo it would be a bit disingenuous
>>2668951>the problem with this line of thinking is that it imagines colonialism as being the root cause of these emotions rather than many of them emerging from them displacing or removing the colonial influencesSo you think them remaining colonies would be better or? What's the implication here? Imo yes, the colonialism is what predisposes however the particular tensions of the place play out, because that is the framework under which they develop. Even in your own argument, they emerge as a result of the process of removing colonial influence, which could only happen as a direct result of colonialism itself. Again, this line of argument makes it seem like you actually think remaining a colonial subject is the progressive thing.
>>2669021>So you think them remaining colonies would be better or?it really depends on the governance and how they did it, you don't really see things like that in countries like vietnam or kenya, but you do in most other examples (just for your information the difference is that kenya mostly became independent mostly without armed struggle, and vietnam mostly violently)
>>2669021>itself. Again, this line of argument makes it seem like you actually think remaining a colonial subject is the progressive thingonly if you think that's the argument rather than "national liberation is more often reactionary than it is a progressive movement, and is fetishized without understanding the full gravity of it"
>Ok, so would you say those liberations were a negative or positive development? Especially with regards to the nazis and austrians I would say it's the latter, the ottomans being a more complicated can of wormsi wouldn't define either as particularly positive developments, the iron was hot to abolish the individual reactionary constructs of "czech" or "slovak", "serbian" or "croatian", which would be progressive, neither happened, i'll also say now that the ottomans were decidedly the worse force compared to the austrians, not a mixed bag, as the austrians had allowed limited forms of parliamentary representation, the ottomans ruled by military rule although were better than other alternatives
>That's fair, I agree and again I don't think "national liberation" is inherently progressive, it is dependent on the context in which it takes place. To bring it back to Gaza, until national liberation takes place, no economic or social progression can be achieved at all, they will simply remain effective prisoners of the israelis on the basis of their race or be exterminated entirely. this is about the only condition in which national liberation could be defended in, as it is the basis of actually becoming something, although for the most part it's fantasy given utter annihilation and deportation seems more likely
>I mean, I think that the formation of those blocks does weaken imperialism and that the view of marxism being dead is something that happened regardless of the successes and failures of particular natlib struggles. Most prominently due to the fall of the soviet union, I mean you can get into how that was actually natlib as well, but imo it would be a bit disingenuous the point is sort of that national liberation struggles haven't really lead to much class struggle rather than simple nationalist developmentalism
>>2669035>it really depends on the governance and how they did it>national liberation is more often reactionary than it is a progressive movement, and is fetishized without understanding the full gravity of itIdk anon, this does sound like you prefer these movements didn't happen in the majority. That it was a step backwards, ie reactionary and that thus the progressive thing would have been to remain colonial subjects. Im going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it's just indifference.
>this is about the only condition in which national liberation could be defended in, as it is the basis of actually becoming something,It's really not too dissimilar to other colonial projects. Just worse in a lot of ways and lasting longer into the present. Imo, without the decolonial and national liberation movements that happened, we'd be seeing a lot more of what is happening in Palestine across the world.
>although for the most part it's fantasy given utter annihilation and deportation seems more likelyUnfortunately so. Still, the future is not set and maximalist positions should be taken to prevent this, exclaiming support for organizations like hamas is the least of it. Especially when considering the predominant view of such organizations in the imperial core
>the point is sort of that national liberation struggles haven't really lead to much class struggle rather than simple nationalist developmentalismImo that's part of the class struggle, which is a tremendously slow and protracted process
>>2669062>Idk anon, this does sound like you prefer these movements didn't happen in the majority. That it was a step backwards, ie reactionary and that thus the progressive thing would have been to remain colonial subjects. Im going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it's just indifference. i can see how you'd get that from it, it's just not what i'm saying whatsoever, i suggest you keep that benefit of the doubt
>It's really not too dissimilar to other colonial projects. Just worse in a lot of ways and lasting longer into the present. Imo, without the decolonial and national liberation movements that happened, we'd be seeing a lot more of what is happening in Palestine across the world.partially true, most other nations were gaining consciousness that they didn't need national liberation first, i mean an obvious example would be the bangladeshis, but in the case of palestine it happened precisely because there wasn't really a bourgeois nationalist movement strong enough in the arab world at that point, and there wasn't really a palestinian identity in the modern sense, it only really emerged after 1948 where as before it was an imposed identity from the british, and then it became the identity they had adopted as a result of the israeli colonization, though obviously it isn't really exceptional in the broader sense, it is exceptional in the modern sense
>Unfortunately so. Still, the future is not set and maximalist positions should be taken to prevent this, exclaiming support for organizations like hamas is the least of it. Especially when considering the predominant view of such organizations in the imperial corei would say a problem with this is that position hasn't really led to much good either, hence why alternative positions have been taken on this issue
>Imo that's part of the class struggle, which is a tremendously slow and protracted processit's not really that slow, protracted certainly, the whole problem (and part of the argument i'm making) is that these don't really stop capitalism's natural development and decelerate the global class struggle, as the stability of the world system of capitalism has only really increased since the 1960s rather than decelerate as was the expectation of the time, we have to take a new perspective is what i'm saying, not just relying on the positions of long dead men and women
>>2669068>i would say a problem with this is that position hasn't really led to much good either, hence why alternative positions have been taken on this issueAnon, idk what you're thinking of, but the maximalist position on this issue is not exactly what i'd call a commonly held one. Only recently has any sort of hard line emerged at a larger scale and even then it's far from normalized enough to effect anything substantially.
>it's not really that slow, protracted certainly, the whole problem (and part of the argument i'm making) is that these don't really stop capitalism's natural development and decelerate the global class struggle, as the stability of the world system of capitalism has only really increased since the 1960s rather than decelerate as was the expectation of the time,I understand what you're saying, but we're getting into very subjective territory here. On the one hand economic development progresses, imperialism is strengthened, on the other hand internal stability is decreasing, trust and understanding in liberal institutions is waning, old structures are losing their edge. I find it hard to blame the existence and particular successes and failures of natlib struggles for the stability of the capitalist system. You might say they didn't do anything to prevent it or be outright facilitating it, but that's not a known factor and similar claims could be made about basically everything. You play with the cards you're dealt and sometimes, in our case basically always, you're dealt a bad hand.
>we have to take a new perspective is what i'm saying, not just relying on the positions of long dead men and womenSuch as?
Unique IPs: 49