A dictatorship of the proleteriat will never work because a system where the proleteriat has no say and doesnt choose their own leader will result in the government of a socialist country not actually being beholden to the proleteriat at all. And thus has no incentive to or even need to act in their interest.
50 posts and 8 image replies omitted.Reddit tier thread
Kys my man
>>2666388Marxists dont want to accept that the only way a DOTP can work is by organizing horizontally, just like anarchism. They want to believe in a "vanguard party" because that's how they feel like supreme leaders
>proleteriat has no say and doesnt choose their own leader This never happens anywhere because the pleb is retarded and cannot vote in their own interest. "elect your own dictator" never worked and probably never will. Have you noticed how the only time "they have a say" is in situations where the "have a say" is AGAINST someone? Like shareholders of a company voting against the employees and other numerous examples. It's easy to decide against oneself, it's harder to decide what's best for oneself. I guess this is the nature of entropy etc.
>tldrThis thread is meaningless under any time and place.
>>2665408This is the correct take.
Fake and gay thread.
>>2666845Lower stage communism, numb nuts
>>2666870Marx:
>Between capitalist and communist society there lies the period of the revolutionary transformation of the one into the other. Corresponding to this is also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat.<Critique of the Gotha Programme, IVLenin:
>Socialism means the abolition of classes. The dictatorship of the proletariat has done all it could to abolish classes. But classes cannot be abolished at one stroke. And classes still remain and will remain in the era of the dictatorship of the proletariat. The dictatorship will become unnecessary when classes disappear. <Economics And Politics In The Era Of The Dictatorship Of The ProletariatRead the book lil vro
>>2666915Why not post the full quote and its context?
>And so, in the first phase of communist society (usually called socialism) […] Now, there are no other rules than those of “bourgeois law". To this extent, therefore, there still remains the need for a state, which, while safeguarding the common ownership of the means of production, would safeguard equality in labor and in the distribution of products. The state withers away insofar as there are no longer any capitalists, any classes, and, consequently, no class can be suppressed.Lenin here is talking about lower stage communism (the title of the section) where no classes exist and the state has functionally ceased to exist as there are no classes to suppress. You'd also notice by the obvious framing that Lenin is theorizing, he is not talking about the USSR, which he didn't shy from calling capitalist, but rather a distant society beyond the dotp.
>"We are far from having completed even the transitional period from capitalism to socialism. We have never cherished the hope that we could finish it without the aid of the international proletariat. We never had any ilusions on that score, and we know how difficult is theroad that leads from capitalism to socialism. But it is our duty to say that our Soviet Republic is a socialist republic because we have taken this road and our words will not be empty words"<Third All-Russia Congress I often use the passage you misquoted to prove my point hilariously enough
>>2666915Also since the passage you quoted says no classes exist in lower stage communism that explicitly means it is NOT dotp hence
>>2666906
>classes still remain and will remain in the era of the dictatorship of the proletariat >>2666948>Lenin here is talking about lower stage communism (the title of the section) where no classes exist and the state has functionally ceased to exist as there are no classes to suppress<"But the state has not yet completely withered away, since the still remains the safeguarding of 'bourgeois law which sanctifies actual inequality. For the state to wither away completely, complete communism is necessary."
complete communism<law". To this extent, therefore, there still remains the need for a state, which, while safeguarding the common ownership of the means of production, would safeguard equality in labor and in the distribution of productsFor additional clarity , while he does speak of a transitional state, he alludes to the continued existence of the dotp into lower stage communism
>Lenin here is talking about lower stage communism (the title of the section) where no classes exist and the state has functionally ceased to exist as there are no classes to suppress. You'd also notice by the obvious framing that Lenin is theorizing, he is not talking about the USSR, which he didn't shy from calling capitalist, but rather a distant society beyond the dotp<But it is our duty to say that our Soviet Republic is a socialist republic because we have taken this road and our words will not be empty words">>2666956complete communism >>2666958>>2666959You're unable to form a cohesive response. The most I got out of the sporadic quotes fueled by an underlying conflation of dotp with lower stage communism (which is the subject of debate) is that you're not aware of the Marxist definition of a state. The state is a byproduct of class society, in a classless society (lower stage) the state functionally ceases to be, it retracts into a regulatory tool for production and distribution until its last remaining structures are abolished by the principal 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs'.
This is different from dotp, which is a state in the proper sense we know, a tool of class suppression by its very definition. Lenin definitively settled any doubt you have by plainly stating that classes won't be abolished until dotp is abolished.
A dictatorship of the proletariat by definition cannot exist in a classless society.
>>2666976>>2666976>Lenin definitively settled any doubt you have by plainly stating that classes won't be abolished until dotp is abolished. Lenin said it exists into the lower stage, so no
>>2666986Well, Lenin wasn't retarded to claim a classless society can have a dictatorship of a class. He only stated the opposite
>>2666906 and so now retards who just discovered this have to cope about it instead of reading theory.
The proletariat doesn’t exist, even if it did, it has no way to resolve disputes among itself or govern, the party doesn’t work, unions don’t work, nothing works
>>2666990Lenin has already spoken of partial communism.
>For the state to wither away completely, complete communism is necessary >"classes still remain and will remain in the era of the dictatorship of the proletariat"
>"(in lower stage communism) The state withers away insofar as there are no longer any capitalists, any classes, and, consequently, no class can be suppressed."
<conclusion A: dotp isn't lower stage hence no classes to suppress, the LS 'state' is purely an economic tool not a political entity.
<conclusion B: Lenin is a schizo
MLs would rather make Lenin sound like an incoherent retard contradicting his theory all the time (relatable) rather than take the L
>>2667007>>2666993>lower stage (unrelated to dotp which literally cannot exist in this society per Lenin and you couldn't prove otherwise 10 replies later) will be superceded by higher stage I agree!!!! ❤️
>>2667010Or the party just chooses to liquidate itself and the bourgeois come back
>>2667010Only possible among hunter gathering societies
>>2667015It’s never going to happen
>>2667021Doesn’t matter, we’ve had the entire 19th and 20th centuries that proved this theory wrong
>>2667025If the proletariat as Marx theorized existed, this would be in their interests, they don’t, so this won’t happen
>compete communism
>>2667027The states that Lenin founded, both direct and indirect are his fault, their failures are his failures
>>2667031Great Lenin theory
Bumping this thread after I demolished ML mythology and ended their meme movement forever
communism isnt about empowering the working class, its about empowering radical intellectuals, who make up the entire population of the vanguard party
>>2666845I didn't say that a DotP was a new mode of production. I said that a state being a class dictatorship has nothing to do with its structure or form and everything to do with the mode and relations of production that it defends and maintains.
>>2670580>the dotp purpose is to defend the capitalist mode of production So true!
>>2665300>A dictatorship of the proleteriatis a system where the proletariat dictates
> a system where the proleteriat has no say is not a dictatorship of the proletariat
>>2665300>dictatorship of the proleteriat will never work because a system where the proleteriat has no say and doesnt choose their own leader will result in the government of a socialist country not actually being beholden to the proleteriat at all.Then it isnt a dictatorship of proletariat.
>>2666321are you illiterate? the image does not say workers "voted for gorby and social democracy"
it said there was a referendum held on preserving the USSR. soviet citizens voted in favor of preserving the USSR. the revisionist clique who took control of the CPSU dissolved the USSR against the wishes of the soviet people.
>>2670615Wtf are you talking about?
>>2665583A state is necessary to develop socialism, yes.
Whether the state could eventually be abolished once productive forces and society are sufficiently developed is an argument for a future time.
>>2665976To be fair Donald Trump has never gotten a majority of the vote at any point. Even when he "won the popular vote" in 2024 (after losing it in 2016 and 2020) it was a plurality (sub-50%), not a majority. Then you have to factor in the massive amount of people who are eligible to vote but do not.
>>2670755very illustrative of your contention anon
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