/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

This is why there will never be a revolution in the US or Europe. The surveillance systems and repressive apparatuses are too extensive. Revolution inherently requires an unstable stable. Besides, the working class on the imperial core are comparatively better off and has too much to lose. Third-worldists are right. True revolutions happen in the peripheries, not the core.

>>2678321
I don't think the takeaway is "be a useless fatalist" I think it's that you should learn from historical experience and make an underground party that's more than adventurist larp, even if it's legal to make a liberal NGO with red flags. The third world in the modern day either way is filled with "liberal democracies" like India so this trap has much broader implications than purely first world shit.

>>2678324
Like seriously, can third worldists please identify the major third world communist revolutions in the 21st century? Pink tide social democracy, isolated guerillas, and CIA color revolutions don't count.

>>2678330
China. Vietnam. North Korea. Cuba. Venezuela. Nicaragua. Eritreia. etc…

>>2678344
The Chinese Revolution happened in 2007? Holy shit! What does Mao think about Trump shitting himself on live TV?

The problem is clearly just as applicable to the third world. Brazil, India, Indonesia, Mexico, Argentina, all show no signs of being imminently swept away by the red tide of Marx and Lenin. There's clearly a structural barrier, and it might be that liberal democracy is a very tough nut to crack due to the irresistible pull of parliamentary cretinism. Best outcomes in the third world in the 21st century in socialism arising in new countries is just some socdem party winning an election and then occasionally slightly hardening themselves against the CIA.

>>2678330
Does the Nepalese Civil War count?

>>2678358
In most third-world countries our police and surveillance systems are extremely underfunded and underdeveloped. Conviction rates are low and many crimes go unpunished due to lack of proper investigations. Whereas in a place like the US increasingly people live in a 1984-type surveilance panopticon where hardcore revolutionary groups get busted by feds without anyone even noticing. It's a lot easier and more feasible to have a radicalized underground movement that can topple a government in the third-world in general.

>>2678363
It was a glowie anti-communist orange revolution.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgZXwXIVZTk

>>2678366
That's the 2025 Gen Z Protest not the 2000s Civil War. I only asked because the various Maoist and ML groups formed a parliamentary republic after the Civil War.

>>2678364
It's a fair point to be sure. A revolution probably would be easier in the third world. But it also seems like in the third world, the age of peasant guerillas toppling the state is feeling a bit dated. The world is increasingly urbanized, full formed capitalist, with a liberal political character even for the third world. That forces us to turn to successful instances of predominantly urban communist revolutions, like Lenin, and the picture one immediately gets from reviewing the history of how that succeeded is that the RSDLP was underground, illegal, and conspiratorial, and not an above ground legally sanctioned party. First worlders probably grasp the need for underground conspiratorial tactics without idiotic adventurism even less, so this line of criticism is focused mainly on them.

>>2678370
I also assume this place is heavily Westerner given how popular the usapol and related threads are. People should organize where they are even if it's not perfect.

>>2678317
Looking at how the US communists acted at their height prior to the red scare also proves all of this. They had extensive organizations, from militant unions to armed workers to mutual aid societies to communist colleges - all above ground and never willing to cross the line of denying the state's legitimacy and fighting for their own state. Not even a single failed attempt. And then when the government decided to crack down they just took it and most of their connection to the working class was dissolved, leaving them to take all kinds of slander and become incredibly unpopular. Though it probably also has to be taken into account that the US has probably never had amazing conditions for revolution. While we had an extremely oppressed proletariat, they were divided by race, and large portions of the country were agricultural, but not as landless peasants, rather landed settlers. So long as there was the ability to bribe so much of white america there wasn't a real chance at revolution.

Now that we're getting to a point where revolution might be possible, we're saddled with the baggage of parties that have no real desire to conduct revolution and revolutionary theory that has no clue how to deal with a strong state. The leninist insurrection model of revolution relies heavily on spontaneity of class conscious workers, which is only helpful when the state is already on the brink of military collapse and where the worker and peasant origin draftee army can be swayed to the side of a revolutionary surge that momentarily has momentum and popularity. The maoist model is based on a state already in civil war, with the dominant aspect being a regular army armed and aided by a neighboring country that has to deal with the contradictions that arise from violently taking control of villages, in a rural feudal country. The US model of revolution needs to learn from both of these but it won't be able to blindly mimic any model. Communists for the large part have been content to not address this question at all, vaguely supporting the leninist model (since it requires the least planning and risk - in their minds at least, since they don't even follow the real methods of the bolsheviks but instead a sanitized version that only focuses on unions and spontaneous armed struggle and ignores the preparation of the red guard and the deep neighborhood ties that the bolsheviks had).

>>2678366
Of course the most smug firstie is the most ignorant firstie.

>>2678317
Some thing we'll need to focus on uniquely in the US:
- divorcing the working class from the bourgeoisie by boycotting bourgeois news, entertainment, and social media (and replacing it with out own news, recreation clubs, neighborhood social events, socialist owned social media, etc.)
- active counterinsurgency style suppression of terrorist white christian nationalists that will be increasingly mobilized if we begin being successful against open authorities like cops and the military (which would require creating our own pervasive intelligence apparatus)
- tunnels and underground facilities to counter surveillance and US air superiority

Structure of revolutionary organizations:
>communist center (exclusive to ideological communists, for the purpose of studying social conditions, strategizing revolution, and developing policy to further our goals)
<revolutionary organization (armed militants and activists. Carrying out strategy and policy of communist center. Engaged in all practical activities, which are too myriad to list here. No ideological requirement in order to harness people's desire to do something with least friction possible)
>fronts (all times/places where people come together and socialize. The purpose of activity in these is to identify advanced, intermediate, and backwards, recruit the advanced, educate the intermediate, exert pressure for the campaign to divorce our class from the bourgeoisie, and engage in mass line and preliminary social investigation. Fronts should be opened and pushed ideally until they cover 100% of the working class population)

Other considerations:
- grow armed capacity in proportion to popular logistical support and avoid any confrontation until we can engage with initiative at a constant tempo; be prepared that once fighting is commenced we'll have to transition to more demands on supporters and discipline of armed forces, e.g. housing them in a single neighborhood that can be surveilled by us so we they be picked off individually by raids, fortification of safehouses, tunnels connecting them
- armed struggle will mainly be urban guerrilla warfare until very late in the struggle
- consolidate wins by annihilating the most backwards within the working class; moving from human to technological surveillance; creating deeply buried (>100 ft underground) facilities for producing arms, sheltering civilians, etc. along with expanding system of tunnels; take over all critical infrastructure (e.g. water treatment); expropriate banks; expropriate landlords; set up industry that competes with monopolized production for fast income and jobs alleviation (e.g. pharmaceutical); replace school curricula; ensure worker/union protections and vigorously promote and organize for mass unionization; disarm all enemies; expand recruiting for armed organ, and split it into local militias and more regularized army; overtake satellite towns and rural areas' armed enforcers and consolidate in the same way

>>2678324
The issue is that all of the more moderate leftists get drawn towards the neutered legal parties, unlike in Tsarist Russia where repression of all forms of leftism forced them to join underground movements. And of course the vast majority of people are moderates and not radicals, or else being a radical wouldn't be radical.

So the "democratic" system is a very effective way of sapping real vanguard parties of popular support, and a communist party by its nature needs the people's support. And of course there's also that modern digital surveillance is orders of magnitude better than the Tsar's surveillance was, which greatly helps 3 letter agencies in dismantling threats. I honestly think the only way is to do things that accelerate the collapse of the state, both economic and social. In the event of a collapse the state surveillance apparatus will stop operating, and the stable, secure society with treats will break down, making people a lot more receptive to the idea of a new system better than the old one that they just saw fail.