/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>2680904
Did he curse himself?

>>2680907
>Kurds, living in kurdish areas are an indigenous ethnic group in the middle east, who have lived alongside the other ethnic groups for centuries. While there's obviously been repression and racism, even slaughter directed at them over the years. The Kurds do not live in a colonial apartheid installed and maintained at the behest of western interests. Their conflict with the arabs is an internal issue in and not the primary contradiction of their society. Palestinians are the subjects of a 70 year long colonial occupation and apartheid regime. Their mass extermination and subjugation at the hands of the jewish supremacist state is their primary contradiction.
I still fail the see how this makes one national liberation justified and other not.
>Analyzing the world in terms of how subjectively good or bad situations are is idealism
Then that makes you an idealist then given how you're the one who even brought and keeps bringing up the different levels of opression kurds and gazans face
> I called you a ziorat because you called Gaza reactionary islamists
Cause its a fact that they are reactionary islamists and me saying it keeps triggering you for some reason is it because you're muslim yourself? I genuinely cant see why you'd be trying to run damage control for them otherwise.
Instead of just accepting the fact hamas are islamist reactionaries that happen to be advancing a progressive cause by fighting an even bigger reactionary force.
>This is idealism. Their beliefs are reactionary? Compared to what?
Compared to liberal, democratic, non-islamist and marxist beliefs and political parties in gaza that hamas literally supressess.
>Beliefs are not reactionary in some essential way, but only in relation to objective progress in their particular circumstances.
This would only be true if radical islamism was the only belief that has and could exist in gaza when its not and also as if islamism is a belief that is somehow necessary for gazans and hamas to hold.

>>2680914
Better opressed by your own bourgeoisie than other bourgeoisie that view you as a subhuman whose mere existence is a threat,no?
The current situation is an extermination of fhe working class and not just crushing it,what use is it to have workers' councils when the workers are all dead?
I can't even believe the fact you make such judgements about people that can be easily radicalized by long years of oppression and death in an open air prison while being high likely a citizen of a fairly stable country
Current gaza doesn't even have a means of production developed enough to transition to socialism,almost the entire strip is just ruins and rubble

>>2680928
>Better opressed by your own bourgeoisie than other bourgeoisie that view you as a subhuman whose mere existence is a threat,no?
literally every other year some third world nation slaughters a million of its own population that they consider as subhumans whose mere existence is a threat
>I can't even believe the fact you make such judgements about people that can be easily radicalized by long years of oppression and death in an open air prison while being high likely a citizen of a fairly stable country
yeah better to support hamas whos actions have completely destroyed gaza and likely facilitated the expulsion of its people

>>2680915
you can get rid of the man but you can never get rid of the Curse

>>2680920
>I still fail the see how this makes one national liberation justified and other not.
I didn't say that the Kurdish national liberation project is unjustifiable. It just operates under different circumstances. In essence, it just doesn't matter as much, because the continued existence of the Kurdish people as a people and the larger conflict in the middle east, is not beholden to their liberation as a nation, whereas that of the Palestinians is. That doesn't mean the kurdish natlib movement is "unjustified" or whatever.

>Then that makes you an idealist then given how you're the one who even brought and keeps bringing up the different levels of opression kurds and gazans face
No, you are the idealist who sees my analysis of how the situations are different as some subjective hierarchy of "levels of oppression"
>Cause its a fact that they are reactionary islamists
>T..they just are ok?! If I assert it again with no argument that makes it true!!
Lel retard
>me saying it keeps triggering you for some reason is it because you're muslim yourself?
Lel double retard, wildly coping
>I genuinely cant see why you'd be trying to run damage control for them otherwise.
>Instead of just accepting the fact hamas are islamist reactionaries that happen to be advancing a progressive cause by fighting an even bigger reactionary force.
Triple retard. Reactionaries dont advance progressive causes dog, that's what makes them reactionaries, they oppose progressive causes. Explain how they are reactionary without using idealism or essentialism. Hard mode: make an actual argument instead of just asserting it
>Compared to liberal, democratic, non-islamist and marxist beliefs and political parties in gaza that hamas literally supressess.
They literally openly work together with armed marxist leninist groups, they suppress isreali collaborators, whatever libshit hasbara moniker you want to give them, as you would expect of the progressive forces.
>This would only be true if radical islamism was the only belief that has and could exist in gaza when its not and also as if islamism is a belief that is somehow necessary for gazans and hamas to hold.
It simply is what it is. Daydreaming about this or that imagined alternative to the current state of things doesn't change the objective conditions

>>2680931
Why do you sound like "but do you condemn hamas?" Liberal zionists?

Hamas is reactionary and this isn't the point i'm trying to get at.

I was addressing your view that every gazan is a raging islamist hitlerite that wants another holocaust or that is just gaza is one of muh third world shitholes where death is always prominent so we shouldn't care about it that much.

"First world" nations have reached the global peak of developement of productive forces and still haven't achieved socialism even once but you expect impoverished nations to somehow do that

Maybe try being less racist and stop making assumptions of populations regardless of their bourgeoisie or state ideology

I for one have lived my entire life in the third world and i don't assume every westerner views me as a subhuman zealous oriental even when their bourgeoisie do so

It's ironic you blame them for electing hamas and then condemn the bourgeoisie as an exploitative class that doesn't serve the interests of workers in the same breath,isn't it?

>>2680944
>Explain how they are reactionary
they're islamist fundamentalists anon
>>2680949
>Why do you sound like "but do you condemn hamas?" Liberal zionists?
because you're mentally ill???
>I was addressing your view that every gazan is a raging islamist hitlerite that wants another holocaust
not rly my view but whatever
> that is just gaza is one of muh third world shitholes where death is always prominent
that is true
>"First world" nations have reached the global peak of developement of productive forces and still haven't achieved socialism
yeah because the workers revolution hasn't happened yet
> but you expect impoverished nations to somehow do that
no i don't i just pointed out that national liberation doesn't rly change anything
> I for one have lived my entire life in the third world
ok?? do you want a trophy??? i don't care what shithole you come from

>>2680944
>I didn't say that the Kurdish national liberation project is unjustifiable. It just operates under different circumstances. In essence, it just doesn't matter as much, because the continued existence of the Kurdish people as a people and the larger conflict in the middle east, is not beholden to their liberation as a nation, whereas that of the Palestinians is. That doesn't mean the kurdish natlib movement is "unjustified" or whatever.
Then why the fuck do you even keep bringing it up?
Wow two national liberation movements have different circumstances and conditions who the fuck wouldve thunk??
>No, you are the idealist who sees my analysis of how the situations are different as some subjective hierarchy of "levels of oppression"
Then please explain what the point of your analysis even is and why hamas fighting against israel isnt pointless but the sdf fighting the syrians is.
>Triple retard. Reactionaries dont advance progressive causes dog, that's what makes them reactionaries,
Yes fucking fucking can an do god nuance really does not exist in your brain everything is black and white like i already said.
Reactionaries can and have advancenced progressive forces when doing so happens to be in their temporary interest.
>Explain how they are reactionary without using idealism or essentialism.
I cant and neither can you explain how they arent reactionary without also using idealism or essentialism.
>They literally openly work together with armed marxist leninist groups,
They're literally in a civil war and have been for the past 20 years with fatah the marxist lenininst organization in palestine.
>It simply is what it is.
Except it isnt hamas didnt always rule gaza.
Their reactionary beliefs frankly arent necessary for anything.
Also you didnt answer the question whether you were muslim or not. Because im really starting suspect you are lots of muslim marxists like you really like to run defense for islamist groups and beliefs because they still deep down hold the same reactionary beliefs.

>>2680956
You are just trolling at this point
>they're islamist fundamentalists anon
I didn't even question that and i acknowledged their reactionary stance
>not rly my view but whatever
But you emphasize on the "third world" aspect and you clearly view their populations in a condensing way throughout your previous replies,and the fact they elected a reactionary government is no different from burgers electing trump,but looks like you have a closeted admiration of liberal democracy as a halfway step in achieving socialism only le civilized vvest has
>yeah because the workers revolution hasn't happened yet
Fair point but don't blame other nations for not having had it either,the "third world" is in a degree of reaction similar to the "first world" and other criticisms are just idpol moralist drivel

>>2680915
Nope. He cursed Syria. Notice he is still alive and playing vidya in Moscow. The Assad is the curse and now it was Syria's turn.

>>2680956
>they're islamist fundamentalists anon
Make an non idealist argument challenge status: failed
Not surprising

>>2680961
>Then why the fuck do you even keep bringing it up?
Because we're having an argument about it? Lol chill dude
>Wow two national liberation movements have different circumstances and conditions who the fuck wouldve thunk??
Well you clearly didn't because you thought the same argument would apply
>Then please explain what the point of your analysis even is and why hamas fighting against israel isnt pointless but the sdf fighting the syrians is.
I already did. I mean, it's not completely pointless imo, but yeah this iteration of the struggle seems to be at an end and maybe the best course of action is to retreat from the natlib struggle for now. That is not an option for Palestinians for reasons I already explained.

>Yes fucking fucking can an do god nuance really does not exist in your brain everything is black and white like i already said.
No, I don't know what this cope is. I see things plenty nuanced, I think I've demonstrated that fine.

>Reactionaries can and have advancenced progressive forces when doing so happens to be in their temporary interest.
Then at that point in time they are part of the progressive forces. If their position shifts at a later time they become reactionaries. Idk why you are so upset, this is pretty basic stuff anon. Things only are what they are in relation to other things. Quite funny that you're accusing me of seeing things in black and white while all you espouse is essentialism lol
>I cant and neither can you explain how they arent reactionary without also using idealism or essentialism.
I already did anon? It was that whole thing about their different conditions and them fighting genocidal racial supremacists in a giant prison camp, who want to exterminate them and all that.

>They're literally in a civil war and have been for the past 20 years with fatah the marxist lenininst organization in palestine.
Tf? Fatah is not a marxist leninist org lol. They are socdems and the largest party in the PLO, which has amongst other parties, ML parties in it. Fatah rules the Palestinian Authority which is widely seen as pure capitulators and collaborators for the zionists lmao

>Except it isnt hamas didnt always rule gaza.
But it does now and is the only option available currently
>Their reactionary beliefs frankly arent necessary for anything.
Their beliefs are not reactionary in relation to their objective conditions. Only to you, because you are incapable of looking at it like a materialist, simply assigning beliefs as reactionary outside of their circumstances

>Also you didnt answer the question whether you were muslim or not
God you are retarded. What do you think I meant by calling that a wild cope?
>Because im really starting suspect you are lots of muslim marxists like you really like to run defense for islamist groups and beliefs because they still deep down hold the same reactionary beliefs.
That's dumb and also Im not a muslim

>>2681011
>Their beliefs are not reactionary in relation to their objective conditions
Explain how their objective conditions force them to outlaw same-sex relations.

>>2680974
>no i don't i just pointed out that national liberation doesn't rly change anything
I thought you dislike national liberation as it does lead to bourgeoisie rule instead of a dotp?
If you don't expect gaza to be a dotp anytime soon why not desire their mere right of self determination (and I don't mean hamas or pflp or any other imperialist proxy in here,i just mean sovereignty and self rule)
Socialism as per marx and engels and is incompatible without self determination and that was clear in their views in their views on ireland poland

You can disagree with that all you want but that makes you more of a bordigist than a "true marxist"

>>2681032
Inapplicable*

>>2681032
Barely any nation in the world today is subject to colonialism more than market forces, hence the arguments about natlib are outdated in most cases. Palestine is the unfortunate exception that proves the rule.

>>2681026
>>2681031
>B..but what about the gays??
Jesus christ, mashallah what a pivot lmfao. I will accept your concession on every front.

Imperialism like the extreme apartheid conditions that the palestinians are subjected to hamper the economic and social development of their society. This in turn prevents them from resolving internal contradictions, such as homophobia, sexism, religiosity, etc. This effect is observed throughout the world, where more advanced economies began to try to resolve these kinds of contradictions before other societies that were further in the periphery. That is how hamas are progressive even if they don't like the gays, as they might outlaw their relationships, they are still also preventing their extermination on the basis of their race at the hands of genocidal colonialists, which is ultimately the larger, more concerning contradiction for anyone living there gay or not

>>2681039
>That is how hamas are progressive even if they don't like the gays, as they might outlaw their relationships, they are still also preventing their extermination on the basis of their race at the hands of genocidal colonialists, which is ultimately the larger, more concerning contradiction for anyone living there gay or not
So if israel stops existing you'll literally run out of any excuse or justification to explain how hamas isnt reactionary group.

>>2681046
>If the material circumstances change drastically will your position change?
Lol obviously yes. Depending on how those circumstances play out
Like do you actually have brain damage? Do you just not understand materialism at all?

>>2681051
So again they're a reactionary group that happens to be fighting a progressive cause for their own benefit.

>>2681055
If you're an essentialist retard sure, if you're a materialist no

>>2681056
>If you're an essentialist retard sure, if you're a materialist no
So if you're smart yes and a delusional retard no.

>>2681057
Unfortunately it's the exact opposite, Im so sorry anon, Im so so sorry

>>2681059
How? You still cant prove hamas isnt a reactionary group.

>>2681064
I already did anon and you conceded to everything lmfao

>>2681077
Hamas is a reactionary group.
By your logic lf a reactionary group is fighting a progressive cause then that would make churchill not a reactionary

>>2680248
Stubborn insistence on confrontation between the Ba'athists and Rojava is the furthest thing from being vindicated. You can't claim to be "vindicated" when you insisted on doing the exact opposite of what needed to be done, and when the approach you supported caused complete and total defeat.

>>2681079
What do you think the Popular Front was? The history of 20th century socialist movements is the history of collaborating with reactionaries for 'progressive and democratic' causes.

>>2681091
>history of collaborating with reactionaries
Yeah exactly reactionaries helping progrssive causes for their own gain does not result in them suddenly not being reactionaries.

>>2681039
Given that Kurds have long been subject to discriminatory policies by Arab governments, and given that this new government is fully comprador, its reasonable to expect their conditions to deteriorate to a situation that can properly be described as colonial.

>>2681079
>If I just keep asserting it, does that count as an argument?
No anon, im sorry but it does not

>By your logic lf a reactionary group is fighting a progressive cause then that would make churchill not a reactionary
WW2 is a completely different situation than Palestine, so this is more idealism. I don't care much for WW2 history, but I would be hard pressed to consider GB reactionary in it. The Soviet Union also quieted on calling them reactionaries at that time, but as circumstances changed they went right back to it

>>2681094
That is fair, it is quite a worrying situation. It's not like I support the islamists in this

So /sg/ anons, What was the plan?

Surely the SDF/DAANES/Rojava/whatever must have understood that whatever new order came from the conflict, would want the oil and crops (supposedly most of the Syrian economy) back on their admin.

How did they plan for continuity after that?

>>2681137
Tbh I think they overestimated the strength of the Ba'athist position prior to the rebel offensive, as we all did. Nobody expected them to fall so easily and their plan was just to exist in the niche in a frozen conflict. Everything since the fall of Damascus has been improvisation.

>>2681137
>Surely the SDF/DAANES/Rojava/whatever must have understood that whatever new order came from the conflict, would want the oil and crops (supposedly most of the Syrian economy) back on their admin.
There wasnt really anything they could do.

The Isis CIa desk for tired of the Rojava CiA desk

>>2681153
They could've at least gone down fighting

So let me get this straight . Rojava and the anarchist state is now working with and integrated with the ISIS state of jolani because fucking Lindsy graham made a phone call ?? You gotta be kidding

>>2681166
yup, shit is quite bleak mein uyghur

>>2681163
I'd absolutely support a continuation of insurgent resistance against the headchopper regime, but it's easy to say that as observers. We know based on their past behaviour that these terrorist fucks wouldn't hesitate to wipe out entire villages in reprisal for any resistance. I would still urge the PYD to begin organizing underground resistance though, both armed and unarmed. They should be burying weapons and forming clandestine armed cells, and most importantly linking up with any other dissident elements including any remaining Ba'athists.

>>2681163
And antagonized the current regime even more? And die pointless deaths?
No point really.

>If class collaborationist then reactionary
>Rojova and Hamas: Class collaborationist ergo reactionary

Thanks for writing moralist paragraphs no one is reading in defence of western propped movements :)

HTS will not be able to handle all the contradictions, least of all Israel

Message from Farhan Haj Isa to the Aleppo meeting
A meeting was held in Aleppo between the Kobanê Administration delegation and the Aleppo provincial delegation.
After the meeting ended, a message was delivered from the delegation of the Kobanê Administration, Ferhan Hac Îsa.
Ferhan Hac Îsa said in his message: "The meeting and reception were also good. We discussed the things we wanted to discuss. During the meeting, we drew attention to the current situation between us that needs to be resolved. In our discussions, we discussed the siege on Kobani, the lack of water and internet.
Most importantly, this anger and resentment that has arisen within society must be addressed and addressed. Secondly, the soldiers on the frontlines and on the border are posing a threat. The soldiers on those frontlines must be withdrawn within the framework of the agreement between the SDF and the interim government, and the people must return to their homes and properties, because the people are tired.
"The interim government officials have also listened to our demands. The terms of the agreement will be implemented on the ground in the near future."

Ferhan Hec Îsa: We discussed the siege of Kobanê during the meetings.
A meeting was held in Aleppo between a delegation from the Kobanê administration and a delegation from the city of Aleppo. Following the meeting, Ferhan Hec Îsa, Co-Chair of the Euphrates Canton, made a statement on behalf of the Kobanê delegation.
Hec Îsa stated that issues related to Kobanê were discussed at the meeting, saying, “We drew attention to the need to improve the situation. We mentioned the siege of Kobanê, the water and internet shortages. Most importantly, the anger and dissatisfaction within the community must be addressed and worked on. On the other hand, there was the issue of the military presence creating fear on the border and in residential areas. The soldiers should be withdrawn within the framework of the agreement between the SDF and the Syrian Interim Government, and the people should be able to return to their homes and properties; because the people are very tired now.”
Stating that their demands were heard by Damascus government officials, Hec Îsa said, "In the coming period, the implementation of the agreement's terms on the ground will be ensured."

>>2681212
yea, i think a big part of this push has been about other local actors using the Damascus government to destroy DAANES, who would prefer to wait it out for the reason you've given, before the whole jihadi mess collapses.

>>2681166
>Rojava and the anarchist state is now working with and integrated with the ISIS state of jolani because fucking Lindsy graham made a phone call ??
stop smoking drugs.

>>2680867
Kurds did it to themselves, they have no one to blame but themselves for fighting against Bashar and being tools of american imperialism.

SDF general's last words - PLEASE HELP US ISRAEL WAAAAAAAAAA, BIJI BIJI ANARCHISTAN!!!(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)

>>2681437
>>2681440
Thanks for your interesting and informative input, anon.
This was sarcasm. Website for mentally ill short-bus children, istg..

>>2681437
>they have no one to blame but themselves for fighting against Bashar
There was virtually no fighting between the Syrian government and SDF.