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From my understanding, Marx's philosophical theory was essentially the dialectical method except applied to history and society. To me, it seemed like it could be broadly summarized as :
>Society determines men's consciousness
>This creates class antagonisms and conflicting interests amongst them
>Over time, contradictions between them are overcomed by changing the structure of society, which produced these classes
>Communism is the movement which abolishes class, thus ending structural contradictions within society


However, I don't see where alienation comes in all of this. To me, the antagonisms between class and the desire to overcome contradictions was mainly in regards to each class' own interest. The bourgeoisie benefitted from capitalism, and so aimed at keeping it, whilst the proletariat endured it and in turn had different motivations. My understanding of alienation is essentially that it is the impossibility for men to fulfill their social and creative potential. This twists the dialectic from class conflict to merely satisfaction of one own's potential. It seems like capitalism or class structure isn't inherently at fault in this way, but more so how it is performed.
So, from my understanding, it looks like alienation can either be replaced in Marx's "mature" dialectic by treating it merely as one of the many motivations for the proletariat to overcome capitalism. Or, on the other side, that it treats the economic crisis and misery produced by capitalism as only alienating factors which are added ontop of the pre-existing alienations.
I think that fundamentally this might go at odds with how I percieve's Marx's works. Imo, Marx is mainly a social critique who performs a sociological and economical assessment of society to posit the sources for its conflicts, and its potential future. This concept of alienation seems very much hegelian and much more philosophical, and incurs some form of moralist and idealist critique in Marx's otherwise "scientific" work. Thoughts ?

<inb4 read the manuscripts

I have, and they didn't answer my questions.

It's metaphysics nonsense that Marx later abandoned

This is not to say it's invalid but it's not a materialist premise

>>2683959
What Marx meant by alienation is that the worker is alienated from the fruits of his own labor. A hundred men work to build a new car in a Ford plant but the car doesn't belong to any of them, it belongs to the owner of the plant because he owns the means of production. That's what alienation means.

>>2684109
No it's not, it's when something (e.g. capitalist production) prevents the fulfillment of social and creative potential.
Marx thought that men were social animals who interacted with nature and their environment through labor. When this labor doesn't become a tool, but an end in and of itself, it prevents men from realizing their true purpose.
This is why picrel talks about the manifestation of alienation in regards to production, but why you can also have religious alienation in regards to truth

>>2683989
Fuck off, Althusser.

>>2684109
>>2684145
What I never understood is how socialism aims to solve alienation. It seems like a problem of industrial production and mass society. Instead of the corpo getting the fruits it's the party or "society" but you're still just a cog.

File: 1770530902524.png (174.96 KB, 480x341, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2683959
> My understanding of alienation is essentially that it is the impossibility for men to fulfill their social and creative potential. This twists the dialectic from class conflict to merely satisfaction of one own's potential. It seems like capitalism or class structure isn't inherently at fault in this way, but more so how it is performed.
Because the collective freedom of humanity from class society is the individual freedom of each person to maximize their own potential within society. Marx was trying to harmonize the tension between collective freedom from oppression and unmet needs with individual freedom to pursue self actualization. Communism still has universal compulsion to work, but it also has fewer working hours and a higher standard of living.

>>2683989
>It's metaphysics nonsense that Marx later abandoned
that is essentially what OP is implying. which is obviously bunk

>>2684714
correct

File: 1770561421425.jpeg (93.57 KB, 828x783, IMG_5065.jpeg)


>Marx's philosophical theory
lol retard

>was essentially the dialectical method

the dialectic isnt a method

><inb4 read the manuscripts

>I have, and they didn't answer my questions.
no you didnt or you wouldnt speak of alienation in purely sociological terms lmfao

Read Bordiga's commentary on the Manuscripts he proves the continuation of Marx's thought and deboonks le young Marx theory

https://www.marxists.org/archive/bordiga/works/1959/commentary-1844.htm

There is an audio book of it on YouTube

>>2685105
bordigger likes the smell of his own farts

File: 1770569098038.jpg (511.45 KB, 2160x2160, dialectics.jpg)

>>2683959
>Marx's philosophical theory was essentially the dialectical method except applied to history and society.
There's so much wrongness packed into a short little sentence.

>>2684156
How is alienation a materialist premise? Does the human have no inherent nature and what we call nature is just an expression of his social life or does he have "species being"?

Honestly alienation in Marx is rather an undercooked concept far better explored in psychoanalytic theory.

>>2685111
>>2685078
Then explain what is wrong with it you smug good-for-nothings.

File: 1770603199999.jpg (164.19 KB, 1080x750, hegel.jpg)

>>2685843
>you smug good-for-nothings
you are on an imageboard not on fucking kindergarten loser

<inb4 crying to the retarded mods

have a pity spoonfeeding

>>2684969
>appeared as
any time you see marx saying "appeared as" you have to remember his young hegelian background and hegel's philosophical distinction between appearance and essence. For Marx, appearance is surface level. Whenever you see him say something "appears" a certain way, he is getting ready to say later that it is not simply like that, but that there's an underlying essence most people miss. Even on the first page of Capital Volume 1 he says the wealth of capitalist society appears as an immense accumulation of commodities. He then spends the rest of the volume showing how it is not merely that.

>>2683959
>>2685843
Science proceeds through open inquiry it doesn't start with a preloaded methodology and then coerce reality to fit it. The moment a system demands that all phenomena obey preset dialectical laws it stops being objective and turns into filtering results through prior assumptions.

In The Holy Family, Marx exposes this logic as a form of intellectual mystification. By elevating the abstraction the fruit or the law above the specific reality, the theorist treats the actual world as a mere byproduct of their own categories. So no, Marx definitely didn't subscribe to the "Dialectical Materialism" fan club. He wasn't out here trying to find the hidden cheat codes or laws of the universe baked into the fabric of reality.

>>2685863
appearance is not separate from essence.

alienation (or "estrangement") means the way in which things are related by their abstract externalisation (e.g. representation). to marx, labour is the primary mode of man's alienation, which imbues objects of creation with his own qualities, such that he worships himself, as an illusion of transcendence. in feuerbach's "essence of christianity" (1841) he sees how Christ as a figure is the representation of humanity in general, and thus the worship of Christ is the alienated expression of man's self-becoming. it is the medium of the symbol which is the object of the young hegelian critique (e.g. feuerbach, stirner, marx, bauer) which is rendered as "false consciousness". in marx's criticism of the young hegelians (t. "the german ideology", 1843) he says that consciousness comes from material causes, and so one cannot change consciousness without changing material circumstances (this theme is prevalent throughout all his work). in "on the jewish question" (1843) he is directly responding to bruno bauer (1843) whose concern with jewish identity leads him to believe that the jew must integrate (it is an early anti-zionist work). marx generally agrees, but deepens the critique by situating form and content within the capitalist conditions of antisemitism. he maintains that the consciousness of the christian antisemite is confused, since the christian is a sublime jew, rather than a common jew (e.g. romans 2:29, romans 9:8), and as such, all conditions of the jew (e.g. "huckstering") is attributed to the christian, just in a sublated format. marx further attributes the division between civil society (e.g. the private sector) and the state as the location of the antagonism, mysteriously claiming that both must be abolished to erase both christianity and judaism (as per bauer's program). thus, marx sees how it is structural divisions in society again bringing out ideal divisions in religious sentiment.

in the same essay, marx claims that it is money and capital which is the "jealous god of israel", which is important in considering a later work. the later work is an 1844 commentary on james mill where he writes:
<Owing to this alien mediator [money] – instead of man himself being the mediator for man – man regards his will, his activity and his relation to other men as a power independent of him and them. His slavery, therefore, reaches its peak. It is clear that this mediator now becomes a real God, for the mediator is the real power over what it mediates to me. 
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/james-mill/
thus, money is the "real god" of man who engages in a commercial society, where he is "alienated" as a medium (e.g. symbol) that acts on behalf of himself. thus, alienation appears clear; it is the way in which (in this case) "man" externalises himself in an object, which then takes possession over him (like a religious icon). from this we may move onto the "1844 manuscripts":
<This fact expresses merely that the object which labor produces – labor’s product – confronts it as something alien, as a power independent of the producer. The product of labor is labor which has been embodied in an object, which has become material: it is the objectification of labor. Labor’s realization is its objectification. Under these economic conditions this realization of labor appears as loss of realization for the workers; objectification as loss of the object and bondage to it; appropriation as estrangement, as alienation.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/labour.htm
thus, it is necessary to conclude two facts; "labour" as a concept (which marx attests to "political economy" by its abstraction) is realised in its mode of objectification (e.g. in its productive end), which in turn is the very mode of alienation (since "man" is transposed into an object, like money). also, the realisation of "labour" is also the process of its economic dispossession, so the worker is doubly alienated - in the first case, by the idea that he is labour, and secondly, by labour's conditions. so then, alienation is not simply being "exploited", but in having the social relation of "labour" to begin with. marx says here too that labour's realisation is in the power of an alien object which comes to dominate man, the same way that man worships money or Christ. marx explains:
<they [communism and atheism] are but the first real emergence, the actual realisation for man of man’s essence and of his essence as something real.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/hegel.htm
thus, marx characterises as the positive concept of "humanism", where man may be united with himself. so, if alienation is in effect, mediation, then disalienation must be the immediacy of being (or so to say, the erasure of internal contradiction), an anti-hegelian project, since hegel saw the absolute idea bound to its manner of self-mediation (alienation). we then return to marx's political ambitions of attempting to resolve all internal division (e.g. state and civil society, town and country, division of labour, etc.) while hegel preserves contradiction as constitutive (necessary) of being, such that in kantian terms, he sees war as the health of the state, by its movement to self-consciousness (of course, the father of italian fascism, giovanni gentile, was a hegelian). so then, that is a difference in dialectic. i find hegel more correct, but thats just my perspective.

after this we may move onto later works by marx, such as the grundrisse (1858) where he explains how man is alienated by capital through its objectification of him, and in turn, capital makes itself a subject:
<Rather, it is the machine which possesses skill and strength in place of the worker, is itself the virtuoso, with a soul of its own in the mechanical laws acting through it; and it consumes coal, oil etc. (matières instrumentales), just as the worker consumes food, to keep up its perpetual motion. The worker’s activity, reduced to a mere abstraction of activity, is determined and regulated on all sides by the movement of the machinery, and not the opposite. The science which compels the inanimate limbs of the machinery, by their construction, to act purposefully, as an automaton, does not exist in the worker’s consciousness, but rather acts upon him through the machine as an alien power, as the power of the machine itself […] In machinery, objectified labour confronts living labour within the labour process itself as the power which rules it; a power which, as the appropriation of living labour, is the form of capital. The transformation of the means of labour into machinery, and of living labour into a mere living accessory of this machinery, as the means of its action, also posits the absorption of the labour process in its material character as a mere moment of the realization process of capital.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1857/grundrisse/ch13.htm
thus, in the productive process, man is not in charge, but rather, the machine takes control of man, imbuing itself with a soul by its replenishment with "living labour" (is marx prophecying artificial intelligence)? here then, man is reduced from his being merely "labour" to being "capital" (e.g. "variable capital"), since labour-power is already accepted as an indiscriminate commodity in the market. this agency by capital is also seen in capital vol. 1 (1867):
<the relations connecting the labour of one individual with that of the rest appear, not as direct social relations between individuals at work, but as what they really are, material relations between persons and social relations between things.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch01.htm
these "social relations" being expressed by the medium of exchange (what marx refers to as a "fetishism" and what he directly compares to the idols of religion):
<In order, therefore, to find an analogy, we must have recourse to the mist-enveloped regions of the religious world. In that world the productions of the human brain appear as independent beings endowed with life, and entering into relation both with one another and the human race. So it is in the world of commodities with the products of men’s hands […] the Fetishism inherent in commodities, or by the objective appearance of the social characteristics of labour…
thus, the feuerbachian critique still holds, that man in representing concrete relations, abstracts idols which he takes as the essence of such relations. man takes money to possess an intrinsic value, but this can only be true where man also produces commodities to be sold. this "fetishism" thus is the very notion of alienation, and marx provides this conclusion:
<The religious world is but the reflex of the real world [this, marx footnotes with a reference to his "zur kritik" of 1859, which discusses "base and superstructure"] … The religious reflex of the real world can, in any case, only then finally vanish, when the practical relations of every-day life offer to man none but perfectly intelligible and reasonable relations with regard to his fellowmen and to Nature. The life-process of society, which is based on the process of material production, does not strip off its mystical veil until it is treated as production by freely associated men, and is consciously regulated by them in accordance with a settled plan. This, however, demands for society a certain material ground-work or set of conditions of existence which in their turn are the spontaneous product of a long and painful process of development.
so then, marx sees that (as per his earlier work), religion (as the "illusory happiness" of mankind) is man's own alienation from his "real happiness", yet it can only be got rid of where the mode of production changes to an assortment of "freely associated men" with a "consciously regulated" plan for society (e.g. communism). so then, as marx also writes in 1844, the project of communism is to liberate man from the illusions of society, but for this to occur, society must change its material circumstances so as to reflect reality. this is why marx considers capitalism as important, since it unveils society by its brutality (1848):
<The bourgeoisie, historically, has played a most revolutionary part. The bourgeoisie, wherever it has got the upper hand, has put an end to all feudal, patriarchal, idyllic relations. It has pitilessly torn asunder the motley feudal ties that bound man to his “natural superiors”, and has left remaining no other nexus between man and man than naked self-interest, than callous “cash payment” […] In one word, for exploitation, veiled by religious and political illusions, it has substituted naked, shameless, direct, brutal exploitation […] The bourgeoisie has torn away from the family its sentimental veil, and has reduced the family relation to a mere money relation.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm
thus, the disillusionment which the bourgeoisie brings is an initiation into the self-consciousness of society, heralded by the bourgeois slogans of "reason" itself.

>>2684714
> 8 hours for work
> don't forget overtime
> commuting is now +2hours a day
> you still have to answer that email
>just enough time left for passive media consumption and 5hours sleep

Work is worse then it was under feudal times lmao, destroy everything

>>2686471
So true

>>2684685
That's because state capitalism isnt communism. It is just a nationalized forn of capitalism. They are supposedly "developing the productive forces" so that communist economic relations are possible. But that is just a load of bullshit they peddle while the party continues to reap the benefit of directing labour and commanding surplus.

Alienation and Commodity Fetishism were just not fully developed ideas IMO.

>>2685078
>the dialectic isnt a method
<"My dialectic method is not only different from the Hegelian, but is its direct opposite. To Hegel, the life-process of the human brain, i.e., the process of thinking, which, under the name of “the Idea,” he even transforms into an independent subject, is the demiurgos of the real world, and the real world is only the external, phenomenal form of “the Idea.” With me, on the contrary, the ideal is nothing else than the material world reflected by the human mind, and translated into forms of thought."
< - Karl Marx, Capital Volume One, Afterward to the Second German Edition

You are genuinely so retarded. Please read

>in purely sociological terms lmfao

Dumbass what did you think Marx's analysis was ? Think for a solid second before your answer, and please factor in that sociology is defined as : "the study of the development, structure, and functioning of human society".
Once you have formulated a coherent answer, please explain to me how Marx reconciles his earlier hegelian writings with his later social critique.

>>2685111
It is the dialectical method though, albeit applied to history and society (ergo historical materialism). The only error is that I said that it was a "philosophical" theory rather than being a social and economical theory.

>>2686254
Yes, which is why he considered the dialectic a method, rather than a general law like Engels.
Dialectical materialism as a tool to analyze society isn't fundamentally different than methodological individualism or holistic approaches in sociology. The only way it becomes different is when you start believing that it is an immanent law of motion.

>>2686315
I see, thanks for the effortpost. This clears up some details on alienation.

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>>2687029
>out of context quotemining to support shit that has nothing to do with marxism
if you actually read marx youd know dialectic is just a way of presenting ideas and nothing more

>>2687029
In what does this "method" consist? How have so many scientists managed to make important discoveries despite knowing nothing about it?

>>2686531
bc they werent meant to be grand concepts, you fell victim to academic second-hand readings of marx trying to muddle these concepts with sociological or philosophical bullshit lol

>>2687034
>quotemining
Is using any quote quotemining or do you have specific criterias established at the 2025 quoting convention ?

>if you actually read marx youd know dialectic is just a way of presenting ideas

>a way of presenting ideas
Should I be using this presentation format on my powerpoints too ?

>>2687049
>In what does this "method" consist?
Iirc Marx made a pretty detailed exposition of it in his letter to Anenkov. I might be wrong though.

>How have so many scientists managed to make important discoveries despite knowing nothing about it?

It's somewhat similar to holistic approaches in sociology, and holistic approaches have yielded many important discoveries

File: 1770725227598.jpeg (39.2 KB, 617x324, images.jpeg)

>>2687029
to sum it up most concisely, alienation is mediation. it is the way in which a subject is related to itself by a form of objectification. in marx's case, "labour" appears to man, not as self-possession, but as the estrangement he has from himself in the form of social production (which he highlights as the division between society and nature in the commodity; e.g. use and exchange value). thus, property (as the "essence" of labour) becomes man's separation from himself, and it is his property which comes to determine him as an "alien power". the historical point on this is that as soon as property emerges with the division of labour, then class society begins, as labour is unevenly distributed between people. thus, man becomes an object, and money becomes a subject (e.g. man's "real god"), with man being seen as a means to this end (e.g. in xenophon's "on revenues", he speaks on how the state should hire slaves to mine silver so that commerce can expand, showing how human life is reduced to its means to expand the phantom of "value". in aristotle's "rhetoric" he speaks on how gold can be seen as more valuable than water, despite water's necessity for life. heraclitus also states that much labour is expended for a little gold). here, gold and silver come to inhabit the telos of man, with divine imagery incorporating these metals, for which so much blood is shed. in plato's elaboration of a caste system, he also ranks the division of labour by the varying metals (gold, silver, bronze and iron), the same as hesiod's descension of the ages (t. theogony, 750 BCE). here, nature is embelished as a hierarchy of value, expressly tied to a division of labour, manifested as a political hierarchy of competing class interests. thus, the cosmos is reduced to the "magic of money". some antique figures rebelled against money however, such as Christ, who directly claims that money is of the devil, and that a rich man cannot go to heaven. the jewish money changers held certain theological prejudices against money, in that it was a form of idolatry (e.g. roman coins which displayed graven images) yet they had no issue with converting existing coins into their base metals, to make exchange acceptable. of course, for this sake, Christ accuses the pharisees of turning the house of God into a den of thieves (e.g. a marketplace). the english radical robert owen (1848) later says that iron is the true precious metal of mankind, and lenin says that gold should be used for public urinals, as a testament to its historical dethronement. so then, as Christ understood, money is a form of idolatry and the righteous person cannot worship both God and money.

later on, as quoted from the grundrisse (1858) and capital (1867), man becomes subordinate to the machine (where marx characterises capital as a "vampire" that sucks the soul out of man to ensoul itself, following in the christian tradition of demonising these forms of wealth, such that marx also directly quotes revelation in attributing money as the mark of the beast - of course, marx is not a christian, but its relevant to see how the ancient notion of "idolatry" perfectly applies to marx's critique of alienation. marx, in the republican tradition, would simply see man himself as God, and so the "true" religion is humanist atheism, which i see as a sublation of protestantism in its essential character). thus, man is first objectified by his social division of labour, which manifests as commodity exchange and money, and capital emerges where profits are generated by adding labour to existing capital stock. marx characterises this as "living labour" (subjectivity) combining with "dead labour" (objectivity) to produce the "absolute idea" of surplus value in realisation (the larger point is that to marx, labour is the hegelian "substance" which becomes "spiritualised" by capital). so then (as per mill, 1821), capital becomes an end in itself, and so man worships himself by an alienated (mediated) form, rather than the immediacy of "humanism" (the positive concept of humanity, being a combination of both atheism and communism, as described in the 1844 manuscripts). of course, this is entirely comparable to the "new jerusalem" of biblical eschatology (where it is also said that there is no separate presence of God, but that God is the collective spirit of the fellowship, like how the holy spirit is the presence of Christ in the church). so then, alienation is directly comparable to the "sin of adam" in the bible (where he is forced to labour for sustenance) and the overcoming of alienation is the restoration of paradise. as i have previously commented, i am more hegelian than marxist, so see the necessity of alienation in the self-conception of society and nature. we are only unified in death, but in life, we remain in contradiction.


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