/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

You’re gonna need to elaborate

>>2686989
marx argued that pushing class interests would lead to freedom of the individual, tight social structures mean less freedom for the individual and aren't actually collectivized class interest, yet many socialists will conflate the terms and push for things like uniforms, arbitrary cultural norms and the like on the basis of "collective vs individual". I am asking if you have the courage to not do such a low autism score conflation of terms.

>>2686997
you're actually confusing terms because you aren't even saying what kind of freedom you mean. Freedom to do whatever you want, or freedom from starvation, joblessness, homelessness, etc.?

>>2686997
you VILL live in ze dacha, and you VILL wear ze redguard uniform

>>2687004
that's neither here nor there? whether you like active or passive freedoms you need to collectivize to achieve anything, and whether you prioritize passive or active freedoms, tight culture is largely an obstacle.

communism has nothing to do with either individualism nor collectivism

>>2687053
class interest is collectivism. revolution is collectivist action. just because marx didn't invent the term does not mean the term does not describe marxism at all. what's more is that marxists constantly use the term, so we're stuck with it, I wouldn't mind if we stopped, but we're not going to.

>>2686988
What's a tight/loose version of individualist/collectivist societies? None of these terms mean much to me because people use them so differently or maybe I'm just dumb. I've been told America is individualist and conformist and that capitalism is individualist and collectivist. The only thing people seem to agree on is that Asian countries are more collectivist because of their long history of rice cultivation, but I dunno what that means on a day to day basis. Something about family ties but couldn't that apply to a lot of places like Latin America.

Anyway it seems to me the people who say they want to live in a collectivist society don't like the idea of conforming to community standards in fact they chafe against them. And the American right is supposedly more individualistic but they want immigrants to adhere to American cultural standards while the supposedly collectivist left says hey don't worry man just do whatever you feel like. Huh?

>>2686988
Individualism vs. collectivism is a meaningless dichotomy

>>2686988
I think 'tight cultures' would be like special interest meetups or going to church for example, or on a slightly larger scale communes of free association, whereas in greater society anything goes.

>>2687990
When I see the first picture, I instantly think of exposed brick hipster burgers

>>2688005
>>2687990
a tight culture is one where you cannot deviate from cultural norms(don't wear your hair long, don't grow a bear, don't cut your beard, wear a hijab, wear a school uniform, wear a suit at work, show up for church on sundays or get shunned, be a good horse wrestler, etc), a collectivist society is one where class strongly acts as a group. there is a degree of correlation because all amish people(tight culture as opposed to a loose culture) will naturally collectivize to protect their interest, but not every collectivizing group has to be tight.

>>2688005
a tight culture is one where there are strong normative standards of behavior, one that frowns on or punishes deviation from a cultural standard. it's almost entirely a bad thing.

>>2689047
>>2689051
No, tight cultures, can just form communes, like the Amish or like in ghettos like ultra orthodox jews , it's just that they won't have any private property relations to coerce people extraneously on the society scale.

I'm a communist precisely because I'm an egoist.

>>2689067
well yes, that's the point of the thread, communism is not anti individual in the social sense.

>>2687076
>lets abstract thes concrete actions enough to fit them into some irrelevant -isms
>now communism is part of my favorite ideology yippeeeee!!!
peak fucking retard

>>2686997
>push for things like uniforms, arbitrary cultural norms
It's not arbitrary when it increase effectiveness and get people to stop fighting over nothing. One clothing style of dress means you aren't wasting resources producing 100s of millions of other styles. One set of cultural norms means you don't have 8 billion opposing ideas of dignity and have constant fighting over saying hello the "respectful" way.

>>2689119
t. dreams of living in the pod and eating the bugs

this whole thread is so painfully dumb

>>2686997
>putting the horse before the cart
yawn, always the same with pseuds

>>2689136
Not sure if you realize that having a baseline guarantee of shelter and food is a huge step up over today's capitalist controlled economy. Having the "freedom" to choose between 3 dozen different corn syrup cereals and a thousand different t-shirts but in exchange you can be homeless is worthless.

>>2689084
>having a baseline guarantee of shelter and food
Everybody loves prison! Do we also all need to eat the same meal? I'm asking as a veteran soup kitchen cook.
>is a huge step up over today's capitalist controlled economy
Considering not even "AES" countries can guarantee food and shelter, you mean?
>Having the "freedom" to choose between 3 dozen different corn syrup cereals and a thousand different t-shirts but in exchange you can be homeless
Great strawman considering no AES State has managed to guarantee food and shelter either. Would you also have a problem with just making blank t-shirts and providing the means for comrades to print whatever they want on them or would that be too antisocial?

>>2689237
meant to reply to
>>2689161

>>2689237
>Everybody loves prison!
Shelter and food = prison?
>Do we also all need to eat the same meal?
Not necessarily the same meal but meals people eat should have nutritional content that will keep them healthy as a basic requirement. Unless you think humanity just needs to create another 10,000 HFCS cereals first?
>Considering not even "AES" countries can guarantee food and shelter, you mean?
If Finland can get rid of homelessness then all AES could if they wanted. Also historically USSR made a good try at ending homelessness and hunger and did very well for it's citizens by the 70s. It is no longer technologically difficult to do but only politically hard to organize and keep sustained.
>Would you also have a problem with just making blank t-shirts and providing the means for comrades to print whatever they want on them or would that be too antisocial?
I don't see much problems for personal and small recreational fashion shows people do on their free time. But such resource allocations should come after basic clothing, shelter, food and healthcare is given to everyone. Unless you think select fashionistas deserve jewels, furs and silks while others go without shoes because personal expression or something?

>>2689250
>What you argue for is that everyone should work 8 h or longer so firms can make complex/laborous fashion items.
Stop strawmanning ffs I'm talking about something more along the lines of neighborhood tailoring and screenprinting workshops where people can make or modify their own clothing and print their own unique designs on it if they want to. This was a reply to the anon who was arguing in favor of compulsory uniforms, which wasn't even a thing in any AES state outside of labor/barracks/prison settings
>>2689265
>Shelter and food = prison?
If food and shelter are your only criteria for "socialism" yeah. Socialism is collective ownership of the means of production, not a stoic barracks-world.
>meals people eat should have nutritional content that will keep them healthy
Agreed, so let's only produce quality food and make sure people have the time and resources available to cook their own healthy meals and/or provide soup kitchens for collective meals and socializing.
>If Finland can get rid of homelessness then all AES could if they wanted.
> if they wanted.
lel
> USSR made a good try at ending homelessness and hunger and did very well for it's citizens by the 70s.
Wow only 50 years to do what just
>I don't see much problems for personal and small recreational fashion shows people do on their free time. But such resource allocations should come after basic clothing, shelter, food and healthcare is given to everyone.
Yeah exactly but without the paternalism. The workers themselves will decide what and how to produce, remember.
Perhaps I'm misreading but you guys don't seem to be able to conceive of socialism as a complete rupture with the dynamics of alienation.

>>2689486
>Wow only 50 years to do what just
(I forgot to finish my sentence here)
…eliminating private property and enabling people to freely and creatively construct for themselves with the material available would solve in less than a year.

>>2689119
What if I make my own clothes from trash

>>2689510
Non-sequitur cope

>>2689515
Based. I do this myself and haven't needed to buy an article of clothing in decades.

>>2686997
Are you the Chomsky left?

>>2689486
>>What you argue for is that everyone should work 8 h or longer so firms can make complex/laborous fashion items.
>Stop strawmanning
When people normally talk about fashion they are obviously referring to current fashion industry which is billions of dollars of pure waste. Just because you're some hippy who like diy clothes, that is not the norm when talking about fashion.
>This was a reply to the anon who was arguing in favor of compulsory uniforms
As a basic clothing choice a simple uniform should be the first option to be mass produced to streamline production. Producing cloth in the first place takes an industry but you're just looking at it from the fringes of society where low quality cloth has been overproduced by capitalists.
>not a stoic barracks-world.
My entire point is that is better than homelessness and poverty. But it seems you want to keep homelessness and poverty because telling people what to do is mean?
>Wow only 50 years to do what just
I'm not sure if you realize how much of a accomplishment that is. Essentially it took an accumulation of 10,000 years of civilized history finally leading to socialist country almost eliminating homelessness and extreme poverty for hundreds of millions of people. But of course some spoiled westerner doesn't think its a big deal…
> but without the paternalism.
If it solves the issue, it's good.
>>2689515
Only if it gets deloused and cleaned regularly so as not to spread disease. Question becomes will your trash clothes survive a simple cleaning process?

>>2689510
I'm pro-uniform as long as I get to wear a serafuku

>>2689833
> Just because you're some hippy who like diy clothes, that is not the norm when talking about fashion.
You're the only one talking about fashion, the rest of us just don't find the idea uniforms appealing. It's not a binary.
I'm going to stop replying to you because it's obvious you are a pathetic child with a Great Man complex. Hate to break it to you but you're not going to get anybody to do your bidding with such a drab utilitarian vision of "socialism".

>>2687076
Communism is workers acting in self-interest so I could say it's le individualism, buuut I'm not a retard like you so I don't boil down the real movement to this or that ideology. :)

>>2689873
>Great Man complex
Never once mentioned a great man and have only talked about streamlining the textile and fashion industries which you seem incapable of understanding.
>drab utilitarian vision of "socialism".
bro you actually admitted to thinking people wearing trash is good. I understand if people in poverty are forced to wear trash and try to make the best out of a bad situation. But to praise this situation as ideal and actively fight against people who want to give everyone quality clothes, basic shelter and nutritional food is insane. Maybe you should reassess your priorities.

Individualism isn't real, even capitalism is collectivist in operation. But i wouldn't call myself couragous for pointing that out, that'd be strange.

>>2689119
it does empirically not do this

>>2689150
posting theory that 100% validates my position. learn to read.

>>2687990
Even the sistah there looks white