/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

Real

Socialism is possible in the USA, it'll just be national socialism

>for socialism to have any future at all, America has to be the site of the next revolution
I'm actually gonna disagree OP. It would probably be enough for America to collapse and Balkanize, or at the very least be contained permanently in its own region. The destruction of US hegemony is I think a prerequisite for socialism, simply because its impossible for it to survive against a global bourgeoisie united under American rule. What is true however is that a socialist revolution in an intact America would effectively guarantee the supremacy of socialism globally.

>>2698242
Imperialist socialism is an oxymoron. Imperialism is a result of the laws of capitalist motion and development. These kinds of statements deny the actual economic foundations of imperialism and replace them with vulgar national chauvinism. America is an empire because all capitalist countries tend towards imperialism, and some of them outcompete others. The US just won out against the competition, mostly because they all destroyed each other in WW2.

>>2698243
if america has gotten to the point where its about to balkanize then socialist revolution is likely about to happen anyways

>>2698243
>the very least be contained permanently in its own region
An impossibility at this point. No parameters exist for this outcome.

>>2698250
Not necessarily. The present and most glaring contradiction right now is actually between the petty and haute bourgeoisie, rather than the bourgeoisie and proletariat. This is not to suggest that there isn't a stronger antagonism between the latter, but at the moment America has no serious worker's movement that could form the basis for a disintegration of the country or even take advantage of it. I think a chud vs lib (i.e. petty vs haute bourgeoisie) civil war or disintegration is much more likely at this point.

>>2698253
not at all, the american petit bourgeoisie has been eviscerated by neoliberalism and then even further by 2008, they are not a threatening force to the capitalists

>>2698256
What an insane statement to make. Are you even paying attention to US politics right now?

>>2698253
>The present and most glaring contradiction right now is actually between the petty and haute bourgeoisie
I very much disagree. The American proletariat are currently dealing with conditions changing to standards not seen since the gilded age. Employment is becoming more and more impossible while wages stagnate, and prices rise.
>>2698263
They are correct. What’s left of the petite bourgeoisie is an ever shrinking docile mess.

You will only get a revolution in american if they cannot eat burguers or watch anime/marvel movies anymore.

>Doomers and third-worldists have no answer for this
uh yes they do it's called nuclear proliferation

>>2698271
They'll just genocide someone else and turn them into burguers.

>>2698275
That’s not an answer
>>2698277
How would that even happen

>>2698231
The biggest problem Marxists have is they're atheist and scientific (which is correct) but they want people to become fanatics willing to sacrifice their own lives, and the lives of their friends and family, so a vague "other" can benefit in the future. That's the sort of mentality best served by religion and nationalism, but Marxists reject them. I'm guessing this is one reason people imagine if there's a big enough march in the capital then the powers that be would dissolve.

communism killed trillions

>>2698281
>That’s not an answer
Yes it is

>>2698285
>but they want people to become fanatics willing to sacrifice their own lives, and the lives of their friends and family, so a vague "other" can benefit in the future

People already do that for literally nothing. Wouldn’t be too much of an ask if we actually did that.
>That's the sort of mentality best served by religion and nationalism, but Marxists reject them
Someone’s angy they can’t larp as a theocratic nationalist, aren’t they?

>>2698290
An answer to question that doesn’t exist? Sure, why not.

>>2698294
The question was "how do we stop the US from crushing any country", well there's your answer

>>2698281
>How would that even happen

Now imagine a burguer.

>>2698299
>The question was "how do we stop the US from crushing any country
The question wasn’t present. There was a statement, the statement remains true. The third world won’t stop America’s imperialism. America will.

>>2698256
>not at all, the american petit bourgeoisie has been eviscerated by neoliberalism and then even further by 2008, they are not a threatening force to the capitalists
I'd consider Trump to be an attempt at a petty bourgeois coup tbh. It's a result of the GOP for decades courting the most reactionary segments of the middle class to form their base, but not doing enough to keep them out of the party leadership. The result is that they have become a highly influential force within the party and through that the nation as a whole. The actions of the Trump government that otherwise seem suicidal and self-destructive from the perspective of the big bourgeoisie (e.g. threatening to torpedo the Western alliance) can't really be explained otherwise.
>>2698265
>The American proletariat are currently dealing with conditions changing to standards not seen since the gilded age.
All true, but they have yet to develop organization or consciousness that would allow them to act as an independent political force.

>>2698242
People will really log onto leftypol and say anything

>>2698309
>I'd consider Trump to be an attempt at a petty bourgeois coup tbh

That was january 6th and it was a failiure, because they are weak as a political force.

>All true, but they have yet to develop organization or consciousness that would allow them to act as an independent political force
we are seeing the seeds of this begin, I'm seeing large ICE watch networks pop up, blocakeds where they check if a car is ICE, neighborhood committees, A tenant union in minneapolis was created and will have 10k people striking on march 1st, class concioussness is on the rise massively.

>>2698309
>All true, but they have yet to develop organization or consciousness that
So many people love to get their underwear in a twist about organization and consciousness. They don’t ask or bother to understand where consciousness and organization grow from. Their thinking always clams up when they start spattering about “what org will take advantage”?

These are the ideal conditions from where consciousness and organization sprouts from. And while there are no orgs to take advantage, there are plenty of class aware proles to take advantage and form consciousness. Organizations do not just pop into existence.

Nobody with a job is going to risk becoming homeless, it’s way easier to have a one man business on the side or to quietly quit and find a new job than it is to organize a union in this Taft Hartley environment.

The proletariat has millions of hours of distractions to keep them busy and divided, they’ll never be a revolutionary class again

>>2698326
more than 10000 people in minneapolis are about to rent strike over illegal immigrants. If theyll do it over that then theyll do it over stuff even greater

>>2698327
You live in a cave if you think this.

>>2698325
>These are the ideal conditions from where consciousness and organization sprouts from
I don't disagree, I'm just saying that until such organizatuon materializes the proletariat can't be either the cause or beneficiaries of any kind of disintegration or potential balkanization. What I should not however is how quickly organization can grow. It's important to remember that the Boksheviks were by far the most junior and fringe of the Russian socialists until the period after the February Revolution.

>>2698333
>I don't disagree, I'm just saying that until such organizatuon materializes the proletariat can't be either the cause or beneficiaries of any kind of disintegration or potential balkanization

You are correct, but I’m not particularly concerned about that. I’m more concerned about the likelihood of them taking advantage and forming their own organizations. And so far, I am liking the odds.

>>2698332
There are hundreds of axes you can divide proles on to keep them divided and conquered, gender, sexuality, ethnicity, language, what sector you work in

>>2698331
The US government could raze Minneapolis to the ground tomorrow and people would only post on twitter about it

>>2698353
if you think that then im sorry you're just out of touch or not a marxist or both. trump literally slightly pulled back the ICE presence due to all of the trouble from protesters.

>>2698351
And yet not only has many of those axes become blunted over time, the proletariat is wearing better equipment to counter those axes. And the bourgeoisie seem to have forgotten exactly how to properly sharpen said axes.

>>2698364
Gaza was a testing ground, they’re gonna do the same thing to American cities, Cop City in Atlanta is basically an IDF base. The world showed they don’t care about genocide.

>>2698368
They don’t have to, they can just rule with brute force

>>2698373
They would rule poorly, and not for very long.

>>2698373
Thats basically how the tsars tried to rule, with brute force and it just led to all of their forces becoming disloyal

>>2698383
The Tsar didn’t have netflix and hot sauce and forums to complain on, give those tsarist officers twitter and they never turn

>>2698379
They already rule poorly and nothing’s happened

>>2698389
That isn’t pure brute at work. And we haven’t even hit the bottom yet.

>>2698395
There is no such thing as rock bottom

>>2698397
Debatable. But the point is that they can go lower.

>>2698401
Of course they can, and until there’s no internet and no electricity and no food nobody’s doing shit

>>2698404
That won’t be too long now

>>2698406
I’ll believe it when I can’t go into work

>>2698424
Behind the curve it is

>>2698231
>The post war 20th century taught us that every third world revolution will just get immediately crushed by US imperialism
USA empire is crumbling so this is becoming less and less of an issue.

But the average american would rather blast the brains out of children than ever turn their guns towards the pedophilic elite. In fact even if those elite were actively raping their "aryan" daughters, they would still shoot the daughter!

>>2698231
>if you think revolution is impossible in the USA then you're not a marxist
I've never agreed with something more

>>2698437
I'd rather blast thick ropes into your mom's gash.

>>2698427
The bombs haven’t dropped yet

We live in a post revolutionary era, get your thick skulls around that, you’re never overthrowing a government ever again

>>2698449
yes we know you're not a marxist

>>2698453
Neither was Marx, which is good because Marxists suck

>>2698305
No, nuclear threat will, and has, stopped American imperialism in, for example, North Korea, pretty evidently.

>>2698449
Such a statement can't be proved

>>2698622
Literally every revolution in the 21st century has been a CIA backed color revolution with the exception of Nepal in 2006 which was Maoists turning to liberal opportunism anyway

>>2698231
if american can have a revolution then so can the rest of the world. so I do hope for a revolution as hopeless as it may seem

>>2698804
it's called counter-revolutionary science, and it works. tough titties until revolutionary science makes a comprehensive breakthrough.

>>2698809
Nobody is getting a pell grant or getting sponsored for revolutionary science, least of all the Chinese who would on the surface have reason to

>>2698449
as long as capitalism exists there will be crisis and as long as crisis exists there will be revolutionary potential. No matter how sophisticated the technology, if capitalism can't stablize itself through either fascism or bonpartism then any attempt to rule by brute force will just be more destabilizing

>>2698827
Capitalism thrives off crises and use them to destabilize and reorganize itself to keep its rule fresh and adaptive in ways feudalism, slavery, and oriental could never be. There’s always a new Dutch tulip to gamble on, and you can always declare a new frontier, especially as climate change makes the Arctic region of the world the new agricultural breadbasket.

>>2698823
it'll be a mechanical materialist breakthrough which is exactly what the Hegelians, lawyers, mutual AIDS-victims, smashies, and Proudhonist-vanguardist-socialists don't want.

>>2698856
Do you have a pdf of this by chance? I at least want to skim it

>>2698231
>for socialism to have any future at all, America has to be the site of the next revolution
Nah.
>The post war 20th century taught us that every third world revolution will just get immediately crushed by US imperialism and the last revolutionary remnants in cuba and venzuela are being suffocated. Doomers and third-worldists have no answer for this
Please read a history book. Imperialists tried to crush every revolution, the difference is that revolutionary organizations were stronger. What we see today is that revolutionary movement creation is disrupted and all the people who would otherwise be communist supporters get used by glowie lapdogs.
Most communist supporters weren't terribly conscious historically. They saw virtuous patriotic people in a world of landlords, warlords and bourgeois who kicked them in the gut over and over. Not very different from today's world.
I don't think american workers are especially reactionary or incapable of revolution. There are many problems they'd have to overcome before there's a strong revolutionary movement. But that goes for us all.
I agree with most of what you said but one point needs to be corrected.
>If Somehow the bolsheviks were able to convince highly religious and reactionary russian workers to support them then american workers will be easy.
Reaction isn't one big scale. A person may be religious and hate the jews a lot and also may hit his wife and children every day but he can still despise his kulak neighbor who took the good land and those merchants who raise the prices every time he visits the town. Russian peasants may have not been lgbtq+ inclusive but they were going through the process of primitive accumulation that was stripping them of their land and livelihood and they were materially opposed to the emerging rural bourgeois. American petty bourgeois have already lived in their system for 250 years and so even if they're also fucked over, the class relations of capitalism are already ones they know and love as their mother who gave them life in the first place. That's reflected in America's gushing adoration for "mom and pop shops". Not even leftists over there can denounce those capitalist relations because it's such a beloved part of culture. But capital itself is working on getting rid of that.
>>2698243
>would probably be enough for America to collapse and Balkanize
That's never happening.
>or at the very least be contained permanently in its own region
Also not happening. There is no geographic feature that could be used to contain america.
>The destruction of US hegemony is I think a prerequisite for socialism, simply because its impossible for it to survive against a global bourgeoisie united under American rule.
But that's not the problem we're seeing. Revolutionary movements fail to get off the ground in any fashion, they're not ruthlessly crushed by imperialist intervention. Korean or vietnamese wars were enormously more expensive compared to current american ventures too and the people prevailed anyway.

>>2698957
>That's reflected in America's gushing adoration for "mom and pop shops". Not even leftists over there can denounce those capitalist relations because it's such a beloved part of culture
The video in >>>/tech/32485 is a great example. The ending is so bizarre if you don't keep that in mind.

>>2698957
All remaining revolutionary governments from the 20th century are either isolated pariah states or were forced into capitalist restoration. Even vietnam had capitalist restoration despite them being able to fight off american imperialism, because there can be no socialism in one country. The combined forces of global capital will descend upon any isolated third world revolution the moment it springs up, even if it may not be direct military intervention, it could be sanctions and diplomatic isolation. The head of global capital has to be cut off first or else we will get nowhere. Then a socialist america could aid all the third-world revolutions against China and russia who will be remaining imperialist hegemons.

>>2699006

it does seem like if the power of the american government transformed to socialism it would be a major boost to international socialism……?

>>2699011
exactly, imagine all of the wealth of the american bourgoeisie seized and nationalized by the workers, imagine how powerful the american workers state would be. and with american capital out of the picture, bourgeoise governments around the world would fall like dominoes

Its not impossible the illusion the us state has a deep security spparatus is intertia from back when it could afford it. Reality will set in in the near future the us is broke and cant afford to protect itself snd then itll be disorganized chaos from inside the boarder and across it.

>>2699066
It's the workers that are "broke", the US is far from being broke.

>>2699071
Its debt is now unpayable. Tge state is cutting military benefits and relying on volunteers for ice. It doesnt matter how wealthy the upper 20% are they wont pay for it.