[ home / rules / faq / search ] [ overboard / sfw / alt ] [ leftypol / edu / labor / siberia / lgbt / latam / hobby / tech / games / anime / music / draw / AKM / ufo ] [ meta ] [ wiki / shop / tv / tiktok / twitter / patreon ] [ GET / ref / marx / booru ]

/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internet about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
Name
Options
Subject
Comment
Flag
File
Embed
Password(For file deletion.)

Check out our new store at shop.leftypol.org!


File: 1771997410376.png (2.17 MB, 1124x2000, ClipboardImage.png)

 

I just finished reading The Structure of Scientific Revolutions (1962) by Thomas S. Khun and it struck me as one of those instances of a non-Communist person being dialectical materialist on accident. I actually don't know what his attitudes towards Communism was, but since he was born in the USA and spent almost his entire adult life in the Cold War, I assume it wasn't good. But nevertheless, I found this to be a very intriguing but short book (he calls it an essay) which analyzes science not as a static teleological method based on making falsifiable conjectures and attempting to refute them through experiments (as with Popper) but as a continually evolving and socially constructed human enterprise based on changing paradigms, which continually rewrites and simplifies its own history in order to abridge the process of raising and training new generations of scientists. Science continually subdivides into new fields, and old paradigms are continually replaced with new paradigms through the process of crisis formation and resolution. Old theories are abandoned, and the very process of raising and training a new generation of scientists in a given field introduces only the current dominant paradigm and its main problem/solution methodologies (called "normal" science) to avoid burdening the student with the entire historical background. But as scientists engage in experimentation, they uncover anomalies which the dominant paradigm cannot explain. At first this is fine, because paradigms reign as long as dominant theories are able to explain most phenomena encountered in daily work. Anomalies are just treated as mop up work for normal science. But as anomalies accumulate there is crisis formation and entire paradigms get called into question, leading to scientific revolution. He compares this to social and political revolution and it reminds me of the whole Scientific Socialist thing about the transformation of quantitative changes into qualitative changes. I'm probably explaining it poorly but I'm wondering if anyone else here has read this book and gotten anything out of it, or maybe even if you thought it was trash, say why.

He was not a Marxist, and yet the trot site marxists.org keeps an entry on him, and one of the chapters of the book. So yeah, he does have that marxist-adjacent energy at least to some extent.
https://www.marxists.org/glossary/people/k/u.htm
https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/philosophy/works/us/kuhn.htm

>>2703553
It's a dialectical understanding of science for sure. The two opposites are old theories and new theories, that is dogmatist scientists entrenched in their old ways, resistant to change and new theories and scientists promoting new theories. In the process of science anomalies arise, anomalies which cannot be explained by the old theories. Ad hoc explanations are invented to explain these anomalies to defend the old theories. But eventually, there are too many anomalies and they can't all be explained by the old theory, so a revolution happens where the new theory supplants the old one. This is dialectics: small quantitative changes lead to qualitative change.

File: 1772006815429.png (16.69 KB, 447x447, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2703553
Hey buddy i think (You) got the wrong board. /edu/ is two blocks down

angloslop, its ok-ish but still angloslop at the end of the day

>>2703655
that board is dead
this site just doesn't have enough users to have so many boards, it should have 3 or 4 max

>>2703786
you dare question the mods? you have the audacity to say their fiefdom should be smaller?! for shame.

Popper, Kuhn and Lakatos are hot garbage.

>>2703799
specially p*pper
more like pooper am i right

>>2703799
obviously popper is garbage but what's the problem with kuhn? elaborate

>>2704025
you anglo animals will read all kinds of garbage except Marx Engels and Lenin

>>2704028
I've read Marx, Engels and Lenin. I'm just asking you why you think Kuhn is wrong. Also I'm Irish not Anglo? I'm just asking for your thoughts. No need to be so emotional.

>>2703799
>Lakatos
never even heard of him

>>2703655
the only guy who posts on >>>/edu/ regularly is some unironic Nazi guy.

>>2704038
because you are a yank baboon who spends time on breadtube faggotry

>>2704034
>ive read marx engels and lenin
you read. that is very good. you have to try to understand them now.
read marx engels and lenin again, irishman.

>>2704045
OK there are plenty of threads for that. Can you elaborate on your negative assessment of Kuhn for me? I'm more interested in that.

>>2704043
But you just said Lakatos was garbage. Now you are saying I should know who he is? Which is it? I think you are trolling. Do you come here often? I am not a yank.

>>2704051
>>2704049
>>2704038

If Popper = Thesis and Kuhn = Antithesis, then Lakatos = Synthesis

Karl Popper wrote the The Logic of Scientific Discovery, which proposed that what separated science from pseudoscience as whether the discipline actually makes predictions that can be proven wrong, and whether it changes its own rules when it observes exceptions to those rules.

Well, Thomas Kuhn came along and wrote The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, which argued that not all scientific theories were equally falsifiable. Kuhn argued that science actually tolerated a lot of anomalous observations without actually rejecting the discipline's own paradigms or models. In Kuhn's view, scientists performed "normal science" by accumulating knowledge under an established paradigm, including tolerating observed anomalies, until someone (not necessarily an individual, but possibly several research teams or institutions) would have to come along and use the accumulated anomalies to actually propose something revolutionary that breaks a lot of previous models, and throws away a lot of the work that came before, in a scientific revolution. Naturally throwing away past work gets a lot of resistance from established scientists. Under Kuhn's description, science is quite conservative and resistant to criticism or falsifiability under the "normal science" periods, even if it accepts that revolutions are occasionally necessary.

The prominent example was that Mercury's orbit didn't quite fit Newton's theory of gravity, and astronomers and physicists kept trying to rework the formula on the edges without actually challenging the core paradigm. For decades, astronomers simply shrugged their shoulders and said that they knew that the motion of Mercury tended to drift from the predictive model, but they didn't have anything better to turn to, if they were to reject Newtonian gravity. It wasn't until Einstein's general relativity that scientists did have something better, and learning that Einstein's theory works even when near a large gravity well was revolutionary.

Others include the phlogiston theory of combustion that persisted for a bit even after it was measured that combustion of metallic elements increased the mass of the resulting burned stuff, as if phlogiston had negative mass.

Imre Lakatos tried to bridge the ideas of Popper and Kuhn, by observing that each discipline had their own "Research Programs" that weren't necessarily compatible with others in their own field. Quantum physics was aware of cosmology/relativity, and it didn't much matter that these two sets of theories and research methods had different scopes, and contradicted each other at times. But each Research Program had its own "hard core" that was not subject to questioning or challenge, while most scientists did the work in the "protective belt" around that core. And even when a particular Research Program gets battered by a series of contradictory observations, it's perfectly rational for scientists in that field to rally in defense of that hard core to see if it can be revived, at least for a time until that defense becomes untenable. In a sense, Lakatos described the fields where Kuhn's "normal science" and "revolutionary science" actually happened, and how Popper's falsifiability criterion fit into each space.

Paul Feyerabend also added a lot of color to these theories, too. He described the tenacity of ideas as being driven by more than simple falsifiability, but also of just how attractive of an idea it was. In his descriptions, ideas basically fought for popularity on many different metrics, and the sterile ideas of falsifiability didn't actually account for how ideas compete in the marketplace, even among allegedly rational scientists.

I think the individual yelling at you ITT for not reading Marx, Engels, and Lenin is a well known troll around these parts and should be filtered by trip and ignored. He likes to terrorize the Americans in their thread, which is very funny, but also a big waste of his time and everyone else's. He is probably an alcoholic or drug addict and possibly American himself.

>>2704064
Wrong. You are imperialist. You are zionist. You are bourgeois. Only Marxism-Leninism is science. True immortal science is Marxism-Leninism. Popper, Kuhn, and Lakatos were all Bourgeois Imperialist Zionist (BIZ) like you. Marx was scientist. Engels was scientist. Lenin was scientist. Stalin was scientist. Lysenko was scientist. They were proletarian. Only proletarian science truly scientific. Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Einstein, Hooke, Darwin, Lovelace, Mendel, Pasteur, Freud, Tesla, Curie, Bohr, Turing, and so forth were all BIZ pigs like you. You slander proletariat by your very existence.

File: 1772042397332.png (87.57 KB, 500x500, all edge no point.png)

>>2704105
LARPing lib wrecker

>>2704111
Wrong. This anti-proletarian liberal thread. This marketplace of idealism bourgeois nonsense thread. You are bourgeois imperialist zionist. Popper, Kuh, Lakatos, and Feyerabend were all fascist butchers of the proletariat, like Einsten and Newton.

File: 1772042722020-0.png (251.89 KB, 598x834, ClipboardImage.png)

File: 1772042722020-1.png (173.88 KB, 613x635, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2704105
Deng won, ultras lost

>>2704105
>Einstein
pretty sure he was socialist. but he was also offered presidency of israel and lived in the USA so I guess it's a mixed legacy.

>>2704051
Lakatos is garbage because he was anticommunist and he formulated his 'philosophy of science' pseudofaggotry explicitly on anti-marxist grounds

Popper, Kuhn and Lakatos are pebbles
Marx Engels and Lenin are the Himalayas

>>2704064
Funny how you hold thesd pseudointellectuals in such high regard.
They are midwits. Nothing of value.
Anything they say, the average man has thought for himself using much simpler language.
Also funny how you think of me as a troll. Everything I say is my honest thought. You are left-imperialist.

>>2704194
>>2704197
Anon never stated he held any of these individuals in high regard, although he is the only quality reply in this thread so far that bothered to explain anything. We are no closer to understanding why you think they were wrong other than the fact that you have declared them anticommunist. It is very easy to declare someone anticommunist, it requires more work to explain why they are wrong. If an anticommunist says 1+1=2, do you disagree on the grounds that they are anticommunist, or do you concede that they are correct on that particular point despite your political differences? It seems that some of the "Communists" on /leftypol/ have lost the ability to think critically…

>>2704207
The fact that he accorded a high-quality post to flies like Lakatos, Kuhn etc proves that he holds them in high regard. Low-quality 'thinkers' deserve low quality posts.

>>2704213
The German ideology was written against Stirner.

The Proletarian Revolution and the Renegade Kautsky was written against Kautsky.

I am still not hearing why Kuhn is mistaken. My ears are open yet all that hits them smelly wind from a windbag.

>>2704064
>If Popper = Thesis and Kuhn = Antithesis, then Lakatos = Synthesis
dumb. this anon (me) >>2703560 wrote the only decent post in this thread, btw.

>>2704313
Only the 3rd chapter is against Stirner. (most people only read the first chapter.)


Unique IPs: 15

[Return][Go to top] [Catalog] | [Home][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[ home / rules / faq / search ] [ overboard / sfw / alt ] [ leftypol / edu / labor / siberia / lgbt / latam / hobby / tech / games / anime / music / draw / AKM / ufo ] [ meta ] [ wiki / shop / tv / tiktok / twitter / patreon ] [ GET / ref / marx / booru ]