/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

There must've someone who suffered a worse punishment who nobody remembers because they were considered irrelevant.

I do not feel bad for either. Socrates deserved it for being an anti-democracy reactionary. Jesus deserved it for being a religious figure.

Jesus died a far more painful death and was killed for opposing Roman imperialism and its Jewish collaborators. He was also a kind of utopian socialist similar to the Diggers whereas Socrates was an anti-democracy reactionary. Any communist should have more sympathy for Jesus.
>>2706051
Secularism was practically unheard of in the ancient world. Everybody was religious to some extent and this was deeply intertwined with their lives.

>>2706061
also socrates really played the trolling shitposter until the end and refused all the off ramps, while jesus was marked for death for being a political threat
socrate was more gangsta though, although he could have chosen his last words better

>>2706061
>Jesus died a far more painful death and was killed for opposing Roman imperialism and its Jewish collaborators. He was also a kind of utopian socialist similar to the Diggers

the text I have bolded is an ahistorical narrative projected backwards onto history. Jesus, the historical Jesus, assuming he existed, was much more of a "centrist" in the political arena he operated in. during the life of historical jesus there were 5 sects of judaism: pharisees, sadducees, zealots, essenes, and early christians. You had actual violent rebels among the zealots and essenes, while the early Christians were even less likely than the pharisees to promote armed revolt against the Romans. Perhaps only the Sadducees were more collaborationist than the early Christians. Jesus said pay your taxes, fear your master with trembling, and await rewards for your faith in heaven, rather than trying to change the world around you. His actions against the money lenders were not really against the Roman authorities but against the corruption within second temple judaism.

>>2706049
This is basically what F/SN's interpretation of Angra Mainyu represents.

>>2706095
Clearly the Romans, or at least their local collaborators, saw him as enough of a threat that he needed to be executed.

>>2706051
>Socrates deserved it for being an anti-democracy reactionary
if it wasn't for western democracy we would already be at world communism, he did nothing wrong, you are the actual reactionary
if anything he deserved it for the official reasons: being annoying (dialectical)

There goes not one single day where marxists don't do apologism for the "civilizatory" movement and system that culminated in the destruction of the communist movement at home and abroad last century by calling it "historically progressive" while denouncing those who didn't care for it as "reactionary" or "undialectical".
Sad!

>>2706105
or perhaps, the more radical sects like the zealots and the essenes wanted to show that even pacifists will get executed by the occupiers, while the more collaborationist sects like the pharisees and sadducees wanted to get rid of a nuisance who was theologically an oddball but not that politically radical.

>>2706130
come back mr. spookbuster

socrates is the father of all western philosophy, which also means the father of all western and muslim science
jesus is the father of the biggest and most totalitarian organization that ever existed which oppressed everyone in and around europe for thousands of years, provided the ideological justification for the social hierarchy and justified mass slaughter and genocide

if you feel bad for socrates or christ then frankly you don’t understand anything about their philosophy

socrates actually has proof for his existence, the "historical jesus" is derived from mythological texts, then argued backwards with theological writing

>>2706223
This. I often wonder if, and how, capitalism and colonialism might have differed had it emerged elsewhere, with the character of a different belief system trying to justify it. Christianity is particularly well suited to justifying atrocities (not that this is unique) and I wonder what style of differences we'd see had it been Islam or Buddhism or something else as the dominant religion where capitalism first emerged. Even between protestants and catholics there were some differences in the methods employed by colonizers.

As it stands, if it were possible to punish Jesus proportionately for the harm his followers caused, he'd need to be crucified about a billion times.

>>2706223
no religion has as much blood on its hands as christianity does, no religion parallels it in terms of brutality, destruction of local culture, and cognitive enslavement. to beg us to defend it because of its vague "equality" (itself no different to the cynics, who were aristocrats who engaged in "simple living) are asking us to pretend it was some outside force, not the root of the cancerous religion itself

>>2706046
>Bullied into suicide for not being a retard
why is he literally me

>>2706247
>asking us to pretend it was some outside force
But it was. To think that religion has power independent of class forces is idealism. Christianity was just a post-hoc justification for the material interests behind colonialism, just as it was (in many cases) the post-hoc justification for the material interests behind those resisting it. If Christianity could motivate both Nat Turner and Robert E. Lee then clearly the religion itself is not the decisive factor.

>>2706130
Another example of what I'm saying lol. For those who don't know NCR is the equivalent of the US and western democracy: the historical executioner of the communist movement, both structurally and militarily. But as you can see, people simp for it as the best chance for communism because of uhhh… "dialectics" I guess?
Athenian democracy = NATO in embryonic form. If you think Socrates was in the wrong for opposing it you are a cuck unless you are an anti-Communist (and pro-slavery, but I guess it was "historically progressive" slavery o algo).

>>2706223
Trvke, idc if Socrates was anti-democracy, the "democracy" of his time excluded slaves and women and forced him to commit suicide just for being annoying, he was right

>>2706373
>the equivalent of the US and western democracy: the historical executioner of the communist movement
It also smashed feudalism and created the conditions that allowed communism to become possible in the first place.
>because of uhhh… "dialectics" I guess?
Literally yes. Every social order sets the stage for itself to be superseded. Every class society gives birth to its own grave diggers. Without the bourgeoisie and the bourgeois revolution, there is no proletariat. Without the proletariat there is no communism. Social formations appear, exhaust their historical purpose, and are supplanted.
>Athenian democracy = NATO in embryonic form
Nonsensical statement. Athens wasn't even capitalist society, and by the standards of wider Mediterranean politics wasn't even a major power.
>If you think Socrates was in the wrong for opposing it you are a cuck
He opposed it because he thought aristocrats were inherently better than everybody else and commoners shouldn't have any authority over them. Whatever objections you might have to Athens or Greek democracy in general, Socrates' reason for opposing it was because it wasn't reactionary enough for him.

>>2706380
>the "democracy" of his time excluded slaves and women
Socrates opposed it because he didn't think it excluded enough people.

>>2706389
>It also smashed feudalism and created the conditions that allowed communism to become possible in the first place.
Creating a mere posibility is worthless, its literally less than air, and primitive communism existed before too. Call me when world communism actually grows out of it and becomes a reality. (If you haven't noticed, the communist movement is at is absolute historical weakest around the world. If anything feudal or semi-feudal states historically have worked way better as a breeding ground for it, and western democracies still destroyed them or forced them to capitulate)
>Literally yes. Every social order sets the stage for itself to be superseded. Every class society gives birth to its own grave diggers
This is literally just a more intellectually dignified version of the "two more weeks" meme.
>Nonsensical statement.
NATO is just a bunch of western democracies, athenian democracy is the prototype of that and the foundation of western civilization, where the communist movement has done nothing but wither away.
>He opposed it because he thought
It only matters that he opposed it and was considered enough of a problem to it that he was sentenced to death because of it. He was more of a problem to class society than many communist parties today, even if it was for the wrong reasons.

CIA: *kills all communists around the world while Capital devours the planet*

dialecticope addicts: wow, this is the most historically progressive thing I have seen in my life, capitalism is fucking COOKED… the bourgeoisie can't help but to dig its own grave! thank god Capital saved us from feudalism! feels good not being an utopian retard…

Socrates because Christians are slightly more annoying

>>2706061
> Secularism was practically unheard of in the ancient world
I question the historicity of Socrates as a secular figure. He seems at most a heretic.

>>2706416
>Creating a mere posibility is worthless
That's like saying we shouldn't build foundations because a foundation is not yet a house. We shouldn't plough fields because ploughed fields are not bread. Creating the possibility is not worthless when that possibility did not exist before.
>NATO is just a bunch of western democracies, athenian democracy is the prototype of that and the foundation of western civilization
It was not a prototype of anything. It was a completely different society governed by completely different social relations. It doesn't even share the same mode of production. The idea that Athens and Greek society was "the foundation of Western civilization" is a narrative conjured up during the Enlightenment. It's not actually true.
>It only matters that he opposed it and was considered enough of a problem to it that he was sentenced to death because of it
By that logic you should be buddies with skin heads who oppose liberal democracy because it isn't racist enough.

>>2706301
yeah christianity did grow out of these material conditions, but not of the poor, but of the wealthy, greek jews like paul and many others described in his epistles, this religion gained strength because of that, and your example of nat turner and robert e. lee only really makes sense if you forget that this wasn't the prime motivator for lee, and in nat turner's case he could only speak through christianity, in there there may very well be something you could turn into an emancipatory ideology, yet such a doctrine hardly caught on, since liberalism not long after changed the words of these men, frederick douglass for example was a christian himself, but he did not speak through the words of christianity to justify that slavery was unacceptable, he spoke through the liberal lens, as he had managed to be educated in ideas other than it

>>2706533
>your example of nat turner and robert e. lee only really makes sense if you forget that this wasn't the prime motivator for lee, and in nat turner's case he could only speak through christianity
That's my point though. I don't think it was the prime motivator of either of them, and it was simultaneously the language through which virtually all politics was conducted at the time.

>>2706539
in the US? yeah sure, but an enslaved man may speak in christianity because his slavemasters do, a slavemaster speaks of it because it represents power, i get that this is what you're saying but the religion itself has grown 9/10 to support the worst oppressive structures, and in the rare case it doesn't (like with john brown or whichever instance you can conjure up), it is crushed by those that do